But why should they?

Fewer than half of elite universities in Britain are monitoring the extent of sexual violence against students.

Seven of the 24 Russell Group universities said they do not systematically record allegations of rapes, sexual assaults and sexual harassment, while a further seven record only some according to a series of freedom of information requests.

No, seriously, why should a university be keeping crime statistics?

Do we ask that a university keep stats on drunk and disorderly? Muggings? Robberies? Arson? Murder? Somewhere in that range is where all “sexual crimes” fall. From the drunken grope through to the rape. And ifr unis are not asked, nor expected, to keep the numbers on those other crimes, they rightly being a matter for the police, the CPS, the courts and the Home Office, then why are sexual crimes beng picked out as something different?

64 comments on “But why should they?

  1. “…then why are sexual crimes beng picked out as something different?”

    Slavish “Me too”-ism for the latest left-wing trends coming out of the US.

  2. And again, it’s the latest US trends taken largely out of context – with the possible kinda-sorta exception of Ox and Cambs, universities don’t really have any special privileges in law-and-order issues. There’s no parallel justice system going on.

    British universities go in rather less for pastoral care, believing their charges to be vaguely like adults (even if they don’t always behave as such).

    So there’s absolutely no reason for the universities to be interested in this stuff, let alone encourage their students to report it.

    Bet that’ll change though…..

  3. “I was led to believe that I had to go to the police and I’m not ready”

    What is their problem with the police? Are they afraid they might meet some unsavoury characters in the police station? Unlike Jarvis Cocker, the thought of having to talk to common people frightens them beyond belief? I’m reminded of the Brit who studied anthropology in Magaluf, who had hitherto led an incredibly sheltered life.

  4. As I understand it, in the US the police standard of evidence (i.e. they want some) is insufficiently progressive and socially just.

    Hence they want the universities to hande it on a “she-said” basis.

  5. “I was led to believe that I had to go to the police and I’m not ready”

    This is an adult, apparently one of the elite, having to be “led to believe” that the correct place for an allegation of serious sexual assault was the police and not her sociology lecturer.

  6. I’d distinguish between violent/sexual crime and property crime etc. From a Health And Safety point of view, recording incidents of the former, at least on university facilities or accommodation, seems a reasonable expectation. There may be steps the university can take in response to collected data – for instance, in choosing where to locate security staff, or putting restrictions on the student union bar.

    But the notion of collecting data on all students seems a bit silly really. British universities have huge numbers of mature students, mostly part time (not so much a feature at top rung universities except at postgrad level, but a very large chunk of the student population at many others). So we are talking about forty-something students who live maybe twenty miles away in their own home but commute to uni two days a week… If they get mugged on the street of their home town or an incident of domestic violence occurs at home then they might inform the university as part of an “extenuating circumstances” claim on a coursework or exam score, but I can’t see why the uni would want to record that figure centrally. There’s sod all they can do about it except run an “awareness” or “personal safety” course for new students, and I suspect most adult learners would view this as an egg-sucking activity. If a student doesn’t seek extenuating circumstances then how would the uni even know about it? Would they make it compulsory for students who feel they were the victim of crime outside academe to report it, even if they feel it is a private matter and may well not want to talk about it?

  7. No Tim it’s not the same at all.

    For violence, arson, theft etc it is expected that there is some objective physical evidence, and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty on the basis of that.

    For anything to do with women it is the other way round.

  8. Boarding schools do (or used to) keep internal crimes away from the police. Theft, for example, is likely to be punished with a phone call to the parent suggesting the child is withdrawn for medical / family reasons so as to avoid the stigma of expulsion or a criminal record.

    That said, you couldn’t possibly operate the same system in a university, where adults can come and go.

  9. It depends on the university. As a reasonable number of British universities provide accommodation, they probably should have some idea if theft or sexual assaults are being committed therein. You can see that in fact they do have some idea by the level of security in university dorms these days – cards, fences, barbed wire sometimes and cameras.

    But in general, of course, this is just the Usual Suspects trying it on in order to punish men for being male.

  10. May 25, 2015 at 9:58 am
    Boarding schools do (or used to) keep internal crimes away from the police.

    Yes, that went well didn’t it? Ashdown House, Downside, Chetham’s, Caldicott… Those names ring any bells?

    This stuff is a matter for the police.

  11. This is part of the current campaign to get a quasi-court system going in Universities. This will be a much more, shall we say, left-wing system, than the real court system. The idea is that once this is established it will gradually be extended into the real world.

    The left are always looking for back-door ways to gain control. This is their latest idea.

  12. “why should they?”
    And how *could* they – any genuine complaints should be made to the police, not the university, and if there is insufficient evidence to prosecute the victim’s right to anonymity will mean the uni doesn’t know about it.

  13. “The left are always looking for back-door ways to gain control. This is their latest idea.”

    And it’s not even original. The had to import it from the US.

    Makes a change from importing it from Moscow though, I guess…

  14. I’d love to be a fly on the wall when some exasperated bursar agrees with the NUS rep and decides that all female students living in college properties will be under curfew and locked in their ‘safe spaces’ by 22:00 hrs during term time.

  15. Machiavelli – “I’d love to be a fly on the wall when some exasperated bursar agrees with the NUS rep and decides that all female students living in college properties will be under curfew and locked in their ‘safe spaces’ by 22:00 hrs during term time.”

    How about when the university apologises to all the female only colleges they forced to go co-ed and agrees to make them all female only again in order to provide “safe spaces”? Saint Hilda and Lady Margaret Hall to remove all the boys. Baliol and Christ Church to remove all the lasses.

  16. The mention of public schools’ attitude to in-house crime bears some relevance here.
    Schools act in loco parentes & are generally trying to produce a simulacrum of a family for their attendees. And similar to a family, you don’t get the police involved when Little Brother Johnny pinches a yoghurt from the fridge. You’re trying to manage behaviour on a different level.
    I’d take a guess the vast majority of those calling for universities to be involved in this sort of thing are from middle-class backgrounds. They’re simply late developers. They still expect to be shielded from life’s knocks. They’re still expecting every problem to be solved by Mum & Dad who loves’em. The indifference of the great wide world comes as a shock.

  17. Just another example of the rule that the only American habits the world copies are the bad ones.

  18. “Just another example of the rule that the only American habits the world copies are the bad ones”

    And another example of the British left, who on most issues will self-define as anti-American, slavishly adopting the latest left-wing idiocy coming out the US, even when the same background context is not there.

  19. Remember when the Left wanted “The Man” out of people’s bedrooms?

    Halycon days of yore, those…..

  20. It’s clear that this educating girls once they’ve passed the age of puberty really hasn’t worked out too well.

    Perhaps we should go back to teaching them enough reading, writing and arithmatic to manage the kitchen appliances and maybe some fashion and make-up tips to help attract a suitable mate.

    The posh ones who have a rich daddy can go to special schools to learn how to walk in high heels with a few books balanced on their heads. Apparantly, this skill was once quite sought after in a gal.

    We should certainly stop them drinking alcohol or going to bars or clubs as it’s quite clear that they can’t be expected to handle themselves responsibly. Perhaps some social institutions could arrange regular dances – suitably chaperoned and with no alcohol of course – where the little darlings could meet prospective mates.

  21. Andrew M-

    That article about the poor little middle class miss on safari among the lower orders is pure comedy gold.

  22. It’s also worth reminding ourselves again that the latest poster girl Ione Wells was attacked by a 17 year old Somali immigrant with no connection to the University and thus her case is entirely irrelevant to this issue.

    And that during the liberal 1970s, students were campaigning to get rid of “old fashioned” rules about sexual conduct, allowing males in the female accomodation, etc.

    As I’ve often said, the eventual upshot of this is going to have to be, as in the Victorian Era the feminists are a reflection of, strict monitoring of women’s sexual behaviour, segregation, curfews etc. Because as we all know, even when a young woman thinks she wants it, she doesn’t really; it’s just patriarchal false consciousness.

  23. @ Ian B
    “the eventual upshot of this is going to have to be, as in the Victorian Era the feminists are a reflection of, strict monitoring of women’s sexual behaviour, ”
    You poor naive person! The desired upshot is 24/7 monitoring of all *men’s* behaviour at all times: every male will be attached to a monitor which will record everywhere he goes and everything he does. IngFem in place of IngSoc.

  24. Kevin B – “It’s clear that this educating girls once they’ve passed the age of puberty really hasn’t worked out too well. Perhaps we should go back to teaching them enough reading, writing and arithmatic to manage the kitchen appliances and maybe some fashion and make-up tips to help attract a suitable mate.”

    You say that like it is a bad thing. Seriously, would anyone miss them once they were gone? Well, academics would have to restrict themselves to preying on the boys. And the boys would have less incentive to go out in drinking. But apart from that … how well has educating girls actually worked out?

  25. Ian B – “It’s also worth reminding ourselves again that the latest poster girl Ione Wells was attacked by a 17 year old Somali immigrant with no connection to the University and thus her case is entirely irrelevant to this issue.”

    It is also worth reminding ourselves again that immigration is the gift that just goes on giving. That these sorts of sexual attacks are the entirely inevitable – and predictable – consequence of allowing people from mediaeval cultures into Britain. That we have abdicated our responsibility to the weakest and most vulnerable in society. And the end result will be purdah for British girls.

    And that remains true no matter how much Ironman calls it racist.

  26. Andrew M – “Unlike Jarvis Cocker, the thought of having to talk to common people frightens them beyond belief”

    Read recently that the Greek girl of Jarvis unrequited admiration is now married to the Greek Finance guy who’s going to be holding the parcel when the music stops playing at the IMF…

    Its an odd world…

  27. Ian B – I did wonder if it wasn’t a spoof: how could anybody be so naive? Maybe she never watched ITV. That’s who we’re dealing with: people who expect to voyage from cradle to grave without once being sullied by the working classes or their pursuits.

    These are the same people who compain in CiF that they can’t get jobs at the BBC because those nasty tories didn’t ratchet up the licence fee enough. It’s the new New Labour: the further they can get from actual labour, the safer they feel.

  28. @ianb – “That article about the poor little middle class miss on safari among the lower orders is pure comedy gold.” – it was indeed a delight, reminds of a when some woman researched vandalism, secretly filmed tykes vandalising an empty house. The most interesting part was her utter astonishment and incomprehension of why young boys would vandalise a perfectly good. I also cannot tell you (from an anthropological point of view) why young boys smash up things, but I can tell you that they do, and its some of the best fun going.

    In fairness to the women in the linked to article, she does highlight that they seem to feel freer to be British abroad than at home. Which is interesting.

  29. johnny bonk – “In fairness to the women in the linked to article, she does highlight that they seem to feel freer to be British abroad than at home. Which is interesting.”

    Ironman doesn’t live in Spain. Too far for him to be heard shouting “Racism”.

    But then again, modern Britain is becoming such a strange place, the fake Britain re-created overseas might look more normal. Take this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3096376/Animal-activists-PETA-demand-Britain-s-oldest-pub-change-Ye-Olde-Fighting-Cocks-Ye-Olde-Clever-Cocks-celebrate-intelligent-chickens.html

    They are taking the p!ss surely?

  30. Andrew M, johnny bonk-

    I would argue that this kind of attitude, the sheltered woman going among the lower orders and coming back shocked, shocked! is classic of Progressives of both waves. The whole mindset is one of top down reform of the masses by people from a sheltered, bourgeois background, as it was in the first wave of Victorian Era matrons.

    That’s why we need to, in my view, see this in terms of moralism not politics. Socialism was an economic and political doctrine; the Progressives are missionaries.

  31. Apparently Tim W and almost every commentator on this thread thinks that if a student is assaulted by another student, their choices should be to go to the police or to do nothing.

    I think it screamingly obvious that an intermediate step – reporting the assault to the university authorities – should be available, as in fact it is.

    I find it hard to believe that if someone you cared for were the victim of such an assault you wouldn’t want them to have that choice.

  32. An assault is a crime. A university is not a suitable body to decide guilt or innocence. That is what the courts are for.

  33. SJW: You very well know that the only reason for this “Tell the Uni” drivel is to help promote lying femmi-commissar shite about what wicked raping monsters white male youths are. This is an attempt to transplant to the UK exactly the same pack of lies told in the US with their “1 out of 4 women on campus raped” bollocks.

    You clearly do not give a rat’s arse about socialistic lies and hatred being spread across society. Indeed it would seems you are happy to endorse any such plans.

  34. Yes, it’s basically a mechanism to generate bogus statistics. As if they haven’t got enough of them already.

  35. SJW, I’d think that if the “crime” being reported was insufficiently serious to involve the police then it wasn’t actually a crime at all and was more likely a case of a poor little rich girl getting her feelings hurt.

  36. SJW
    If a two similar crimes occur, one involving a current student and one involving a recent graduate, on what basis should they be handled differently?

  37. Social Justice Warrior – “I think it screamingly obvious that an intermediate step – reporting the assault to the university authorities – should be available, as in fact it is.”

    As it is. Does anyone think there is a rule about telling your university? Or your local postman? Or the nice Mr Khan who runs the corner shop? Sure, if you want to, why not?

    That is not the issue. The issue is whether the university should then hold a kangaroo court and expel the boy.

    “I find it hard to believe that if someone you cared for were the victim of such an assault you wouldn’t want them to have that choice.”

    The choice to do what? Tell whomever they like? Sure. To ruin a boy’s life without due process? I would be torn, I have to admit, but luckily the legal system is not run according to the whims of the male relatives of the victim. It would be a lot more colourful if it was.

  38. I think it screamingly obvious that an intermediate step – reporting the assault to the university authorities – should be available, as in fact it is.

    What are the university authorities supposed to do with the report?

  39. Ears,

    > From a Health And Safety point of view, recording incidents of the former, at least on university facilities or accommodation, seems a reasonable expectation. There may be steps the university can take in response to collected data – for instance, in choosing where to locate security staff, or putting restrictions on the student union bar.

    Yes, fair enough. Plus, of course, a lot of universities are actually responsible for the architecture, and should probably be made aware when they’ve inadvertently built a mugging hotspot, like so many local councils did in the Sixties.

    SJW,

    > Apparently Tim W and almost every commentator on this thread thinks that if a student is assaulted by another student, their choices should be to go to the police or to do nothing.

    Depends what they want to do. Universities usually offer counselling services. If you want to ask for help with coping with having been raped, yeah, a university will probably be a lot better at that than the police. But the linked article is quite specifically about making allegations and conducting investigations — i.e. accusing someone, who will then become a suspect, then maybe a defendant. Damn right, that’s a job for the criminal justice system. It’s built right into the name.

  40. What next? Employers keep details of sexual crimes? Employers expected to investigate and sack for something the police are not involved in? Some employers may seperate the individuals, probably suspend on full pay if police charge. Then sack if found guilty in court. But what can an organisation do with he says she says and police not involved?

  41. What are the university authorities supposed to do with the report?

    Send it straight round to the police. Obviously.

  42. Have to wonder, if universities were to start investigating sex crimes, if the campaigners are ready for all the implications of that? I mean, we often see the complaint that the experience of going to the police can be quite traumatic. Well, yes, because the police have to gather evidence. So, sympathetic though they generally are these days, they’re still saying, as nicely as possible, “Get your kit off so our forensics medic can check your genitals for evidence.” They’re still going to complain, as nicely as possible, if you’ve washed since the attack. Their job is to try to get enough evidence to secure a conviction, and that process is not fun.

    Universities currently have the option of being nice, because they’re just providing counselling services. The moment they’re obliged to run a criminal investigation, that will change.

  43. ” The moment they’re obliged to run a criminal investigation, that will change.”

    They are not able or even planning to run a criminal investigation. They want to run a feminist investigation. That is to say a slow motion SJW necktie party with the aim of ruining the “accused’s” life rather than physically ending it . And deploying the bogus publicity generated to help damage as many other men as possible across society in general.

  44. If a crime happens on somebody’s property, whether a university or a hospital or a private company or home, the owner/manager ought to be informed. But it remains a matter for the police.

  45. Russell group DG: Our institutions have robust policies and procedures in place to deal with these matters, because ensuring student safety and wellbeing is extremely important to us.
    There’s a clue for you all.

    The issue is whether the university should then hold a kangaroo court and expel the boy
    The university should not hold a kangaroo court. And UK universities don’t.

  46. > They want to run a feminist investigation.

    Yes, I know what the campaigners want. They might even get it — briefly, until the first successful lawsuit against a university by a wrongly accused man, which would surely happen almost immediately, considering how many cases there would be and how many students have parents with serious clout. What I’m suggesting is that the campaigners are unaware of the law of unintended consequences and apparently impervious to the idea that they might get some of what they want but implemented in a way they don’t like. Which is highly likely.

  47. SJW,

    > The university should not hold a kangaroo court. And UK universities don’t.

    We’re talking about what is being demanded, not what is. Elizabeth Ramey’s case makes the demands very clear. She didn’t want a university investigation instead of a police investigation. She had a police investigation, which led to no prosecution, because of a lack of evidence. She then wanted a university investigation as well as the police investigation, and she wanted her alleged attacker punished by the university despite the fact that a police investigation had concluded he was innocent.

    The demand to punish people the criminal justice system says are not guilty is a demand for kangaroo courts. What else could it be?

  48. @SJW

    You haven’t said what sort of outcome you would be looking for from the University.

    A girl goes to the Uni and says she was sexually assaulted by a boy. He says he didn’t do it. Then what? What has been achieved?

    The police have far more expertise at determining whether an accusation has validity. They are equipped to gather and analyse evidence.

    The universties have no investigative or forensic capabilities.

    You want the (alleged) victim of a sexual assault to have the option of reporting it to the universty authorities but have yet to say what outcome you would expect and how you think the rights of alleged victim and alleged perpetrator are best served by this.

  49. Our institutions have robust policies and procedures in place to deal with these matters, because ensuring student safety and wellbeing is extremely important to us.
    There’s a clue for you all.

    That contradicts the article and, as AndyC says, it doesn’t explain what the policies and procedures are.

  50. it doesn’t explain what the policies and procedures are.
    You can look them up if you want to know. Here are Oxford’s.

    You haven’t said what sort of outcome you would be looking for from the University.
    Sometimes the facts are not in dispute, and the University resolution is gentler to all parties than the criminal justice system. These are cases you don’t hear about, but they do happen.

    Sometimes a police enquiry finds insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution, because, rightly, we demand a high standard of proof. That doesn’t mean the best resolution is to do nothing further, leaving the complainant and the accused to share classes and accommodation.

  51. > That doesn’t mean the best resolution is to do nothing further, leaving the complainant and the accused to share classes and accommodation.

    I agree. But.

    The man accused by Elizabeth Ramey was suspended from the university for three months. She then accused Oxford of a failure to take action against him. She also claimed that the problem with this is that it left other women at risk because the majority of campus rapists are repeat offenders. She also claimed that women would not come forward to report being raped unless they could be assured that the university — not the police — would investigate it and punish the accused.

    So, no, this is nothing to do with just separating the accuser and the accused. The demand is that the accused be separated from every single woman in the university. The demand is that the accused be punished regardless of what the criminal justice system says about their guilt. And, whatever the punishment is supposed to be, a mere three-month suspension is considered literally insignificant.

  52. “Sometimes the facts are not in dispute, and the University resolution is gentler to all parties than the criminal justice system. These are cases you don’t hear about, but they do happen.”

    So you are advocating that a serious crime be kept away from the police and the offender given ‘gentle’ treatment? A sort of university alternate Sharia system? And whereas in an earlier post you were denying that ‘kangaroo courts’ didn’t exist, now you say they do and are a good thing? Because if the matter is dealt with internally, it means both victim and offender are being denied the expertise that only the legal system can offer. ‘facts not in dispute’? Who decides? Given that many people are convicted in real courts because they admited guilt before properly advised by a lawyer that the ‘proof’ shown the offender by the police was in reality no such thing, how could you be sure the same wasn’t happening in these ‘hush hush’ university ‘trials’?

    And why just universities? Why not offices, religious communities, tennis clubs, factories? All with their own secret legal systems offering ‘gentle’ treatment of sexual crimes. Should that be encouraged? Or is it only academia to be trusted with their own alternate legal system?

    ” Sometimes a police enquiry finds insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution, because, rightly, we demand a high standard of proof. That doesn’t mean the best resolution is to do nothing further, leaving the complainant and the accused to share classes and accommodation.”

    So what is the ‘best resolution’ in your opinion? That when the police decide there is no case to answer that the university should be able to decide otherwise? Expel the accused from the class and accommodation? How is that not a kangaroo court?

  53. “”it doesn’t explain what the policies and procedures are.”
    You can look them up if you want to know. Here are Oxford’s.”

    All good stuff I am sure.

    I am also fairly sure that the police’s internal instructions on such matters include “getting the alleged perpetrator’s side of the story” which the instructions at Oxford don’t seem to include.

    The alleged victim is encouraged to preserve potentially crucial evidence but the alleged offender is not given the same advice?

    Perhaps not thought important?

    Almost as if allegations were proof enough.

  54. Sometimes a police enquiry finds insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution, because, rightly, we demand a high standard of proof. That doesn’t mean the best resolution is to do nothing further, leaving the complainant and the accused to share classes and accommodation.

    Two opposing points of view. Point the first: Last year, an employee at my place of work got into an argument with a colleague, and punched him. The employee was fired. Punching someone is a criminal offense, but the victim wasn’t interested in pressing charges. So there was an employer’s sanction without a legal sanction. I contend that this is acceptable.

    Point the second: Allegations of rape or sexual assault at universities are a bit different. In these cases, the question isn’t usually over whether the sexual activity occurred, but over whether there was consent. Setting up a university court with a lower standard of proof which is empowered to expel alleged attackers doesn’t look much like justice.

    On the other hand, it’s hardly reasonable to expect someone to share tutorials with someone they claim has raped them, whether or not there’s any substance to the allegation.

    The question now is over who should be moved – the alleged attacker, or the alleged victim? Somebody is going to be disadvantaged here: tutors are not all equal, and for some degrees and some options, perhaps there is only one tutorial class in the whole university.

  55. I’ve said this before, but one of the glaringly obvious signs this has been imported from the U.S. is that a university doesn’t have much control over what goes on amongst its students if it is not a campus university – which is the case with most British universities. After the first year, most people live in private accommodation; most of the bars are nothing to do with the university. So to what degree should Manchester University intervene in an allegation involving two adults who were in a private club and live in private houses but happen to both attend courses at the university? The proposal is unworkable.

  56. Social Justice Warrior – “Sometimes a police enquiry finds insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution, because, rightly, we demand a high standard of proof. That doesn’t mean the best resolution is to do nothing further, leaving the complainant and the accused to share classes and accommodation.”

    Really? What does it mean then? That a boy should have his life ruined – as well as suffer damage to his reputation and career prospects – based on what? Hearsay? Rumour?

  57. @ Social Justice Warrior
    Oxford’s Guidelines, to which you link, start “The University Policy and Procedures on harassment may not be applicable where the allegations are of behaviours that may attract criminal sanction.” Also “The student harassment Procedure states that in the first instance such allegations will normally be a matter for police investigation and action, ”
    If it is a crime it is a matter for the police.Simples.
    The guidelines then go on on how to care for and support the alleged victim, which is their purpose. They do *not* involve the social injustice of punishing someone who has not been been tried and found guilty, as Ms Ramey demands.

  58. In my classes at uni there was a rapist and a rape victim, amusingly they became great friends. Still not sure they each know about the other.
    The fact she had been accused of rape previously did not prevent her studying and far as I know she was not a threat to the other girls.
    For whatever reason my uni was more concerned with academic issues. People chucked out for cheating or plagiarism.

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