On Julie Bindel and sex

I really only have one question about this:

What would real gay liberation look like? Marriage would be abolished for all in favour of something based on equality and next of kin rights rather than ownership and tax avoidance. Gay men and lesbians alike would challenge a culture and politics based on consumerism, and would speak out against the misogyny that confines both groups to stereotypes. And we would look beyond the picket fence and rejoin the picket lines in protest about the ongoing oppression and anti-gay bigotry we still face, despite legislative equality.

What in buggery does that have to do with what set of genitals one desires to fondle or be fondled by?

I get the idea about smashing the basic viviparous mammalian living arrangements that our species is prone to. Smashing capitalism and consumerism. I even get the idea that who you sleep with and how is a matter entirely of individual determination. I’ll agree that that last is a highly desirable state of affairs while rather humming and hawing about the first two.

I just cannot for the life of me see the connection between them all.

28 comments on “On Julie Bindel and sex

  1. “a culture and politics based on consumerism”

    Beware Middle Class academics bemoaning and wishing to end the access and right of working people to buy lots of stuff.

    I think Tim, she believes (as do some others) Capitalism is based on property, marriage and inheritance, therefore being gay wasnt just going up against legal or personal discrimination, it was supposedly challenging the basis of society.

    Except of course, we can have capitalism, marriage and gay marriage…..

    So erm, I guess she and her fellow radical queer theorists were wrong.

  2. “challenge a culture … based on consumerism”

    Wasn’t the whole “pink pound” idea based on the observation that many gay men are actually quite prone to buying expensive kit?

  3. If there’s one thing that all gays are known for, it’s their hatred of consumerism. Fashion, technology, foreign holidays, lavish homes, indulgent socializing.. they HATE all that stuff.

  4. What The Thought Gang said. I know a boatload of gay men thanks to 6 months spent living in Thailand, and they’re not exactly averse to Tiffany and Louis Vuitton.

  5. Also note her claim that homophobia is just another kind of misogyny because it punishes men for acting like women, or something.

  6. The Sapphic thing is just an affectation for that fat fool Bindel. Hell–wasn’t there a blog last week where she was more or less saying how scummy her lesbian sisters are because of their raucous antics at lesbian sex shows. She is down on them because they actually are interested in the flesh of other women rather than the hatred of men and propagating socialist evil–which two activities seem to comprise her definition of lesbianism.
    So she says we should live in a world in which 4% or less of the population dictates to all the rest of us?. But wait–to a poisonous radfem like Bindel all women are lesbians(the political kind)–it is only the “conditioning” imposed by us wicked patriarchs that keep you women from flowering into your true lesbian consciousness. So it will, once you have all been “liberated” from your enforced heterosexuality truly be a lesbian paradise. After that, apart from a few gay males kept around for fashion advice, the rest of we heterosexual men can finally be disposed of as is the ultimate ambition of the radfem.

  7. I think this goes back to your typical Rad Fem stuff, which is that capitalism and the oppression of women (and honorary women like gays) are synonymous; the expropriation of sexual value waffle waffle marriage as slavery waffle waffle consumerism waffle waffle therefore marxist dialectic waffle waffle…

  8. OTOH a lot of lesbians really are like Bindel: sullen, permanently aggreived, dogmatic radical left 1970’s politics.

    I’m not convinced she could ever be happy. Even if we reordered society to meet every one of her demands, she’d just come up with more.

    The subheading is revealing:

    The gay community has bought into marriage, babies and big business at huge cost to its radical potential

    Like brown folks and the disabled, or the white working classes before the Left threw them under a bus, gays are supposed to want whatever radical lefties want this week. If they have hopes and dreams of their own that don’t align with radical leftism, it’s false consciousness.

    The latest to offer us commercialism masquerading as campaigning is Burger King. It recently introduced the Proud Whopper, just in time for the San Francisco Pride march […]

    The fast food chain is not known for its commitment to equal rights more broadly. In 2009 it introduced an advertisement in Singapore that showed a picture of a woman looking like a blow-up doll, her mouth wide open and a “super seven incher” aimed at it, with the caption, “It’ll blow your mind away”.

    Has Julie ever seen a gay pride march? A blow up doll eating a sandwich with a Carry On double entendre slogan wouldn’t cause any raised eyebrows.

    Of course, what Julie objects to is the idea that the BK ad was designed for consumption by heterosexual men. Everything’s exploitey when they do it.

    The gay community used to be defined by politics

    That’s what Kenny Everett, Elton John, Rock Hudson, Alan Turing, and Derren Brown got into it for. The politics.

    Rather than meeting on the picket line, we meet on a commercialised social scene, in clubs often owned by straight entrepreneurs,

    The bastards!

    This deradicalised version of gay life revolves around marriage, babies and mortgages.

    Houses are just a conspiracy to oppress the gays. Throw off the chains of your soft furnishings!

    Many gays have kidded themselves that bigger and richer sponsors for our Pride events and charities means acceptance rather than acquiescence

    Bastard corporations are just tricking you! With their money!

    But how can we be liberated when there are still daily attacks on gay people

    Heterosexual people are never attacked.

    and when the school playground remains, in many ways, hostile to gay pupils? Just last week a YouGov poll, commissioned by Stonewall, found that 86% of secondary school teachers had witnessed homophobic bullying.

    Campaigning organisation finds there is “much do be done” shocker.

    I was bullied at school and I’m not even gay. One boy in my class had to go to hospital to have his eye put back in its socket after a playground fight. Is this the sort of thing Stonewall means? I doubt it. Probably most of those incidents are of the “ha ha you are gay LOL!” variety.

    But this means gays are oppressed, obviously.

    In the radical days of the Gay Liberation Front, both lesbians and gay men wanted to abolish marriage

    And some of them wanted to legalise sex with children. Don’t forget that bit, Julie. It’s “radical”.

    Many of us lived collectively, raising children as a community or friendship group, rather than in traditional couples.

    Weird that most gays don’t want to live in communes. What’s wrong with you people?

    What would real gay liberation look like? Marriage would be abolished for all in favour of something based on equality and next of kin rights rather than ownership and tax avoidance.

    Fuck you, Mum and Dad! We’re abolishing your marriage for equality!

    Gay men and lesbians alike would challenge a culture and politics based on consumerism, and would speak out against the misogyny that confines both groups to stereotypes.

    Peter Tatchell on a bike! Does Julie hail from a distant planet where all words have been replaced by “misogyny”? Does she have a rare form of lesbian Tourettes where she can’t help but say “misogyny” at random?

    While lesbians and gay men fork out on marriage, an institution previously eschewed by feminists and anti-capitalists, our brothers and sisters in Russia, India, Uganda and elsewhere are suffering the most grotesque oppression by the state,

    Non sequitur. Also, interesting pick n mix of the less gay-friendly countries. Is it harder to be homosexual in Russia than it is in Pakistan, Iran, or Saudi Arabia? Does Julie think it’s OK how Muslim societies treat gays?

    My faith in human reasoning is slightly buoyed by how she’s being torn apart in the comments.

  9. Bullying was dreadful at my shitty hellhole of a school. Being bad at games would get you punched. Being perceived to be gay meant you’d get the piss taken constantly.

    There was one kid in my class who was constantly derided for being gay. This was because he was physically awkward and had a lisp. Funny thing was, he was a devout born-again Christian and probably disliked actual homosexuals more than anyone else in the school. And of course, statistically, there must have been loads of gay boys but no-one ever realise they were gay — and why should they have, at school? It’s not as if we all had sex in front of each other. And that’s what all this fuss misses: kids aren’t bullied for being gay, they’re bullied for being “gay”, which is not quite the same thing.

    What the radicals seem to want is for boys to have the right to come out as raging queens when they’re thirteen. My memory of school is that what you need to do to make it through OK is fit the hell in: don’t tell anyone you’re homosexual, or that you play Dungeons & Dragons, or that you hate football, or that you prefer Gilbert & Sullivan to Dizzee Rascal, or that you can’t see the point in spending over £100 on white Adidas, or that algebra is really interesting, etc, etc, etc. Telling young gay kids to come out shows a total lack of understanding of human nature and is fucking cruel.

  10. Seems to me that she’s lamenting the fact that the gayers have won their fight to be accepted as normal people and as a result have started doing what normal people do (and quite rightly so).

    loathsome cow.

  11. JuliaM – they could get a random text generator to create this stuff:

    WHERE AREN’T THERE MORE BLACK LIBRARIANS?

    BRITAIN’S ZOOS PROMOTE HETERONORMATIVITY, SAY GAY PANDAS

    CLIMATE CHANGE MAY MAKE 10P CHOMP BARS EXTINCT

    Squander Two – I know, right?

    Somebody needs to inform Stonewall that “Glee” is just a TV show, not a template for secondary education.

    Children are merciless, sociopathic little bastards. I got bullied for years just because I shat myself in a rugby scrum.

  12. Squander two

    “What the radicals seem to want is for boys to have the right to come out as raging queens when they’re thirteen. My memory of school is that what you need to do to make it through OK is fit the hell in: don’t tell anyone you’re homosexual, or that you play Dungeons & Dragons, or that you hate football, or that you prefer Gilbert & Sullivan to Dizzee Rascal, or that you can’t see the point in spending over £100 on white Adidas, or that algebra is really interesting, etc, etc, etc. Telling young gay kids to come out shows a total lack of understanding of human nature and is fucking cruel.”

    I’ve got to take serious issue with your comments above: algebra is the dullest of dull dullness that ever dulled a dull day.

  13. Steve

    I was in a Hotel on Gran Vía in Madrid a few years ago, the day of the Gay Pride March. I watched from the window and then went down to the street. Madrid early summer, great weather, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of gays, some even local.

    The spectacle was at times amusing, colourful, ‘musical’ (if you like chunga-chunga) and seriously gross most of the time. ‘A blow up doll eating a sandwich with a Carry On double entendre slogan’ would have been considered outrageously mild!

    However, I will admit that the foreign gays when dressed ‘normally’ were spectacular. I was with a group of women having dinner the night before when I realised that the women (my wife included) were looking around and ignoring me (the cheek of it). We were surrounded by sleek, buffed, toned, ripped, simply gorgeous men. I felt like a dog turd on the pavement.

    I got my own back by reminding the females that they were all gay and mostly (but probably not all) unavailable.

  14. The woman’s mad, and luckily she’s so mad that she’ll discredit the lot of them by association (she could almost be an evilrightwing plant).

    On the subject of bullying, there was some at my school – old school boarding, all boys – but actually not very much.

    There was really a sense of solidarity – we were all in this together, against the boys in the year above (who would clip your ear for cheek, but broadly ignored you) and the masters, who could on occasion be utter cunts.

    Maybe that was unusual, I don’t know?

  15. I have noticed that people who complain about being stereotyped then go on to speak on behalf of that group as if it were stereotypical. I suppose the complaint is not about being stereotyped but wanting to decide what the stereotype should be.

    Pink Pound: well known, or so I thought, that Gay people are big consumers, having no kids therefore are free and eager to splash the cash, which seems to be at odds with what Julie thinks amounts to ‘Gay liberation’ – or is she on about the the false consciousness thing beloved of the Loony Left?

  16. Maybe the main thing here is to remember that Bindel isn’t a lesbian. She’s a pretend lesbian, an acting lesbian… let’s invent a word and call her a thesbian. (The male equivalent would presumably be a fauxmosexual or something).

    Bindel is one of a number of women- to be found in the Feminist movement- who, rather than being lesbians, that is women who fancy women, made a decision to declare themselves lesbian despite not actually fancying women. Sheila Jeffries is another living example, while Andrea Dworkin is of course the type species. The reasons for this is a mix of various sexual phobias- of men, penises, the sex act itself- and political belief. It seems likely that many may simply have an abnormally low or absent sexual drive.

    Which is why to Bindel “sexuality” is a political act. Hence-

    The gay community used to be defined by politics, but lesbians and gay men no longer share a political base

    In other words, you are not a “lesbian” because you fancy women and enjoy sex with them (indeed, the thesbian feminist Marilyn Frye’s survey of “lesbian” sexual activity among her fellow thesbians found the virtually non-existence of sexual activity) but because you are rejecting- for conscious political reasons (and perhaps subconscious psychological reasons) the sex act with men, and interactions with men in general.

    And this is why we have a Feminist movement which supposedly represents women, which has no understanding nor rational model of sexuality, either homo- or heterosexual. And why Bindel writes the tripe she does.

    “Thesbian”.

    /Frank Muir

  17. Steve-

    Your comment made me think again of today’s awesome Telegraph headline-

    “Schoolboy killed by polar bear after paperclips were used to fix tripwire, inquiry finds”

  18. “What would real gay liberation look like? Marriage would be abolished for all [my emphasis]”

    And there you have it, ladles and germs: the echt Marxoid definition of ‘liberation’, namely those in charge dictating what everyone must do and telling them they’re free as a result. You’re allowed to shoot people like that; in fact it’s practically a moral obligation.

  19. bilbaoboy – I know, some of those guys put David Beckham to shame. I look like Stig of the Dump in comparison, good job the wife always had a soft spot for Captain Caveman.

    BiG – “How do you eat a sandwich with a carry-on double-entendre slogan?”

    It’s all in the flick of the wrist.

    Ian B – where did a polar bear get paperclips from?

  20. @ Bravefart & Squander 2
    Algebra is far more fun that geometry! (I’ve got a maths degree, so I have some claim to know what I am talking about).
    @ Interested
    In my day bullying was limited by the ability to fight back. [At my prep school we had no bullying partly thanks to the ethos instilled by the Headmaster, but also ‘cos Stewie, who was captain of soccer and cricket and could, when challenged by a third-party, pick up the fourth-best fighter in the school and just put him outside the window – I’ll never forget that – and all the other good fighters were against it. Legend has it that when Stewie was 15 all he had to do was turn up outside his public school for the local yobs to stop attacking the frailer 16/17/18 year-olds. Those of us with lesser prowess defended the smaller boys when attacked by (what should I call them) from a local secondary modern. At least they didn’t physically attack the girls!
    At public school we were allowed to fight back – unlike modern comprehensives! The current system punishes the victim instead of the culprit.

  21. @john77 yes we could fight back too, it just wasn’t necessary that often. But then we had judo, karate and boxing clubs so if you wanted a scrap you could always find one legit.

  22. Rob Harries:
    “I think Tim, she believes (as do some others) Capitalism is based on property, marriage and inheritance, therefore being gay wasnt just going up against legal or personal discrimination, it was supposedly challenging the basis of society.”

    So being gay involves Sticking It To The Man.

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