It is sensationally unfashionable to say so, but I am not sure that what is loosely called “the sovereignty of the people” is such a good thing. Since Rousseau hailed the “general will”, the history of those who have declared themselves its authentic voice has been, shall we say, patchy. The 20th century was an object lesson in the perils of populism and the autocracy and fascism it so easily leads towards.
“Out of touch”, the “political elite”, the dozy inhabitants of the “Westminster bubble”: MPs are called this and much worse. Indeed, some of them are now threatened with death and rape on a daily basis – and I hope those who encourage such threats, indirectly or otherwise, are proud of themselves.
Can you blame young, talented people who count themselves out of a political career? All the more credit, though, to those who do choose this life. Imperfect our parliamentary system may be, but it sure beats the populist babel that is the looming alternative.
Quite, quite, we can’t have the people just deciding for themselves now can we? We need that class of shining vanguards to lead them. Not anywhere, of course, in fact the direction doesn’t matter. But that those qualified to lead o so is very, yes vry, vry, important indeed.
The useful insight being that this really is how d’Ancona thinks. Thus his ability to, while wearing a pinstripe suit, write terrifyingly mainstream Wet Conservative columns for the Telegraph for years, then switch effortlessly into writing, while wearing shirt unbuttoned at the collar, terrifyingly mainstream Wet Labour columns for The Guardian.
It’s the leadership, the vanguard, of which he is a part, that matters, you see? The direction matters not one whit, only that the proles do as they are told.
I once read a novel by D’ancona, have to say it was complete pants.
I can barely remember what it was about.
However he is dangerous, because his floppy remainer bollocks is lapped up by snowflakes who doubtless think he is a literary titan.
It is sensationally unfashionable to say so
It is in fact fashionable to say so, though not yet sensationally so. If it wasn’t, he wouldn’t dare to say it.
Wanting to merely trade with other countries and not be ruled by them, to control your border, to decide you own laws – this is “autocracy and fascism”.
These people despise the very nature of a nation state and a national identity. The sooner they all fuck off to Europe and live there the better. They will not be missed, despite what they think of their own abilities.
“MPs are called this and much worse. Indeed, some of them are now threatened with death and rape on a daily basis ”
The death threats seem entirely justified, but rape? More a case of wishful thinking, I suspect.
I think that the late Douglas Adams had it about right when he stated that “the mere fact of wanting to be a politician should be grounds for being banned for life from ever being one”
I am not at all sure I like a decision affecting foreign Policy international relations and the economy taken by the Sun Reading bigoted ill-educated old and cretinous on my behalf but if you want to fetishize some dim witted concept of democracy you would presumably agree with these assertions
Universal suffrage as demanded by the chartists should have been granted in the early 1800s
Foreign Policy decisions should as of now be taken by rolling referendum in the Athenian Manner on Face book- bomb Syria 6m– likes !
Hanging should be brought back
Taxes should be increased to the vertiginous levels that have always been popular
Scotland should be off – the SNP has majority- end of
The future of N Ireland should be decided by competitive breeding
Democracy has a fine record of excluding Nazis fascists Marxists and other murderous aberrations ( NOT)
When you are next in need of medical assistance instead having the “expert” opinion of a physician you will submit your disgusting bowl growth to a democratically decided treatment voted on a by a random selection of morons
Jesus is this really the level ..is it !?
@Newmania
Strong evidence suggests the average Sun reader is the intellectual superior of those with a preference for the Guardian, is more broadly educated, is more likely to be economically self supporting & a net taxpayer.
Right on Newmoronia; let us dispense with the tyranny of the proles and introduce government by the Great & Wise.
Under such enlightened rule, I am certain you would be swiftly graded F, humanely shot in the face and turned into dogfood.
No it doesn’t.
My problem with letting the people decide and locally as well as nationally is what I call “the railway question”. In around 1830 had the question of whether railways might be allowed been put to the popular vote we might never have had the railway age and remained a backward off shore entity of Europe.
Demetrius: what extraordinarily idiosyncratic reading of history can possibly have led you to believe, or at least claim, that around 1830 Britain – then well away, leading the world, in the great industrial revolution – was “backward”?
That Britain in 1830 was offshore from Europe, as it still is, I freely grant. Some people seem to think that makes Britain by definition inferior. I hope you are not so deceived.
Newmania,
“I am not at all sure I like a decision affecting foreign Policy international relations and the economy taken by the Sun Reading bigoted ill-educated old and cretinous on my behalf but if you want to fetishize some dim witted concept of democracy you would presumably agree with these assertions”
Formal education is one of the most overrated ways to judge a person’s intelligence. I’ve met lots of thick-as-shit graduates. I’ll take experience over it. And not experience as just being a member of a cossetted club like journalism has been for decades, where once you got your foot in the door your job was safe. Has d’Ancona ever worried about paying the bills? Has he ever built anything? Right now, are his articles strengthening the Scott Trust’s coffers, or, like most of the Guardian writers, draining them? If he drains them, will he get booted out, or will the editor (herself draining the coffers) keep him on?
I doubt he’s ever worked in a highly competitive free market business where you make/save money or GTFO. Most of those Sun readers have. They aren’t shielded from reality.
Populism. Not an easy thing to define, i mean, not easy and still hang on to the negative connotations.
We’ve had an entire generation of rule by the “experts”. The overthrow of Margaret Thatcher brought an end to the last period of British populism, and since then it’s been a cozy conspiracy between different factions of the establishment.
Remember, the Brexit referendum was an accident. Cameron didn’t expect to win a majority and have to actually hold the bloody thing, and even then the combined weight of the main parties, the BBC, the universities, big business, charities, celebs, etc. was supposed to secure a comfortable victory for the status quo.
@Newmania: its quite remarkable how no-one was questioning the electorate’s right to decide things when they were voting in the way you (and people like you) were largely in agreement with. Yet the moment they go off the plantation, they’re a bunch of ignorant bigots who should never be consulted on anything, and people like you should make all the decisions instead.
Weird that………one of the most illuminating aspects of Brexit has been to expose how many people (largely on the Left, but from all of the political parties too) are in fact democrats in name only – once they lose on a matter they care deeply about (or rather have a massive vested interest in the status quo) they show their real colours, which are authoritarian and fascistic in nature.
“swiftly graded F”
B ark
“Sun Reading bigoted ill-educated old and cretinous”
“Old”? Didn’t realise you were for Jezza, ’cause that’s any Conservative majority well and truly spunked.
Imagine that there had been a majority in the House of Commons for leaving the EU, but that the remainers insisted on the issue being to put to a referendum. To avoid a party split, the Government concedes, a referendum is held and remain wins narrowly. Would d’Ancona be denouncing populism? No, he would be hymning the wisdom of the people.
Politics is no longer a vocation, it’s a terrific living if you can get in on the inside.
The EU itself is the Politician’s Wet Dream made glorious reality. Endless money and perks, without the need to dirty ones hands with “trade” or other lower-class endeavors, and (most importantly) job security.
You just have to stick to the script, and be loyal. Behave in a MOR kind of way in the interests of some MOR party, and get a nice posish on the party list. Any decent chaps that somehow get kicked out by the pig-ignorant masses can be found employment somewhere else within the administration. With a good pay rise to soothe the humiliation.
Politicians voting against the EU are an aberration,
Weird that………one of the most illuminating aspects of Brexit has been to expose how many people (largely on the Left, but from all of the political parties too) are in fact democrats in name only
Natch. The elites have been living in a bubble for too long.
The first major political party to cotton on to the realignment, and adjust its posture to match the sentiment of the majority will win bigly.
At the moment Jeremy Corbyn looks most likely to achieve this, he’s practically running unopposed.
Politics: Show business for the ugly.
Brexit is not the only problem with democracy conceived of as an eight year old`s maths lesson.
Imagine ten people are washed up on an island 6 of which are old idle stupid and useless whilst four are active intelligent and energetic.
Lets say the four rush off and fish bringing back a feast of marine cuisine they generously offer agree to share with old idle and stupid –
Lets say they all agree to make decisions democratically as well
Lets say the old idle and stupid simply vote that they should scoff the lot and f–ck the people who did the fishing.( who we shall call the 48%)
Anyone see a problem here ?
Incidentally I keep reading how people who do not have any qualifications are actually ever so intelligent. Personally I doubt it ,but even if I were to accept the great talent of the ignorant they still don`t know anything.
Now if the question is something like “Is 6/7 Billion pa a large part of the annual state spend or an insignificant one ( it is the latter) a stupid man who knows how much the government spends every year is rather better placed to get the right answer.
Sadly we seem to have decided to take the advice of the people who don`t know anything . Its not something I would allow to happen to my car never mind my country
Your parable would work better, Newmania, if your 48% weren’t largely made up of those who sit on the beach watching the majority fish. Remind us again what part you play in the provision of abundance.?
@Newmania i am not too sure about the ‘active, intelligent and energetic’ who voted to remain, as opposed to the ‘old, idle, stupid & useless’? Judging by their public utterances, most remainers seem to be whiny statists with a fascistic urge to overturn democracy.
@bloke in spain Precisely!
Bloke on M4,
“Formal education is one of the most overrated ways to judge a person’s intelligence.”
I’ve got three (count’em!) degrees – a BEng (Hons), a MSc and a MA – and MENSA told me I was ever so cleverer and could be even clevererer if I sent them money. Yet when I work for the Navy, it’s in a building with no windows so nobody’s seen licking them, and the crayons and glue are strictly controlled…
Academic qualifications can be a way to test someone’s ability to take on, understand and apply information. Sometimes they’re evidence of someone’s willingness to exchange tuition fees for a pass certificate.
And the stereotype of the eccentric multi-PhD boffin from Farnborough or West Byfleet or Malvern, who can calculate polar orbital timings in his head but hasn’t yet noticed that he’s not only wearing odd socks but mismatched shoes, does have some basis in reality…
Brexit voters were hugely less likely to be working , older and less well qualified than remain. In fact it was really an alianceof the retired and the “left behind”
Pssst “left behind means work shy parasite
“Anyone see a problem here ?”
Well yes, but its the same problem that allows the 75% to vote for higher taxes on the 25% (or whatever is the proportion of net tax takers to net tax payers).
I don’t see you complaining about that little glitch in democracy, or indeed the ability of the majority to vote for laws to nationalise the assets of a minority.
Once you start on the ‘tyranny of the majority’ issue, its not just Brexit that falls under it. The only reason we accept the imposition of laws we disagree with is because we accept the democratic principle. Once you throw out that democratic principle for one thing (Brexit) then its gone for everything. Why should a minority accept laws and taxes they disagree with, if voted for by the majority (or not even a majority, most governments are voted in on less than 50% of the vote) when you don’t have to accept the decision of the majority on things you don’t like?
Damn those thick Sun readers for voting to bomb Libya, to join the ERM and the Euro, for mass unrestricted immigration of people completely alien to our culture, to close down power stations and erode any fuel security the country has…I could go on.
The Credentialed Classes haven’t exactly played a great hand for the past couple of decades, have they?
“Academic qualifications can be a way to test someone’s ability to take on, understand and apply information. Sometimes they’re evidence of someone’s willingness to exchange tuition fees for a pass certificate.”
The most intelligent people I’ve ever met have degrees. Often they’ve got a Master’s or a doctorate.
But most people with degrees I’ve met are no more intelligent than my mate who works on the ticket machines on the railway and repairs bikes in his spare time.
I’ve worked with lots of graduates, and they’re reasonably intelligent, but few of them really think for themselves. Their political ideas all come from the Guardian/BBC/mainstream politics playbook: climate change, feminism, more immigration, remain. I don’t even mind if someone comes to the conclusion that we should let in more immigrants. It’s that there’s no evidence of any working out to get to the opinion, and a complete disinterest in any evidence presented to counter it. For many graduates, it’s just a very expensive way to get membership to a club, and access to certain types of companies (and we could get into the massive problem of everyone hiring graduates just to cover their arse).
Once you start on the ‘tyranny of the majority’ issue, its not just Brexit that falls under it. The only reason we accept the imposition of laws we disagree with is because we accept the democratic principle
Balls! There is no one principle.
The UK had a functioning democracy a long time before it had full suffrage and its an unremarkable observation that as a consequence of fudge and delay as opposed to France say) that it functioned relatively successfully .
It is equally a commonplace that no democracy should ignore a significant minority ( one the arse Hannan repeated ad nauseum when it suited his vile agenda) .In any case the results of a democratic decision are a consequence of the system in which the voting takes place . Our non-proportional centralised unchecked executive is currently not ‘working’ which is another thing much more common than we tend to notice.
The reason we are headed out of the single market customs union and every other EU institution is not because people wanted that , most of them couldn`t spell it !!! It is because the Conservative Party now depends on a tiny membership of some 100,000 all of whom are old and idiotic and control selection .Is that democracy?
The British Conservative Party was unique in the West in that it established an wide network of campaigning groups able to compete in the age of the mass suffrage – this was also why it did not ally with far right groups , unlike its continental equivalents .Having lost its mass membership it has now adopted the Polices of UKIP and many of the attitudes of the BNP. No coincidence, it has betrayed Conservatism which , by the way m traces a long ancestry back to Athens when the stupidity of the rolling referendum was first noticed .
If you are a foul baby eating Nazi this will please you no end but for a reasonable moderate chap like me it is to be deplored
Brexit voters were hugely less likely to be working , older and less well qualified than remain
Calling absolute bollocks. Every Leave voter, to a man/woman I know is a small business owner or factory worker, or self-employed. Of the Remain voters I know, they are all, (with one exception ) employed by the state/local council. The exception is an business owner who lives on the Continent and was worried he’d lose his new home and get sent back to the UK.
Violet Elizabeth Newremoania, as ever, you are full of shit. If you are that bothered about Brexit then be a good chap and fuck off to the Continent. I’m willing to bet that a) you won’t; b) you aren’t prepared to put your money where your mouth is, c) are employed by the State/Local Council; and d) couldn’t be arsed to learn a foreign language.
As for your analogy, those stranded on the desert island won’t be able to catch any fish. EU regulations stipulate that those under a certain size must be thrown back, certain species are not allowed to be caught and the EU trawler fleet will have already fished out the waters, so they’ll all starve.
“It is equally a commonplace that no democracy should ignore a significant minority ( one the arse Hannan repeated ad nauseum when it suited his vile agenda) .”
Had the EUphiles not lied about what was going to be in Maastricht to the voters, had the EUphiles not lied to the voters about holding a referendum on the EU constitution, had the EUphiles not pushed for greater integration and greater immigration, had the EUphiles not smeared the opponents as racists and Little Englanders, I might care about what EUphiles thought.
And it’s a lesson: had the EUphiles respected the majority of the public, we would never have gotten here. It’s not like you suddenly lost. You had decades of UKIP growing as a political force, acting as a warning to you. Brown could have held a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. He’d probably have lost, at which point, that would have been adjusted. That might have been enough. You could have had Cameron doing something more than accepting the pathetic renegotiation.
You people did nothing more than try and steamroller the significant opposition at every moment. So, please, tell me why, now that we’re behind the steering wheel, you think you’re entitled to any mercy.
Now if the question is something like “Is 6/7 Billion pa a large part of the annual state spend or an insignificant one ( it is the latter)
It’s 6/7 Billion, so hold on a minute.
A statist lackey may well feel it’s insignificant regardless. Someone involved in business, on the other hand, will want to know what that nearly 1% of total spending is before expressing an opinion. For most mature businesses, that’s quite a proportion of the profit margin.
“but for a reasonable moderate chap like me it is to be deplored”
Nice trolling – we remember your (anything but moderate) EU Steve contributions..;)
And similar-ish to what Henry Crun said about the Remainers / Leavers I know, and certainly on average. Far more Remainers not thinking too much about it having been duped into believing it was the status quo.
HC
I seem to recall we were led to believe earlier that EU Steve was working for the EU in some form.
You know what they say, Jack – 6 billion here, 7 billion there and pretty soon you’re talking about serious money.
Brexit was never about £350 million a week (or whatever you think the ‘correct’ number should be), but rather our ability to govern ourselves democratically, which is decreasingly possible within the EU. There’s a case to be made (see Project Fear) that a real (i.e. ‘hard’) Brexit could reduce the annual rate of growth of the UK economy by a few tenths of a percent for a few years (there’s an opposite case to be made as well, as is usual in economic matters). A small price to pay, in my humble estimation.
It’s interesting (to those studying psychiatric problems) that there’s a substantial overlap between those who would deny the democratic will of the people for purely economic reasons and those who resist our selling arms abroad on the grounds that economic gain cannot compensate for ethics. But then cognitive dissonance is a natural condition for those on the left.
“Brexit voters were hugely less likely to be working , older and less well qualified than remain. In fact it was really an alianceof the retired and the “left behind””
All those old people, well 60+, got to vote first time round and being young, idealistic and taken in by the establishment voted to join. We slowly came to regret that decision as ever more powers were transferred to Brussels in the pursuit of ever closer union, despite being increasingly told we weren’t interested.
I won’t be around in another 40 years but I’ll bet a lot of the young remainers will see the error of their ways by then.
Sorry folks –been busy today. Wish I’d had time to log on earlier to smash that insolent, arrogant, jumped up Facepainting scum NewRemainiac while his evil shite was still freshly smeared.
You are true vermin pal. If Brexit voters are older its because they have likely worked a life time while London Bubbler trash like you have picked up the cream via in-house fixes beloved of corporate socialist parasites. Who–like you-fancy themselves as the boss class.
The arrogance truly needs to be beaten out of you. In some ways I hope for civil war and a chance to settle with the scum of the Earth such as you.
As for that SOS D’Anaconda–a snake indeed–he is another of the Vermin Club like you FacePaint . But one who fancies himself several cuts above run-of the mill MC/CM Bubbler shite as represented by your rotten carcass you treasonous sideshow.
He wouldn’t give some nobody like you the time of day despite the connection your treason gives you.
A Merry Christmas in SnobSob Hell NewRemainiac. There is far worse to com for you and all the diseased wannabe boss class dickwads you share your pram with.
Anyone see a problem here ?
Um…
ten people are washed up on an island 6 of which are old idle stupid and useless
Yes! I’ve got it: Newmania is stupid and useless, has a problem with using the correct relative pronoun and can’t punctuate.
“Indeed, some of them are now threatened with death and rape on a daily basis”
Is that a complaint? Because I was led to believe that MPs represent their constituents. So it makes sense for MPs to be threatened with death and rape on a daily basis in order to better relate to those they represent. 🙂
“The British Conservative Party was unique in the West in that it established an wide network of campaigning groups able to compete in the age of the mass suffrage – this was also why it did not ally with far right groups , unlike its continental equivalents .Having lost its mass membership it has now adopted the Polices of UKIP and many of the attitudes of the BNP. ”
Thats why its currently allowing hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year, because its like the BNP. Thats why it just lost a vote on the one aspect of the Brexit process because some of its MPs actually want to stay in the EU, and voted against the government, because they’re all UKippers really.
FFS, do grow up.
Russtovich–Exactly so.
Indeed they should also be threatened with being stabbed, sodomised at a swimming pool and having their heads cut off on a daily basis.
“It is equally a commonplace that no democracy should ignore a significant minority”
Does that run to the wealthy too then? Should there be a limit to the amount of tax any given taxpayer should be expected to contribute to the State’s coffers out of his income and wealth?
EU Steve
James Bartholomew saw you coming.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/what-explains-the-idiocy-of-the-liberal-elite-its-their-education/
In fact it repeats quite a few of the comments above in this thread..:)
(disable JS if it redirects you to a front page?)
— “Brexit voters were hugely less likely to be working , older and less well qualified than remain. ”
The vote was a choice between democracy or centralised, remote, unaccountable statist control.
What have prizes-for-everyone toilet-paper qualifications got to do with a choice as simple as that?
“Anyone see a problem here ?”
Yes. you’re a lying cunt.
Apparently the resident remoaner troll said
(he didn’t get past my twat filter, so I didn’t see it first hand…)
Lets see: I’m early 40s, so not old yet. Run my own high-tech business. Multiple degrees. Can speak 5 languages, to varying levels of fluency (at least one mainland European one well enough that I’ve been asked by a native which part of their country I’m from, as they couldn’t quite place my accent.)
I voted Leave, as did almost everyone I know.
It occurs to me that equating ‘got a degree’ and ‘has more capability to make rational decisions about matters of importance’ is a bit of a stretch, particularly since the expansion of the ‘university’ system.
In my cricket team there are two teachers,both have degrees. They are both completely intellectually barren. They have passed some exams, and thats it. They have no interest in expanding their horizons, or finding out new stuff. Yet two of my other team mates, both of whom left school at 16 and went straight to work are some of the most interesting people I know, able to converse on all manner of different subjects, always interested in new things.
The idea that the former are somehow superior beings to the latter, because they went to former Polytechnics and got bog standard degrees in something or other is arrogant nonsense of the highest order. If argued on another criteria such as race, gender or sexuality it would be denounced in the most morally righteous terms possible. Yet we now have so called ‘democrats’ effectively calling 50% of the population untermenschen.
I think anyone who even momentarily considered the ‘people are too stupid to know what they’re voting for’ argument should reflect on that, and the implications thereof.
@Jim
What you say about teachers chimes with my experience. I met one who neither knew who the man was after whom her school took its name nor cared why he deserved to be memorialised. Such a profound lack of curiosity is staggering.
I loathed his Telegraph articles. They were all: “Cameron is my hero and every policy is wonderful”.
I was pleased he left/sacked, then very surprised when I discovered he was now writing for The Groan.
Mr Ecks has the solution.
I like the cut of this Newmania chap’s jib.
He’s right of course that a large chunk of the Brexit crowd are economically valueless and/or fucking stupid. Take the Welsh, Cornish or agricultural subsidy hoovers as examples: they’ve suddenly realised that the largesse all depended on there being an EU . The economically successful places like London and Manchester voted Remain, because they can see that wealth generation is easier within the EU than without it.
I do hope the Brexit pensioners suffer the full force of the consequences of their vote before they head off to the eternal fires, but the Tories seem absolutely dedicated to buying off the scrounging cunts’ votes.
Poe’s law seems to apply to Fatty’s comment……..
Fatty – lol
Remania – it is equally a commonplace that no democracy should ignore a significant minority
Except, of course, if they’re the wrong type of minority. If Leave had lost the referendum we’d be told to get fucked.
Thankfully, the goodies won and your boys took one helluva beating.
The Fatfuck returns. Just in time for the 25th Dec Atheist Celebration of 150 million socialist murders and the Annual Venezuelan Animal Starvation award for 2017.
Shame your boy Corbog isn’t an EU fan like wot your are Fattwat. Of course he and his twin turd McNasty will say or do anything to support evil and jeer and decent folk. In this they are your role model.
Unfortunately for your blood pressure FatFool the only people who will suffer from Brexit are the jumped up would be boss class scum like you. It is understandable that your head is swelled as a result of living in the midst of socialism’s last hurrah but soon it –and you–will be in the dustbin of history.
So have a good time while you still can.
Not so, sweetcheeks. I’m largely out of sterling denominated assets and will stay so until the shit hits the fan. Then I’ll have to decide whether to harvest stuff on the cheap from idiot Brexiteers wondering where their sunlit uplands are, or just stay invested in more promising economies, but I promise you, there’ll be no economic suffering chez Fatty
but I promise you, there’ll be no economic suffering chez Fatty
Just like the other two Violet Elizabeths, you are just another thick fuckwit who thinks he knows better than everyone else. Just another bigmouth who thinks those who voted Brexit are dumb little Englanders yet is one of those boorish middle class English people who speak loudly at Spanish waiters, haven’t the intelligence nor good manners to learn a few foreign phrases for their holidays in Benidorm. Probably one of those Audi driving fuckwits who have their foglights on when it is a bit cloudy – in short a preening, self-centred cunt on whom I wouldn’t piss if they were on fire.
I’m pretty confident I know better than you, Henners. How could it be otherwise?!
I doubt I’d find myself anywhere near the likes of you, Henry, so you can stop worrying about needing to put the flames out. And my Spanish is pretty good!
Yeah Henry this is a Grade A fatcunt giving us the benefit of his wisdom here.
HE’S gonna be alright. It’s the fucking ReMainiac anthem..
Shame all those other 150 million beneficiaries of socialist goodness weren’t tho’ Fatboy.
And as for your future fuckwit–keep sucking socialism’s dick and you’ll end up thinner than a Venezuelan zoo animal.
It couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.