So, who is being reasonable here?

Dame Angela offered a strikingly different take.

“There are two sides to this coin. We have to own up to the fact that women, since time immemorial, have gone out of their way to make themselves attractive. And unfortunately it has backfired on us – and this is where we are today.

“We must sometimes take blame, women. I really do think that. Although it’s awful to say we can’t make ourselves look as attractive as possible without being knocked down and raped,” the 92-year-old told Radio Times.

Not quite running with the zeitgeist there. Then there’s this:

Her comments drew a strong response from Rape Crisis England & Wales, which said in a statement: “It is a deeply unhelpful myth that rape and other forms of sexual violence are caused or ‘provoked’ by women’s sexuality or ‘attractiveness’.

“Rape is an act of sexual violence, power and control that has little to nothing to do with sexual desire. It is as insulting to men as it is to anyone to suggest they’re unable to take responsibility for their own behaviours and that the way a woman presents herself can cause them to lose control or force them to sexually harass or assault her.

“There is no excuse or mitigation for sexual violence and there is no circumstance in which it’s even partially the victim’s or survivor’s fault. Until we accept and acknowledge that, it will be very difficult for us as a society to reduce or prevent rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment or sexual abuse.”

The drunk to the point of comatose bird, wearing nowt but a belt and a bra, walking though the back streets bears no responsibility at all? Hmm, no, perhaps she doesn’t. But has she behaved irresponsibly?

25 comments on “So, who is being reasonable here?

  1. It’s a bit like leaving your front door unlocked and then being burgled. The moral responsibility for the crime lies entirely with the perpetrator.

    But you’ve still been really fucking stupid.

  2. Rape is an act of sexual violence, power and control that has little to nothing to do with sexual desire.

    Not anymore. Now they’ve diluted the definition down practically to a women regretting it the following morning it’s almost all about sexual desire.

  3. Rape is an act of sexual violence, power and control that has little to nothing to do with sexual desire.

    Not anymore. Now they’ve diluted the definition down practically to a women regretting it the following morning it’s almost all about sexual desire.

    (Fixed the quote!)

  4. I side with the feminists here. The drunk bird gets raped because she’s drunk and therefore less able to resist; not because she’s wearing a miniskirt.

  5. @MC

    Except that locking your door is really easy, clear cut, and done at no cost to your liberty.

    Women regulating their counduct/dress to minimise their risk of being attacked is different. It compromises their liberty. It exists on a scale (how drunk can she be? how short is too short in the skirt/cut top stakes, how sketchy an area is too sketchy etc).

    Plus, Timmy’s example is relevant to a tiny minority of assaults (proven or alleged).

    Everyone needs to know the world we are in and make allowances and adjustments. I don’t deny that at all. But your analogy is facile in the extreme.

  6. The problem isn’t beauty. It’s that we fail to tell women the truth.

    Strident feminists tell women they shouldn’t need men protecting them, that we have to stop rape (by what means they aren’t too clear). And we have a media that constantly backs up nonsense like ‘rape isn’t about sex’ even though nearly all rapists are low-status men.

    Meeting a producer in a hotel room? What part of your brain didn’t tell you to suggest meeting in a restaurant instead? I’d never suggest a meeting in a bedroom to a female colleague.

  7. I think I’ve commented this before, but not sure. What’s amusing is that the people who get up in arms about ‘blaming the victim’ when it comes to rape are completely copacetic (heh, thanks Tim) about attributing terrorism to western colonialism.

    Conversely, people who are quite comfortable with seeing a causality between lifestyle and increased risk of rape become apoplectic on suggestion that terrorism is anything other than inexplicable barbarity.

    Go figure.

  8. Perhaps more women should assume that a man being drunk is fair game for being pegged into next week. Perceptions around responsibility might shift a little.

  9. We know that rape can be about power. It can be a political act. After all people have told us before:

    “Rape was an insurrectionary act. It delighted me that I was defying and trampling upon the white man’s law, upon his system of values, and that I was defiling his women … I felt I was getting revenge. From the site of the act of rape, consternation spread outwardly in concentric circles. I wanted to send waves of consternation thoughout the white race.”

    Naturally we need to let more people like this in to the country.

    As far as the rather rare White-on-White rape (and I am reasonably willing to bet that White-on-Black rape virtually does not exist in the UK as it does not exist in the US) goes, it is not unreasonable to suggest that women could do more to prevent themselves being raped. But then White women do go out dressed like whores, they do drink too much, and they do not think twice about.

    Which means that White-on-White rape is extremely rare.

  10. Except that locking your door is really easy, clear cut, and done at no cost to your liberty.

    Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was thinking about getting so drunk you can’t look after yourself rather than dressing ‘provocatively’.

  11. The fault lies with the perpetrator. It also lies with anybody who aids and ebetts the perpetrator.

    So any actress who suffered sexual assault/rape at the pudgy hands of Harvey Weinstein and then chose to keep quiet about it for decades for the sake of her career has aided and abetted his subsequent sexual assaults on his subsequent victims.

  12. There seems to be an attempt being made to classify sexual advances from the undesired and regretted sexual encounters as near enough to rape.
    If a woman makes herself more attractive she will get more advances, including those from undesired sources. By the definition that means more “assaults” as the price of getting more desired approaches. Mature women have known this for ever.
    If a woman allows alcohol, or anything else, affect her judgement then there will be an increase in regretted encounters. Again mature Women have known this for ever.

  13. What a woman wears is a statement just as much as what she says or what she does.

    Unfortunately, dressing like a prostitute (which is the prostitute’s unspoken statement that she can be bought for sex – well, hired) sends a mixed message. Presumably, she wanted her sisters to know that she is attractive to men without actually sending the message to men.

    This is all very complicated.

  14. “Except that locking your door is really easy, clear cut, and done at no cost to your liberty.”

    How about walking through a dodgy part of town while smartly dressed? Or showing off your expensive watch/jewellery? Would having to not dress in a certain way (or avoid certain parts of town) be a cost to ones liberty? Would you consider the Rolex wearer at 3am on the wrong side of the tracks bears as least a degree of responsibility for his mugging?

    All this stuff just conflates two concepts – just deserts and practical responsibility. No one deserves to be raped, even if dressed like a hooker and drunk as a skunk. But doing so leaves you to some extent practically responsible due to your choice of actions. Just as the man who waves a wallet of £20s around in a dive bar is asking for trouble. No, he doesn’t deserve to be robbed, but the odds just went up considerably after his choice of behaviour.

    It really isn’t that hard to separate out the concepts, unless you’re trying to purposely muddy the waters.

  15. Next time two twerps write some load of pish in the Guardian, can we call them copathetic?

    I can’t help but think that ‘copacetic’ should mean a policeman of a vinegary disposition. Like Inspector Morse.

  16. dearieme – surely you know about the “original copasetics” (sic) – a society of tap dancers plus Billy Strayhorn that formed after the death of Bill “Bojangles” Robinson. I would also have thought you might possess a copy of Ethel Waters’s 1921 recording of “At the New Jump Steady Ball” in which copasetic occurs twice.

  17. “Perhaps I should have been more clear; I was thinking about getting so drunk you can’t look after yourself rather than dressing ‘provocatively’.”

    What about getting so drunk that when you get home you forget to lock your door?

  18. Ripped jeans, too, apparently…

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/01/egyptian-lawyer-says-it-is-national-duty-to-rape-women-who-wear-ripped-jeans-7046409/

    Of course, any woman not going around with a burkha on is just asking for it – that’s considered a totally reasonable view to take in all the more ‘conservative’ parts of the world.

    So by whose standards is society supposed to be judging what’s acceptable dress and what’s an invitation to rape? Do you perhaps think the answer is “mine, obviously”?

  19. Thinking about the discussion above- when I was a bit younger and lived in a rough prt of town, I was careful when walking home from a night out and circumspect in what I wore and carried in my person.

    I viewed this as being sensible.

    I didn’t feel my liberty was particularly being impinged, nor did I feel particularly oppressed.

  20. “Thinking about the discussion above- when I was a bit younger and lived in a rough prt of town, I was careful when walking home from a night out and circumspect in what I wore and carried in my person.”

    “Yeah, but we’re beating you up anyway. Because of your white male privilege.”

    Not careful enough, eh?

  21. Rape is (or should be) force & fems need protection & laws as there would certainly be more of it were men free to act without consequences. Pretty & obviously (by dress) shapely fems would be the disproportionately targets. Power may affect some rapes, but visual derived lust is a far bigger driver.

    Sexual harassment is another thing & US news of such goes too far blasting men going for the prize. Some fems, including a few (1st wave?) feminist say women can & have handled men’s advances forever & things have gone too far. One feminist said it is the “sex dance” (or something like that) saying it is the way of male & females of many species from Pigeons, lizards, squirrels, dolphins, humans, etc, where the males chase (& harass) the fems for a while until some males succeed. She said “No” does not always mean “no”, but can mean “maybe later,” “try a little harder,” or such so as not to be too easy.

    Male’s visual derived lust it a primary reason fems beautify. They’re going fishing & like all fishing catch trash fish along with the good. Mostly, they know how to handle it without the current whining. If Brad Pitt & I on separate occasions grabbed a woman’s butt, it is quite possible one would be called a sexual harasser & the other not for doing exactly the same thing. Often It ain’t the THING. It’s the GUY.

  22. NiV:
    Your link does not support your “Nope.” At most the link shows nobody knows.

    Fems do know that being attractive attracts male sexual attention, and that young & pretty attract more than the converse. A few years ago, Sweden’s study found young fems received more male sexual attention than they wanted & older ones received less than wanted.

    The “disproportionately” applied to what would happen in the absence of protection & laws protecting fems. You may observe that happening with the ISIS fighters who kidnap, sell, trade & keep the younger & prettier fems.

    So, “YEP!”

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