Hmm

GENDERED PAY GAP
Sir, Tim Worstall is wrong to claim that the pay gap is not gendered and is instead due to parenting (Thunderer, Jan 4). The gap begins the moment women start work. Young Women’s Trust research found that young women apprentices get eight per cent less than men. Across all subjects, male graduates out-earn women within five years of completing their degree.

Worstall also attributes the gap to men and women working in different jobs: men become pilots, women air stewards — another gendered issue. There are more male pilots because it is harder for women to break in to industries that are dominated by men because of stereotypes, discrimination and men’s networks.

If 2018 is to be the year of women’s equality, let’s start by recognising the inequalities women face.

Carole Easton
Chief executive, Young Women’s Trust

So, it is because men and women are doing different jobs then?

53 comments on “Hmm

  1. For the last couple of years the reports that I have read have stated that women below the age of 30 are paid more than men the same age.
    So does Ms Easton not read ONS reports or does she think wom,en start work at 30?

  2. men become pilots, women air stewards — another gendered issue

    Holy fuck. Does this dizzy cow think we’re living inside a 1960’s American sitcom?

    it is harder for women to break in to industries that are dominated by men because of stereotypes, discrimination and men’s networks

    Yes, if there’s one thing men definitely don’t want around them, it’s fanny.

  3. Typical vested interest cherry picking. Apprentices this. Graduates that. All the stats show as john77 rightly says that across the board women under 30 very slightly out earn men.

    Of course the CEO of the ‘Young Women’s Trust’ is never going to admit that fact, she’d be out of a job…….

  4. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots – “Does this dizzy cow think we’re living inside a 1960’s American sitcom?”

    Only late at night when her Rabbit comes out.

    “Yes, if there’s one thing men definitely don’t want around them, it’s fanny.”

    Especially airline pilots. I mean have you seen the airline hostesses these days? Much rather share a cockpit with a young nubile thing straight out of Southampton Poly or whatever they call it.

  5. The pay gap myth is deeply entrenched in much female – never mind, feminist – thinking. When a friend and I calmly confronted his engineer daughter with the evidence that the pay gap was a myth, her cognitive dissonance was painful to behold.

  6. Ah, the Nearly New Years Honours List

    Sir, Tim Worstall is wrong

    Lord, Richard Murphy is a pompous twat

  7. Most of the apprenticeships for women are in hairdressing, I believe. No doubt they should be paid what engineering apprentices get.

  8. William of Ockham – “Be honest, “Sir Tim Worstall” has a certain ring to it, eh?”

    In a sane world we would have a Lord Worstall of Brougham Hayes for services to annoying Polly.

  9. SMFS – have you seen the airline hostesses these days?

    They’re either fat, male, or look like a Peperami with makeup on.

    Theo – Women love the idea of being martyrs. The only reason the female orgasm exists is to give them another excuse to moan.

  10. > it is harder for women to break in to industries that are dominated by men

    Yeah, women are really struggling to break through in fields like medicine and law. What’s that, both fields are >50% female? Lies, all lies!

  11. Andrew M – if the composition of postgraduate solicitor training is anything to go by, law will be 80% female in the next few years.

    Not coincidentally, there’s no money in it anymore for the vast majority of law bods.

  12. “it is harder for women to break in to industries that are dominated by men”

    One wonders how the teaching profession came to be female dominated then, as it certainly wasn’t 40 or 50 years ago.

    There’s also the fact that plenty of careers are male dominated with very few female takers – deep sea fishing, garbage disposal, sewer maintenance, high voltage electrical transmission maintenance, logging, etc etc. All the dangerous and dirty jobs oddly enough……..

  13. So, if I’ve got one female on my plumbing apprenticeship course and nine males on my plumbing apprenticeship course, and they are all paid £5.50 an hour, and they all put in 30 hours a week, it’s somehow a problem that I’m spending £165pw on the female workforce and £1485 on the male workforce.

  14. @ Jim
    The answer is “The Burnham Committee”. The teachers who regarded teaching as a profession rather than a job tended to belong to the National Association of Schoolmasters or the Union of Women Teachers while those who lacked qualifications or regarded it as a job belonged to the NUT. The Burnham Committee which determined pay had a built-in majority for the NUT so it distorted the structure of pay in state schools to favour the young women treating teaching as a short-term job between leaving TeacherTraining College and starting a family. Result was that a male teacher could not support a wife and family on the lower real salary (i.e. his salary did not keep up with inflation) so men tended to drop out of or not join the teaching profession.

  15. John77: unlikely.

    Other countries had no Burnham, nor anything like it, and teaching went female in them at pretty much exactly the same rate.

    I would suggest child care is a much bigger factor. A teacher doesn’t have the issues of what to do with children in the holidays.

    My wife didn’t go into teaching, but did choose jobs at least in part for such reasons.

  16. 2018 is the Year Of Women’s Equality, is it? Right. They can pay their own fucking bar tabs.

    One thing I do like about latinas. (Amongst many things) They’re not interested in equality. They’re content & prefer to be different. (We’ll continue to pay their bar tabs, amongst many other things. Price we pay for latinas. Worth every cent)

  17. …it is harder for women to break in to industries that are dominated by men because of stereotypes, discrimination and men’s networks.

    The most recent (2015) Ofsted report on A-level subject take- up is available on-line here.

    Table 1 lists the various subjects and the number of girls and boys taking them. It’s fairly obvious that, for the most part, boys take the STEM subjects and girls the soft subjects such as sociology and psychology.

    This is self-selection, of course. Revealed preferences and all that. Yet we’re told that the later outcomes are the fault of the patriarchy. How, exactly? False conscienceness at school age, perhaps?

  18. @solid steve 2: “The only reason the female orgasm exists is to give them another excuse to moan”.

    Thanks for the reminder. Haven’t heard that one since my dear old man died.

  19. “Not coincidentally, there’s no money in it anymore for the vast majority of law bods”

    What, at an hourly rate of £200 and upwards? Do please explain why they are so hard up…

  20. @Jim,

    There’s data in the public domain to back up your point. Have a look at health and safety incidents and deaths in the workplace by industry and gender. The ONS helpfully collect all this for us.

    You may have to download the raw data into a spreadsheet and pivot table the fuck out of it to get the real insights as they might not be summarised in the webpages for you thought. Not sure why.

  21. @Dave Ward

    It’s all good and well having an hourly rate of £200+, but there’s two things here:

    – There aren’t as many who can demand that kind of hourly rate any more due to oversupply on the labour side, and
    – You’ve got to have enough hours of work you can bill.

    If you can charge that kind of hourly rate AND you have enough work that you can do as much as you want (and your clients are prepared to pay for it), then yes, you can be quids in.

    If any of those links in the chain is missing, you’re not minting it.

    Also, you need to bear in mind that in an intellectually challenging job and with a high hourly rate, there are only 8 billable hours in a day a) if you can cope, and b) if you’re working 12-16 hour days to get 8 of them billed. The alternative situation where 8 are possible without busting a gut is that you’ve got a low hourly rate and you’re counting more hours than you’re *really* spending, e.g. you’re billing a day’s work as 8 hrs @ £100/hr whereas someone else would bill the same day as the 4 hours he really spent @ £200/hr.

    I’m not a lawyer but I’m hourly billed, and I work on the basis of 3-4 billed hours per 8 presence hours. When I’m snowed under I’ll do 4.5-6, and I’m working longer hours at a higher intensity to achieve this.

  22. @Dave,

    It’s all good and well having an hourly rate of £200+, but there’s two things here:

    – There aren’t as many who can demand that kind of hourly rate any more due to oversupply on the labour side, and
    – You’ve got to have enough hours of work you can bill.

    If you can charge that kind of hourly rate AND you have enough work that you can do as much as you want (and your clients are prepared to pay for it), then yes, you can be quids in.

    If any of those links in the chain is missing, you’re not minting it.

    Also, you need to bear in mind that in an intellectually challenging job and with a high hourly rate, there are only 8 billable hours in a day a) if you can cope, and b) if you’re working 12-16 hour days to get 8 of them billed. The alternative situation where 8 are possible without busting a gut is that you’ve got a low hourly rate and you’re counting more hours than you’re *really* spending, e.g. you’re billing a day’s work as 8 hrs @ £100/hr whereas someone else would bill the same day as the 4 hours he really spent @ £200/hr.

    I’m not a lawyer but I’m hourly billed, and I work on the basis of 3-4 billed hours per 8 presence hours. When I’m snowed under I’ll do 4.5-6, and I’m working longer hours at a higher intensity to achieve this.

  23. abacab & dave

    And that’s not to take into account that the big money is available to a diminishing proportion of lawyers. If you make partner at a Magic Circle firm in the City or some of the provincial equivalents, or if you gain a good practice in Chancery, Patent , Admiralty or some such at the Bar, then you are quids in and no mistake.

    Unfortunately that is not the position of most lawyers in the UK. A life time of low margin conveyancing work for solicitors or scraping a living at the Legal Aided Criminal Bar is what can be looked forward to by the armies of female lawyers being churned out.

  24. @abacab if you’re doing each piece of work twice it’s no wonder you get 4 hours billable out of 8 😉

    Joking aside, within the legal sector the whole model of hourly billing is under threat and firms are being forced to offer alternative pricing models, influenced by the factors you mention. Progressive firms (not in the leftie sense of the word) are embracing it and using it to improve profitability and align the clients’ interests with the firms. It’s a difficult mind set to break for the majority of lawyers though.

  25. “Also, you need to bear in mind that in an intellectually challenging job and with a high hourly rate, there are only 8 billable hours in a day a) if you can cope, and b) if you’re working 12-16 hour days to get 8 of them billed. The alternative situation where 8 are possible without busting a gut is that you’ve got a low hourly rate and you’re counting more hours than you’re *really* spending, e.g. you’re billing a day’s work as 8 hrs @ £100/hr whereas someone else would bill the same day as the 4 hours he really spent @ £200/hr.”

    My solicitor can, and does, bill for more hours than there are in the day………(and his rate is £330/hr).

    Please show me the solicitor that doesn’t bill for every minute spent so much as saying Hello to his clients and I’d employ them……

  26. “Unfortunately that is not the position of most lawyers in the UK. A life time of low margin conveyancing work for solicitors or scraping a living at the Legal Aided Criminal Bar is what can be looked forward to by the armies of female lawyers being churned out.”

    So the best/most committed/luckiest get stellar wages while the rest have tongraft to scrape a living. Just like any other profession or line of work, then.

  27. @Jim,

    Do you really want to employ a solicitor who is that switched on or diligent enough to log every minute?

  28. @ Chester Draws
    I don’t know what happened in other countries – I was simply reporting what had happened in the UK.
    If you suspect that my memory is failing in my old age you are very welcome to research the history of teachers’ pay from 1950 up to 1990, by which time male state school teachers were an almost endangered minority.

  29. Don’t get me started on UK solicitors or US attorneys and the concept of “billing units” so that a 30 second task is billed a 1 five or six minute unit…. Or using senior partners at $900 p.h. to do donkey work that any junior could do at $150… Drives me up the wall.

    We don’t use it – it’s a complete scam. We bill the time genuinely spent.

    Part of this billing units BS comes from firms insisting that people bill a ridiculous and impossible proportion of their contractual presence time, which results in a) people working longer hours than contracted, and b) “cheating” by manipulating the billing units system.

  30. @ Jim
    I’ve recently had experience with two solicitors, one to update/revise our wills (the kids being somewhat over 18 and IHT rules having changed since we last wrote them) and one to extend the terms of my mother-in-law’s lease and those of the other flats. First solicitor charged £200/hour but he was very helpful and extremely competent; second was cheaper but somewhat less competent – I spent hours going through her draft lease correcting factual and legal errors (NB I am not a solicitor) and pointing out where her changes were utterly contrary to the interests of the leaseholders for whom she was supposed to be acting. [The guy in the middle flat insisted that we use her firm, recommended by a pal of his, because it was cheaper – I got given the draft to read ‘cos I read prospectuses]
    £330/hour is greedy but I rate competence worth paying for.

  31. @john77

    One of the long list of reasons why I left my first employer in CH was their atrocious billing practices. They billed out a guy who typed with one hand due to injury at CHF 400.- p.h. because “that’s what qualified staff go for”. Err, a) no they don’t, and b) he types at half the rate of anyone else for obvious reasons so you have to take that into account. Even the non-typing stuff he wasn’t exactly fast at. He took 10 billed hours to do a task that most would have done in 1-4, and all that time got billed.

    Appalling way to treat your clients, frankly.

  32. @ abacab
    Sympathise.
    Quarter of a century ago I worked as a Consultant helping “Trandition Economies” – we much preferred the “know-How” Fund for whom we billed days actually worked (or part-days calculated on a basis of n/8 if we worked less than 8 hours in a day on that project) to EU or World Bank contracts that paid for travelling time and for staying luxury hotels (on one World Bank contract I found that I was put in a 5star hotel whose weekly room rate was higher than annual GDP/head so when I got back tothe UK I ‘phoned my manager for that contract and asked if she could get me into a cheaper hotel that had internet access for the subsequent trips, which she did).

  33. Fred said:
    “bail out of phone calls at minute 5.5”

    Ah, but you’re not counting the time for him to pick up and put down the ‘phone; that’ll tip it over to 6.01, which is 12 minutes.

    Then he’s got to make a file note; another 6 minute segment.

    Then he’s got to log his time against your account; another 6 minute segment (if you’re lucky; if he’s having a slow day he’ll do that twice, once for the ‘phone call and then separately for the file note).

  34. ‘If 2018 is to be the year of women’s equality, let’s start by recognising the inequalities women face.’

    Give yourself equality. Or are you dependent on men?

  35. Just a tip of the iceberg of info:

    More boys take flying lessons than girls. I love flying & paid for my wife to take lessons shortly after I started. During a cross country solo, storms popped up & I had to replan flight in flight & spent the night in another city. That scared my wife who said she could not do that in flight & she quit her lessons.

    US male docs prefer private practice where they can earn more, while fem docs prefer working steady hrs for a steady paycheck & support single payer. UK’s NHS found as they hired more fem docs, the fems worked fewer hrs than the male docs so NHS had to hire more docs.

    For over 30yrs standardized math tests given across the globe showed for EVERY NATION, EVERY YEAR males outscored fems, though the fems in some nations outperformed males in other nations (can’t say which violating UK’s hate speech laws).

    Yrs ago US Asians complained they were valued only for the tech jobs & not higher paying mgt & sales jobs. So, they started their own companies. US Asians have higher avg incomes than US whites. Fems own or have influence over more capital than males & could start their own companies, including movie companies, but the feminists want “Big Brother, Gov” to force men to be nice & share.

    No need to mention other well-known differences, e.g. hrs worked, work interruptions, job deaths, etc.

    Nuff of their nonsense.

  36. Regarding hours worked & M vs F

    When I was undergrad I had a few summer jobs which sometimes required a double shift (16h) or shift & half (12h).

    When supervisors went around looking for volunteers, it was always guys who volunteered. After a while girls were not asked.

    Females were – like males – single childless undergrads. However, they were inflexible and/or didn’t want more work/money.

  37. Pcar,

    This has huge effects in software – junior men learn skills faster as they’re putting in more hours (plus they goof around with stuff, and women don’t).

  38. @ Anon
    When I started working as a Consultant in Eastern Europe, I shared a flat with a somewhat younger but more senior Consultant (he was a Cambridge Don before moving into the role) and he had a practice of “playing” with his computer every evening to learn what it could do and acquire skills. I didn’t and as I am not a woman (but as a late-40s I wasn’t a junior man either) I am partially, but only partially, supporting your argument.

  39. As an early teenager I used to spend most of my Saturdays in the central library research branch. Sometimes staff asked what I was doing there, with the implicit question of: surely you’re here because a teacher has set you some project to do. I did seem to get the impression that being curious for the sake of being curious was some sort of sin, that you should only do stuff because somebody in authority has sent you off to do it.

    It’s like the feeling I got in primary in school when I was told off for reading. For READING for god’s sake.

  40. I’ve just retired after about 43 years as a woman engineer (electrical/electronic ). It’s a great career for any young woman who approaches her work and her colleagues with an honest and straightforward readiness to work hard, make friends, and become part of the team. There is nothing more delightful than designing and building something new, and seeing it work. Doing that in a team, with all our individual strokes of brilliance merging is even better.
    But if this joint enterprise is going to work, it has to be a high trust community. Nothing poisons the atmosphere like the arrival of a mean-spirited offence-taker with a massive chip on their shoulder, patrolling the design lab in search of the next excuse to complain about somebody.
    Getting it right means you don’t have to persecute the senior management to get equal pay, recognition and promotion. Your boss, (a bloke, usually), sees to that.

  41. Well, the chair of the Wimmins Trust shows us that there is a way around the “pay gap”. Start a wankster organisation that needs no knowledge but can accommodate a bucketful of prejudice and pay yourself a ton of money.

  42. @ jgh
    My elder son was punished (I think a detention, but cannot be sure that I remember it correctly) for reading a *maths* text book under the desk in primary school …
    When I was 9 I was gently told off for reading a Latin textbook and answering a question (aimed at the rest of the class) based thereon when I was supposed to be reading a more elementary piece – teachers were better in my youth!

  43. “I’ve just retired after about 43 years as a woman engineer (electrical/electronic ).”

    Gawd, I hope you started as a woman (Monty?). We get some *unusual* people here.

  44. At uni I knew several strippers. Nice girls, they could earn in an evening what other students were earning for a 30 hour week.
    I have known a couple of escorts, one was a friend I grew up with.
    Put it this way, mid 90s she had done a year of escorting and paid cash for her house, a 3 bed semi. She did a few years of it then went on to uni and a job. In her early 20s she was on in excess of £100k a year. At that age few men manage even half that and most of her friends were on £10k a year or less.

    Are the women going to insist the male escorts should earn the same weekly income as the females? Are the women going to insist that male strippers should earn the same weekly income?

    The girls enjoyed their jobs, the escorts got to travel and have experiences their more inhibited contemporaries did not. The strippers got to earn decent money and have time to study.

  45. Has she considered that young female aprentices might be paid (a whole heaping) 8% less because a larger portion of them drop out of the workforce for several years than their male counterparts.

    Or that she’s failed to (again) account for different choices in apprenticeships with women seeking less lucrative (but potentially with long-term flexibility) positions?

    Or that she might be completely off base that the reason that there are so few women pilots in *2018* is sexism when it might be that women actually do not want to be pilots in large droves? That spending multiple years gaining qualifications in order to even get into the cockpit might not be considered a worthwhile trade-off for them? After all, a significant percentage of commercial pilots are coming out of the military and when you look at the male-to-female ratio in pilots of non-combat aircraft its still massively skewed towards male even though the military of the UK (like that of the US) bends over backwards to accommodate any woman halfway capable just so they can point to that percentage in the annual report?

    Or that the large numbers of male military pilots (due to restrictions on female combat pilots) means that there’s simply a glut of qualified men fighting for a limited number of slots – so women, looking at the situation rationally, decide that its not worth forking over for the cost of training when fierce competition is driving the compensation of pilots down?

  46. Martin: the people who are complaining aren’t demanding that they earn the same, they’re demanding that they’re paid the same.

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