Seems a bit harsh

Grenfell Tower survivors could be deported in 12 months despite government immigration amnesty

You were in a fire so we’re going to deport you?

Theresa May has U-turned on a promise not to carry out immigration checks on Grenfell fire victims, leaving survivors who need help at risk of deportation if they come forward.

The Prime Minister pledged in Parliament not to use the tragedy as an excuse to check residents’ immigration status, but ministers confirmed anyone wanting help must register with Home Office officials and be subject to normal immigration rules after 12 months.

Ah, no. Illegal immigrants will get 12 months to continue to be illegal in. Can’t quite see what the basic demand is here. Illegals become not illegal because they’ve been in a fire?

67 comments on “Seems a bit harsh

  1. Grenfell is a scandal. But for different reasons than the MSM is chanting, I suspect most people think.

  2. What BiF said, times 1000000!

    I was sympathetic at first, as many people no doubt were. But now the MSM’s constant dripfeeding of yet more ‘sob stories’ has just exposed the vast yawning gulf between the lives these people lead and the lives ordinary working taxpayers live.

    Last night, I watched a BBC interview with a woman who was offered a flat but hadn’t taken it. When asked why not, she replied ‘I haven’t seen it yet’. It was in Westminster. Not the sodding Amazon.

    GET ON A BUS, YOU LAZY COW!

  3. And I read in the ‘Metro’ today that the council has grandly announced that they will all get a year’s ‘free’ rental on replacement flats. A year!

  4. @JuliaM – AARGH!

    Some of those are people who aren’t even supposed to be here, who were illegally occupying illegally-sublet council properties are treated better than the working natives!

  5. Shame on you Tim.Worstall.these people are VICTIMS. And as anybody with half a brain can tell tiu, bad things only happen to good people.

  6. On Today yesterday that had one of the residents on exposing why he’d refused a place – it was a long way from Grenfell. When pushed it turned out to be 15 minutes.

    It’s getting increasingly harder to maintain any sense of sympathy for their current plight.

    And add to that the MP for the area who claims that the judge appointed to lead the enquirey should stand down because he lacks “empathy” with the victims. FFS we want to know the truth about what happened not how the victims felt and how much the enquiry empathised with them.

  7. I don’t really understand the calls for special treatment. What happens to other council tenants when their house burns down? I am guessing they are offered other accommodation somewhere or other, and if they don’t like it the council doesn’t bend over backwards to rent them a flat aimed at high earning private tenants just because. At the end of the day it is about cost. There is no reason to set an idiotic precedent in this case.

    Same goes for immigration status. Why throw away the rules because something horrible happened? Doing this incentivises the survival of horrible events (e.g. Setting fire to your flat for reasons of immigration approval and better accommodation).

  8. On LBC phone ins yesterday it sounded like the main problem with the judge was too white.

  9. Compare and contrast to the treatment of white Zimbabweans with British passports fleeing to the UK a few years back. They got absolutely nothing – weren’t considered refugees cos they were British citizens, couldn’t get any State support whatsoever.

    And here we are letting illegal immigrants pick and choose what free accomodation they get.

    Sympathy is indeed becoming limited.

    A little Gedankenexperiment – imagine a tower in Paris burned down and turned out to be half-full of e.g. Canadians and Americans illegally in France. What would the French do?

  10. Tomsmith: “There is no reason to set an idiotic precedent in this case.”

    Unless you’re a weak PM, desperate to cling on to power, leading a wet shower of Tories-in-name-only, I suppose…

  11. And add to that the MP for the area who claims that the judge appointed to lead the enquirey should stand down because he lacks “empathy” with the victims.

    He actually wasn’t political enough, so he has to go.

    Call me cynical, but the number of illegal immigrants who will claim to have been at Grenfell will exceed by a significant factor the actual population of the tower.

  12. So, alternative accommodation is “too far away” for some of the (former) Grenfell residents.
    Not as far away as the distance they travelled to get here in the first place I’ll wager…

  13. JuliaM,

    We need a bit more of the ‘take a bus you lazy cow’ attitude from politicians.

    The problem with the Conservative party is the parliamentary party is run by noblesse oblige one nationers who see the working people simply in terms of what they provide for the government in tax. It’s all ‘compassion’ but no one asks about some consideration for the buggers paying for it.

    And it’s why the Tories don’t win. Why we had 3 lame election results. “Oh we need to make it clearer how much we love the poors”. No, the poors and the people who want more for the poors are never going to vote for you. It’s like marketing make up to cricket fans.

    Which isn’t to say that you say fuck the poors, but maybe you stick to the basics. A bit more ‘take the bus you lazy cow’ rather than being polite and meek in defending the decision.

    If I was a working 30 year old, what are the Tories doing for me? Seriously? Actually (and yes it’s not sustainable) Corbyn is offering more.

  14. Apparently, 19 families have declined help, having already left the country. Hmmm…

  15. > No, the poors and the people who want more for the poors are never going to vote for you.

    They’re trying to avoid the “Nasty Party” label. Voters actually respond to that (women in particular, I suspect).

  16. I can see what the basic demand is – a blanket amnesty for all criminals who were, or can claim to have been, in Grenfell Tower at the time of thje blaze.

  17. Emma Dent Coad is creating a big fuss so that she can claim that the judge is prejudiced when he points out that *she* is to blame for the cladding, as a director of the company at the time that it was decided to install it, so potentially liable to be charged with corporate manslaughter.

  18. Andrew M–And which stupid bitch gave ZaNu the “Nasty Party” phrase to use?

    Why Dress Up of course.

    It would likely have cost Labour a small fortune had some publicity hack come up with that line. Assuming a publicity hack had wits enough to have come up with it. And it still would have been far less use to them had not a supposed “Conservative” said it.

  19. Mr Ecks,

    I agree entirely. The Tories have managed to pull themselves out of this mess before though. Remember the benefit cap? They announced a cap of £400. People grumbled, the left moaned. Then someone clarified that it was £400 per week. Suddenly the public realised that that was more than many of them earned, and that it was a perfectly reasonable cap.

    Applying the same logic to Grenfell Tower, you find some nice flats to rent, offer to pay the victims’ £500 rent for one year. Then reveal that it’s £500/week in rent. Sympathy crashes.

  20. “Can’t quite see what the basic demand is here. Illegals become not illegal because they’ve been in a fire?”

    Yes, pretty much. They’ve been through an absolutely harrowing experience as a result of a failure of government. There are only a handful of them. Why not err on the side of a) compassion and b) not looking like a bell-end?

    Really, this whole incident demonstrates how shit the government is at doing anything. Not only did they cause the problem in the first place though reckless neglect, but they’ve since proven utterly incapable of responding in any sensible way.

    It’s really not hard. First thing they should have done is offered £5k in cash per resident, so people could buy new clothes, shoes, etc, and rent themselves somewhere else to live. Then give them all full citizenship too, so they have one less bit of hassle in their lives. At that point the problem of what to do with all the people made homeless by the far is solved, and for an extremely reasonable cost compared to the amounts already spent.

  21. Abacab>

    “A little Gedankenexperiment – imagine a tower in Paris burned down and turned out to be half-full of e.g. Canadians and Americans illegally in France. What would the French do?”

    Set fire to the other towers – the ones full of dark-skinned French people. I’m not sure ‘less racist than the French’ tells you much about how racist you are.

  22. The illegals were doing quite nicely thank you very much without too much help. No doubt when the fuss quietens down they will slink off into another corner, and continue much as before. The problem here is not the illegals, its all the bloody bleeding-heart liberal do-gooders.

  23. Dave: “Then give them all full citizenship too, so they have one less bit of hassle in their lives. ”

    No. You want to give out 5k–you give them your 5K. Subsistence only until matters are clarified. Your bleeding heart bleeds other peoples money.

    As for citizenship –those here illegally get deported double-quick. No compo for anyone until it is all sorted. Because the “victims” also have in their ranks crooks for whom the tax/rate payers have been fronting –£1600 a month was it ?–so they can sub-let.

    Your supposed “compassion” is as bogus the rest of your mask of sanity.

    BTW you forgot to mention the Jewish connection. Since its you there must be one.

  24. “It’s really not hard. First thing they should have done is offered £5k in cash per resident, so people could buy new clothes, shoes, etc, and rent themselves somewhere else to live. Then give them all full citizenship too, so they have one less bit of hassle in their lives. At that point the problem of what to do with all the people made homeless by the far is solved, and for an extremely reasonable cost compared to the amounts already spent.”

    Do all council tenants (or their illegal subletters) get £5k if their council accommodation burns down? And the normalisation of the immigration status, if illegal? If not why not?

    Why should someone who has just had their semi-detached council house burn down and maybe lose a family member in the fire get nothing, except maybe charity and a bedsit?

    Or maybe one should create an incentive for people to burn their buildings down?

  25. Dave: “There are only a handful of them. Why not err on the side of a) compassion and b) not looking like a bell-end?”

    Because, Dave, you thick little bastard, you never pay the Danegeld, or you’ll be overrun with bloody Danes before you can blink!

  26. “Do all council tenants (or their illegal subletters) get £5k if their council accommodation burns down? And the normalisation of the immigration status, if illegal? If not why not? ”

    Exactly. Changing rules just because people have noticed that something happened sets an awful precedent. It is a meaningless gesture designed to make people feel better about themselves using other people’s money.

  27. Andrew M,

    “They’re trying to avoid the “Nasty Party” label. Voters actually respond to that (women in particular, I suspect).”

    The “nasty party” won 4 majorities, the worst of which was better than any Conservative majority since. OK, there were some nasty things about them, particularly a few conference speeches, maybe some of the social policy.

    When May first said it, that’s what I thought she meant. But really, she meant Thatcherism.

    There’s nothing “nasty” about saying that people who work should keep most of the fruits of their labour and that what is taken from them is spent well, and where it is spent on the poors, that the poors live worse than them. We should be capping housing benefit to the level of the cheapest parts of the UK and people can move there. “Oh, but they’ll be away from their community” shriek the Guardian. Yeah, and what working people aren’t doing the same things and upping sticks to get a job? Why should the poors get to live exactly where they want, while the average bloke is expected to spend an hour on a commute?

    As for women, you’re listening to the Guardian reading organic fairtrade green tea drinkers too much. Who do you think buys all those Daily Mails with stories about chavs with 8 kids?

  28. Dave: “…but they’ve since proven utterly incapable of responding in any sensible way.”

    Ther’ve offered four properties to one person, only to have them all thrown back in their faces by the ungrateful swines. What more could they do?

  29. BiS: “There’s nothing “nasty” about saying that people who work should keep most of the fruits of their labour and that what is taken from them is spent well, and where it is spent on the poors, that the poors live worse than them.”

    +1000

  30. Is it churlish to point out that had the illegals been following the law they would be alive.

  31. The offer seems vaguely fair – you can only get help if you register as being here (which will be interesting for the people who were officially tenanting the flats that were sub-let to illegal immigrants – remember they need to be dealt with too…).

    Not sure if the twelve-month thing is worthwhile, but if there is a need for more certainty about who was involved I can see why it might be offered.

    And for the likes of Dave, remember the state’s actions here could be as much about control (finding out who people are and who was doing something of which the state does not approve) as sympathy or empathy. If the government registers four floors worth of illegal immigrants who were in council flats, what do you think the political fall out of that is going to be – hint, it’s not going to be sympathetic or empathetic.

  32. This sub letting to illegals needs a lot more investigation and stamping on. TimN had a post recently about a Nigerian he met in Nigeria who was sub letting a council house.

    The Government needs to make it clear that the amnesty doesn’t extend to the head tenant who will be investigated and fined serious amounts of money and barred from having a social house in the future. If the lease doesn’t allow that they all need to be changed immediately.

    There’s plenty of hard working people waiting for better social housing being blocked.

  33. Watchman,

    “And for the likes of Dave, remember the state’s actions here could be as much about control (finding out who people are and who was doing something of which the state does not approve) as sympathy or empathy. If the government registers four floors worth of illegal immigrants who were in council flats, what do you think the political fall out of that is going to be – hint, it’s not going to be sympathetic or empathetic.”

    No, they aren’t. This isn’t what the Conservatives are like. They talk a lot of stuff, make a lot of gestures about stuff, but they don’t really care that much. They are cowards who will always err on the side of looking after illegal immigrants than erring on the side of looking after British people.

    I mistakenly assumed they’d learnt their lesson with Brexit, that they’d better grasp some nettles, but with ministers talking up spunking more money on students doing wanky degrees and grabbing more taxes, it’s just more submission to The Guardian, just like Cameron.

  34. “If the government registers four floors worth of illegal immigrants who were in council flats, what do you think the political fall out of that is going to be – hint, it’s not going to be sympathetic or empathetic”

    With added hilarity for the Nasty Party notionally being responsible for placing the illegals in those flats.

  35. BiND,

    Offer a bounty: find an illegal immigrant or subletter. Produce some reasonable evidence and get paid £1000 if they get prosecuted/deported.

    That would sort the problem of illegal immigrants out in months. Not that it’s going to happen, mind.

  36. Derail for the lolz;

    “I mistakenly assumed they’d learnt their lesson with Brexit”

    What is the lesson of Brexit?

    Been wondering about that for a bit, and suspect that nobody at all* has properly realised it yet, and certainly not worked it through.

    “Take back control” – the Vote Leave campaign, I think.

    Grenfell seems to be a good example of it. The elements of government at local and national level seem to be unable to manage the system that they’re notionally in control of. Seems to be a lot of those failures around.

    *Apart from me, obviously.

  37. From an acquaintance discussing this elsewhere…

    “I mentioned something earlier that nobody seems to have picked up on, and that is the mail. That has to be going somewhere, and that is likely the council as they will know who has been placed where, so there will be questions over assorted names which do not appear on any official record.

    I suspect that there may be more than just sub-letters who may be squeaking from the rear end at this time, information will be being gathered for future use, as throw in the usual multiple identities and you have the potential for one hell of a lot of benefit fraud to be uncovered, and since residency in the block will be being checked there’s the potential for all sorts of shenanigans to be uncovered…”

  38. “What is the lesson of Brexit?”

    There are millions of people who aren’t attending marches, aren’t writing for the Guardian or the Times, aren’t working in parliament as wonks or at the BBC, never walk into their surgeries, and aren’t the subject of Ken Loach movies.

    I think many MPs just have no clue about those people. They were raised upper class, went to uni, then went into something that’s basically state-supported like law or TV journalism. They know the poor – they meet them in surgeries – but they don’t meet the strugglers, the Daily Mail/Sun reader types who are getting by.

  39. BiS,

    I was talking about the state, not a political party – and the state is never nice and seems pretty well incapable of empathy. Political parties direct the state, but do not control it.

  40. BiND,

    I’d suggest not making a fuss until you have the subletters identified might be the easiest way of doing this – it’s a hell of a lot easier if you don’t panic them first.

    And politically, any smart Conservatives will want to save the subletting issue up to use as a weapon at an appropriate time.

  41. “any smart Conservatives”

    The sound of crickets is all that disturbs a silence deeper than the Universe looking down from the top of the space/time bubble.

  42. I’m trying, not very hard, to understand Dave’s P O V

    If I was a young African, I’d be trying to get out too.
    Trying to better your life is a normal human aspiration.
    Watching the arse end of a bullock is not a great life.
    Many of these migrants will turn out to be draft dodgers. But when the draft involves years, abuse, stolen wages, bad food, no training and the likelihood that you will be forced to attack your home viallage by a fantastically corrupt officer class, I think I’d try to dodge the draft too. In Eritrea and Puntland it’s 8 years, I think.
    The pull factor of a welfare state may be less important than the corruption factor of where you are.
    Having one law, and relatively impartial justice, is pretty attractive to a set of people who have a bit of customary, a bit of sharia, a residue of colonial law and some shit dreamt up by some former despot. We take our law for granted, for them it’s a lottery.

    OTOH
    If reports are correct it costs about £3000 to get smuggled. These are not your starving poor.
    For that kind of money you could open a mobile phone shop, buy some land to grow yams, or a fishing boat, bribe your way out of the draft, buy a fake degree to get you a government non job where no one checks to see you turn up, Maybe all 5.
    Many of these guys are being subbed by extended family. Maybe extended family thinks they can pretend to be brother, son, parent, etc. Also, if you are a bit sociopathic or start telling your aunt and uncle what clobber they need to put on to be good Moslems, they might well pay up to be rid of you.

    So we are probably getting the relatively rich, who are either shits or people who could make a real contribution to their homeland.

  43. Every time I read about illegal immigrants being let off giving freebies, i remember that i had to pay thousands in visa fees and fill in pages of paperwork to get my partner into the uk. I would have been better off to get her a tourist visa to france and smuggle her in the boot of my car. Get out of jail freecards destroy the incentive to act legally.

  44. K&C could well turn around and say “according to all official documentation, 26 people were living in Grenfell, and we have re-accommodated all 26 of them, job done.”

  45. Moqifen: +1 on that, I did exactly the same in the 1990s for my wife, and it pisses me off people screaming from the rooftops that other people should be able to bypass it.

  46. “Political parties direct the state, but do not control it.”

    They could write a new budget that set all public spending to £0. That would destroy the state. So, they control it.

    They just like using this talk as an excuse for inaction.

  47. “I suspect that there may be more than just sub-letters who may be squeaking from the rear end at this time, information will be being gathered for future use, as throw in the usual multiple identities and you have the potential for one hell of a lot of benefit fraud to be uncovered, and since residency in the block will be being checked there’s the potential for all sorts of shenanigans to be uncovered…”

    I said some time back that any wrong doing uncovered in the Grenfell disaster will be swept under the carpet sharpish, the authorities won’t have the balls to prosecute people for anything to do with it. They’ll just want the whole thing to go away, not least because the authorities are up to their necks in it themselves and the last thing they want is it being dragged out longer than absolutely necessary. They’ll probably announce (if they haven’t already) an amnesty for all illegal subletters on the grounds of ‘needing to identify the victims is more important than prosecuting people’ or some other tosh.

  48. “Offer a bounty: find an illegal immigrant or subletter. Produce some reasonable evidence and get paid £1000 if they get prosecuted/deported”

    Marxlamic cockrot.

    I would have thought libertarians would applaud the entrepreneurial skills of immigrants not paying tax and making a killing using loopholes in the hated state bureaucracy, living between the lines as a proper libertarian vanguard.

    Are you scared because they can actually flourish where you poor saps try and use the official channels.

  49. Grenfell seems to be a good example of it. The elements of government at local and national level seem to be unable to manage the system that they’re notionally in control of. Seems to be a lot of those failures around.

    Oh yes, Dale Farm 11 anyone !

  50. “they can actually flourish where you poor saps try and use the official channels”
    That’s the attitude of La Cosa Nostra.

  51. “I would have thought libertarians ”

    Libertarians? Try Samizdata for that kind of political fantasist. Believing in markets and capitalism doesn’t mean you need to adopt 6th form style political posturing as well.

  52. @Bloke in North Dorset, July 6, 2017 at 8:09 am

    On Today yesterday that had one of the residents on exposing why he’d refused a place – it was a long way from Grenfell. When pushed it turned out to be 15 minutes.

    It’s getting increasingly harder to maintain any sense of sympathy for their current plight.

    Yet DM is reporting today many are refusing accomodation as it is too close to Greenfail tower and seeing it traumatises them.

    Maintain any sense of sympathy?

    Nope, that stopped two days after event when truth started to emerge and Gov’t did give £5,500 to each which Dave pretends to not know.

  53. Its a lot easier to ‘flourish’ when the authorities steadfastly refuse to enforce the law against you, but do enforce it against everyone else.

    If local councils were prepared to uphold the law equally they’d be going through their housing stock with a fine tooth comb right now to check exactly who is living in the accommodation they are providing, supposedly for people in need. Its obvious that in London especially vast numbers of ‘tenants’ are nothing of the sort. They won’t though, but they’ll be quite happy to go on taking massive amounts of money off motorists who happen to park in the wrong place for 5 minutes or momentarily enter a bus lane.

    Some laws are enforced and others aren’t. Its a pretty good position of power don’t you think, when you get to decide which laws are enforced and who gets a free pass?

  54. Swindon,

    “Offer a bounty: find an illegal immigrant or subletter. Produce some reasonable evidence and get paid £1000 if they get prosecuted/deported.”

    I really don’t like the idea of that, it has the potential to sow hatred in already fragile communities as vindictive residents report others on the off chance they might be illegals.

  55. Bloke in Swindon

    They could write a new budget that set all public spending to £0. That would destroy the state. So, they control it.

    There is no evidence that they could do any such thing. They can’t even write budget that is smaller than the previous one, the permanent goverment wouldn’t let them. The treasury tells the chancellor how much to raise, all he can do is shuffle the tax burden around a bit.

  56. Its a lot easier to ‘flourish’ when the authorities steadfastly refuse to enforce the law against you, but do enforce it against everyone else.

    Exactly.

  57. “Oh, but they’ll be away from their community” shriek the Guardian. ”

    And, to be honest, this might actually be the best thing to happen (both for them and the rest of the UK).

    Concentrating chavs and concentrating the Muslims doesn’t seem to be working very well. Its a lot harder to get away with happy-slapping, Burberry, honor killings and rape rings when you’re the only one of your demo on the block.

  58. Problem is, who would want the only one of either demos to move into their neighbourhood?

    I would expect either to be about as welcome as a reconnoitring pikey in a clapped out van.

  59. “Clearly, there’s no evidence you’ve tried at all.”

    Good comeback.

    The fact remains though that some of these people are looking after themselves first and foremost, regardless of any flak going their way.

    They are exactly like Mr Ecks, but living the dream. They are the embodiment of the ‘get on your bike’ principles.

    And undermining the leftist state in the process: people are getting fed up with these guys and wanting a purge.

    Everyone here is demanding more state power, even to the extent of spying on your neighbour.

  60. @ Jesus Christ, my neighbour isn’t my neighbour if they aren’t here legally.

    And that ‘get on your bike’ phrase meant just that, it did not mean ‘get in the back of a UK bound lorry to work in the black economy’.

  61. “And that ‘get on your bike’ phrase meant just that, it did not mean ‘get in the back of a UK bound lorry to work in the black economy’”

    What if they were on a bike in the back of a lorry?

  62. “Oh, but they’ll be away from their community” shriek the Guardian.”

    Weird isn’t that people from other lands who come to the UK are encouraged to form ‘communities’ to the exclusion of whitey, but whitey is told that having lots of people from other lands in his community is ‘a good thing’, and if he doesn’t like it he a hideous racist bigot.

    One might wonder when they are going to start bussing white kids into ethnic dominated State schools, to even up the ethnic balance a bit. Can’t see much evidence that being ‘hideously black’ is considered as bad as being ‘hideously white’.

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