20 comments on “Yes, obviously

  1. As usual, the comments are a scream.

    Have a good idea? Expect rational discussion?

    Not on CiF. The usual mixture of “but you CAN’T say things like that!!!” (yes, dear, you can. I think you are confusing it with “should”), fawning agreement, and blind espousing of the usual leftist tripe. And the odd troll or two.

    Loved this from JoannaDark:

    If you and the myriad others who spout this tiresome “pseudo-intellectual things college students say to get laid” stuff *actually thought* humans were such a cancer on the Earth, then you would kill yourself and as many other people as you can. Why don’t you?

  2. Surreptitious Evil – “Loved this from JoannaDark:

    If you and the myriad others who spout this tiresome “pseudo-intellectual things college students say to get laid” stuff *actually thought* humans were such a cancer on the Earth, then you would kill yourself and as many other people as you can. Why don’t you?”

    Not a good idea to encourage them. See Twelve Monkeys

    I have always thought that it would be a good idea to buy as many African elephants as possible and releasing them in Australia. They are unlikely to become the next cane toads. Too big and slow to breed. They would like a lot of the empty bits. Then you could charge people to shoot them.

  3. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Etiher:
    (i) don’t farm them. Prices skyrocket, animals go extinct.
    (ii) farm them. Prices drop, people get all the ivory they want (as long as they can afford it – but it costs less now) and we end up with more animals.

    But we can’t possibly farm them – that would be wrong!

    (I do wonder sometimes if lefties have issues with logic and rational thinking…)

  4. Next question? How do you save wild elephants? And what do we do about the fact that elephants are a bit close to our end of the intelligence scale for comfort?

  5. Julia>

    Hoho. But you’re really stretching my phrasing in order to make that very weak joke.

    Our studies have shown that elephants are (at least in human terms) some of the most intelligent animals on the planet. They are said to have self-awareness, they can count, perform basic arithmetic, and (aside from myths about never forgetting) have very good memories – they can not only feel emotional pain, but remember it.

    You can do whatever you like to yeast; you can kill cows for food as long as you do it humanely; you’re not allowed to kill other humans. Where do elephants fit in? At what point does farming turn into slavery? Elephants are towards the end of the scale where we have to start asking ourselves some tricky questions.

  6. Until they can ask us to stop killing them, I suspect they will remain fair game. You only have to look at what people do to other people with relative impunity in some parts of the world to realise that rights for animals (no matter how smart) is a long long way off.

  7. Ranches for the rhino really is a no-brainer and I am in fact surprised some South African isn’t already doing it.
    Ranches for elephant herds. – and we are indeed talking male & female extended family groups here – strikes me, in my ignorance, as more problematic. They roam in herds, for many thousands of miles. They are social animals with sophisticated social structures, so you cannot just breed them in relative isolation like horses and buy and sell individuals.
    I would wish any such project well though. I commend Simon Jenkins for standing up to say it. I commiserate with him for needing to do it on CiF. And if I didn’t already have a stupid moniker I would call myself JoannaDark.

  8. Sure, elephants are intelligent compared to most other vertebrates. But they’re still pretty dumb. As far as anyone can tell, it’s only humans that have any apprehension of the inevitability of death, so as long as humane conditions exist while the elephants are alive then I see no moral argument against treating them as livestock. We like elephants because they’re big and powerful and display a lot of fun traits, but remember they’re only the end result of applying Cope’s Law to a shrew for long enough.

  9. Generally, I don’t think you can use intelligence as a single axis to decide these things. For example, pigs are pretty clever, but they’re also extremely tasty.

    So I suggest we refrain from a decision until we’re sure how delicious roast nelly is.

  10. So I suggest we refrain from a decision until we’re sure how delicious roast nelly is.

    By repute? Only slightly preferable to cutting your own leg off and eating it.

    I make no claim to knowledge of either. But I’ve never served in the Selous Scouts.

  11. And the latest crazy idea from the animal rights fruitcakes is destroying all the works of art made from ivory.

    Maybe we should be hunting animal rights nutters instead. What do you think, shoulder or full mount?

  12. Dave – “Our studies have shown that elephants are (at least in human terms) some of the most intelligent animals on the planet.”

    Our?

    “you’re not allowed to kill other humans.”

    Actually you are. Depends on context though.

    “Where do elephants fit in? At what point does farming turn into slavery? Elephants are towards the end of the scale where we have to start asking ourselves some tricky questions.”

    No they are not. They may look impressive, as do whales, but that does not mean they are intelligent. Too many researchers have become activists these days. See pretty much all primate “communication”.

    Rational Anarchist – “You only have to look at what people do to other people with relative impunity in some parts of the world to realise that rights for animals (no matter how smart) is a long long way off.”

    Animals do have some limited rights. Especially in the West. There is a limit to what we can do to most of them. Stupid rules, but rules nonetheless. Try torturing a chicken to death and see how long you get away with it.

    Ironman – “Ranches for elephant herds. – and we are indeed talking male & female extended family groups here – strikes me, in my ignorance, as more problematic. They roam in herds, for many thousands of miles. They are social animals with sophisticated social structures, so you cannot just breed them in relative isolation like horses and buy and sell individuals.”

    Luckily the ones people want to kill – the males – tend to go off on their own for extended periods. So we could shoot those with little impact on the rest.

  13. JuliaM – “And the latest crazy idea from the animal rights fruitcakes is destroying all the works of art made from ivory. Maybe we should be hunting animal rights nutters instead. What do you think, shoulder or full mount?”

    Perhaps we can offer them a deal – humans are much better subjects for medical research than animals are. Let’s offer them a swap. They can go to Oxford’s labs as test subjects and in return we will experiment on fewer animals. A bit of a win-win really. They will be happy that fewer animals suffer, the researchers will be happy to get test subjects that are more analogous to actual people, and we won’t have to put up with all their whining.

    So it is simple – they can volunteer or the bunny gets it.

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