True but

It is “intolerable” for the left that the Conservatives have won the first general election in nearly a quarter of a century, Carswell suggests. The logic of Carswell – and others – is that if a party wins a general election, then the whole population must submit and accept their legislative programme without so much as a whimper. An elected dictatorship, if you will. Even if that government is pushing one of the most radical rightwing agendas in postwar British history after receiving the support of a quarter of eligible voters – no, we must silently accept everything, from the dramatic curtailing of the trade union movement to the abolition of the Human Rights Act.

But…..when the left get in in, say, Venezuela and procede to entirely wreck the economy they’re defended with the mantra “but they won a free and fair election, didn’t they?” The Germans must cugh up to pay for Syriza’s plans because democracy.

Gooses and ganders Mr. Jones, gooses and ganders.

39 comments on “True but

  1. But then this is the chap who, if we tie the logic of his various outpourings together, berated the electorate for not electing a party he described as a “travesty”.

    So logic beyond “what’s good for my side at this exact moment” is not his good point.

  2. @JuliaM – another Grauniad-type article that will resonate so well with people who have to pay their own way in life (and earn less than the 35k or so that the untaxed benefits cap represents).

  3. Mr Jones, since when is Douglas Carswell part of ANY elected dictatorship? He is an opposition MP who’s crime is not agreeing with you.

  4. “Well, no, actually. I suspect most on the left, if asked for “ultimate evils”, would opt for, say, genocide, war or murder.”

    Oh, I don’t know about that. There’s plenty on the left who see Tories as either equivalent to or worse than all of those.

  5. @juliaM

    Look carefully are the photos in that mirror article – there’s one about halfway down that shows one of the kids carrying a macbook, and with what looks like a DSLR round her neck.

    Now I’ve no problem with people on benefits having nice stuff – but not if they are complaining they can’t afford the rent – that just says they need to learn to manage money better.
    Also – why do they need to run two cars? It’s not as if they both have jobs they’ve got to go to every day…?
    I bet I could feed, clothe, house that lot on what they get no problem, I fear this story is more about their poor choices than cruel government cuts.

  6. “I fear this story is more about their poor choices than cruel government cuts.”

    It always is. Notice how when the usual suspects parade some poor inadequate as ‘evidence’ of how the ‘cuts’ are eviscerating the poor, they can inevitably come up with someone with massive gaping holes in their tale of woe. Almost inevitably involving stupid decision making in their part. And not just ‘Well that decision could have worked out but didn’t’, but rather ‘What the f*ck were you thinking?’ ones instead.

    Which is so obviously going to be the case, judging by the way that so many people manage to play the welfare system quite happily and live lives of reasonable ease without working a jot. What we get to see are the people too stupid to even manage to work one of the most generous benefit systems on the planet to their advantage.

  7. If only there was some kind of second chamber which had the powers to scrutinise, amend, and delay any legislation that they considered unfit.

  8. I admit I always wanted to punch Blair and Brown on the nose, but using the reason of “elected dictators” never occured to me. And I bet it never occurred to anyone before Owen Jones approached puberty and stopped his mental development right there.

  9. Hm.

    They have two cars, understandable if there’s that manyy ; well, it looks to me like they have *one* car and a minibus of some sort.

    There’s wiring coming down the side of the door and up the side of the house, I wonder if there’s a Sky dish we can’t see here ?

    Anyone identify the camera around “Autumn”‘s neck ? I’d guess a Sony, but cameras with that sort of lens aren’t cheap either.

    Shades of this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185 maybe. “We have a choice between heating and eating” but not the option of no smart mobiles, cigarettes, alcohol, Sky TV etc etc.

  10. “His libertarianism, if implemented, would be nothing short of a social and economic disaster”

    I really don’t get the left. Surely if they look throughout history, libertarian countries have always seen good economic growth and socialist countries are without exception the disaster. How do the lefties, who must be aware of history, rationalise crap like that above? Has anyone ever heard their response to that?

  11. JM: “Owen Jones approached puberty and stopped his mental development right there.”

    And physical development too it looks like.

  12. “Even if that government is pushing one of the most radical rightwing agendas in postwar British history”

    LOL. Is he serious? Has he seen some hidden agenda?

  13. Re cameras, laptops and other luxuries, you don’t know when they were bought – before or after the man’s redundancy – or who bought them.

    Fun to kick the benefits scroungers when they’re down, though!

  14. “no, we must silently accept everything…” Owen showing his usual self knowledge.

  15. Anyone identify the camera around “Autumn”‘s neck ? I’d guess a Sony, but cameras with that sort of lens aren’t cheap either.

    Entry-level Canon DSLR, with kit-lens (i.e. lens comes with the camera body). About £350. If the girl is serious about photography, or is studying it in some way, it’s a good buy. If she wants to take selfies and put pictures of her cat on Arsebook, it’s not.

    I’ll not pass judgement on her having it: she might be a keen amateur and somebody gave it to her as a gift (photography is a cheap hobby these days), but it is a bit naive to leave it around her neck when being photographed being evicted.

  16. @john miller

    actually during the Red Terror, the idea of “elected dictatorship” was bandied around quite a lot.

    Low turnouts (60 %-ish for 2001 and 2005) and the gerry mandered boundaries meant that it required a huge lead ( well 5%) by the Tories to win the election. For many ( I think Norman Tebbit articulated the best ) there was no seeming end to the Brown/Blair dictatorship – unless a cataclysm occurred.
    Which is exactlty what happened !

  17. @ukliberty: ‘fun to kick people when they are down’..?

    When have they ever been ‘up’..? You really think an ASDA worker (now ex- worker) can afford 7 kids?

    And it’s noticeable that cutting the grass & giving the house clean and a lick of paint is obviously something he can’t fit into his busy schedule of failing to find any work too.

  18. Christ, even arch-Leftie @fleetstreetfox cried foul over this one, but clearly, UKLiberty is incapable of ever believing that maybe some folks are their own worst enemy…

  19. I’m not sure it’s a Macbook – looks more like a Dell to me. But one of their more recent machines.

    And he was described as a “former retail manager” in a Daily Mail article in January 2014, so he’s been out of work for at least 15 months. I’m sure McDonalds and Starbucks never have any jobs in Colchester…

    “And it’s noticeable that cutting the grass & giving the house clean and a lick of paint is obviously something he can’t fit into his busy schedule of failing to find any work too.”

    A friend of ours is a security guard who lives in a council flat, and she says you can spot the houses on the estate where someone works because the front of their homes look OK.

  20. Interestingly, those two stories- in the Mirrorm remember- each have a survey at the bottom.

    “Do you agree with the new benefits cap?” is 50:50 between Yes and No.

    “How many children are too many?” 90% voted “Anything more than you can afford”.

  21. JuliaM

    “Fun to kick the benefits scroungers when they’re down, though!”

    This is good example of ‘The Guardian sneer’ with its sarcastic contempt for anyone who disagrees with the leftist worldview.

  22. then the whole population must submit and accept their legislative programme without so much as a whimper.

    I effing wish. The British left and their mouthpieces in the Beeb, Mirror and Guardian done nothing but whine, whimper and whinge since about when the bloody exit poll was announced. Except the ones who went in for that old lefty tradition of rioting when us peons refuse to elect the right scumbags.

  23. JuliaM,

    You really think an ASDA worker (now ex- worker) can afford 7 kids?

    I don’t know his wealth, income or outgoings, so I have no idea whether he can afford them or not.

    …clearly, UKLiberty is incapable of ever believing that maybe some folks are their own worst enemy…

    On the contrary, I think many people are their own worst enemies.

    The Stigler,

    I’m sure McDonalds and Starbucks never have any jobs in Colchester…

    How do you know he hasn’t applied for a job in McDonalds or Starbucks? Why would they give him a job instead of any other applicant? Are there economic disincentives to not get say a minimum wage job in his circumstances?

    I can’t see any such info in the article.

  24. ukliberty,

    “How do you know he hasn’t applied for a job in McDonalds or Starbucks? Why would they give him a job instead of any other applicant? Are there economic disincentives to not get say a minimum wage job in his circumstances?”

    1. I don’t.
    2. I dunno. Maybe that whole “retail manager” experience? And I don’t know what planet you live on, but I can tell you that Micky Ds and most cafes struggle to get staff. Give me a healthy person with an IQ of at least 90 in a town in England and within a day or two, I’ll have them in work.
    3. No. Even with benefit withdrawal, he’d still be financially better off taking a job. OK, he wouldn’t get to spend as much time with his kids, but he’s got a wife to deal with all of that.

  25. “Re cameras, laptops and other luxuries, you don’t know when they were bought – before or after the man’s redundancy – or who bought them.”

    Well, we do, a bit. He worked at Asda from 23-36, and he’s now 42. That means that if he bought them when he was working, they are six years old. It’s difficult to tell, exactly, but they don’t look six years old, A 6 year old Macbook would be very slow ; I have a 5 year old Mac (cross compatibility reasons, I don’t work on it) and it is awful with latest software.

    Also, they have seven children, five of whom are theirs as a couple. Given that he seems very stupid (why refuse to open the door when it is obvious they are going to force it) and idle (look at the state of the property) I doubt he was Chairman of Asda which suggests that the five children he had have always been state funded.

    F**k that, they can fund their own children. Contraception is free on the NHS isn’t it ?

  26. (Also, if this was bought when he was working, then the person with the Camera was 6 or younger. Which suggests it is unlikely it was bought at that time for a purpose.)

    UkLiberty, how much would you bet me that

    1) out of site of the Camera is a Sky TV box or some other pay-TV equivalent if on cable etc.

    2) out of site of the Cameras are one or more expensive games consoles.

    3) out of site of the Cameras are at least a couple of smart mobiles.

    Anything ?

    I gave you this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185 from the notorious right wing BBC site, in which someone breaks down in fair detail *precisely* what was spent on what. The male claims that he has a choice of “heating or eating” ; nobody seems to agree, unsurprisingly (he drinks more in a week than I do in a month for example and smokes ….).

    I am still unsure whether this is a subversive article or not. The article is at least neutral and broadly sympathetic. But it is a complete joke when you look at the spending breakdown.

  27. UKL
    Yes it’s probably a marginal decision: whether to get off your arse and get a job, or stay on benefits. It’s called the poverty trap.
    But that’s the whole fucking point of reforming the benefits system. Make work pay.

  28. Indeed. I am amazed as ever by the response to the suggested 2 child limit on CB.

    “What, are you saying poor people can’t have more than 2 children ?”

    No, dearie. I’m saying if they want more than 2 children they can pay for it themselves.

  29. Face it, that family, and ones with similar numbers of kids got greedy. they saw kids as a nice little earner – why stop at 3 or 4 when you squeeze out a few more and get the State to pay for them, and provide a bigger house too? If they’d stuck at 2 or 3 they’d be on easy street, as many more astute welfare system milkers are, not really affected by the benefit cap.

    The current wheeze is to get one of the kids diagnosed as disabled in some way – ADHD or Aspergers will do well for young lads, particularly when there’s no father at home to control them and they’re on their way to becoming uncontrollable by their single mother and the feminised education system. This then unlocks more benefits, and a free car too. I know of one single mother (relation of an in-law) who having had one son diagnosed as having Aspergers for the last decade, is now trying to get the younger son diagnosed as having Tourettes, because the older one is coming up to 18 and the free money is going to disappear. Mate who works at a sink comprehensive says every single mother parent there is desperate to get their sons statemented as disabled in some way to get extra benefits. Always the single mothers, rarely those with two parents at home.

    Friend of mine rents his old house (paid off mortgage and bought another) to a family member. Said family member works, has two kids, and house is 3 bed. He has admitted straight out to my friend his ‘ambition’ in life is to get custody of his partner’s child from a previous relationship, thereby making his family a 3 child one, which will mean that in a couple of years he will qualify for a larger house provided by the State (either private rented or council house) as the teenage girls will be deemed to have to have their own rooms. His entire aim is to get a bigger house provided by the State, and then work the minimum hours required, and live off benefits, which he’s worked out will be the same whether he works full or part time.

    We have basically made having kids a money making exercise, and people wonder why the welfare budget is through the roof.

  30. Stigler,

    Give me a healthy person with an IQ of at least 90 in a town in England and within a day or two, I’ll have them in work.

    I’m sure the Mirror will be happy to put you in touch with that guy.

    3. No. Even with benefit withdrawal, he’d still be financially better off taking a job.

    Depends on the income from the job and his/the household’s combination of his benefits and tax credits etc. IIRC no financial incentive for someone on Jobseeker’s Allowance to work 1-15 hours for minimum wage. Increasing hours a little beyond that, moving into different benefits combinations, could mean you’re very slightly better off but the commute costs money. You have to get more than minimum wage and/or several more hours than 15 a week – and at 16, 24 or 30 hours, depending on the household, you get Working Tax Credits. But a lot of the work out there doesn’t provide such hours. Then there are the admin problems (e.g. signing off and on depending on the hours).
    Universal Credit is an improvement on the current mess but the roll-out has been a shambles.

  31. ukliberty,

    “I’m sure the Mirror will be happy to put you in touch with that guy.”

    Well, no, they won’t, but I’ll stand by that challenge. OK – two other qualifications – no facial/neck tattoos and no criminal record.

  32. ““I’m sure the Mirror will be happy to put you in touch with that guy.” Well, no, they won’t, but I’ll stand by that challenge. OK – two other qualifications – no facial/neck tattoos and no criminal record.”

    So, you’re looking for a Mirror reader with an IQ > 90, no neck/facial tattoos and no criminal record.

    Don’t ask for much…..

  33. Ah, Jim.

    Worked in the biz for many years. Had umpteen labelled “Tourettes Syndrome”, never come across one who actually had it (as opposed to “swears a lot”, what they actually mean.

    Ever come across “Oppositional Defiance Disorder” ; the idea is (I kid not) that the child is *incapable* of following instruction, it is not a choice, it is built in.

    My usual test is something like ; give the kid a chocolate bar and insist they eat it. Oddly, this doesn’t seem to be a problem, ever.

    I have though come across genuine ADHD. About 1 in 30 of those diagnosed with it, I’d guess. Mostly (like ODD) it’s being an obnoxious self obsessed little sh*t who has never had any parental guidance of any value.

  34. @ Paul
    I used to meet a kid with ADHD who attended the same branch of the National Association for Gifted Children as no 1 son. Lovely kid, occasionally a bit of a problem ‘cos he didn’t do what the grown-ups asked or just because was a million miles away, but just that – a problem – never obnoxious: his mother nearly cried about having to give him Ritalin before sending him to school because it changed him into a different boy.
    There were also a handful with Asperger’s syndrome (we got a disproportionate number whom the education system was letting down) – the adults needed to think (or be thick-skinned) when talking to them but fine 90-odd% of the time and tolerable the rest (my particular memory in this case is of the group Hon Treasurer looking shocked because he thought his son had been rude to me when I thought it was perfectly acceptable). There was just one obnoxious spoilt brat among the regular attenders and there was nothing wrong with him except being brought up by a (totally self-funding hard-working middle-class) single parent who spoilt him.

  35. “Expecting people to pay for a crisis they had nothing to do with”

    Owen Jones thinks the above is wrong. he says so in his article.

    So putting up the tax rates for professional footballers must be wrong? After all, I don’t see that any of them caused the banking crisis.

    Can anyone tell me how a pre-pubescent fuckwit gets a job spouting wisdom at “The Guardian”?

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