18 comments on “Timmy elsewhere

  1. More important, it would prevent thousands of deaths and improve the quality of life among those who now must wait years before getting the organs they need. Initially, a market in the purchase and sale of organs would seem strange, and many might continue to consider that market “repugnant.” Over time, however, the sale of organs would grow to be accepted, just as the voluntary military now has widespread support.

    As we have seen with abortion, gay rights, divorce and now gambling. Personally I would have thought this is a reason to be against selling organs. The idea that we can blithely go ahead and fundamentally change what most people think of as right and wrong with no other effects on society is naive in the extreme. The consequence of Gay rights (a small change if ever there was one) was having Christians arrested for saying that Jesus doesn’t like Gays. Not to mention B&B owners being persecuted out of business. The changes to abortion and divorce have seen marriage rates collapse, abandoned and neglected babies go up and the general collapse of working class society.

    Who knows what selling organs will do? I would suggest the sensible thing is not to find out the hard way. It is, after all, much easier to turn an aquarium of fish into fish soup than fish soup into an aquarium of fish.

  2. The persecuting Christians thing (which is basically now being allowed to get on with our lives and enjoy Christians) is however just a cyclical thing.

    The Christians were last seriously persecuted during the Roman era. Then they took over Rome, and we had >1000 years of Christians going around persecuting those who didn’t toe the line, you know, witches, gays, shopkeepers who open on Sunday because apparently opening a shop on Sunday is like driving the nails into baby Jesus’ hands, or something. Some of them still indulge in some of this (especially the latter).

    So now the Christians are getting some of it back (or so they think) by having to tolerate people doing things in private that they disapprove of. Oh the pain. Don’t worry, you will get rewards heaped up in Heaven for your suffering in this vale of tears.

  3. bloke in germany – “Then they took over Rome, and we had >1000 years of Christians going around persecuting those who didn’t toe the line”

    That may be true. It may not be. What it isn’t is relevant. As those of us, or more accurately you, who want a liberal society want a society where no one is persecuted. Not even Christians. Not a society where some random group of people who have never been affected by Christians in any way whatsoever gets to persecute some other random group of people who have never persecuted anyone in any way whatsoever just because of some bogus made-up grievance based on what was supposed to have happened 1000 years ago.

    That sort of thing is called a Blood Libel and most sensible people stay away from them. As you should know, living where you do.

    We can all agree no one alive today, outside of Africa, has ever burnt a witch to death. And so, consequently, no one alive today deserves to be punished for it.

  4. There’s one big problem with setting a market price of a kidney in the UK at £20K. Given the seller would presumably need the money, they wouldn’t receive it. £20K puts them over the savings limit for benefit claims. The State would effectively get it.

  5. Christians aren’t persecuted by other people getting on and living their lives. They aren’t even persecuted by people ribbing them – and you’ll notice that tends to be reserved for those who go around ramming Christianity down our throats at every opportunity.

    Sure, I don’t blame you for witch burnings, it is merely illustrative of what your doctrine is capable of given an environment in which it can thrive and take over, rather than one in which it can wither away to a collection of odd little old ladies in half-empty churches and teenage zealots at the Christian Union.

    I think the witch burnings somewhere we don’t want to go back to and we don’t reduce the chances of going back there by giving one group of followers of one particular deity a special say in how we run the place. They can be guided by their conscience at the ballot box like the rest of us.

  6. Reckon you’re on a hiding to nothing with that, James. Christianity, like socialism, defines all that’s good in the world, to its adherents. The argument’s unwinnable within the mindset.

  7. @bis

    “£20K puts them over the savings limit for benefit claims. The State would effectively get it.”

    Isn’t the corollary also true? See also – payment in lieu of community service or portions of gaol time.

    Modern Britain, where being poor costs an arm and a leg.

  8. The usual objection is that the poor would find themselves flogging their organs out of desperation. Not being an ultra-libertarian I’m not sure this is a good state of affairs. What’s the answer to this objection?

  9. That if you think you need 20k more than you need a kidney you have a screw loose? Anyone who does this for such a pathetic reward is by definition mentally incompetent to consent to the procedure.

  10. …and probably full of nasty viruses, some of them not yet known to the world of medicine, that you aren’t all that keen on exposing transplant recipients to.

  11. @BiG, a lot of poor people are fucking dense and prone to exploitation (which is often why they’re poor – they differ from the thick rich by their not having wealthy parents). Im not sure they’re as astute at cost benefit analyses as most of us.

  12. bloke in germany – “Christians aren’t persecuted by other people getting on and living their lives.”

    I agree. Which simply shows the utter irrelevance of your comments. They are persecuted by being arrested for stating, politely, what they think in a public place. They are persecuted when actvists target them and drive them out of business in order to intimidate the rest of us.

    “They aren’t even persecuted by people ribbing them – and you’ll notice that tends to be reserved for those who go around ramming Christianity down our throats at every opportunity.”

    Well no. There is a wholesale dislike of Christians and Christianity in the modern West. No matter what Christians do or do not do, they will be slandered in a way that would be unacceptable for, say, Jews. They are a safe target. For Gays as well as atheists who lack the courage to have a go at Muslims.

    “Sure, I don’t blame you for witch burnings, it is merely illustrative of what your doctrine is capable of given an environment in which it can thrive and take over, rather than one in which it can wither away to a collection of odd little old ladies in half-empty churches and teenage zealots at the Christian Union.”

    My doctrine? Where have I even hinted what I believe? You assume. On top of continuing with your irrelevance. I am sure that most doctrines can evolve into nasty directions. Although I am a little sympathetic to this one every time I read a horoscope. But the fact is Christians are not persecuting anyone. Gays are.

    “I think the witch burnings somewhere we don’t want to go back to and we don’t reduce the chances of going back there by giving one group of followers of one particular deity a special say in how we run the place. They can be guided by their conscience at the ballot box like the rest of us.”

    And you will notice I no where suggested that the followers of any particular diety should be given a special say in how we run the place. So well done on continuing with the utter irrelevance of your comments. A content level of roughly zero.

  13. bloke in germany – “That if you think you need 20k more than you need a kidney you have a screw loose? Anyone who does this for such a pathetic reward is by definition mentally incompetent to consent to the procedure.”

    Which is pretty much what I think of hard drug users. No doubt there are many who would take this offer if it meant 20k of hard drugs.

    However what I think is that there are any number of people in Britain who need 20k more than they need their girlfriend’s kidney. There are no end of naive trusting mentally slow women in Britain who are perfectly capable of being hunted down and manipulated by the sort of men who would otherwise be pushing them into the prostitution industry.

    But hey, free adults in a free economy, right?

  14. What a sick suggestion! Still that other great libertarian, Murray Rothbard, suggested parents should be allowed to sell their children. And let them die of neglect.

  15. DBC Reed – “What a sick suggestion! Still that other great libertarian, Murray Rothbard, suggested parents should be allowed to sell their children. And let them die of neglect.”

    We all have an interesting in making sure children move from parents who don’t want them to parents who do. At least Rothbard is willing to consider how to do that. It isn’t sick. Just naive.

    Mind you, this could be an easy way to re-introduce slavery. Person A buys *both* Person B’s kidneys. And suggests that he start picking cotton or he will collect.

    bloke in germany – “Must. Stop. Feeding. The troll.”

    Keep telling yourself that sweetheart. We both know it ain’t true.

    You jumped in with an asinine comment because you’re still butthurt about something else I said weeks ago. So fast to get your cliche’ed little comment that passed for profound thought in some parts of the world, that you did not stop to check what it is I said. That is the problem with not thinking for yourself.

    But as you say, I should stop feeding the troll.

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