Today’s idiot stupidity about Brexit

British people will not be able to live abroad in France and Spain if the UK leaves the EU, a minister has claimed amid warnings that a “Brexit” would lead to a decade of economic chaos.
David Lidington, the Europe minister, warned that a British exit from the bloc would be a “massive” risk and said “everything we take for granted about access to the single market” would be in question.

He really is a miserably stupid cunt isn’t he?

And we can prove this rather simply. I can here: if I go 15 clicks down the road to Silves I get to the Fabrica do Ingles. For the linguistically challenged, that’s the English factory. Set up here in Portugal a few hundred years ago to process the local cork for wine stoppers. By, as the name implies, English peeps. You know, somewhat before the EU?

Or you can test this in any decent off licence.

port

You’ll note that not all of the names there are wholly and distinctively Portuguese. Because Europeans have been moving around the continent before the EU so graciously gave us the permission to do so.

And if the absence of the EU really would mean no migration across Europe then we wouldn’t have quite such a German royal family, would we?

Man’s worse than an idiot or poltroon. I would really start to swear but I can think of any insult greater than politician here.

59 comments on “Today’s idiot stupidity about Brexit

  1. Europeans did not even need a passport, outside a few background sh!tholes like Russia, before World War One.

    Of course a good case could be made for this being a bad thing. We gave refuge to Marx and Engels. The price the rest of the world paid for that was high. Lenin and his merry men held a Conference in London. We should have shot them when we had the chance. Or at least deported them somewhere someone else would shoot them.

    Immigration has not benefited the UK since the Huegenots. Even that is arguable. We need a negative immigration rate. If leaving Europe helps us – and it would – then we should leave

  2. Every lying sack of shit in the world etc.

    However I think talking heads spewing such nonsense is a sign of how desperate they are

    Like Trump in the US, voting OUT of the EU is not only a very good idea in itself it is a way to kick the scum of the state –who have lorded it over us for so long–right in the place their balls would be if they had any balls.

  3. SMFS – You must be jolly glad then that I moved to Italy, Tim moved to Portugal and so on.

    The trouble with negative immigration is that the smart energetic types leave and the dross tend to stay behind… oooops!…

  4. Bloke In Italy – “You must be jolly glad then that I moved to Italy, Tim moved to Portugal and so on.”

    I see it as a form of foreign aid. If British people did not move to Italy to teach civilisation to the natives, well, they wouldn’t have A.C. Milan would they?

    “The trouble with negative immigration is that the smart energetic types leave and the dross tend to stay behind… oooops!…”

    Well that could explain Britain’s problems. Seeing as it was losing hundreds of thousands of people before World War One. So many that the war probably increased Britain’s population – fewer died than would have left.

  5. Immigration of high earners and high spenders has benefitted us; immigration of low earners has not. It’s not hard to understand.

    Same applies to emigration: a brain drain is terrible, but British dimwits bogging off to join IS is better than them staying here.

    Anyway, I must start a meme about Frau Windsor being kicked out of Britain if we leave the EU.

  6. @Bloke in italy
    “The trouble with negative immigration is that the smart energetic types leave and the dross tend to stay behind…”

    You see the same thing in companies on a downward trend: the ones who can leave, the ones who can’t stay. This often means those who are barely employable stick with the regular paycheck and security, rather than trying their hand in the jobs market.

    But: it’s not the case that those who don’t go are shit. Many just cannot relocate a whole family for non-economic reasons. I would have gone abroad years ago, but the inlaws aren’t able to be left alone. So it’s people’s propensity to relocate you are looking at, rather than their capability to do the same

  7. Andrew M – “Immigration of high earners and high spenders has benefitted us; immigration of low earners has not. It’s not hard to understand.”

    That being flooded with in-bred peasants from Bangladesh has not turned out well is obvious. But I don’t think it is true that being flooded with trash from the Gulf or criminals from the former Soviet Empire has helped either. At best it gives us a short-term “sugar rush” but it means we can put off real reform to the economy which is not good. It also means we have to deal with amoral thieving scum in London and the trash they leave in their wake.

    We would be better off without any of them. You would have to go back to Hayek to find someone who made Britain a better place by moving here.

  8. I’ve got 4 nippers in French private school. Only costs me a bit extra on the standard capitation allowance. If we left would I have to pay full whack?
    (I’ll vote leave anyway, but my finances would be f****d.)

  9. Sorry BiF but your problem is of little consequence compared to jumping ship from the floundering garbage scow that is the EU.

  10. As I’ve said before, he has a point: there is a huge difference between having the right as an EU citizen to live in France and the ability to apply to live in France as a British citizen. Anyone who disagrees is invited to visit a French prefecture and then come and tell me that submitting papers and applying for something in France is the same as being able to look a bureaucrat in the eye and say “nope, doesn’t apply to me”.

  11. It also glosses over the fact that London alone has many French and Spanish people (often fleeing from damaged economies), so it would be in everyone’s interests not to mess it up too much.

  12. Sorry BiF but your problem is of little consequence compared to jumping ship from the floundering garbage scow that is the EU.

    This is true, but it doesn’t mean the individual issues go away. So if I’m being asked to sacrifice my individual wellbeing in order to uphold a greater principle, those asking me to do so had better persuade me that this greater principle – freedom and liberty – is safe in their hands. Thus far, I am not very convinced, and my worst case scenario is I vote to leave, Britain leaves, I lose the personal benefits of EU citizenship but find Britain is ruled by a succession of statist assholes who continue the attack on civil liberties and replicate the “lost” EU bureaucracy with new layers of British bureaucracy. The Leave campaign has many noble followers on this blog, but it appears to be appallingly led (as does the Stay campaign).

  13. It also glosses over the fact that London alone has many French and Spanish people (often fleeing from damaged economies), so it would be in everyone’s interests not to mess it up too much.

    Indeed.

  14. Tim Newman – “As I’ve said before, he has a point: there is a huge difference between having the right as an EU citizen to live in France and the ability to apply to live in France as a British citizen.”

    Either you add value to France or you don’t. If you don’t, why should you stay there? If you do, why wouldn’t the French recognise that?

    Leaving means that Britain gets better in one way – we would be able to deport terrorists to such notorious torture havens like Italy and France. We would be able to deport illegals to such Third World hell holes like Greece. Actually Greece is a Third World hell hole, but we should deport them back there anyway.

  15. “… find Britain is ruled by a succession of statist assholes who continue the attack on civil liberties and replicate the ‘lost’ EU bureaucracy with new layers of British bureaucracy.”

    That’s true, but there would still then be a chance of voting them out and having an effect; in the EU case, none.

  16. If you do, why wouldn’t the French recognise that?

    Because French bureaucracy exists to employ people who couldn’t find their arse with both hands. The abstract French state might recognize that I add value but you wouldn’t know that from any dealings with its representatives.

    It’s not like we’re any better: if an educated Japanese or Russian applies for a visa to work in the UK with a job lined up, they get turned down. If an uneducated jihadist turns up, why it’s “come right in”.

  17. That’s true, but there would still then be a chance of voting them out and having an effect; in the EU case, none.

    This is true, but I’d be more confident we could vote in a party which wasn’t in love with nannying, meddling, and bureaucracy post Brexit if such a party existed pre-Brexit and we had a strong track record of voting them in. There’s a certain “physician, heal thyself” about all of this.

  18. Tim Newman – Because French bureaucracy exists to employ people who couldn’t find their arse with both hands.”

    And so naturally we should have these people rule Britain? We can get rid of one layer of government here. The one that is doing the most damage to the UK.

    “It’s not like we’re any better: if an educated Japanese or Russian applies for a visa to work in the UK with a job lined up, they get turned down. If an uneducated jihadist turns up, why it’s “come right in”.”

    I wish. The fact that half of London is foreign says otherwise. Educated people get to stay as well. It is the law abiding who have some problems but not many.

    We need to start deporting.

  19. They’ll be telling us next that Brexit will mean no more wine and pasta in Britain.

    This is the most moronic campaign in British history. Even the Scottish referendum wasn’t as bad.

  20. actually I think this is the only material negative impact of Brexit – undoubtedly the remaining EU states won’t make it easy for Brits to live and work in the rump EU.

    or are we all just happy with shouldve couldve wouldve

  21. I don’t think today’s London is a good advert for immigration at either end of the economic spectrum, personally.

  22. CHF Exactly, And I wonder if this accounts for the remainians in Westminster behaviour, getting windy at the thought of being truly accountable to the electorate for the first time in 40 years.

  23. And so naturally we should have these people rule Britain? We can get rid of one layer of government here.

    If Britain could and did get rid of a layer of its own useless bureaucrats then I’d be more inclined to believe the country would be run differently post Brexit. Unfortunately, we seem to be intent on increasing their number and successive governments incapable of sacking anybody.

  24. Tim Newman-

    Brexit on its own is not going to achieve anything much. In fact, we’ve discussed this over at the Libertarian Alliance many times, things will probably get worse, partly because our own ruling class will be off the leash and partly because they will want to exact revenge upon us.

    It’s just a first step towards getting a sanely ruled country back.

  25. Thoughts on this? [From Yanis Varoufakis]

    The Single Market is not the same as a free trade area lacking tariffs and quotas. It also involves three crucial elements: Common industry standards, common labour protection rules, and common environmental protection rules. Additionally, it requires a common legislative process to produce the legislation in support of these three common elements, an executive to implement them and a judiciary to try cases when these common rules are violated. In short, a Single Market requires all three of Montesquieu’s powers (legislative, executive and judicial) that make up a common sovereignty and a single jurisdiction.

    Put differently, EU critics are correct to say that, under the present arrangements (prior to any Brexit), Britain’s government (and, indirectly, the Houses of Parliament) maintains a frustratingly tenuous influence over the EU’s decisions that determine much of Britain’s economic and social life. This is, indeed, highly imperfect and inconsistent (as Brexit’s supporters argue) with full sovereignty of the House of Commons.

    However, as long as Britain remains in the Single Market, Brexit will remove even this tenuous influence. Voting to LEAVE the EU (but to stay in the Single Market) is the equivalent of submitting fully to an utterly alien (Brussels-based) jurisdiction that ignores Britain’s Parliament, government and judiciary.

    In conclusion, Britain should leave the EU only if ready to exit also the Single Market as well, with a credible plan to re-configure its economy on the basis of some autarkic model that is almost impossible to imagine. No notion is more fanciful than the idea that British democratic sovereignty can be reclaimed through Brexit while Britain stays in the Single Market.

  26. It’s just a first step towards getting a sanely ruled country back.

    I don’t disagree. But for me, I’m not sure I’m willing to upheave my whole life and move back to the UK (which I’d have to do, because I’m not sure my wife would be entitled to French residency) for a “first step”. Show me Mr Ecks as PM machine-gunning leftists and purging the NGOs, etc. and I might. But a first step? It’s a big ask.

  27. KJ: Horseshit on stilts.

    Human beings have been trading with each other since the stone age. The idea that political and bureaucratic shite do anything to assist that process is thought-free bollocks.

    The single market is politically contrived con game. Abolish all the bullshit laws and then see who trades with who. It is no justification whatsoever for the scummy EU’s antics.

  28. Tim Newman: Well what are you going to do otherwise?

    Delighted as I would be to lead a grand purge of statism/leftism that is like trying to teleport somewhere when walking is our only realistic option.

    How much better are things going to get if we give the EU cunts a massive victory and a licence to do what they like and laugh in our face at the same time?

    The EU will fall anyway–like socialism–but the only question is how many lives is it going to fuck up in the process? Quite a lot the way things are looking.

    I’m sorry for your problems BUT… Suppose you had found an equally comfortable billet in Vichey France. Should D-Day have been postponed indefinitely so that your domestic arrangements don’t suffer? There will be hurt from Brexit sure–but the good done will far outweigh the harm.

  29. “The Leave campaign has many noble followers on this blog, but it appears to be appallingly led (as does the Stay campaign).”

    You are right, Mr Newman – same problem with UKIP. Fundamentally the right policies, but run mainly by a string of 3rd rate, over-enthusiastic idiots.

  30. Apparently nobody in the EU trades with nations outside the EU. And yet somehow, we see lots of references to containers full of products from China, who are not in the EU. How can this be?

    The idea that we need to be “in the single market” is bollocks on stilts.

  31. The biggest problem with the “leave campaign” is that the Tories are running a front group called Vote Leave who seem to be actually looking to manouever us into a “second tier” status within the EU, using a Leave vote as a bargaining chip.

    Which both Boris Johnson and Michael Howard have surfaced to argue for, one may note.

  32. So Much For Subtlety said:
    “Leaving means that Britain gets better in one way – we would be able to deport terrorists to such notorious torture havens like Italy and France. ”

    If only. But we’ll still be stuck with the ECHR, our own useless socialist government and our limp-dicked judiciary.

    And on immigration, there’s been plenty of problematic non-EU immigration that is purely the fault of our own governments.

    I’m still a supporter of “leave”, but it’s only the start of the struggle.

  33. “containers full of products from China”

    Indeed, and I wonder how often members of the Government visit supermarkets? Although many fruit and vegetables come from Spain and The Netherlands, who will obviously want never to sell us anything ever again, I can’t help noticing that Kenya, Morocco, Egypt, and other non-EU nations supply a fair chunk of that on display. And, who knows? Perhaps outside the CAP, British farmers might actually be able to go back to growing things, instead of fertilising increasing numbers of forms for set-aside, and turning instead to property development.

  34. IanB
    I don’t care if Johnson and Howard are arguing in bad faith. Whether Out with a wink, Out with a renegotiation, Out with a reform, or out-and-out Out, the thing is to get the Out vote out.

  35. “And on immigration, there’s been plenty of problematic non-EU immigration that is purely the fault of our own governments.”

    In order to keep total immigration down, because they can’t affect immigration from EU countries, they’ve been taking it out on Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders etc.

  36. @”tjamesjones
    February 29, 2016 at 11:33 am

    actually I think this is the only material negative impact of Brexit – undoubtedly the remaining EU states won’t make it easy for Brits to live and work in the rump EU.

    or are we all just happy with shouldve couldve wouldve

    In Spain, Greece etc, it is very hard for anyone to work at the moment. I think we would gain more than we lose.

  37. Suppose you had found an equally comfortable billet in Vichey France. Should D-Day have been postponed indefinitely so that your domestic arrangements don’t suffer?

    Of course not. Vote how you must. But as an individual weighing up the balance, it’s marginal in a way that D-Day wasn’t.

  38. The danger with EuroTories like Johnson and Howard is their taking control of the narrative and dragging us into another renegotiation and another vote, which both have intimated they want an Out vote to lead to.

    In general with this, the bottom line is that this is the last chance to get out that we aren’t going to get. We won’t be asked again. If we don’t leave now, we don’t leave. This is not something to be judged on short term cost/benefit.

  39. Ian>

    “The biggest problem with the “leave campaign” is…”

    To my mind the biggest problem with the ‘leave campaign’ is that it’s a campaign to give more power to the bastards in Westminster, so it won’t make any real difference to anything.

    Out of interest, where would the ‘leavers’ here stand on a proposal to abolish Westminster, keep or slightly reduce EU powers, and let local governments have all the rest of the power?

    It does seem a bit odd to describe the EU as part of the minarchist solution, but some form of federal European government is clearly part of having the least possible government, doing only those things that only a government can do.

  40. Dave–“Out of interest, where would the ‘leavers’ here stand on a proposal to abolish Westminster, keep or slightly reduce EU powers, and let local governments have all the rest of the power? ”

    Public execution for any loon advocating such mad piffle with their last meal to be the Liberian Blue-Plate special–ie their own ears cooked with rice.

    Yes the overblown MPukes are trouble but the EU as minimal govt is beyond mad.

    And what is the deal with this local govt crap? The only good thing about it would be that they wouldn’t have the money to hire enough professional muscle to be able to stop you from going round and beating your local councillor to death in his/her own living room.

    Participatory democracy I think they call it.

  41. “Americans can’t go to Europe?”

    It’s not visiting, but living there and working there. Americans can do that, if allowed, but not as a right, unless they’ve got dual nationality.

    Still, Germany has apparently decided to allow many hundreds of thousands of non-EU people in, with little formality, so perhaps after Leaving, people could simply go there instead of France and Spain.

  42. visiting, but living there and working there. Americans can do that, if allowed, but not as a right, unless they’ve got dual nationality.

    The application is a fucking nightmare.

  43. And of course the trade with Portugal came about because France and Spain were off and on at war with England for most of the last 500 years, so no trade, and indeed Germany restricted trade with the UK.

    Incidentally the oldest active international treaty in the World is between England (and thus now the UK) and Portugal: The Treaty of Windsor 1386.

  44. @Tim Newman

    ‘Anyone who disagrees is invited to visit a French prefecture and then come and tell me that submitting papers…’

    I did that in 2002… I think the UK was in the EU then correct?

    I have lived here since.

    I had to show that I would have “une résidence régulière” which included me providing financial information to show that I had the means to support myself and health insurance (before I could apply for the French State scheme), birth certificate and passport but first I was directed back to the local Marie to obtain Une Carte de Séjour… which was not required for EU citizens, but, well c’est la France.

    I was lucky because in other departments a certified French translation of any documents in English was needed, but in my department they accepted the English version.

    Then of course the French tried to kick people out of its health system, whom it had previously insisted must join, and recently has been charging non-residents Social Security charges on property sales contrary to EU rules and now must pay it back… once they have ‘studied’ the EU ruling.

    So please ladies and gentlemen let us stop pretending that being part of the EU makes everything Oh so simple and it will be Oh so difficult outside.

    In any case the majority of the UK population does not want to live on the Continent, so why should tens of millions be disadvantaged for a few?

  45. “Incidentally the oldest active international treaty in the World is between England (and thus now the UK) and Portugal: The Treaty of Windsor 1386.”

    That’s something of a myth. First of all, it’s largely a restatement of the 1373 Anglo-Portuguese treaty. More importantly, even if it’s in effect today, it hasn’t been continuously so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Treaty_of_1373

    There are various other candidates, all of which have their own strengths and weaknesses.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Covenant_(Iceland) – not still active, but active for longer than the Anglo-Portuguese agreement
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Perth
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_York – still active, but is Scotland a country, or is it not international?

  46. John B,

    I am well aware that the French don’t know the rules and refuse to apply them: I had to get the EU ombudsman to force them to issue my wife a carte de sejour, which involved two calls to the immigration minister himself. Had my wife not had the right to French residency under EU laws, they’d probably never have issued it. So yes, I am aware that France is a fucking nightmare but at least I had the final recourse to the law to force the French to do what they are supposed to do. Absence this right under EU law, I very probably would have had to leave France.

  47. If it is a leave vote I would expect British people already living in EU will be accomodated as part of the arrangement/negotiations or there will be a human rights case to establish that they can’t be discriminated against, either way I doubt hordes of British retirees will be flooding back to UK

  48. The leaving process takes two years anyway. It’s not like everything just stops the day after the Referendum.

  49. Ian>

    Well, the _EU_ says it takes two years. If you’re leaving the EU, though, it takes just as long as you let it take.

  50. I can’t imagine that if it is Leave, and we do leave, that the government, whoever it may be, won’t follow the Lisbon Treaty process.

  51. Why should the status of the UK as an EU member be predicated on the special interests of Brits who have buggered off abroad, or EU foreigners who harbour notions of maybe coming here sometime?

  52. Why should the status of the UK as an EU member be predicated on the special interests of Brits who have buggered off abroad, or EU foreigners who harbour notions of maybe coming here sometime?

    Nobody is saying it should.

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