26 comments on “Timmy elsewhere

  1. I can well believe the Nigerian economy is large: they have enormous oil production on which piggy-back dozens of multinational corporations who are fleeced rotten for the privilege of being in the country. And beside that, you have 170 million people walking about barefoot selling yams, rooting through rubbish, and generally engaging in commerce equivalent to about $1 per day. Couple the two together and you have a pretty serious economy. The lesson to be drawn from it that size of economy has no bearing on whether a place is an utter fucking shithole or not.

  2. As a general observation, almost every Nigerian I’ve met has initially insisted they come from somewhere else.

  3. Frances

    If this country still has a large number od defined benefit schemes relative to others, which it does, and if employers’ costs of hiring staff include these large amounts, which they do, and if these accrued rights therefore represent deferred income of employees, which they do, then we aren’t ‘apparently’ a nation of prudent savers; we are a nation of savers, albeit we never realised that’s what we’re doing..

  4. Tim Newman – “I can well believe the Nigerian economy is large: they have enormous oil production on which piggy-back dozens of multinational corporations who are fleeced rotten for the privilege of being in the country. And beside that, you have 170 million people walking about barefoot selling yams, rooting through rubbish, and generally engaging in commerce equivalent to about $1 per day. Couple the two together and you have a pretty serious economy. The lesson to be drawn from it that size of economy has no bearing on whether a place is an utter fucking shithole or not.”

    This reminds me of two other economies in Africa. In Botswana people aren’t that poor. And they aren’t such criminals either. But basically you have a First World diamond mining company, some rich government ministers and a lot of poor people. In South Africa Black people are even less as poor. But you have a First World nation among a much larger Third World nation.

    So sure, if you have a lot of people selling yams, the country as a whole might be rich because enough yams eventually adds up to something. But on the other hand, no African country shows the slightest progress towards being modern. Even if they have oil. See also Angola the Presidential daughter being the richest person in Africa. And Spain’s former colony of Equitorial Guinea. About which Wikipedia says it all really:

    Since the mid-1990s, Equatorial Guinea has become one of sub-Sahara’s largest oil producers. With a population of 650,702, it is the richest country per capita in Africa,[7][8] and its gross domestic product (GDP) per capita ranks 69th in the world;[9] However, the wealth is distributed very unevenly and few people have benefited from the oil riches. The country ranks 136th on the UN’s 2011 Human Development Index. The UN says that less than half of the population has access to clean drinking water and that 20% of children die before reaching five.

  5. SMFS

    Yes Africa is poor and, yes the development picture is patchy. However, we might well be witnessing Africa’s renaissance. This could be the most exciting, greatest time in history to be an African.
    ‘Shithole’ just doesn’t cut it anymore.

  6. Africa might be going somewhere, but Nigeria most certainly isn’t. Calling it a shithole does an injustice to holes in the ground that you shit in.

  7. I ‘m not keen on disagreeing with either Ironman or SMFS as both are distinguished destroyers of Richard J Murphy whose contributions to exposing his incipient fascism are praiseworthy in the extreme, on this occasion, I recall reading this on the way back over the Atlantic in January, whilst it’s hypothetical, based on demographics and the EU’s current course, who’s to say what will happen in 5 decades?

    http://www.theafricareport.com/North-Africa/africa-in-2064-an-afrocentric-future.html

  8. Ironman – “Yes Africa is poor and, yes the development picture is patchy. However, we might well be witnessing Africa’s renaissance. This could be the most exciting, greatest time in history to be an African.”

    WTF? We might be. My aunt might have balls and might be my uncle. But I don’t think the betting is good. Africa is actually manufacturing less. It is growing simply because the Chinese are buying everything they can dig out of the ground.

    Is there any evidence at all that Africa is doing any better?

    Not that I can see.

    “‘Shithole’ just doesn’t cut it anymore.”

    One day Africa may rise to the level of, say, the Philippines. But that day is some time off. A sh!thole it is and a sh!thole it is likely to remain.

    Van_Patten – “on this occasion, I recall reading this on the way back over the Atlantic in January, whilst it’s hypothetical, based on demographics and the EU’s current course, who’s to say what will happen in 5 decades?”

    If it is the Atlantic, it is bound to be sh!t. I am not competent to say what will happen in five decades. But this reminds me of that other Afro-enriched society, Brazil – the country of the future. And it always will be. Africa’s future will always be glorious – 50 years from now.

    There is not one single remotely competent African majority society on the planet. Regardless of the institutions they have, regardless of the political order they live under, regardless of the access they have to First World markets. Not a single one is able to do something as simple as teaching their children to read. Or providing some police.

    The record of African-origin people is 100% failure.

    No doubt that is an appalling and racist conclusion. It is true though.

  9. SMFS

    The first point, though by no means the last, about appalling racism is it fails to understand the most basic facts about human beings and humanity.

    That’s all really.

  10. SMFS

    As I said before the post got slightly garbled on this infernal Apple device, I feel (and no doubt flattery is the last resort of the desperate) extremely remiss in disagreeing with you given your consistent record of opposing Pure evil (usually in the form of Richard Murphy), however, I think the tide is perhaps turning – there are at least a handful of African societies that have shown positive trends in the last fifteen years or so – Botswana, Ghana and Zambia to name a few. There are huge issues, but your argument could probably have been applied to the likes of South Korea or Hong Kong 80 years ago with Asian substituted for African and, now both have a substantially greater standard of living than the UK, and if Murphy and his ilk gets in the comparison will look even more stark.

    I hasten to add that you are correct that the record of African societies in the post colonial era is wretched, but the demographic trends are strongly in their favour. By contrast Europe is literally dying out, and with the Murphyite tendency seeing its few best and brightest increasingly fleeing the stultifying bureaucracy and crippling taxation for pastures fresh (especially in the South and East) it’s future looks arguably considerably less promising than Africa’s…..

  11. Africans (at least, recent, non-muslim ones) are one of the more successful immigrant groups in the West.
    All a question of attitude, I suppose.

  12. Ironman – “The first point, though by no means the last, about appalling racism is it fails to understand the most basic facts about human beings and humanity.”

    Which is?

    Van_Patten – “I think the tide is perhaps turning – there are at least a handful of African societies that have shown positive trends in the last fifteen years or so – Botswana, Ghana and Zambia to name a few.”

    There are a handful. And I agree about the positive trends. But then putting Detroit in the hands of the receiver is a positive trend too. It would have been better if the people of Detroit voted for a sane government, but they didn’t. It would be better if the people of Africa were working their own way out of poverty. But they aren’t. They are just getting massive Chinese investment. Lucky for them, good for the Chinese. But South Korea they are not.

    “There are huge issues, but your argument could probably have been applied to the likes of South Korea or Hong Kong 80 years ago with Asian substituted for African and, now both have a substantially greater standard of living than the UK, and if Murphy and his ilk gets in the comparison will look even more stark.”

    South Korea is not richer than Britain although both Hong Kong and Singapore are. I am sure my argument could have been. I would have objected to it back then. But since then, more evidence has come in. I am less sure about the Japanese/Korean model these days and I don’t think Hong Kong’s future is bright either. Africa is not doing all the things that East Asia did – in particular it is not investing in serious education.

    “I hasten to add that you are correct that the record of African societies in the post colonial era is wretched, but the demographic trends are strongly in their favour.”

    I look with envy on their population growth. Is that what you mean? It takes more than lots of young people to become rich.

    “By contrast Europe is literally dying out”

    I do not dispute that either.

    bloke in france – “Africans (at least, recent, non-muslim ones) are one of the more successful immigrant groups in the West. All a question of attitude, I suppose.”

    You mean among the successful non-White recent immigrant groups, Africans tend to do a lot better than Blacks of Caribbean origin? Because there are a hell of a lot of recent African immigrants who do nothing but stand around the streets of Paris harassing every girl who walks past.

    This I do not dispute much either. Although if you have a continent the size of Africa, and you select the most talented, it is no surprise that some of them will do well. The problem is the trend to the mean. Give their offspring time to absorb the toxic yoof culture of the modern Caribbean (and inner city) and they will be filling our prisons too. On a per capita basis, Britain already jails a larger proportion of Black people than the US I believe.

    ken – “To those who doubt the numbers – I’d point to this.

    http://personal.lse.ac.uk/YoungA/TheAfricanGrowthMiracle.pdf

    Alwyn Young was the chap who did the work that made Paul Krugman famous for the Asian growth miracle myth.”

    When South Korea and China grow at 8-10% a year, that is a miracle. When Africa grows at 3.5% a year, that is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Actually that article is a brilliant example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. We should celebrate because they are doing all this despite dying off from HIV (which I would dispute myself(?

    But I don’t want to be too cynical about this. It is good for Africa. Good for Africans. But a miracle it is not. In the meantime, think of the gross incompetence that means Nigeria finds this sort of loose change down the back of the couch. Or that article finds in Mozambique and so on.

    Think what the Courts and police are like in these countries.

  13. “Which is?”

    No, sorry. We’ve had discussions on your filfthy views on race before and we’re not having another. If you haven’t grasped what those fundamentals are by now you just don’t want to or just aren’t able to; I’m not helping you.

  14. Ironman – “We’ve had discussions on your filfthy views on race before and we’re not having another. If you haven’t grasped what those fundamentals are by now you just don’t want to or just aren’t able to; I’m not helping you.”

    Well, no. *You* have had a say on what you *think* my views on race are. But we haven’t. Given you clearly do not understand them.

  15. Ironman – “Well, I’d like to think I’m fair; the floor is yours.”

    Then I will say what I always say – I hope that race is not important as Western civilisation is too invested in the idea that it is not. Although science seems to have left me behind on this. When even the Science Correspondent of the New York Times admits race is real, it is probably time to accept it is.

    What is clearly true is that race acts as a marker for things that matter. It may not be genetics that causes it, but it is very strongly associated with a whole lot of things. Failure in economic matters is one of them. Africa is poor. It is not the fault of Capitalism. It is not the fault of the British Empire. People fail for their own reasons. Which I tend to assume is rooted in their own culture. Cultures which are more or less impossible to change.

  16. So raace is the marker is it? So black Africans will always be poorand “race is the marker”.

    This is as weasley as when you wrote that our laws discriminated against ‘indigenous people’. I took 6 goes and still couldn’t get you to say what you meant by ‘indigenous’ (you meant white.

    There there’s the sick moment you chose to cut across peoples’ sad and very disturbing memories of visits to concentration camps and you argued that the human soap story was a myth.

    Your attempts at detailed rationalisations do not mask your racism I’m afraid.

  17. Ironman – “So raace is the marker is it? So black Africans will always be poorand “race is the marker””

    I hope they won’t always be poor. But the outlook is not good. Modernity is hard. Everyone has been trying. Almost everyone has been failing. There is no sign that Africans are about to succeed.

    The question is why.

    As for race being a marker – quote accurately. Given you do not understand and clearly do not want to, honesty becomes even more important. I did not say race was a marker.

    “This is as weasley as when you wrote that our laws discriminated against ‘indigenous people’. I took 6 goes and still couldn’t get you to say what you meant by ‘indigenous’ (you meant white.”

    As if it matters. We need a term. It seems a reasonable term to use. What was your objection? There some invisible PC line that the term crosses?

    “There there’s the sick moment you chose to cut across peoples’ sad and very disturbing memories of visits to concentration camps and you argued that the human soap story was a myth.”

    So your basic problem is that you have spent the last few years storing up grievances and you have nothing. You wish you did, but you don’t. Which is why you have to resort to this sort of pathetically lame “he hurt my feelings” approach? Clearly your time has been well spent.

    “Your attempts at detailed rationalisations do not mask your racism I’m afraid.”

    I have not made the slightest effort at rationalisation. What I say is what I say. Why should I care less if some teenage Trot thinks it is racist or not?

    But given you have a bug up your a$se about something, and it is clearly not anything I have said because you can recall nothing objectionable, perhaps you might like to reflect a little on what it is that annoys you so much? It would save us all a lot of time if you worked through whatever issue it is that makes you act out in public.

  18. “…you might like to reflect a little…”

    Do you really think a filthy little racist is going to cause me to stop for one second to reflect on myself? That’s just not how it works when you feel superior to someone.

  19. Having spent 3 weeks in Madagscar 2 years ago mixing with the locals (and having heard stories from friends having lived them for a few years), SMFS supposed racism is nothing compared to black on black hatred within the same country between ethnicities.

    What Africa needs 1st and foremost is to get rid of corruption. Which is not likely to happen any time soon when all depends on which “people” you belong to. In Madagascar, it would be “les cotiers” contre les “hauts plateaux”. The latter are in charge, so the former can go fcuk themselves.

  20. Ironman – “Do you really think a filthy little racist is going to cause me to stop for one second to reflect on myself? That’s just not how it works when you feel superior to someone.”

    Sure but that your problem. It is the Ritchie disease. You feel so smugly superior you refuse to think about what a weapon’s grade cock end you’re being. All I said is that every African-origin majority society on the planet is a sh!t hole. Which they are. This is an observable fact. Instead of having a sensible discussion about why that should be, you have done an impersonation of La Toynbee when she is asked about flying to Tuscany. Brilliant. Keep it up.

    monoi – “Having spent 3 weeks in Madagscar 2 years ago mixing with the locals (and having heard stories from friends having lived them for a few years), SMFS supposed racism is nothing compared to black on black hatred within the same country between ethnicities.”

    In fairness most of the indigenous people of Madagascar are of Indonesian origin. So fairly Black on Black hatred.

    “What Africa needs 1st and foremost is to get rid of corruption. Which is not likely to happen any time soon when all depends on which “people” you belong to. In Madagascar, it would be “les cotiers” contre les “hauts plateaux”. The latter are in charge, so the former can go fcuk themselves.”

    It is more than corruption. They need to stop thinking that everything White people do is evil as well. They should be learning from the West. Not the Soviet Union.

    But of course asking for an end to corruption is too much. Competent societies are run by Northern Europeans. Or people close to them. Or people who can be forced to be like them. Or in the case of the Japanese, people who want to be them. They are not run by people who support Black Power in any shape or form.

    See the South African Airforce for a good example of what happens when power moves from Northern European origin people to non-Northern European origin people.

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