Questions in the Observer we can answer

Dump the metropolitan SJW stuff, all the LGBTWTF stuff, the waaacism, and get back to doing something about making the working class life better.

You know, that thing the Labour Party was set up to do instead of being colonised by whatever today’s bubble concern is?

Labour is moving close to disaster. How can it reconnect with its roots?

47 comments on “Questions in the Observer we can answer

  1. I’ve been trying to make this point elsewhere with the left. I also add spend some time thinking about how wealthy is created not just thinking about redistribution, a bigger pie is better for all of us.

  2. The fly in the ointment is that the working class (people actually in work and paid weekly, say) is much smaller than it was fifty years ago and pretty much at odds with Labour’s other support groups like the ‘enlightened’ middle class, people on long term unemployemnt benefits and immigrants.

    Stuffed.

  3. Brian, follower of Deornot

    Quite right. It’s also missing a thy after the fifth ‘a’ and the ‘c’ should be removed.

  4. What TMB says. Labour’s core constituency is no longer the working class: it’s government dependents (either via employment or welfare). If they promise to push up pensions they could capture more of the grey vote, and secure themselves a long-term majority. Obviously they’ll have to get rid of Corbyn first.

  5. “Two dozen of my white, working-class interviewees in Dagenham prefaced statements to me by saying: “I’m not a racist, but…””

    I’m astonished he could find two dozen white working class people in Dagenham!

  6. The left is essentially an alliance of people who don’t want straight, white Christian men running the place, even though they are aguably the best at it. If you’re queer, brown or female the left has a place for you, especially if you hate Christians. Enevitably, some parts of that alliance, white working class men, for example, come to realise they are in an allience with people who care nothing for them.

    And as socialism is nothing more than rebranded feudalism, in truth it has nothing to offer the working class anyway.

  7. Its means of engaging with the working class was the trade unions. They are now widely, and rightly, despised, and their membership is now largely confined to the employees of government and other monopolies. Some features remain, though; they are still often led by commies, even though they presumably can no longer depend on Moscow gold.

  8. It is not so much that they include the Lettuce Bacon Tomato fraternity. It is that they are no longer willing to compromise. They view anyone who does not share their insanity as evil. The Labour Party always had people who thought the White working class was evil, but they compromised. They got on with other people to produce a more mainstream agenda.

    The Labour Party ought to be the natural party of government. It offers people free stuff. They just can’t do that and offer fiscal discipline. Blair was very successful in trying both. But his success lead to arrogance and now the Fruit Salad community doesn’t think it needs or wants anyone else.

  9. Stop referring to them as “uneducated whites” would be a start, or at least be even handed and also refer to “uneducated blacks”.

    Stop calling them racists and fascists because they have an English flag on their house and think it is a good idea not to import a million foreigners a year.

    Oh, and

    that their quest for meritocracy was incompatible with patriotism.

    I missed the Left’s “quest for meritocracy”. When did that happen?

  10. One of the assumptions the likes of Owen Jones, Moonbat, Ritchie and others make is that once the working class get their voice, they’ll turn to the likes of them for wisdom and leadership.

    They don’t imagine they’ll turn to Farage or Trump.

    And now they have, these voters are treated with scorn. ‘You were supposed to vote for us – not them’.

  11. Adrian – yes, and there’s a similar assumption amongst revolutionary socialists. The fact that the Freikorps are likely to kerb stomp the Spartacists never seems to occur to them.

  12. Gest is a fascist (most everyone is today).

    The business model of political parties is to put together a coalition of voters that will win them elections. The dangled carrot is, “Vote for us, and we’ll do stuff for you.”

    As governments should treat everyone the same, doing stuff for groups is wrong. It is abuse of power.

    Some Republicans, perhaps I’m a lower case republican, think liberty and freedom are for everyone. Government should be colorblind. Government should not use words like “rich” and “poor.” Replace “women” with “people.”

    Once you allow government to treat people differently, they will. A strong, autocratic central government will appear, wielding power for the favored, against the unfavored.

    A political party that fights for liberty and freedom doesn’t need to concern itself with any group distinction. When Republicans start acting like Democrats – “We need to go after the Hispanic vote!” – they are demolishing their foundation. I occasionally hear people claim that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. In this sense, they are correct.

  13. The working class certainly still exist – the people who empty the bins, the people working in shops, restaurants, warehouses, driving for Hermes. They just aren’t unionised.

    Working class manufacturing hardly exists any longer. I’m working in a company that’s classed as manufacturing, but we have more people writing software for the machines than putting the machines together in the factory section. And I doubt any of the people in the factory are unionised. Why bother? If you don’t like the job, you go and get another.

    The purpose of unions was to act against monopoly power. If someone ran a mill in a village, people couldn’t easily leave. So, they had to work at the mill. But at the same time, the employer couldn’t easily get more people. So, by striking, they could cease production, so employers had to work with unions. Along comes the motor car in large numbers, and the world changes. Employers can easily hire people to come in and work if the employees go on strike and employees can easily leave to get another job. What value is union membership?

    The real problem here is that Labour supporters are useless lazy fuckers who don’t care. It used to be that Labour was full of people who would give up their time to say, educate the working class, but today, they’re nearly all just grabbing at what they can get. They care about libraries, but not enough to go and spend an hour working in one. The village near me that converted a phonebox into a book swap was just a guy in the village who approached BT and got it done.

  14. “There were plotters, there was no doubt about it. Some had been ordinary people who’d had enough. Some were young people with no money who objected to the fact that the world was run by old people who were rich. Some were in it to get girls. And some had been idiots as mad as Swing, with a view of the world just as rigid and unreal, who were on the side of what they called ‘the people’. Vimes had spent his life on the streets, and had met decent men and fools and people who’d steal a penny from a blind beggar and people who performed silent miracles or desperate crimes every day behind the grubby windows of little houses, but he’d never met The People.

    People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people.
    As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up. What would run through the streets soon enough wouldn’t be a revolution or a riot. It’d be people who were frightened and panicking. It was what happened when the machinery of city life faltered, the wheels stopped turning and all the little rules broke down. And when that happened, humans were worse than sheep. Sheep just ran; they didn’t try to bite the sheep next to them.”

    ― Terry Pratchett, Night Watch

  15. Labour’s strategically rubber ducked. It’s a brittle coalition of oddballs and losers held together only by their hatred of normal British people.

    The working class white vote is very much up for grabs. Theresa May has been gifted the opportunity to ensure a conservative generation of domination, through some simple but popular policies:

    * Brexit – bite Trump’s hand off for the trade deal he’s offering, and swiftly conclude talks with interested Commonwealth countries/BRICs. If the EU still wants to play games, it’s worth remembering that no British PM ever lost popularity by bashing the Frogs and the Krauts.

    * Immigration – bugger off, we’re full.

    * Law and order – more jails, harsher sentences for violent and repeat offenders.

    * The environment – fuck the environment. Let’s get fracking and building and producing.

    If Mrs May has the wit to see it (admittedly a doubtful proposition, she looks about as smart as my cat who eats plastic bags) she can stay PM for as long as she likes.

  16. The Inimitable Steve,

    “If Mrs May has the wit to see it (admittedly a doubtful proposition, she looks about as smart as my cat who eats plastic bags) she can stay PM for as long as she likes.”

    I’d say she’s been pretty smart so far. She didn’t jump into bed with a camp on the referendum, then 100% accepted the British public’s opinion, then completely acknowledged that by doing “hard Brexit” and treating the remoaners in parliament with the contempt they deserve.

    What she lacks is media skills. She’s not got that “vision thing” either. And well, good. That’s what I want. Not someone pointlessly apologising for slavery, building a new Millenium dome, HS2 or emoting about Hillsborough. Empty the bins, fix the potholes.

  17. TIS–Correct. Dress-Up has some dim consciousness of what you say hence the Thatcher 2 routine. But her essence is that of a bog-standard BluLabour clown in the style of Camoron. “Sharia is good for you”–says a dozy cow who will never experience it etc, etc.

  18. @Bloke in Wiltshire
    Working class = meaning your job can be outsourced to some overseas bloke.
    Teachers, government workers, doctors, etc. Their jobs can’t be outsourced. And in many cases, they are not net tax payers either. So you get shafted twice. Your job isn’t safe, and you pay money to people who already have a safe job.

  19. BiW–“Dress Up” is the clue. She is doing a Thatcher act as you recount.

    Alongside a shitload of other pronouncements suggesting she has vomited none of the BluLabour gut-rot she is full of. Her Energy bungling and her bullshit “Gubmint is your Pal”speeches show that.

    She has also never met a piece of snooping and tinpot tyrannical lawdoggery that she didn’t like once the Senior Civil Service suggested it to her.

    While she has animal cunning–as does lots of poli-pork–she is thick. As her “Viet prossies” statements to the HoC shows big style.

    She is neither trustworthy or reliable on Brexit or anything else under the Sun.

  20. I was management in a union shop for 16 years. I was management do some stupid things, and the union justly complained.

    But the union also demanded higher pay. Cos they could. It was purely a power play, resulting in the union being embarrassed.

    Unions can be good for workers, but they choose not to be.

  21. Lot of talk here about Labour being rubber-ducked. But let’s be honest. The Tories are floating in a tub with the plug out. OK, they got more votes in the latest ugliness contest. But how often do you come across a Conservative, these days?
    They’ve just as much contempt for working people as Labour. Equally wedded to alphabet soup & all the other special interests. Different skidmark in the same underpants. Three skidmarks if you include the Limp_Dims The only reason people have voted for any of them is there hasn’t been a serious alternative.

  22. MarioTT,

    “Working class = meaning your job can be outsourced to some overseas bloke.
    Teachers, government workers, doctors, etc. Their jobs can’t be outsourced. And in many cases, they are not net tax payers either. So you get shafted twice. Your job isn’t safe, and you pay money to people who already have a safe job.”

    Not necessarily. We aren’t oursourcing bin emptying, dry cleaning or serving lattes to Banglalore, but plenty of software development jobs go that way. And lots of teeth are getting fixed in Poland.

    It’s not really a helpful term any longer, though. Its really more about a socialist definition and pejorative towards management and owners. Is my mate that makes wings for F1 cars working class? What if I tell you he programs a machine to do it now rather than bashing metal?

  23. “Unions can be good for workers, but they choose not to be.”

    Unions are a bureaucracy with egotistical leaders. Need I say any more?

  24. If I can go totaly o/t for a sec, I just stumbled on a photo of Kerry O’Grady, the female Secret Service agent who wouldn’t take a bullet for Trump. Tell me that’s not a bloke.

  25. Martin–If you can’t understand what’s written in postings above you need help.

    You need help anyway cos you are on the wrong thread.

  26. Well, they might start by finding people who know the difference between patriotism and xenophobia, and between culture and race. People who not only know the difference, but show they value it.
    People who know the difference between downtrodden and out of office.
    Not the author then.
    Labour has been drifting away from its core vote for a couple of generations. Mr. Blair managed to ride both horses for a bit, but the divide is now too big. Labour will survive in London, but outside the voters will either switch parties or stay home.
    Initially this will benefit the Conservatives, but once it becomes obvious that Labour can be kept out without voting Conservative their vote will also decline. Expect a new party to rise. Maybe UKIP, maybe someone else.

  27. “Get back to doing something about making the working class life better. You know, that thing the Labour Party was set up to do”

    It may have been set up with those aims, it was soon taken over by the people who just like telling others what to do, who had recognised the massive opportunity for power such aims provided. Thus improving the lot of the working classes was the last thing they wanted to do, because the newly enriched workers could well cease to vote for them and their authoritarian ways. So slowly over time the vestiges of the Old Labour ideal of ‘a champagne lifestyle for the working man, not just the toffs’ is ousted and policies that actively work against the working man are introduced, while still mouthing the same platitudes. Most people struggle to spot the disconnect, hence how Labour have managed to do OK despite Old Labour having died sometime in the 80s. But eventually the veil is lifted, as in Scotland, and then there’s no going back.

    There’s no more likelihood of Labour returning to its roots than the Tories returning to its roots of being a party run by aristocrats. And who is going to believe them anyway?

    Its weird – the Left have managed to take the political ideology of free stuff and sex and drugs and rock’n’roll and paint themselves into a corner where they are the nasty little authoritarians wagging their fingers at everyone, calling them all names under the sun and telling them they can’t do what they want to. Which of course they always were – the socialism and social liberalism were just tools towards the real aim – control.

  28. @ Jim
    Not *soon* – more than a lifetime later. By people who could not remember the times when Trade Unions were actually *needed*.

  29. @John77: You’re right the people who really wanted the working classes to benefit from socialism were in control for a long time, probably as late as the 70s. But the seeds of the middle class SJW control freak types that are in control now were sown pretty early. Labour has a long history of having middle class types at or near the helm, and those are the ones for whom socialism wasn’t a means to an end, it was an end in itself – power.

  30. If Labour is anything like the Democratic Party, it would take them two weeks and three field trips for them to actually find a member of the proletariat.

    And all would be for naught anyway unless someone had the foresight to bring an interpreter along.

  31. Jim: you’re right. My home city was built up by municipal socialism building and investing in infrastructure, working with central government regardless of politics, in the knowledge that working to benefit the whole city would work to benefit the whole city.

    In the late 60s and early 70s the old guard were ejected and that inheritance was taken and squandered on fighting identity wars and the “wrong” governments, and being a city councillor increasingly because a retirement sinicure for those at the upper age end or a holding position on the way to Parliament at the lower end.

    It’s The Guardian write large.

    Oh, and the “fresh young turks” who ousted the dead wood in the 1970s are still there.

  32. There’s no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Modern left wing parties are finally butting up against the fact that reality is deeply inimical to them. They can leap up and down and swear blend that some hairy six footer with a knob and an Adam’s apple is a woman and people will still say, “oh, fuck off“. They can even get pliant legislatures to pass idiotic edicts to that effect and people will say, “oh, fuck right the fuck off“. But their existence, their entire Weltanschauung, depends on this denial of reality. Without it, what have they got? A lot of warmed-over sub-Marxoid shit that has been shown, repeatedly, not to work. At that point, they might as well pack up and go home and concede the field to UKIP. They’re still dangerous and need watching, but they’re dying.

  33. “. . . and get back to doing something about making the working class life better.

    You know, that thing the Labour Party was set up to do”

    But then they’d have to throw out *all* the ‘feel-good’ stuff, stop supporting bad policies because ‘that’s they way I think the world *should* work’ – They’d simply stop being ‘Left’ anymore.

    Can you imagine them throwing out Marxism? Redistributionism? Stepping away from the stance that government is somehow different and special and good compared to all other human group activities?

    They’d basically be libertarian/neo-liberals.

    And those people eat babies!

  34. Off-topic, but still in the same vein.

    According to the anti-trump left, favouring refugees from oppressed minority religious groups in the countries of origin is now bad.

    Because Christians.

    Note that the XO doesn’t say “xtians”, it says religious minorities.

    These guys are being quite easily played now…

  35. Labour are screwed because they do not have an answer to the most important questions of the day: in Scotland, independence; in England, Brexit. A political party that is irrelevant doesn’t last long

  36. @ abacab
    That is making me, almost literally, foam at the mouth. The oppressed minority groups are those *actualy needing* asaylum because Da’esh has instituted a faithocide campaign against Christians, Yazidis, Jews and Shia Muslims.

  37. @ jgh
    Just like Birmingham was built by, er, Joe Chamberlain.
    In my youth Labour claimed the credit for post-War rebuilding because Labour was in power when it would have happened anyhow (and under the Conservatives it would have happened faster) but I have to accept that lots of the Labour Councillors down at the grass roots were doing their (unpaid) best to help their communities. [Since very few employers gave time off with pay (ICI being a praiseworthy exception) most Labour town councillors were retired, or housewives, or trade union officials]

  38. @Mr Ecks, January 29, 2017 at 2:26 pm
    “BiW–“Dress Up” is the clue. She is doing a Thatcher act as you recount.

    Alongside a shitload of other pronouncements suggesting she has vomited none of the BluLabour gut-rot she is full of. Her Energy bungling and her bullshit “Gubmint is your Pal”speeches show that.
    [snip]
    She is neither trustworthy or reliable on Brexit or anything else under the Sun.”

    Mrs May shows her socialist/statist beliefs: to have an industrial strategy at all represents ‘a new approach to government, not just stepping back and leaving business to get on with the job, but stepping up to a new, active role…’

    Mrs May, no, no, no. UK does not need or benefit from a Gov’t industrial strategy – UK needs more Gov’t stepping back and leaving business to get on with the job.

  39. MarioTT said: “Teachers, government workers, doctors, etc. Their jobs can’t be outsourced. And in many cases, they are not net tax payers either. So you get shafted twice. Your job isn’t safe, and you pay money to people who already have a safe job.”

    A job which appears to defy the laws of economics and does not suffer the same downward pressure on wages that freedom of movement in the EU causes, despite there being an estimated 600k EU nationals working in the public sector.

  40. “Here in the United States, downtrodden and perplexed Democrats are faced with a choice of seeking to win back a white, working-class constituency whose support for their party has dwindled in every presidential election cycle since 1992, or double-down on cultivating their coalition of ethnic minorities and white urban cosmopolitans.”

    1) Stop assuming that people of the same ethnic background are all the same.

    2) That’s it.

  41. Jim,

    “Most people struggle to spot the disconnect, hence how Labour have managed to do OK despite Old Labour having died sometime in the 80s. But eventually the veil is lifted, as in Scotland, and then there’s no going back.”

    You have to remember that a lot of people in certain areas were basically born and raised Labour. it’s tribal, almost religious.

    But I think two things are happening: 1) Corbyn is so batshit that those old Labour types won’t vote for him and 2) there’s a generation that have come along after the pit/factory closed that just don’t have that connection to Labour. Labour can’t just put a professional northerner like John Prescott in front of the camera and talk about “the tories” and automatically get votes.

    From noises on the ground, Labour are dead in Copeland and in Stoke, UKIP are neck and neck with Labour.

  42. “You have to remember that a lot of people in certain areas were basically born and raised Labour.”

    Interesting point, BiW. Here in U.S., Democrat used to be genetic. The Millennials are apolitical. That is going to be a long term problem for the Dems.

  43. Julia,–

    “Working class” is (as I’m sure you’ll realize, after reflection)
    is not quite the same thing as “working.” (Prolly not by several generations, I’d guess).

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