We’ve had people muttering about this around here

Several people have been injured, including a police officer, in a shooting at a Munich metro station.

Munich police said in a tweet that the police officer’s injuries were serious. The suspect was also injured and is in custody.

The shooting occurred during a morning police check at the Unterfoehring metro station, the Munich police spokesman Michael Riehlein said.

He had no further details, but Munich’s Merkur newspaper reported that witnesses said the suspect took a police officer’s pistol and shot her, and also injured others at the scene.

How tough is it to nick the gun off some slip of a girl?

Most sexist, of course, patriarchal even, but, well, how?

64 comments on “We’ve had people muttering about this around here

  1. It’s not tough to nick a handgun off anyone. A large automatic weapon correctly secured to its operator, like the ones we have for the armed police over here, is bloody difficult to pinch. But a handgun – just get behind the person in question and pull it from its holster, or wait until they draw it, duck your head to one side, lean forward, pull the outstretched arm towards and then past yourself, grab the barrel of the handgun and turn so they have to let go or break their fingers (and yes, everyone lets go).

    We already do this properly. Having guns everywhere just leads to lots of people getting shot.

  2. “Having guns everywhere just leads to lots of people getting shot.”

    Yes it does–the people who should be shot.

    If you don’t want to defend yourself–your choice. Leave the rest of us out of your neuroses.

  3. Authorities did not believe the incident was terrorism-related, and that the suspect appeared to have acted out of “personal” reasons and not with political or religious motivations, Da Gloria Martins said.

    Seems legit.

  4. I recall something was special about the policeman’s holster when that boy tried to take one to shoot Donald with. You had to pull it out in a certain way or it stayed put.

  5. “Yes it does–the people who should be shot.”

    So the police woman should have been shot in the head, correct?

    Yes, police holsters are different to “normal” holsters. So everyone will simply learn how to remove a handgun from a police holster.

  6. TIS:“Authorities did not believe the incident was terrorism-related…”

    I’m seeing this phrases more and more in the UK press, and on things you wouldn’t immediately imagine WERE possibly terrorist related too…

  7. “How tough is it to nick the gun off some slip of a girl?”

    Or, given the relaxed fitness standards, off some slight, bespectacled youth, or fat, wheezing lardbucket?

  8. Authorities did not believe the incident was terrorism-related, and that the suspect appeared to have acted out of “personal” reasons and not with political or religious motivations, Da Gloria Martins said.

    PHEW! The injured can get up off the floor now. What, you mean they are still injured? But it wasn’t “terrorism”!

    ‘Terrorism’ has now been defined as any terrorist act the government can’t deny being so without being made to look completely ludicrous.

  9. Julia M:
    TIS:“Authorities did not believe the incident was terrorism-related…”
    We are asked to believe an awful lot by the authorities especially re the RoP against the evidence of our “lyin’ eyes”.

  10. I’m seeing this phrases more and more in the UK press, and on things you wouldn’t immediately imagine WERE possibly terrorist related too…

    Give the suspect’s name and I could tell you pretty accurately whether or not it’s “terrorism related”

  11. investigators were treating the shooting as an “isolated incident” as he tried to reassure locals.

    Yes, he reassured the locals that he would arrest them for murder if they defend themselves and their homes from criminals. The locals were ‘reassured’.

  12. “Having guns everywhere just leads to lots of people getting shot.”

    Exactly. We must take guns away from the police.

  13. I have an old triple-retention police-style holster. We had a few tries trying to grab the gun out of it. It’s set up so that a) there’s a thumb-break strap that is hard for anyone other than the user to defeat, and b) a twist-lock where you have to twist the pistol clockwise and hold it twisted while withdrawing the gun upwards. Extrememly difficult to do if you’re not the one wearing it.

  14. Tim said: “Most sexist, of course, patriarchal even, but, well, how?”

    It goes beyond the sex of the constable. Is a 5ft policeman likely to be as effective as a 6ft one when the shit hits the fan?

  15. Serves Sweden right for not being an active participant in the War on Terror.
    Sorry, I meant serves Sweden right for being an active participant in the War on Terror.

    Whatever.

  16. “My prayers are with the families of whichever people Muslims just murdered in whatever city Muslims happen to be murdering people today.” – Jack Burton

  17. But a handgun – just get behind the person in question and pull it from its holster, or wait until they draw it, duck your head to one side, lean forward, pull the outstretched arm towards and then past yourself, grab the barrel of the handgun and turn so they have to let go or break their fingers (and yes, everyone lets go).

    A Royal Marine pal of mine was based in Kuwait in 2004 when I was out there. He didn’t have much to do, and he figured out the US Army’s new standard issue pistol (Beretta, I think) could be rendered useless by grabbing it, pressing a button on the side and pulling, thus removing the top-slide. He used to practice this again and again with me pointing one at him (unloaded, of course) until he got very good at it, then he demonstrated it on a US Army Captain who was rather annoyed!

  18. I suspect the ease with which one can take a gun off its possessor is most closely linked to the amount of.practise one has had. See TN above.

  19. Rob Moss(berg*)–“So the police woman should have been shot in the head, correct?”

    Nobody innocent “deserves” to be shot but she failed the test. Life is what it is. If you fall off a cliff you can squark all you like about how much life you had left, your family, the injustice whatever–but you still splat.

    For trendy PC reasons she was given a task she wasn’t well-equipped for or she just had bad luck. Either way and she died. Sorry but there it is.

    An armed passer-by intervention might have killed the attacker and saved her.

    Several American cops escape death just that way most years I understand.

    * Mossberg is a brand of shotgun. No bullshit about anti-Semitism please.

  20. In the US ~25% of all police officers who get shot are shot with their own gun. This is one of the reasons you’ll hear every so often about “smart guns” that can only be fired by their registered handlers. In reality that’s far more likely to be can’t be fired by their handler when needed, or will only shoot the handler until the relevant app is updated and/or rebooted.

  21. I’ve always wondered about the wisdom of the belt hung hip holster for pistols. It does leave the weapon liable to be grabbed by someone behind the carrier. The only time I’ve carried a pistol it was in a shoulder holster. Seemed a much more sensible arrangement.

  22. I mentioned a while ago being on the tube in London with a mate of mine and seeing a pretty but very slight female AFO and her overweight male companion and speculating as to how easy it would be to disarm them. We thought very easy.

    Seriously, this is going to happen in London or somewhere, and one of the reasons it’s going to happen is because of the left and their insistence on treating any shooting by any police officer as though it were a crime (see National Rioting Championships post Mark Duggan).

    I don’t want to give anybody any ideas, but if half a dozen people approach an armed officer in a non-threatening manner, so as to get up close, there may not be much that the officer will be able to do to prevent the weapon being taken.

    They do patrol in pairs but I don’t think that will necessarily help. The average armed police officer will be paralysed by indecision, and second-guessing the outcome of the enquiry he knows he will face if he discharges his weapon, and simultaneously worried about appearing racist if he tells people of a certain appearance to back off.

    When the history of our collapse is written, if it’s written, lawyers and people like Ironman, who worry their tiny little brains about ‘racism’ to the exclusion of almost everything else, will have a starring role.

  23. According to the German police statement (in German, natürlich) the bad guy grabbed the gun off a male police officer, and shot his female colleague with it.

    Perhaps you shouldn’t believe everything you read in the Guardian.

  24. Kraut Police are now saying it was a “German man”. No further details, but they want you to know it had nothing to do with terrorism or religion, no siree!

    A cynical person might think the authorities believe they can now cover up Ramadan related interfaith dialogue, so long as the body count doesn’t exceed 10.

    What odds do we reckon Paddy Power will offer on the “German man” being called “Mohammed”, assuming his identity is ever reported?

    Sure, it might turn out to be an irate lederhosen enthusiast, but c’mon…

  25. A Royal Marine pal of mine was based in Kuwait in 2004 when I was out there. He didn’t have much to do, and he figured out the US Army’s new standard issue pistol (Beretta, I think) could be rendered useless by grabbing it, pressing a button on the side and pulling, thus removing the top-slide. He used to practice this again and again with me pointing one at him (unloaded, of course) until he got very good at it, then he demonstrated it on a US Army Captain who was rather annoyed!

    With all due respect, Mr. Newman, you’ve been had.

    The pistol you speak of is the Beretta 92 (M9), which was adopted by the U.S. military in 1985. Field stripping the 92 involves pressing a small button on the left hand side of the pistol and then rotating the take-down lever 90 degrees. The button is small, adjacent to and flush with the lever. It is a two handed operation (by design)… And the slide will not come off unless the take-down lever is rotated the full 90 degrees. Believe me, I’ve owned a 92 and field stripped that pistol more times than I want to remember.

    Can’t be done the way you’ve described it.

    Good story though.

  26. Whether or not TimN had bee caught, had or referred to a different gun if I’d been in a position where I had to draw mine I wouldn’t let anyone close enough to lay a hand on it, or me.

  27. I’ve never used a pistol (except an air pistol, obviously). My father did: he told me that in action it was pretty hard to hit someone unless they were close or stationary or remarkably incompetent.

  28. Interested,

    There should be an inquiry after each police discharge of a firearm whether or not it leads to a killing.

    If the armed police have been properly selected, given through physical and psychological training and work to very clear rules of engagement they should welcome the inquiry. If they haven’t then we have a right to know what went wrong.

    And on a similar theme, I hope we’ll find out why it took [53] rounds to stop the London Bridge terrorists because that is a lot of rounds for an organisation that isn’t supposed to open fire until they have a clear target and the only aim for the centre of mass. Any that missed are a danger to the public.

  29. BiND,

    They fired 53 rounds because guns aren’t as effective as people think. Hollywood makes them seem omnipotent stopping machines.

    For real life, watch some actual youtube vids of people getting shot and how long they still stand/walk/fight.

    Assuming you have the stomach for it…

    Terrorist with machete getting up 4 times after being repeatedly shot by pistol
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWQtV5RfQqc

    Man shot in leg running around like nothing happened, kicking car
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHFz04f9Ikg

    Homeless hero shot centre mass, still able to walk and move
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDmi8sMeC5I

    Plenty of other videos on that channel with people getting stabbed/shot and able to pose a danger.

    Cars are far more effective.

    I would still prefer to be able to match firepower and carry a conceal weapon though. At least it gives us a fighting chance instead of just having to curl up in the corner and whimper while we get butchered in the name of diversity.

  30. Poor old Cressida Penis, she often gets it wrong. Charles De Menezes – innocent and gunned down, Adebolajo and Adebowale left alive. This time they killed 3 perps, but wounded a bystander. Cressida, why don’t you give up, dear …

  31. BiND

    Re 53 rounds?

    Weren’t they perceived to be wearing suicide vests?

    In those circumstances, wouldn’t the objective (from a risk perspective, both to police and to public) be that they were rendered very dead and very quickly?

    8 minutes wasn’t too shabby? Was that a lesson learned from the evidence of what happened elsewhere (Paris?), when there was more considerable delay / hesitation?

  32. The 53 rounds this time didn’t come from hand guns – low energy so not much in the way of damage I would assume, but from some form of (semi) automatic long (ish) barrels rifle thing. No idea what but 53 rounds in a very short space of time implies automatic weapons and shooting until the officers were sure the terrorists WERE DEAD. I assume this means lots of rounds even after actual death has occurred.

    Shoot to kill in operation. A jolly good thing in this circumstance and must have been a standing order for them to fire so many rounds without fear of inquiry and trial.

    On the other hand I do wonder where all the bullets ended up. The inquests should be interesting, if only for the hit count. We know one went where it shouldn’t but how many others were there?

    Again mind you having seen the video I think the police were in “jump out and shoot as it might be Manchester again” mode and likely, and reasonably, terrified for their own lives given how close they got.

  33. Massad Ayoob says that if someone gets within 21′ of you and you haven’t got your pistol up and aimed at them they’ll likely be able to rush you before you can react. If the weapon’s holstered you’ve no chance. Other authorities say 24′ or even 30′.

    As for the number of rounds fired: after any fatal police shooting you’ll get some mong asking why they didn’t “shoot to wound” or whathaveyou. The police do not operate a “shoot to kill” policy. They operate a “shoot to incapacitate” policy. The only problem is that with pistol rounds the only way you incapacitate someone is either by poking enough holes in them that they suffer a massive drop in blood pressure, or by disrupting their central nervous system. Either outcome usually results in death (although by no means always). If you want to put someone flat on their back fast, shoot them in the face with 00 buck from 2 metres away. That’ll do it. One of those 30mm rounds from the chain gun on an Apache applied centre mass will do as well.

  34. There’s only one way to settle this, chaps.

    The revolvers he is holding are – in all probability – Ubertis, which is owned by Beretta.

    So it does make sense, after a fashion.

  35. Massad Ayoob says that if someone gets within 21′ of you and you haven’t got your pistol up and aimed at them they’ll likely be able to rush you before you can react. If the weapon’s holstered you’ve no chance. Other authorities say 24′ or even 30′.

    Situational awareness trumps all.

  36. I’m quite happy with the police having a shoot on site policy in these circumstances (BiCR beat to the shoot to kill comment).

    I also get that people dont die instantly, especially where low velocity rounds are used for good reasons.

    Cherney, I haven’t watched the videos, I saw enough training blood and gore and a small amount when I went to the Falklands, and am well aware that people can do amazing things before shock sets in.

    All I was asking is that the police account for all those rounds, whether it was from double tapped hand guns or 3-5 round bursts from automatic weapons. If most ended up in the terrorists all well and good. If they didn’t we need to know why not – did some police panic and if they did are they psychologically capable? Is more training needed.

    The last thing we need is the police panicking and doing the terrorist’s job for them.
    And I should say that there is no disgrace in a policeman finding out that they aren’t cut out for firearms roles when the shit hits the fan, no amount of training prepares them fully for that first contact.

  37. BiND,

    I agree, the police should definitely account for their rounds, as should anyone who shoots in public. A person using a firearm is morally and legally responsible for the bullet that comes out of the end of the gun.

    53 doesn’t sound that high to me, with 3 active targets who will no doubt have been moving.

    Well worth watching some of the vids on that channel though. It is about self-protection and situational awareness. Also excellent for demonstrating to people who say “guns = bad” as a lot of people on their use firearms for defence successfully.

  38. TiS

    “Happy Ramadan ”

    Sad thing is, when Showaddywaddy sang about Ramadan-a-ding-dong It DID seem happy. Whatever happened to those innocent days?

  39. Remember everyone, never ever think about defending yourself

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/12/gunowners-could-help-fight-terror-attack-says-police-commissioner

    “A police commissioner has caused alarm among rank and file officers by suggesting that members of the public who own guns could help defend rural areas against terror attacks. …The comments have caused alarm within the force and prompted a stern warning from a senior officer that citizens should not arm themselves.”

    I’ve never mentioned this anywhere before because I didn’t want to give anyone any ideas, but seeing as a cop has already said it…A rural attack is actually one of my biggest worries, due to the length of time it might take armed police to arrive to a hamlet in the depths of Scotland, a whole village could be wiped out unless there are some well armed country folk ready to protect them.

  40. magnusw

    Far more people in rural areas already own guns, perfectly legally, and regularly use them – shotguns for example.

  41. PF

    They don’t carry them around with them. I’ve not seen any gun om display in these parts in 6 years other than on a shoot.

  42. ‘If the armed police have been properly selected, given through physical and psychological training and work to very clear rules of engagement they should welcome the inquiry. If they haven’t then we have a right to know what went wrong.’

    That should work to keep their guns holstered.

  43. ‘How tough is it to nick the gun off some slip of a girl?’

    You underestimate police training.

  44. BiND

    Absolutely, fair point – generally secured in cabinets, etc.

    But I guess it would mostly be a less attractive target for an attacker? In that, there are likely to be fewer people to target, and then perhaps also a higher risk that someone may be able to access some means with which to defend or retaliate?

    Factor in issues such as neighbours also generally knowing each other. I would suggest that, the more rural (in my experience), the more “robust” any defence is likely to be in any case; both mentally and physically, particularly nearer to farming communities?

  45. People say that “guns kill people” which is ridiculous.

    It’s the bullets.

    Unless you’re using the gun as a ‘blunt force’ weapon in which case it might as well be a hammer. In fact a hammer would be better than a gun if the hammer had a rubber handle.

    So a gun without bullets is less dangerous than a hammer.

    So I think that this proves that the ‘anti-gun lobby’ are just all wrong. They should be anti-bullet. Or anti-hammer.

  46. Re. the Beretta. Jet Li pulled the trick on Mel Gibson in one of the Lethal Weapons films. Only Mel Gibson had helpfully left the take-down lever down to make it easy for him.

    So either Tim N’s friend was more adept than Li, or the American Captain was as obliging as Gibson, or the story’s a crock.

  47. Fifty three shots from eight weapons isn’t many – and why do people care? Shoot the fuckers enough that they can’t set off the bomb you think they’re wearing or go home and put your feet up.
    Police weapons don’t fire automatic, though, so no ‘3-5 shot bursts’.
    The cops will have to identify where each round landed (obviously).
    I’m not saying there should be no enquiry, just that the presumption of guilt appears to be in action.
    The 20ft rush thing depends on who and who.
    Gamecock- dunno if you’re being serious but no ‘police training’ will stop a determined 16st make from disarming a 9st female, assumingvge can get close enough by appearing friendly, or eg to want to know the way to the railway station.

  48. Yes, I’m being serious. Police don’t just hand little women guns and say, “Good luck!”

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