55 comments on “More sex numbers

  1. “Russian” hooker I knew once, turned up in Bangkok as fresh meat aged 19 or so. Because she was new in town she was in high demand and got through 10 customers her first night before her madam said “that’s enough, honey”. That was a one-off, never repeated. Usual number was 1-4.

  2. “Each day women had to pay up to £250 in rent, as well as up to £60 a day for a maid (who, in practice, often operated like a pimp, sometimes controlling which sex buyers the women saw), plus a range of other expenses. On average, a woman was paid for sex by 76 men each week.”

    “Up to” means “we found a woman who did this”. A single high-end hooker working in Mayfair, probably making £500/hr.

    Most of the industry doesn’t have maids. Read reviews on Adultwork – bookings are made for a time by web and cellphone.

    And yes, 76 a week is bullshit. Even in olden times, 10 a day? All that tech has introduced lots of part time workers. Women who will see 1 or 2 clients a night at most. Students who do a couple of nights a week. I doubt the average is more than 3 or 4 clients a day.

    Look, this is why lots of women do it – it’s not so much that you get rich from it, it’s that it’s a fast way to make money. It’s why lots of single mothers do it – it means not being away from kids.

  3. If your john shags you for five minutes, then 10 blokes is only fifty minutes. Not too onerous?

    @Anon

    “Up to” means “we found a woman who did this”. A single high-end hooker working in Mayfair, probably making £500/hr.

    Nah – I’m, no expert on hookers, but if you’re paying £500 per hour you want your hour.
    Assuming post shag she does a bit of washing and freshening up/new make-up, and possibly travelling to her next gig, she’d be working (say) twenty hours a day. If real, this is streetish hookers, surely.

  4. Interested,

    First of all, 5 minutes? Doesn’t happen. People pay by time. Absolute minimum is 15 minutes. 30 is normal. On top of that, there isn’t like this queue of men hiring women. Apart from preparation etc, there’s a lot of dead time.

    Also, street whoring was the same. Girls stood around for long periods waiting for johns. Of course, street whoring is basically dead. They arrange johns to visit with cellphones now. The SJWs that think Sweden has been a huge success haven’t caught up with this yet, though.

  5. ^ Yeah I guess (re street girls) – I guess really I am saying that your £500/hour example is unlikely too.

    (I have never used a hooker and have no knowledge of their world mind you.)

  6. http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf?q=venkatesh

    Table 3. Average number of tricks per day is just under 2.

    This is an ethnographic study over two years in Chicago. So real in depth data with a decent sample size.

    The study she cites is a 1996 paper. The sample size is 30, with interviews of 14.

    The numbers make no sense. According to the data they pay between 120 and 250 a day for rent and 30-60 per day to the maid. So they report they need to do the 10 of the £15 tricks before they have broken even. The women report they aim to do 20 tricks a day.

    In 1996 central London, a single flat with a toilet and basin but no shower in (I assume Soho) that costs £120-250 a night? Assume 5 days a week @£200, annual rental income is £52,000. In Chicago the prostitutes paid 25% to their pimps.

    Also if we take their numbers as correct, 76 tricks a week @£15 = 1140 and (taking the middle of the range of values given) daily cost of £185 for rent + £45 for the maid @ 5 days a week = 1150, there is no money left for the prostitute. So I call bollox to this paper.

  7. I think we are looking at this the wrong way. We should be celebrating these women. They have found something they excel at. I doubt many men could have sex seven times a night. Six, perhaps. As long as the football wasn’t on, but seven? No.

    It is interesting that she claims the number is seven. Because by an interesting coincidence, that is the number of goals by which the Australian Women’s Football team lost to an Under-14 Schoolboy team from Newcastle (I assume the Australian sh!thole of that name, not the UK sh!thole with the copy of the Sydney Harbour Bridge):

    http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2016/05/biology-7-sociology-0.html

  8. Anon,

    The SJWs that think Sweden has been a huge success haven’t caught up with this yet

    Anecdotally, a lot of Swedes are getting it abroad instead of at home. Just as we off-shored our heavy industry (and the accompanying pollution) to China, the Swedes have off-shored their sex work industry to Thailand.

  9. Interested,

    “I guess really I am saying that your £500/hour example is unlikely too.”

    Maybe I didn’t spell it out clearly, but that was my point. There are women paying £250/day for rent and £60 (or more) for a maid, but they’re the £500/hr stunning blonde 21 year olds in Mayfair who are a tiny percentage of the industry. If you’re charging that much, you’re doing a gold-plated service. You make sure there’s a person to answer the phone rather than voicemail. It’s worth the cost. It’s affordable for the cost of the service.

  10. Andrew M,

    “Anecdotally, a lot of Swedes are getting it abroad instead of at home. Just as we off-shored our heavy industry (and the accompanying pollution) to China, the Swedes have off-shored their sex work industry to Thailand.”

    There’s actually been a growth in Thai massage parlours in Stockholm since the laws were introduced.

    Look, this is one of these things that’s just political theatre. It’s like the French raiding Google or the kangaroo courts over tax in this country. You do some activity with some journalists along for the ride and people who care about this sort of thing feel the government is doing something about a problem.

  11. Just as we off-shored our heavy industry (and the accompanying pollution) to China, the Swedes have off-shored their sex work industry to Thailand.

    To be fair, that’s also partly because Swedes would rather do their shagging in the warm sunshine than in the snow and in the dark. But yeah, I do meet a lot of Thai bar owners who speak Swedish.

  12. Why do you doubt it? Do you actually know anything about the subject?

    When you’ve fallen into ice, ten is not enough.

    You comment around this subject a lot. Why? Some sort of catholic guilt, or don’t you get enough?

  13. Arnald,

    Why do you doubt it?

    Because the numbers seem implausible. Therefore there is doubt, therefore the evidence needs to be stronger.

    When you’ve fallen into ice, ten is not enough.

    WTFF are you wibbling about? Ice as in crystal meth?

  14. SE

    Yes, Ice as in Meth. Is that hard to understand?

    You’re another one that knows fuck all about this, obviously. Do you live in the same smug bubble as Timothy?

    What more evidence do you need? Are the testimonies from the women that are actually doing it not enough? Or are they somehow part of a plot to undermine your all-knowing self-belief, and a leftist coup?

    Turning ten tricks doesn’t get you much. You all must seem to think that the sex trade is like Pretty Woman.

  15. Lawrence. Talking about knowing fuck all, there isn’t an ‘ice’ problem in the UK. Most junkies wouldn’t know what you meant by ‘ice’. It’s not widely available, almost no-one does it.

  16. Anyhow, the Co-op Bank’s Crystal Methodist was a buyer rather than a seller in the market for sex.

    Time for the Arnster (am I going to have to learn to call him Lazza henceforth?) to remove his tongue from Murphy’s fundament temporarily and go back to watering his tomatoes.

  17. What more evidence do you need? Are the testimonies from the women that are actually doing it not enough?

    In science, testimonies from participants are known as anecdote. In science commentary, “evidence” made up of a collection of anecdotes is usually referred to as “anecdata”.

    “Social” science, which isn’t what Kat Banyard is about – she’s a campaigner – uses anecdata far too often.

    Interestingly, Banyard being a Brit, she ought to know that prostitution isn’t a criminal offence in England & Wales, or in Scotland.

  18. 76 tricks a week @£15 = 1140 and (taking the middle of the range of values given) daily cost of £185 for rent + £45 for the maid @ 5 days a week = 1150, there is no money left for the prostitute. So I call bollox to this paper.

    It says “Prices are informally fixed across the area, and vary according to the particular service asked for, and the amount of time spent with the client, starting at £15”

    Taking the cheapest possible price invalidates your analysis.

  19. Just for Arnie I did check on AW and to be fair there are 30 listed for Jersey and only 8 female SW’s for Guernsey (I’m assuming he doesn’t bat for the other side) so the sample size for him is limited. If my friend Lucy tours there again, I’ll let you know and you can have a punt and she will dispel these gullible notions you seem to have swallowed whole.

  20. Lawrence or Arnald or whatever you’re calling yourself, today.

    Do you have a reliable source for this “ice” you’re going on about. Be interesting, because crystal’s actually quite hard to get hold of in the UK compared with charlie or E’s. The only regular users I’ve ever heard of are the Thai working girls in the West End.
    Or maybe it’s vended from the 150,000 Vietnamese Nailbars are such a feature of every British street

  21. “who, in practice, often operated like a pimp, sometimes controlling which sex buyers the women saw”

    I really fail to see how this is a problem at all – surely this is a good thing.

    Ah yes drunk man looking ready to puke go on through.
    Man coked up to the eyeballs slapping himself in the face – go on ahead the girl will see you now.
    Five drunk rugger-buggers go ahead she’s waiting.
    Angry looking man with tattooed eyeballs who keeps scratching an open sore on his arm, can’t see a problem here.
    Nervous looking man who keeps clenching his fists and muttering angrily to himself, what could possibly go wrong.

  22. SJW

    I’d missed that. They dont give a range. If we assume that the pricing follows the same pattern as the Chicago paper – cheapest = manual, oral = 50-80% more, vaginal = 200% manual, with far more oral than the others.

    Assume that the average per punter/act is 70% more than base of £15. the prostitute generates 1938 a week and keeps 788 vs 1150 going on rent/maid (without other costs cited).

    One of the reasons that I used £15 was that the minimum maid + rent = £150 and the number to cover this was cited as 10.

    I still dont believe the paper. One reason is that this was supposed to be “preliminary findings from ongoing empirical study”, but I cannot find a paper on the final results. But the numbers just look odd. I have doubts even about the Chicago paper’s findings, but the data is more complete.

  23. MC

    I’m assuming your getting your ‘facts’ from the Daily Mail.

    Sure meth is not as prevalent as crack, but don’t spout nonsense.Users spend more on that shit, and it’s nastier derivatives, than the relatively sane diamorphine addicts.

    Yaba is freely available.

    But of course asking people what actually goes on,shoudn’t be trusted. Do you think the women would overstate what they have to do?

    Are anyone of you remotely aware how this ‘free market’ of servicing actually means?

    And yeah, I do know what I’m talking about, I spent 18 years living in Brixton, Camberwell and Peckham. For a couple of years a block away from the delightful Coldharbour Lane.The closest you lot get to the gritty is fucking West Dulwich school for wankers.

    A girl ,a friend, and her bloke got into the habit, all manner of habits. She was sold to fund it.

    I suspect you pay for someone to do the dishes and fetch your slippers. Probably not in England, despite fellating Farage.

    And still you deny that it happens. How old are you, most of you?

  24. Machiavelli: Just for Arnie I did check on AW and to be fair there are 30 listed for Jersey and only 8 female SW’s for Guernsey (I’m assuming he doesn’t bat for the other side)

    You’re OK with that assumption, Mark spotted him in a queue:

    Nervous looking man who keeps clenching his fists and muttering angrily to himself.

  25. Whilst no one knows exactly how many sex workers (a term that covers cam and phone girls, strippers, dancers, some masseuses, dominants as well as the obvious) there are in the UK the number is estimated to be somewhere between 80k and 100k. Not all of these are women (whether cis or trans) and not all of them will engage in penetrative sexual activities.

    For the sake of argument lets go with the lower bound and say that half of those provide services which involve penetration.

    40,000 people screwing 76 men a week is a little over 3m instances a week… or something like a tenth of the entire male population.

    Anyone still think that figure is legit?

  26. The usual number is that 10% of all men have, at one point in their life, engaged in commercial sex. No, that’s not dinner for a shag, that’s “How much? There you go.” Some 1% possibly do this on a regular basis.

    All of which brings our numbers back into line. 40 k on the game, 2 or 3 punters a day, days off….we’re about there.

  27. Arsenald: I lived on Coldharbour Lane. You’re talking bollocks. It wasn’t fucking Escape from New York. I used to walk home from Brixton tube at night. Never got touched.

  28. Gilly

    All I said about Coldharbour lLane was that it was delightful.I never got touched even carrying a grands worth of kit.

    Did you frequent the estates left and right if you walked towards Camberwell? Or did you get the bus up to Streatham where you get crack whores (a disgusting description) for £25 for ten minutes?

    And now look at Timothy’s justification for his bollocks numbers. It beggars belief.

    Timothy. Please don’t pretend.

    All of which brings our numbers back into line. 40 k on the game, 2 or 3 punters a day, days off….we’re about there

    Two or Three?! And laughably you still use the antiquated “on the game”. It’s like you think life is a Carry On film.

    oo missus.

    You didn’t go to school, you went to some sort of fantasy island.

  29. Or did you get the bus up to Streatham where you get crack whores (a disgusting description) for £25 for ten minutes?

    So you are saying that, in your experience, the £15 figure is bollocks?

  30. Clarissa

    I guess I should have expexted this from you. But wtf?

    You’ve said you haven’t a clue about the stats. The stats will be bollocks. The sex, and drug, trade is dark, who’s going to admit ten johns?

    It’s more than ten on a desperate day. What I saw, if they had the crack or ice,they don’t sleep, the food was a tin of that Nourishment milk/vitamin drink, then they carry on.

    How the hell do you have an opinion when it’s based on utter shit.

    Judging by Timothy’s insipid commentary, it looks like he’s visited an escort, not going to judge because whatever, but like Clarissa, it ain’t real life. Not by a long way.

    Like most of this ‘blog’.

  31. Surrept

    No, what are you arguing? £25 is a doggy in the park. £15 is a pump in a coke dealer’s spare room. You can get an outdoor blow job for a tenner behind a van off the Streatham Road. A five if you’ve got a pipe.

    I don’t understand the confusion here. Timothy knows dick, yet all you loveboys believe him.

  32. You appear to have me at a disadvantage Lawrence because I don’t think we’ve met…

    Do I know exactly how many sex workers there are in the UK? No – and nor does anyone else which is why I said it was an estimate.

    This goes with 80k
    http://people.exeter.ac.uk/watupman/undergrad/aac/scale.htm

    Whilst this goes with 100k
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/prostitution-in-the-united-kingdom-sex-work-and-students-debt/5485565

    And this government report says 50 to 80k
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303927/A_Review_of_the_Literature_on_sex_workers_and_social_exclusion.pdf

    The sex-workers you are talking about are those engaged in survival work, often street based, to make ends meet or to manage their addiction. These are not the majority even if they are the ones most of need of non-judgemental help.

    The 10% of men in a lifetime figure is the product of research. It may even be an underestimation due to people not being willing to admit to doing so. That 10% of the male population of the country do so in one week is, as I said, bollocks.

    As always Maggie McNeill is the best source of information on the subject: https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com

  33. Methamphetamines are not a major drug in the UK. See table 1 from here

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/462885/drug-misuse-1415.pdf

    Meth is used by 0.1% of the adult population (almost certainly rounded up here), while the total percentage of drug users is 8.6%.

    This puts meth on a par with opiates or crack, and a fraction of users of cannabis (6.4%), cocaine (2.4%), hallucinogens (0.7%), ecstasy (1.7%). The numbers and proportion are slightly higher for 16-24 year olds, but meth is still a small fraction.

  34. The Arnster (in his day) sooo hard:

    I never got touched even carrying a grands worth of kit.

    Streatham where you get crack whores […] for £25 for ten minutes

    The sex, and drug, trade is dark

    £25 is a doggy in the park. £15 is a pump in a coke dealer’s spare room. You can get an outdoor blow job for a tenner behind a van off the Streatham Road. A five if you’ve got a pipe.

    What I saw, if they had the crack or ice,they don’t sleep, the food was a tin of that Nourishment milk/vitamin drink, then they carry on.

    Are the movie rights still negotiable? JuliaM could tell us if this could be the Trainspotting of our generation.

    Or is it more Tarantino? Woof!

    Go and water your grow-bags, Arnie.

  35. Lawrence – “£25 is a doggy in the park. £15 is a pump in a coke dealer’s spare room. You can get an outdoor blow job for a tenner behind a van off the Streatham Road. A five if you’ve got a pipe.”

    My view of life in Guernsey has been changed completely. Here I was thinking that it was unlikely a single person on this blog had ever met a meth-smoking tweaker and it turns out that in sunny, grassy, obscenely middle class Guernsey they are all over the place.

    Live and learn.

  36. Bison

    So yeah, you know dick all. You’d go running to mummy if you walked half as far in my shoes you pathetic twat.

    SMuFF, have you ever met an ice dependent person?

    I’m getting ken’s irrelevant point – crystal is not as mainstream as say crack. But it does have it’s market. Also I wasn’t going to bother doing a Guernsey but in the last few years there’s been two cases of ice producers getting found out. Breaking Bad and that.

    It’s not the drug that’s important though, is it? You clueless guys can’t accept that life is hard for sex workers. Timothy constantly rubbishes the trafficking numbers, he believes that the sex trade is a fair consensual and economic arrangement and you egg him on with your ignorance.

    And you all think you’re more intelligent than everyone else. *timothy facepalm emoticon*

    Come on, Bison, on JuliaM’s behalf, if you’re in the production business, do something real. You may want to hook up with my film director/screenwriter friend and my film editor guy.

    You are beneath contempt.

  37. Clarissa, and ken.

    Timothy’s thread is this:

    On average, a woman was paid for sex by 76 men each week.
    Ten and more punters a day, that’s assuming no days off?

    I sorta doubt it, really.

    He finds it funny that there could be days off, or that a worker would need to work that hard to get through the day.

    As you’ve intimated, there will never be concrete statistics of who is doing what and how but it takes a simpleton to play down the wanton trauma that those girls go through.

    Would you respond to a ‘survey’ if you were a crack-whore? Or, indeed, a pusher?

  38. Actual, you know, real life women who rent out their bodies for the sexual enjoyment of men, whores have responded to my questioning of these numbers. And they say the original assertion, 76 a week, is bullshit.

    And?

  39. Bollocks, Timothy, sorry.

    Your survey of one escort? Of course the business class girls that give and get a clean job done are quite happy to tell you so. Fair play to them.

    10 Johns a day for the majority of sex workers is on the low side.

    Do the fucking maths, econo-boy.

    How much do I need, how many hours are there, what’s my pusher’s rate.

    Sex work isn’t wining and dining for most, it’s a sad and guilty ritual for people who have nothing left, giver or receiver.

    You constantly come across as a clueless fantasist.

    You should come to Guernsey, cunty boy, you can choose from some decent class Latvians, and your pick of Thai manicurists.

  40. I have to add, you’re so innocent, aren’t you Timothy?

    Any of you know the pub opposite the old King’s Cross Midland. I know it’s all been done up and that, but that street hasn’t gone.

    Regardless of the licensing laws, it was open nine while nine, the back room was basically a couple of girls naked walking round with a pint glass for tips. Probably four of them revolving. Being generous on the blokes’s side, 15-20 minutes in one of the rooms above the snug?

    If those desperates didn’t make as many tricks they wouldn’t get a roof or a share of some foil.

    Can you give me your sex worker’s number? She sounds ok.

  41. The 76/week number comes from a survey of prostitutes working in Central London (presumably Soho). Are you (Tim W) saying that the researchers made it up, or that the prostitutes surveyed exaggerated wildly?

  42. But this is the point. We are doing the math. There simply aren’t enough punters for a bird on the game to be getting 10 punters a day, day in, day out. One of the commenters here knows the economics of this game intimately. He;s the one who keeps guffawing at the maths being done.

  43. Surely the market is not homogeneous. Women operating in high traffic locations (Soho) with relatively high overheads (central London rents) will have more clients. Woman at the cheaper end of the market in a given location will have more clients.

    If you’re saying that the 76 per week quoted is well above average for uk prostitutes in general, I believe you. If you’re saying that it’s not somewhere near the truth for the particular women surveyed, well, I can’t see why it wouldn’t be easier to report truth than falsehood. The researchers who reported these numbers knew a lot about the game also.

  44. SJW

    The problem is that the original article is trying to make this tiny unreliable study the benchmark. Tim is quite right the average is going to be far far less.

    Arnald
    Crack is not very common either. Cocaine is, but not crack.

  45. Ken

    I’m not sure where you’ve lived, but using percentage use by population is always going to be very small. It’s one of the arguments against the “war on drugs”, there isn’t a nationwide plague.

    But there are sections of society where the stronger drugs are the only game in town.

    SJW is referring to Soho, but jesus, the Kings Cross area (probably moved northwards by now) and the south London parks have loads of streetwalkers.

    As the market does, whenever there’s a ready demand, then there’s a fuck load of suppliers.

    If the rate is a tenner for fellation, how many transactions are needed to pay the fencer, pay for a roof, and pay for the gear?

    Timothy knows fuck all about this, yet another subject he tries to be clever on, but ends up looking like some shit-eater grinning cock.

  46. Arnald

    But Tim is correct. The original article is insinuating the claim that 76 a week is the average for all. It comes from a crap 30 person survey (the 100 is a wider community), with highly questionable numbers. I have no doubt that some prostitutes do work at this intensity, but I’d put far more trust in the Chicago survey, which says the mean is 2 a day.

    With the drugs the point is that it is a tiny proportion of society and thus a small proportion of prostitutes. Yes, certain drugs make people desperate and they may become prostitutes who do a lot of business as a result, but they are not the bulk of the industry. meth users in the UK are probably around 25-35k, of whom a small proportion will be prostitutes. Your personal views do not change the data.

  47. The original article is insinuating the claim that 76 a week is the average for all
    That’s not the way it reads to me. I think it’s unusually clear that the 76/week relates to this particular study.

  48. SJW

    The paragraph before ends with ” or the highly specific abuses that so commonly characterise women’s entry into it.”

    Note the use of the word “commonly”. There are no other numbers on the frequency of clients in the article. Ergo, a rational person would take this to mean that the author wishes us to draw the conclusion that 76 a week is a norm. And most people with no knowledge would do so. Only once it is run through the basic BS test of does this square with the likely population can we see that it is not a mean for all – Tim is quite correct. You might want to read it as just referring to a single study, but that is not the way I would read it. (In fact if I’d run into it in passing, I would have assumed that it was a true representation of prostitution.)

    I also remain doubtful about the quality of this study having looked at it.

  49. “…the highly specific abuses that so commonly characterise women’s entry into it.

    Research by the British Medical Journal found that, in three UK cities, half of women in outdoor prostitution, and a quarter of women in indoor prostitution, reported having been subject to violence by a sex buyer in the previous six months. Of the violence they had ever experienced at the hands of sex buyers, women on the streets most frequently reported being kicked, slapped or punched, while women in saunas or flats most frequently reported attempted rape (17% of women based indoors had experienced this, as had 28% of women on the streets)”

    Obviously the statistics about violence are quantifying the “abuses”. The following sentence explains that while prostitutes working indoors in property rented for the purpose are somewhat safer, they have to see more clients in order to meet their overheads. With illustrative statistics which it clearly states are specific to one London-based study.

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