They have a point

Majority of Britons think minorities threaten UK culture, report says

Our culture generally thinks that tweens get to go to singalongs without being shredded on the way out. It’s an odd thing to have as a part of a culture for sure but there it is.

54 comments on “They have a point

  1. ““All of us need to educate and motivate the young people around the world so they not only understand their capacity for meaningful impact, but are inspired to act upon it.””

    Blowing themselves up at pop concerts?

  2. JuliaM: Well, they’re thinking Pakis, but did you know:
    * There is an ethnic group that has been introduced to Britain that is more than 6 times as likely than the British, and British assimilable groups, to commit murder.
    * more than 7 times as likely than the British and potential Britons to commit gun offences
    * nearly 4 times more prone to commit rape
    * and 12 times more likely to commit robbery

    It’s not the Pakis, and it’s certainly not the Poles.

    The solution to the kebab problem is pretty simple and pretty final. Perhaps while that’s being solved, we should consider those others who commit terrorism of a more mundane nature?

  3. “We won’t let them change us!”

    The bin has been removed from the railway station I use.

    Nothing to see here.

    It’s as bad as Saddam Husseins PR guy, at least you got the feeling he knew that we knew it was a joke.

  4. Crazy thing is, and I know it won’t be popular with some elements here, there really are plenty of nice, decent Muslims in this country. I know quite a few of them. I think their religious beliefs are utterly fucking nuts but that’s their affair; they are certainly not planning to kill anyone. It seems to me there are two issues. Identifying the few homicidal maniacs from the mass of normal people, and then dealing with the homicidal maniacs. This latest guy in Manchester was identified (by other Muslims, apparently) but fuck all was done about him. I don’t know why that is or was, and I don’t suppose we will ever know, but it is very concerning.

  5. “56% of people felt local culture was threatened by ethnic minorities.”

    Obviously, these people are all racist, knuckle-dragging morons…. After all, 56% roughly aligns with the 52% who voted for Brexit and the 50% that David Goodhart identifies as ‘Somewheres’ (as opposed to his 25% who are ‘Anywheres’).

  6. Interested
    Yes, I’ve known some decent Muslims, too. I’ve also know some who are less pleasant – like the creep who wanted everyone in a meeting to go without coffee out of “respect” for Ramadan. ( It fell to me to tell him, No. My fellow infidels would have agreed!) More generally, Islam is more than a private religious belief: it is a political ideology and social system aiming at world domination. Moreover, the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya states that it is not a sin to lie to an infidel when it is in the interests of Islam, so we can’t believe a word they say about terrorism. It’s time to encourage mass relocation.

  7. Interested: I think their religious beliefs are utterly fucking nuts but that’s their affair.

    But even your nice, decent muslims don’t return the favour: theirs is the only true religion and freedom of conscience is an error if not an aberration. A lot of trouble flows from that.

  8. Yeah. It’s all the talk at work is about the Italians coming over here, fucking the place up with oversized pepper mills and tarantellas.

  9. Interested: And Nazi Germany was full of nice decent people who were a bit pissed off over WW1 and the Depression but had no desire to set Europe ablaze or commit mass murder. But the thing with ordinary people, what makes them ordinary, is that push comes to shove they will do what their leaders tell them to. And since those you speak of are practising RoP members what matters is what their leaders will tell them to do.

    The lone nutters are not lone. They are doing what their creed tells them to and that creed is fully supported by the hierarchy regardless of what tripe is disseminated in public. Once numbers are sufficient and the ground is prepared they will go for takeover because that is what their creed says.

    How many atrocities did ordinary decent Germans take part in under orders? Worldwide (and-in UK) polls show there is far more support for already clearly known horrors (apostate/ “honour” killing, acid splashing, jew hating) among the RoP than ever would have been found amongst Germans for Nazi antics. Which plans were unknown to Germans at the start anyway.

  10. Interested

    No, NO and NO

    I too, in Spain, shop at a grocer’s run by a Pakistani family and very friendly too BUT:

    Read about Dawa. Start with:
    The Challenge of Dawa
    Political Islam as Ideology and Movement and How to Counter it
    By
    Ayaan Hirsi Ali
    Fellow at Harvard, Apostate and all round expert on the subject.

    The real problem is NOT the terrorist attacks. They are unspeakable but the objective is not just to kill a few (or a lot of us). It is far worse than that.

    Look at the surveys of attitudes and what people believe when push comes to shove.

    It is NOT merely about dealing with the violent ones.

    Until we take this on board…

    Douglas Murray has an article today in the Spectator (paywalled) about how Islam is clearly telling us what they want and how we are refusing to listen. The day people listen things will change.

  11. “But the thing with ordinary people, what makes them ordinary, is that push comes to shove they will do what their leaders tell them to.”

    Bloody hell, Ecksy, that’s something I’ll be using again.

  12. Interested: “… there really are plenty of nice, decent Muslims in this country.”

    I don’t doubt that at all. But when are they going to do something about their co-religionists?

  13. Interested,

    “Crazy thing is, and I know it won’t be popular with some elements here, there really are plenty of nice, decent Muslims in this country.”

    Sure. Absolutely. But we just had the son of a “nice, decent Muslim”, someone who took him to a liberal mosque that condemns ISIL, murdering children. There’s really no better example of a “good muslim”. He did everything not to produce a terrorist. But we got a terrorist.

    And people can say “well, bad people are born every day”, but they generally nick cars or get into fights on a Saturday night. If you’re in “firm”, kicking off fights with home fans, no-one is supporting indiscriminate murder of civilians. No-one is saying “murder Arsenal kids”. Even if you felt that angry, the group would shun you for it. Your “clan” would cast you out. Suicide bombers are treated as martyrs in many parts of the world. They gain heroic status in death.

    You either have to accept that suicide bombing is a fact of life, or stop Muslims coming here.

  14. Mark Steyn has recounted how he has spoken to apparently ‘moderate’ Muslims -professionals, educated, etc. The conversation is normal and then suddenly out comes some absolute fucking craziness about killing Jews.

    The problem is we don’t really know what a ‘moderate’ Muslim is.

  15. “The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind
    I see the face and the eyes and mouth
    But not the soul behind.”

    Rudyard Kipling

  16. Indeed. To only slightly misquote another mass murderer, the terrorist moves amongst the faithful as a fish swims in the sea.

    The threat of being shot, mutilated by a nail bomb or crushed by a lorry driven by some sad-act goat-fucker is so small as to worry hardly anyone. It’s the stuff that the majority of Muslims stands for – the end of free speech, the oppression of women, the murder of homosexuals, the end of democracy etc – which is the real threat. They’ve already ended free speech in Britain. Didn’t take much, did it. Not when you’ve got politicians colluding. The state is already so corrupted that it turns a blind eye to the mass rape of children.

    This is why Britain needs to de-Islamify. It urgently needs its own Geert Wilders (who, let’s not forget, was initially banned from Britain even whilst the doors were wide-open to the followers of this fascist ideology.)

    There is no such thing as a good Muslim, just as there was no such thing as a good Nazi. If they were good they wouldn’t subscribe to evil.

  17. Anon: “But we just had the son of a “nice, decent Muslim”, someone who took him to a liberal mosque that condemns ISIL, murdering children. There’s really no better example of a “good muslim”. He did everything not to produce a terrorist.

    Except we now know he was nothing of the sort.

  18. The problem is defining a “moderate Muslim”. For Muslims, a “moderate Muslim” is one who believes Islam should dominate all the peoples of the earth & those not Muslim should be converted or, at best – be subjugated.
    “Moderate Muslims” in the western, liberal sense are extremists.

  19. I’ll join with the others here in saying I don’t believe the moderates are anything of the kind. I have told this anecdote before, but I once met an extremely liberal, educated, westernised Turkish woman who casually announced that she thought Israel shouldn’t exist. To her, this was a perfectly uncontroversial subject to bring up with her peers. I have found that if you want to know just how moderate a Muslim is, ask them about Israel or Salman Rushdie.

    Later, I met another Turkish woman, even more liberal and westernised than the first. When Trump’s travel ban came in, she complained that it was “obviously a Muslim ban” and she opposed it, believing that eventually it will target her. Even when I pointed out that the ban covered countries which were either in a state of complete chaos or (Iran) openly hostile to the United States, she still insisted it was a Muslim ban. In other words, this westernised, liberal Turk thought she had more common cause with a Somalian or Libyan than the Americans who elected Trump in the hope he would try to keep jihadists out of the United States. Pushed hard enough, and they are all Muslims first and foremost, and I’ve yet to find a single exception to this.

    I also agree that it is less of a religion than a political movement, and it should be treated as one – no different from Communists.

  20. I do wonder how ‘normal’ you are to build your life around Mohamed’s fairy tales. The people I particularly cannot fathom are converts to Islam. How nutty do you have to be to look at the life of Mohamed with the pedophilia, the thieving, the killing and the self-evident cult creation, and think “yes, this is the religion for me”?

  21. Rob:

    Mark Steyn has recounted how he has spoken to apparently ‘moderate’ Muslims -professionals, educated, etc. The conversation is normal and then suddenly out comes some absolute fucking craziness about killing Jews.

    I found the same thing regularly when I had the misfortune to visit Lahore. Some nice, softly spoken, educated lad would suddenly turn around and say something like: “Do you know why Pakistan is poor? Because the Jews control the money and they keep Muslims down”.

  22. “This latest guy in Manchester was identified (by other Muslims, apparently) but fuck all was done about him. I don’t know why that is or was, and I don’t suppose we will ever know, but it is very concerning.”

    Is it because there are thousands like him, and they can’t keep a close watch on them all?

  23. A Muslim ban has to happen. It’s only the screeching Guardianistas stopping it happening. They’re what needs to be overcome.

    And such people are more than happy to slap bans on UK entry for having the wrong opinion. For example, Geert Wilders and Pamela Geller, who are hardly extreme. The Guardianistas would have also banned Trump if they’d had their way.

    We also need to enforce the law more when it comes to left-wing protesters. They’ve gotten the idea over the years that they can have a public tantrum and get their own way all the time.

  24. There can be no victory over bearded murder without victory over the left. Simple as that.

  25. I may be unique among commenters here in that my significant other is a Muslim. An observant one – sort of: she prays, concerns herself in a general sense with being a good Muslim, won’t touch pork and prefers overall to eat halal, but occasionally drinks alcohol. She’d like to observe the fasting month but never manages to. She’d like me to stop eating pork, which I’ve told her I’ll do if she gives up rice (won’t happen) and would want me to convert if we married, even though she knows my conversion would be a sham.

    She’s sometimes angry when she hears about these atrocities, inasmuch as she feels they have nothing to do with her but that they besmirch her faith. I’ve known her angry about random Muslim men who seek to tell her how to dress. On the other hand she sometimes toys with the idea of permanently wearing a headscarf, because she feels social pressure to do so.

    She has a vague, slightly Guardian-esque leaning towards the view that if only the West would not ‘interfere’ then all would be well, at the same time as regarding these now common or garden atrocities as atrocities. There is no doubt in her mind that they are evil. The closest she gets towards anti-Jewish anti-Semitism is to speak of Jews as such, thus: “he’s a Jew”. Despite the harshness to my ears of that simple designation, I detect no hostility to Jews and indeed have heard her remark that it’s all stupid because Jews and Muslims originate in the same part of the world.

    She’s of the view that we are entitled to reject entry to this country to anyone we wish, and thinks we’ve got nobody but ourselves to blame for allowing mass immigration. She is particularly exercised about third-worlders getting free housing etc.

    But above all, she’s not particularly political or religious, really. Her religious observation is pragmatic and a la carte. Her political views are lightly held, except where they touch on corruption in her country of origin. She is fierce in nothing. Her greatest pleasure is shopping.

    Is she assimilated? Well, if you saw her on the street then, notwithstanding the racial difference, you would say “yes”, based just upon her clothing. If you socialised with her casually, you may not even be aware that she is Muslim. Privately, she retains aspects of her origins in the same way that an American over here might celebrate Thanksgiving and Independence Day, or a French Catholic might go to Mass.

    I’m greatly sympathetic to much of the anti-jihadi, sometimes outright anti-Islamic sentiment I see expressed here and elsewhere. Privately, I agree with Houellebecq that it’s a uniquely stupid and savage religion overall. But I have to say, and you can disregard this as my lacking objectivity, that I do not think she – and I dare say there are others like her – is any kind of threat either in vague cultural terms, or more specifically by giving succour to those who want to murder indiscriminately.

    The biggest risk, I think, with someone like her, derives from the social pressures I described above. It doesn’t even go so far as creeping radicalisation, it’s just the feeling she sometimes has that she is meant to knuckle down and wear that headscarf. I do think that has an impact, slowly, in altering not only our surroundings – more covered women – but in making it clear to ever more that there is the social norm.

  26. “The biggest risk, I think, with someone like her, derives from the social pressures I described above. It doesn’t even go so far as creeping radicalisation, it’s just the feeling she sometimes has that she is meant to knuckle down and wear that headscarf. I do think that has an impact, slowly, in altering not only our surroundings – more covered women – but in making it clear to ever more that there is the social norm.”

    Yes. Moderate Muslims are a long-term threat to our culture, even if they’re nice now. In twenty-thirty years time, when the Muslim population is much bigger (assuming it is allowed to), moderate Muslims won’t find much difficulty in switching over to Islamic moral and dress codes when powerful Muslim leaders start demanding it. They won’t have much trouble voting for Muslim leaders in elections. They may be fairly happy with Western ways, but they’ll also be fairly happy with Muslim ways in the future, especially if those Muslim ways creep up on us gradually. And gradually the UK becomes more and more Islamified.

  27. In all honesty Mr Lud I ‘m not sure that your post is relevant. It is nice that you have hooked up well. Are you saying that your wife is typical of RoP followers male and female? Because that is just back to the post for Interested above.

    Most people are not slavering murderers in and of themselves. But when war is declared most will do what they are told. Your lady has the complication of being with a non RoP. But what if she were with another Islamic. One who accepted the call to Jihad. What would she say? “No” to that and leave him ?Reject her own crew entirely? When she struggles in the face of social pressure to put a bag over her head?

    “They are just ordinary people” wont cut it. They are opposed to free speech and more as Wat Dabney above says. Anywhere between 40 to 60% worldwide support openly even worse crimes and horrors.

    At some point if things go on as they are both of you will find yourselves with increasingly hard choices.

  28. @ Edward Lud

    Thank you for an interesting contribution.

    For folk to be able to rub along easily with one another, one prerquisite is that each recognises that everyone is entitled to their own path (or none) to God and that His truth (or silence) can be revealed in different ways to different people.

    My contention – or perhaps fear – is that even the most urbane and relaxed muslim (in terms of diet and stimulants) considers adherents of other faiths (and especially those of none) as lesser beings because this is what their faith tells them.

    It’s impossible for a society to integrate people who despise the host population.

  29. “It’s impossible for a society to integrate people who despise the host population.”

    But even that is overstating it. The migrants don’t even have to despise the host population. Most of the migrants can be very fond of their hosts, but they can still gradually drag the host population towards their culture, especially once they have enough numbers.

  30. @Ed Lud

    I like anecdotes, so thanks for posting that. I know they aren’t scientific but they do add something. I think anecdote is the right word to use, someone telling us something from a small sample but real experience.

    Mrs Cynic is from somewhere Islamic too. But she’s a wine-drinking, bacon-eating, pro-Israel, Hillary-jailing, hair-blowing-free, Brexiteering, it’s-a-crime-to-cover-this-up type. Muslim only ‘cos the old gaff’s government says so. Been infected a bit with PC from working in UK corporate culture, sometimes she catches herself coming out with shit that’s a bit wussy. Of course, she’s married a right-wing God–fearing nutjob that’s damned proud of it, and I didn’t hide it when we met either. So it is possible to tell the twats back home to go shove it where the sun never shines.

    I wish she’d dump the occasional PC crap altogether. It must get in through gentle brainwashing or something. Causes some tension.

    As I’m pro-Israel, net-tax-paying and have a brown wife, I’m sure I’m a greedy, racist, anti-Semite according to SJW logic.

  31. On the subject of lying if this advances Islam.
    Can cut both ways.
    Not allowed to give evidence in court.
    Not allowed to complain to police about..
    Unrestricted annual HMRC investigation as standard

  32. ‘Our culture generally thinks that tweens get to go to singalongs without being shredded on the way out.’

    Versus…

    A culture that generally thinks that tweens who go to singalongs of Western music should be flogged.

  33. Mr Ecks, I agree that we’re going to face hard choices. War, as you say, has been declared. At some stage we infidels will probably decide that we, too, want to fight it. So, yes, I have said to her, there is likely to come a point when sides have to be picked. If she’s given a choice, I think she’d keep her head down over here rather than opt to fight for Iran/Saudi/Pak or wherever.

    I don’t think she’d be with a genuinely Muslim man, by the way. She knows the type for what it is. As with a lot of such women, it’s one of the reasons Englishmen or similar are attractive.

  34. I’m not sure integration is necessary. Take two groups – Chinese and Jews – in either London or Paris. Neither is particularly well integrated: a lot live in specific areas, don’t marry outside the group or even socialise, retain the language and customs or their parents, are not particularly welcoming to outsiders, etc.

    The crucial difference is they don’t cause problems, mainly because they are self-policing. The Chinese don’t want undue attention brought down on them, so are happy to operate below the radar. This means they’ll stamp down on any troublemakers within their ranks. The Jews believe unwanted attention and scandal are bad for business, and so make sure any wayward sons are dealt with rapidly and behind closed doors.

    None of these is true for Muslims. IMO this is because a lot of them are dependent on the state for their income (so “bad for business” doesn’t apply to them) and their family relations will *always* come before anything else: even if sonny is a jihadist, his mother and father will still house him, close him, and feed him because “he is kin”. Whereas most other groups will ostracise, and the mere threat of this can be a powerful incentive to behave.

  35. Tim Newman: “Take two groups – Chinese and Jews – in either London or Paris. Neither is particularly well integrated: a lot live in specific areas, don’t marry outside the group or even socialise, retain the language and customs or their parents, are not particularly welcoming to outsiders, etc.

    The crucial difference is they don’t cause problems, mainly because they are self-policing.”

    This. A thousand times this.

  36. “The crucial difference is they don’t cause problems, mainly because they are self-policing.”

    I don’t think the self-policing has anything to do with it. The crucial difference is that both are happy to let the other lot live their lives.

  37. This is the problem

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/06/another-dead-blasphemer-in-scotland?via=twitter_page

    Nearly a week before Asad’s murder the imam of Scotland’s largest mosque, also in Glasgow, Maulana Habib Ur Rehman, used the messaging platform WhatsApp to show his support for the now-executed Mumtaz Qadri. In messages seen by the BBC, the Imam said that he was “disturbed” and “upset” at Qadri’s execution. He then added the epithet “rahmatullahi alaih” after mentioning Qadri’s name. This is a religious blessing usually given to devout Muslims and meaning “may God’s mercy be upon him.”

    Basically it’s types like this amongst the Muslim community who should be expelled – and certainly should be banned from preaching as a fomenter of violence. No Muslim who will not accept the Ahmadis should be allowed into the country.

  38. “But the thing with ordinary people, what makes them ordinary, is that push comes to shove they will do what their leaders tell them to”

    This, from Ecks (yes, read my lips) is some of the clearest sense that hath ever been here spake.

  39. @bilbaoboy, May 25, 2017 at 9:36 am

    The Spectator: Douglas Murray, 27 May 2017 9:00 AM

    Islamists are very clear about what they want — we just aren’t listening

    Islamists are very clear about what they want — we just aren’t listening

    Cries of ‘what can it mean?’ always follow a terror attack. It seems we’re incapable of learning anything

    Full article: https://pastebin.com/VpkFzjNg

  40. I was considering the Chinese in this regard last night. The old woman in the local take away barely speaks a word of English, is grumpy as hell and has no desire to integrate into British life.

    But she also has no desire to change it, to make her position political, to express how hard done by she is, to make herself a victim, to take anything from the British which is not earned. She simply exists within Britain, the third way, between integration and multiculturalism.

  41. magnusw,

    No, she’s there to make money for her family. If she was on state handouts, she’d have more time for political agitation. There’s a lesson in there.

  42. BobRocket

    Not dsiputing, but how do you arrive at 6%, just curious?

    Isn’t birth rates the crucial thing. And unless we can change what is currently taking place, Europe is done and dusted?

  43. Two anecdotes. I live near High Wycombe which has a large Moslem (E/W Pakistani) population.

    @DocBud
    I do wonder how ‘normal’ you are to build your life around Mohamed’s fairy tales. The people I particularly cannot fathom are converts to Islam. How nutty do you have to be to look at the life of Mohamed with the pedophilia, the thieving, the killing and the self-evident cult creation, and think “yes, this is the religion for me”?

    I know a guy (white, 50s) who converted in order to marry a nice Asian girl (and piss off his family)
    He is (AFAICT) serious about it and has done the Hajj etc. Greater love hath no man than to lay down his foreskin …

    And I employed a nice local lad in IT support. He was in his 20s, western in dress and speech, moderately observant in avoiding pork and alcohol. Fitted in well with the team. Then, one week he went on holiday to ‘see his family’ and came back married to a local Pakistani girl. The team were gob-smacked.

  44. Chris,

    I used to live near High a Wycombe and thought the Pakistani community was fairly well integrated and westernised compared to my native Dewsbury where it feels like an extension of the Punjab.

    I know there were some problems with youths but a lot of that seemed to be just the usual gang warfare and no worse than the mods and rockers stuff.

  45. PF,

    in any random grouping of 100 people, if 6 or more hold the same strong/moderate opinion on any one particular subject then their viewpoint will dominate the whole group.

    Most people have weak/no opinions on any random subject and will just go with the flow as long as they themselves are not strongly impacted, even people with moderate opinions will tolerate moderate impacts without much more than a bit of grumbling if they appear to be strongly out numbered.

    To oppose a strong/moderate opinion and give no ground amongst the group as a whole you need at least a three to one ratio of strong opposition opinion, any less and the group as a whole will favour some kind of compromise.

    The likely hood of a solid 18% of any group having a strong oppositional viewpoint on any one issue is very low so the 6% gain all or some of their demands the majority of the time.

    https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

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