So much for free movement, eh?

Austria deployed tanks against possible migrant incursions on its border with Italy Tuesday prompting Rome to summon the Austrian ambassador to clarify matters.

Meanwhile European Commissioner Jean-Claude Juncker said Italy would have European solidarity “in deeds and not just words” – and the EC said in a new migrant action plan for Italy, which allotted 35 million euros and called for a new coordination centre in Libya, that Rome should draft a code of conduct for NGO ships rescuing asylum seekers off Libya. The Italian foreign ministry summoned the Austrian ambassador after Vienna said it was ready to deploy up to 750 troops at its border at the Brenner Pass “very soon” unless the flow of migrants from Italy diminishes. “I think that border controls will be activated very soon and an army deployment will be necessary,” Austrian Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil was quoted as saying by the Kronen Zeitung newspaper Tuesday. He added that the measure will be “indispensable if the flow of migrants from Italy does not diminish”. Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz then defended the plan. “Our preparations for controls at the border with Italy are not only just, but also necessary,” Kurz said. “We are preparing to defend our border at the Brenner if that is necessary”.

As to what the EU is doing:

Brussels vows to help Italy control ‘unsustainable’ migrant surge

OK, so what are they going to do?

Prepare migrant NGO code of conduct, EU tells Italy

Right, yes, that’ll work, won’t it?

82 comments on “So much for free movement, eh?

  1. Presumably the tanks are for show, to appease domestic concerns. This is therefore an internal Austrian matter.

  2. Free movement of European citizens, timmy. But you know that.

    Of course I agree this is a European problem requiring European solutions: the Austrian tanks should be deployed on the Italian coastline. Guns facing the med.

  3. Prosecute the NGO’s for assisting in illegal migration on an industrial scale, demanding the NGO’s pay all costs related to the migrants including housing, food, staffing costs incurred by the Italians etc.

    This nonsense has got to stop!

  4. @BiG: the Schengen agreement doesn’t have the word `citizen` anywhere in it that I can find.

  5. Biggie – Once aain, as so often it has been the German Chencellor to create a Europe-wide problem, which everybody else now has to deal with.

    An intelligently thought through response from the EU (unlikely) or at the very least from the controlling countries (is that really too much to hope for?) from the beginning could have limited the scale of the problem, and at the same time saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of rapes and saved a lot of money.

    The Germans particularly love to laugh at the English and our unlovely habit of muddling through; but Cameron’s approach of trying to provide safe havens for Syrian refugees nearby Syria was obviously a far more intelligent and humane response than Merkel’s.

    A similar approach of creating a holding area outside Europe should aslo have been adopted.

    If the problem is dealt with now, immediately, the damage can be contained. With minimal inhumanity.

    Because it doesn’t seem to pose an immediate threat to Germany, we know it won’t be and the consequences are unpredictable. They won’t be pleasant.

    It is shaping up to be one of the most catastrophic political events in history (in a crowded field).

    No civilization in history has sat so supinely by while such a calamitous episode unfolded.

  6. Italy has plenty of small islands. Perhaps their contribution should be concentrating all migrants on one and telling Brussels to provide for them, then scuttling every single NGO rescue boat after it comes into port.

  7. abacab +1

    We also need to see executives of these cursed anti-Western NGO’s doing porridge.

  8. An NGO code of conduct, eh? Given that they are 100% on the side of the migrants, and are only limited by capacity in their desire to get as many of them over here as possible, what good will a “code of conduct” do?

  9. A similar approach of creating a holding area outside Europe should aslo have been adopted.

    I thrashed this out with a Turkish friend of mine. I reached the conclusion that the only answer is to seal the borders of Syria and shoot anyone who tries to cross it. Safe areas don’t work, even in Syria, because the can’t be policed. And as they can’t be policed, they just become mini-war zones in their own right run by nasty strongmen. Harsh though it is, the Syrians ought to stay in their own country and sort their mess out. Of course, it would help if numerous outsiders stopped using their turf as the venue for a dick-waving contest.

  10. Mercow intended to do what she has done. No accident about it.

    The NGO ships need to be seized on the high sea and the crew taken of prior to sinking said ships . Followed by fines and the widespread forced dissolution of all NGOs. And the arrest of Soros and his brats. Sabotage, treason and sedition would do to begin with.

    Also needed is the establishment of a list of top globalists together with their personal details–ie where to find them and theirs. Including –if known–what their shelter arrangements are in the event of nuclear war. As well as the UK taking back control of Trident from the Yanks and a massive check for all the backdoors and hacking points they will have installed in the software. With UK control re-established we should then post a plan for every elite bunker everywhere –including govt ones–to be hit with a one-after-the-other barrage of heavy nukes. Such that a nuke will drop on their bunker every 5 minutes until the bunker is destroyed. If the bunker is under a mountain it might take 10 nukes to destroy said mountain and another 10 to 20 to dig down and destroy the bunker.

    This tactic will ensure that everybody dies in the event of nuclear war and their are no safe bunkers that might tempt elite trash to think they can call a “limited” nuclear war and emerge from their hidey holes with all the groundwork for their Plan 2030 done. 1000 million proles left to be turned into techno-peasants and an elite of socialistic scum to rule forever etc. This way the “elite” know they and their brats die too.

    Perhaps that is wild speculation but it often looks as if Western morons seem to be doing their best to whip up so kind of war so it would be worthwhile insurance against just some such foolishness.

    Clearly an attempt at social engineering on a global scale is underway and it must be halted and those involved punished with maximum severity.

  11. “Biggie – Once aain, as so often it has been the German Chencellor to create a Europe-wide problem, which everybody else now has to deal with.”

    Well, yes and no. I think you will find Africans attempting the crossing in ever-increasing numbers regardless of Merkel. This is a problem for the next several decades, and the influence of Merkel’s ill-chosen words is going to be a tiny blip in that.

    “@BiG: the Schengen agreement doesn’t have the word `citizen` anywhere in it that I can find.”

    True, but it does rather rely on the overwhelming majority of people in Schengen being there legally. States have a duty to protect their external borders which conflicts with the whole “be nice to invading economic migrants” thing, and to a lesser extent with the actual duty to actual refugees (by all accounts a tiny number of the arrivals, even according to the UN).

  12. This is not really new. De facto border controls exist, as I can attest on a recent journey from Slovenia to Austria, where the old border post has been resurrected.
    of course, they do not call them border controls–simply identity checks and if you have the wrong passport or none at all.
    The people doing the checking were armed and clearly had been given their instructions.
    A traffic jam near Salzburg airport (our destination) we were told was due to similar “checks” at the German border.
    All the talk of “free movement”, etc. has been in practice abandoned.
    Peter

  13. Goodnames

    “Time to re-colonise Africa”

    Problem solved! Everyone ends up better off (apart from a few African despots).

  14. I think you will find Africans attempting the crossing in ever-increasing numbers regardless of Merkel. This is a problem for the next several decades, and the influence of Merkel’s ill-chosen words is going to be a tiny blip in that.

    We will only find would-be colonists attempting the crossing in ever-increasing numbers for as long as we collude with them, with the criminals behind them, and with evil people like George Soros and Peter Sutherland.

    This could easily be stopped: but it won’t be for a long time yet. There are elements in our own society who are hell-bent on creating problems whose solution will require the skills of a Cromwell (that’s if we’re very lucky – a Heydrich if we aren’t), rather than a Thatcher.

  15. Italy has plenty of small islands. Perhaps their contribution should be concentrating all migrants on one and telling Brussels to provide for them, then scuttling every single NGO rescue boat after it comes into port.

    And the port in question should be on the African coast.

    All “rescued” boats should be towed back to their point of origin. And then scuttled. The word will soon get round to both the traffickers and the migrants, and the numbers of people drowning in the Med will reduce.

    As shown by the Australians.

    As the NGOs are currently killing people, they should be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter.

  16. a code of conduct for NGO ships rescuing asylum seekers off Libya.

    Sink the invaders. Sink the NGO’s.

  17. Catch migrant boat, tow it to nearest beach. Give those on it 2 mins to get to shore, then sink it. Repeat until they learn.

    Presumably once the NGO monkeys have been on a beach for a few hours with several hundred angry would-be migrants, they’ll stop volunteering.

  18. It is a fairly adaptive system I suspect. Once ‘migrants’ realise that having paid the people smugglers their life savings the probability of ending up right back where they started are greater than 50% they will stop asking to leave. Similarly once the people smugglers realise that once apprehended, their boat will be scuttled and any crew members banged up in prison in, say Turkey, then they will have neither the boats nor the crews. Meanwhile the Tristans can go back to selling each other tie dye tea shirts or whatever else they are qualified for.

  19. A traffic jam near Salzburg airport (our destination) we were told was due to similar “checks” at the German border.

    I crossed the Rhine last week from France into Germany and noticed the French were running checks on those coming the other way, causing a tailback. When I re-crossed a few days later, they were gone.

  20. Ecks, you should be writing science fiction novels. Ones that would have a rather limited audience, but would sell none the less.

  21. BiG: [Schengen] States have a duty to protect their external borders

    A duty that is performed in a desultory and lackadaisical manner when it’s clear that the throng is in transit to a further destination.

  22. Disappointed that there are few libertarian market-based solutions being offered.
    The reason this nonsense exists in the first place is that people are willingly risking their savings with traffickers to come to northern Europe to work.

  23. That’s what they are saying – we can charge them £20000 per head for a work permit stamped NRTPF ( refundable on return to home country with a clean criminal record ).
    That would sort out those who want to work from those who are fibbing.
    Not one single person should get refugee status – that’s a sympathy solution not a market-based one.

  24. Catch the boats in the Med. Land the passengers in some spot in Libya where we’ve bribed the local warlords to let us do that. Tell them to sod off.

  25. Dearieme – I agree, except we don’t need to bribe anyone. We just need to send in the Royal Marines to clear a beach head and establish a perimeter. I’m not suggesting fighting our way inland, but the North African irregulars are not the wehrmacht.

  26. …to come to northern Europe to work

    What colour is the sky in your world?

    That’s what they are saying

    That is a surprise..:)

    we can charge them £20000 per head for a work permit stamped NRTPF

    Most countries have systems in place for those with good skills / money, that don’t involve needing to go via Libya and a rubber dinghy?

  27. Mr Ecks,

    Soros a traitor? He’s a yank ffs. How can he be a traitor to any European country? Pretty much same for sedition too. That leaves the very, very dubious charge of sabotage.

    Trident controlled by the Yanks? Where’s the communications channel?

    Stick to demanding mass sackings and confiscations – both things that you would fine and rant about if the left were suggesting they should be applied to human beings.

  28. Italy invading Libya? Where have I heard that one before? But, yes, good idea.

    @TMB “A duty that is performed in a desultory and lackadaisical manner when it’s clear that the throng is in transit to a further destination.”

    In part, but a lot of the colonialists stay in Italy. Even 15 years ago, so long before the current crisis, Milan was surrounded by encampments and shanty towns, certain areas full of residential blocks with the balconies shrouded (extra living space).

    Perhaps it feels more like home than Austria.

  29. The warlords would gladly take them back because you can sell them another ticket on a dinghy.

  30. Catch the boats in the Med. Land the passengers in some spot in Libya where we’ve bribed the local warlords to let us do that. Tell them to sod off.

    That’s similar to my Dad’s solution: pay the local warlords to not allow them onto boats in the first place.

  31. Biggie–It is a heavyweight plan but given the attempts of neo-cons and other groups to stir up as much trouble as possible–Killery’s no fly zone vs Russian jets etc–a little insurance might not be a bad idea. You would be a foolish man to underestimate the depths of human evil.

    se- “Soros a traitor? He’s a yank ffs. How can he be a traitor to any European country? Pretty much same for sedition too. That leaves the very, very dubious charge of sabotage”

    He needs to be charged with something. Most of the worlds gubmint scum have little problem tricking up shite when it suits them. Charge the fucker with financial dirty dealings–whatfuckingever. So long as his little game is all smashed up. Unless you’re a fan of his of course.

    “Trident controlled by the Yanks? Where’s the communications channel?”

    The software/system etc are Fedyank in origin. Are you stupid enough to imagine that those control freaks didn’t put in back-door shut downs and controls? (Yes you are ) Because the Fed’s want poodles not allies.

    Maybe they didn’t manage to do such a thing. But only an idiot–ie you–would not check to be sure.

    “Stick to demanding mass sackings and confiscations – both things that you would fine and rant about if the left were suggesting they should be applied to human beings.”

    Mass sackings and confiscations of the pensions of leftists ( which in fact like all state pensions have already been confiscated anyway) who are working to turn society in a tyrannical shithole. You of course would do fuck all but whine and when the hammer comes down you would be up there shouting “Why didn’t somebody do something”.

    As for confiscation the left started it long ago. Nor am I preventing them working for a living in the market. They just need to be stopped from spreading evil on the taxpayers money.

    And who the fuck are the left going to sack. The public sector?

  32. > That’s similar to my Dad’s solution: pay the local warlords to not allow them onto boats in the first place.

    No, that’s Danegeld. Don’t pay them a penny: just threaten to shoot them if they interfere with disembarkation.

  33. Bongo: “The reason this nonsense exists in the first place is that people are willingly risking their savings with traffickers to come to northern Europe to work.”

    What skills do you think they have that Europe needs, then?

  34. Harry Powell

    Is this the acceptable PC way to describe GoodNames’ excellent “win-win” solution above…

  35. Take a look at the UN population protections for sub-Saharan Africa in the coming decades.

    As they said in Jaws, “you’re going to need a bigger boat.”

  36. “Time to re-colonise Africa”: I think you must mean that it’s time for the white/brown/yellow diaspora to return, in part, to its continent of origin. You can always concoct some yarn about God promising it to them.

  37. Harry Powell,

    I don’t see how you can square the Charter City idea with Tim Newman’s observation that: “Safe areas don’t work, even in Syria, because they can’t be policed. And as they can’t be policed, they just become mini-war zones in their own right run by nasty strongmen.”

    Without the civilising presence of Brits and/or Chinese, your island colony will look less like Hong Kong / Singapore, and more like Haiti.

  38. @Julia What skills do you think they have that Europe needs, then?

    The counter to that is to ask: Do you want a government committee deciding what skills are required or do you want the market to work it out.
    Those coming in would have to be disease-free, and have no criminal record.
    Rule of law is required of course, and that initially means building more prisons and hiring more bobbies to pick up the vagrants and law-breakers who can’t hold down a job and get them deported, along with a magistrate who says you’re not getting your deposit back.

  39. Andrew, safe areas don’t work because there is no rule of law there, institutions have to be put in place first. Not a trivial task I admit, but that’s where the charter matters.

  40. Interesting to see Bill Gates go against the tech oligarch conventional wisdom and say publicly that Europe can’t keep accepting all these refugees indefinitely. Ultimately it’s a numbers game, and there are just so many Africans that allowing unlimited migration into Europe can only end up destroying the prosperity that attracted them in the first place.

  41. Bongo–Fantasy.

    The “bobbies” are on their side not ours.

    Vast numbers of imports are illiterate in their own language never mind ours. Large numbers are from very bad cultures and have no intention of working or respecting women or private property and haven’t been doing so from whence they came. Or is it likely folk arrive in somebody’s country and decide rape, violence and thieving are the new behaviours they should adopt. They are continuing the lifestyle they are used to living. Considering some of the antics the imports have been caught at it makes you wonder what the hell they have been getting away with where they come from.

  42. My take on Africa is: NOMFUP.

    Schemes to civilise the place are doomed to failure since we retreated from racist 19th century colonialism. Either Africans will fix their problems, or they won’t. Everything we do makes it worse.

    Whether there’s 1 billion or 30 billion Africans, I wish them well in their own continent. We are not the bruthas’ keepers.

  43. Considering some of the antics the imports have been caught at it makes you wonder what the hell they have been getting away with where they come from.

    A lot of the time their behaviour is worse here: the locals won’t stand for it back where they come from, whereas Plod rushes to protect them in the UK.

  44. Safe areas – this can work if they are turned into walled police states. This is a better alternative for many migrants than staying where they were coming from. Actually, a drawback of building a safe city in the logical place for it – Lybia – is that it is likely to act like a magnet for Sub-Saharan Africans.

    I have no doubt a safe state solution can work, but it requires a lot of money and will. What are the odds that even if all the EU countries agree to it to start with, that the Brits stand alone within 5 years.

    A cruel but effective solution would be to divided the sub-saharan border into strips, with a tribe of some sort responsible for each. We pay each tribe leader £100m dollars each ever year…BUT… for each migrant that manages to make it across they receive £10m less. AND if they consistently fail they are forcibly removed and the franchise granted to somebody else.

    Of course, a wall along the entire border of Europe (including with Turkey and another along Turkey’s southern border) would be the best solution but the cost would make Trump’s wall look like a picket fence.

    If the EU is struggling with Syrian migration just wait for Egypt or Turkey falling apart – they must have, what, a 100m people each? Pretty scary really.

  45. @Bongo – “Do you want a government committee deciding what skills are required or do you want the market to work it out.”

    I want the forces of law and order to not let any of the fuckers in. Not a single one. I don’t give a shit if we miss out on the next Bill Gates.

    The libertarian ‘let the market decide’ attitude fails miserably when it comes to immigration from 3rd world shitholes.

    I know the folk on Samizdata reckon that without the welfare state no-one would ever migrate, apart from highly-skilled and useful fellows, but this is abject bollocks.

    There are millions languishing in the world’s shitholes who will try to come to Europe in order to panhandle what they can regardless. In 2 decades time it will be billions.

  46. Landlords take rent/damage deposits and rent in advance for a reason. It concentrates the mind of the tenants.
    I wonder if Mr Ecks seriously thinks the same process would not operate when you’ve paid a few years income for a refundable visa.
    Or if he thinks the behaviours of people who expect public funds and are already criminals on arrival are a good way to judge non-criminals who come in legally.
    Some people just hate market mechanisms when it comes to immigration.

  47. The market-haters seem to believe that non-criminals are just ‘not yet criminals’.
    Yet afaik with one exception the people who have blown us up and mown us down since July 2005 were largely home-grown and already criminals.

  48. The problem is that because the EU has not sent a strong message that illegal immigrants will be deported – they’ve encouraged this. The UNHCR is complicit – they need to make it clear that economic migrants get no protection from the refugee laws.Once a determination that someone is an economic migrant is made, they lose all protection and get kicked out. Anyone who lies about being a refugee should lose all appeals and be automatically deported.

    Anyone found to be an economic migrant should be dumped into a camp in the Sahara getting 3 basic meals a day and a roof and a bed. They can opt to go home or stay in the camp. No money for relocation – nothing to do but sit in the camp. There would swiftly be no more migration problem.

  49. BiW “As the NGOs are currently killing people, they should be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter.”

    And charge those that fund the NGOs with aiding and abetting.

    TiS,

    And the NUJ and MSM in general wonder why they are becoming increasingly irrelevant. They may have got away with that sort of censorship 30 years ago but the Internet is routing round them.

    I don’t blame the immigrants for trying, they live in some of the shittiest parts of the world where just trying to be successful is trodden down. The Idea of exporting what the immigrants seek is a good idea but I can’t see how it can be done without the use of force and a lot of condemnation from the UN, but they should be told to STFU, they’ve caused enough damage.


  50. I know the folk on Samizdata reckon that without the welfare state no-one would ever migrate, apart from highly-skilled and useful fellows, but this is abject bollocks.

    There are millions languishing in the world’s shitholes who will try to come to Europe in order to panhandle what they can regardless. In 2 decades time it will be billions.

    Yup.

  51. Bongo,

    > the people who have blown us up were largely home-grown

    They were mostly second-generation immigrants.

    Since the problem is second-generation migrants, we just have to ensure that any migrants aren’t allowed children here. Spay them upon arrival; undo the op if they leave.

  52. Now, I’m not European, I’m Canadian, and I’m quite confused about how some of this stuff works in Europe, so maybe someone can help me out here. I keep seeing figures – especially relating to the situation in Germany – about how recent migrants are overwhelmingly and persistently unemployed – above 90%, or 95%. This seems to imply that they’re being supported by subventions from either the German state or the EU – but overwhelmingly, these migrants seem to have arrived outside legal asylum/refugee procedures, by crossing unguarded EU borders or arriving by sea. Is the EU or Germany (or other states) *really* giving welfare/grants/housing to undocumented migrants with no record of legal entry, or am I misunderstanding something?

  53. “Landlords take rent/damage deposits and rent in advance for a reason. It concentrates the mind of the tenants.”

    If your previous dwelling was a mud hut and you know the welfare wonders are still going to keep you in a style far beyond what you were previously at do you give a shit?

    “Or if he thinks the behaviours of people who expect public funds and are already criminals on arrival are a good way to judge non-criminals who come in legally.”

    Ah its the next generation of hardworking tech genii bollocks again.

    As far as I can see the vast majority of those here so far expect –and are getting OUR MONEY–fuck your public funds cockrot.

    The present arrivals are worse and more useless and entitled than those in the past. A million into Germany and 50+ are in work–assuming those aren’t a set up. These are international deadbeats not some Legion of Enterprise –Horatio Alger Division.

    You can’t have much in the way of a market mechanism when welfare is on the job. They are coming hear to freeload and they will drag us down. Violence and rape is just the shite icing on a shite cake.

    “The market-haters seem to believe that non-criminals are just ‘not yet criminals’.”

    Coming here to freeload off the native population is criminal in my book.

  54. hueshi – do you have links on that unemployment situation?

    Bongo – how do you price the market in my kids being able to walk down the street without being hassled by people who can’t talk their language and laugh at our police? Friend of mine has just taken his kid out of his (allegedly Roman Catholic) comp because he was being victimised by the black and Pakistan majority in the class. It will cost him £10k in school fees which he can ill afford but the thing that really boils my piss is that these cunts were welcomed here with open arms by Tony Blair and his pals – they haven’t even got the decency to be grateful. Ironman will say it’s racist to complain doubtless.

  55. @interested

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-survey-idUSKBN13A22F
    http://www.politico.eu/article/most-germany-migrants-fail-to-get-jobs-unemployment/

    Eventual numbers unlikely to be 90%, more like 50-60% in the end.

    @Hueshi
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-number-of-migrants-claiming-benefits-in-germany-surges-by-169-percent-2016-9?r=US&IR=T

    Illegal immigrants who are on temporary visas or who cannot be deported receive benefits from the state – this article says this number was 975,000 at the end of 2015 up from 363,000 in 2014. Note that some of these will turn out to be refugees and who then receive a wholly different set of benefits – this is what you get just on a temporary basis or if you are an illegal or in the processing queue. For instance this is the benefit that was being paid to the Berlin truck attacker Anis Amri, who was an illegal immigrant with no claim to being a refugee.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/world/europe/police-berlin-truck-attack.html

  56. “Friend of mine has just taken his kid out of his (allegedly Roman Catholic) comp because he was being victimised by the black and Pakistan majority in the class. It will cost him £10k in school fees which he can ill afford ”

    Every single word of that statement is a lie or paraphrasing a non sequitur.

  57. Interested – here’s one link giving 17%, although that’s the unemployment rate among those who are *looking*: https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f?mhq5j=e2

    Here’s one saying 13%: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-survey-idUSKBN13A22F

    I’ve seen higher numbers elsewhere but with less solid attribution. I’m wary of thinking of these as underestimates of employment, since migrants are difficult to survey and those without jobs more so than those with.

  58. It does make me smile that our host is one of the most classically liberal free market small government advocate out there. Heck he’d probably settle for a government strong on the rule of law that was 30% of national income, as long as the rest of the economy was free. Imv.
    And yet a good fraction of the commentators here want government involvement in setting committees to decide who is a genuine refugee, who gets subsidies, and who can come here to work, despite free movement of labour having the potential to make a far greater boost to world incomes than free trade.
    If Bob Geldof, Lily Alen and Yvette Cooper want to put down 200k deposit of their own money, plus 3 years medical insurance, at the home office to bring in 10 foreigners they care about ( who are identifiable and of no previous convictions ) on work visas stamped NRTPF, then I think they should be blooming well allowed to. And if any immigrant harasses the daughter of Interested then they lose half the deposit, and on second offence lose the rest along with deportation.
    Government says these virtue-signalling celebs can’t do that. It’s refugees only. And yet some lefties on here think Geldof is the problem not the government.

  59. Catch the boats in the Med. Land the passengers in some spot in Libya where we’ve bribed the local warlords to let us do that. Tow the boat back out to sea and sink it. Tell them to sod off.

    If we are in a good mood do NOT tie the NGO honchos to the mast efore sinking. However that’s as far as my sense of mercy will stretch.

  60. “Is the EU or Germany (or other states) *really* giving welfare/grants/housing to undocumented migrants with no record of legal entry, or am I misunderstanding something?”

    Yes, they are and no you are not misunderstanding.

    Please reassure me (despite the grammar and vocabulary – my understanding that Canada is a diverse place) that Canada woud not give housing, benefits, refuge, and etc. to persons with not only undocumented entry but with documented illegal entry?

    Because we call thought Canada was all wishy-washy liberal and stuff.

    So what do you do with boat people?

  61. The software/system etc are Fedyank in origin. Are you stupid enough to imagine that those control freaks didn’t put in back-door shut downs and controls? (Yes you are ) Because the Fed’s want poodles not allies.

    You really are a complete dickhead at times. Stick to ranting and away from complex stuff.

    What did I ask? Ah, yes, “Where is the communications channel”.

    Because, of course, we do test launches of all sorts and, without a communications channel to signal your shutdown, control, block whatever, guess what? It won’t work.

    They could always shut down P-code GPS but, guess what? Both the subs and the missiles have been designed around the fact that GPS might not, just possibly, be available when you are in to second strike thermonuclear war territory.

    Maybe they didn’t manage to do such a thing. But only an idiot–ie you–would not check to be sure.

    And do you know what we have or haven’t done?

  62. Bloke in Germany – right, that’s the thing. You can come into Canada in one of three ways:
    1. Through one of the approved primary categories of immigrant (skilled, investor, family) – in which case you’ve already been vetted as unlikely to need welfare, but are approved for things like schooling. This is most immigration.
    2. As a refugee/asylum-seeker – where you are eligible for government support, but to qualify for this, you have to be originating in a country on the list of “refugee-generating” countries, and have a well-founded fear of persecution/violence. And if you want to claim this status, you have to do it upon arrival. Whereupon you may be detained while your application is processed, or you may be allowed to live in a certain city with regular bail-style check-ins with the government. If your asylum application is rejected, you’ll be deported promptly.
    3. Without registration or documentation. In this case, since you don’t have a Social Insurance Number or proof of legal residency, it’s likely to be *very* difficult to access banking, healthcare, welfare, schooling, driver’s licenses or other ID, most jobs, and so on. Some cities and provinces provide various benefits without demanding proof of legal residency, but they’re few and far between.

    Boat people are detained, and if they originate from a country on the list, they’re allowed to apply for asylum, though this may not be granted. If not originating from such a country, they’re deported.

    Being undocumented is just extremely uncommon in Canada, and asylum is not often granted.

  63. SE–So you are a nuclear engineer and a software expert as well?

    We still have a system we didn’t create sold to us by “allies” with a track record of looking out for their own interest above everyone else.

    The rest of your rave means fuck all. No one is going to sell crook gear that can be spotted in “tests”. Even with radio silence if there is any difference in procedure between a test and an actual launch the software could still shut it down.

    In a lower level situation in which the UK was launching retaliation against limited antagonists without full international warfighting capabilities–say Pakistan/North Korea/ Iran etc– there might not be total radio silence and a channel might well be opened. Assuming the Yanks don’t have a way of passing a signal to a submerged vessel.

    Of course if your vast knowledge of everything rules it out fair enough.

    “And do you know what we have or haven’t done?”

    Doubtless you of course do know. Tho’ If the software HAS been checked then my idea can’t be that nutty can it.

  64. “It does make me smile that our host is one of the most classically liberal free market small government advocate out there. Heck he’d probably settle for a government strong on the rule of law that was 30% of national income, as long as the rest of the economy was free. Imv.”

    What has any of that to do with anything on this thread?

    ” And yet a good fraction of the commentators here want government involvement in setting committees to decide who is a genuine refugee, who gets subsidies, and who can come here to work, despite free movement of labour having the potential to make a far greater boost to world incomes than free trade.”

    Absolute bullshit. It is obvious and has been pointed out several times already that large numbers of arrivals are not nice chaps looking for a better life who would give a shit if they lose their deposit let alone if Bob Geldof loses his deposit. They want to get here to continue their lousy lifestyles at a much higher level of abundance paid for by what is left of Europe’s white taxpaying mugs.

    As for committees–fuck ’em. We don’t need no stinkin’ committees if we let none in. Certainly no more RoP and no SubSahara.

    “If Bob Geldof, Lily Alen and Yvette Cooper want to put down 200k deposit of their own money, plus 3 years medical insurance, at the home office to bring in 10 foreigners they care about ( who are identifiable and of no previous convictions ) on work visas stamped NRTPF, then I think they should be blooming well allowed to.”

    None of that Home Office horseshit sounds very Libertarian. On those kind of terms for 10 imports there would be near-zero takers anyway. What sanctions are there for the imported themselves if they transgress. Bob’s going to hit them with his fine Irish invective?

    “And if any immigrant harasses the daughter of Interested then they lose half the deposit, and on second offence lose the rest along with deportation.”

    And how is Bob or Crybaby Allen going to stop migrants in the throes of a sexual emergency?

    And who is keeping track of all this shite when the Home Office Halfwits don’t even know who is here let alone be able to keep tabs on their criminal antics.

    ” Government says these virtue-signalling celebs can’t do that. It’s refugees only.”

    They neither can nor would adopt your nutty scheme. Because they would be down vast sums of money very quickly because of antics they could do nothing practical to stop.

    ” And yet some lefties on here think Geldof is the problem not the government.”

    Anyone with daft plans to allow vast numbers of imported folk in is the problem. Whether that is the malicious scum of the left or half-baked “Libertarians” with the attitude that international freeloaders can draw on a welfare state and be shaped by a fools notion of market forces at the same time.

  65. @Bongo

    That’s an interesting point. What is the philosophical basis for refugee and asylum laws? From a high liberal viewpoint, – Rawlsian, you can see the basis quite easily. I think the Libertarian viewpoint would require some more thought. I suspect that the argument many would make here is that in a Libertarian world, there would be little redistribution and welfare, which would then make free movement a matter for the individual. In practice given the provision of state services and the need to create a social contract, free movement would be curtailed, but given basic human rights – I can see a case for asylum etc.

  66. Nukes usually only require one. Maybe 2 for the most sheltered places, spaced sufficiently far apart in time.
    Technology caught up with reality in the 60s, hardened targets have been targeted with relevant technology since.
    A ground burst is a lot less damaging than an airburst but with a penetrator can take out major mountain places. You would not waste an airburst on the best protected bunkers.

    Just need accuracy, penetrator and a ground burst.
    Oh and a suitable size missile head.

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