An interesting little thought

At which point a bit of history. Fourth century AD and the Goths turned up on the Danube border of the Roman Empire. The usual reason given being that they were being driven west by the expansion of the Huns further east. Lots of argy bargy about whether they should be let in and so on. They and similar confreres (Visigoths, Ostrogoths etc) went on to sack Rome, conquer Spain and Carthage and so on, all that mess of the late empire.

The point being the number of them. At this distance numbers get shouted about but the Goths might have been about 100,000 people. That’s kids an’ all. Roman Empire population was perhaps 50 million.

Which is interesting, isn’t it? Because 2015 saw some 1 million refugees – that’s asylum and economic together – coming into an EU of 500 million or so. 0.2% of population both times.

No, this is not to say that they’re going to sack Rome – not that anyone would notice these days – but it is to say that this is a point of such size that we cannot just ignore it. Something must be done – so, what?

49 comments on “An interesting little thought

  1. I saw lots of them at Vienna Westbahnhof: young men, clean with luggage and mobile phones all trying to get to Germany.

    My first thought was “Why aren’t you fighting in the war, you cowards ?”

    I guess the symbolism of white feathers would have been lost on them.

  2. Recruit Tony Abbott as EU migration minister, he’ll stop the boats.

    One key is off shore processing. Basically, pay one or more stable(ish) third world nations to host the migrants and process them there. Declare that nobody trying to get to the EU by boat will be settled in the EU.

  3. Are you trying to say there’s a possibility of the Tiber foaming with blood? Cos that has been said before.

  4. That’s the problem with the heads-on-coins version of history, so popular with historians. In actuality, most places had much the same people living in them throughout much of history. Not hard to work out why. They’re the ones developed the agricultural toolkit enabled people to live there in the first place. Unless you get some sort of mass genocide, what generally changes is those heads-on-coins. Or to be more exact, the bunch of thugs with big swords overthrow the previous bunch of thugs with big swords to extract largess from the peasants. But thugs with big swords may be good at waving swords about but they’re not much good at developing agricultural toolkits. Not in the jobspec. So, whoever’s head gets struck on the coins, the people actually get things done where ever it is, are the same people were getting things done before the previous bunch of thugs got their heads struck off.
    So really, it depends on whether the new arrivals are thuggish enough to get their heads struck on coins. Generally not hard, in historical times because the people who got things done didn’t produce sufficient surplus to keep their own bunch of thugs. Or if they did, the thuggish bunch stopped taking orders & started giving them. Which is where we’ve been in recent history. And the current bunch, behind the democratic façade, are a particularly thuggish bunch well supplied with hefty swords. They will not go down without a fight.

  5. Re above:
    Looked at this way, the much vaunted Arabic civilisation the camel jockies like to crow about is a load of camel crap. There was no flowering of Arabic culture in the deserts of Arabia. There was a bunch of tugs with big curved swords rode out into the world waving them. The world they rode out into was the world of what remained of the Roman Empire. The people who got things done while the Roman thugs were running things. And who, by & large, continued to get things done under the new thugs.

  6. bis, I think the Romans’ success came from not messing with the locals too much, letting them continue with their lives pretty much undisturbed.

    Of course, if the conquered didn’t accept it, the Romans were okay with killing them all.

    See: Iceni.

  7. ‘Something must be done – so, what?’

    Western Civilization will end because the people won’t defend it. Cos reasons.

    The U.S. banned immigration in 1924, citing the need to assimilate those already in the country. Was the law of the land until 1965.

    The West needs to tell the CM SJWs to STFU. To say Western Civilization is good and they are going to defend it. [Don’t hold your breath.]

  8. “most places had much the same people living in them throughout much of history”: not the British Isles though. The Neolithic people were almost entirely replaced by Bronze Age people originating in the Steppes. And that’s true of nearly all Northern Europe.

    And in parts of the East of England Romano-Britons were largely replaced by Germans.

  9. Things did not carry on much the same after the Arab invasions! TheMuslim belief is that they are overlords by right to be fed by the efforts of the indigenes without making any attempt to understand why the invaded (kufaar so inferior by definition) societies were productive.
    The invasion of North Africa and destruction of agriculture dumped a layer of topsoil in the Mediterranean which has not returned.
    The irrigation canals of Mesopotamia were not maintained leading to desertification.
    The annual jihad against the Christian kingdom of Asturias reduced central Spain to desert…

  10. Perhaps if you looked at why the Romans accepted so many travelling barbarians into the empire.
    Wars against barbarians are very expensive. Constant war for decades is seen as a major waste by some people.

  11. “The Neolithic people were almost entirely replaced by Bronze Age people originating in the Steppes.”
    Think on that for a moment, dearieme. A largely nomadic herding people from the great grass plains of Asia travelled to a heavily forested island off the coast of Europe & did what? How’d they get there? Swam the horses? How’d they find them again after they’ve scampered across the beach & disappeared into a few million square miles of mixed deciduous? Which branch of Homebase did they go to for their shovels & hoes? Although they’d need to buying axes first.
    People migrations as opposed to military conquests are slow motion things spread over generations. The steppes peoples you say displaced the British neolithic populations had been residents of France or Holland. And before that Germans & before that Poles & Russians. It’s an incremental creep. Interbreeding with the original inhabitants & assimilation. Acquiring the tookit needed to draw sustenance from the foreign soils. If you know anything about farming you’d know just moving a couple hundred miles can mean different crops using different methods. And this is subsistence farming. The margin between getting it right & eating & getting it wrong & starving is very slim. Worth looking at the first colonies in North America to see what happens.

  12. “Worth looking at the first colonies in North America to see what happens.”

    Not exactly. Their problem was collectivism.

  13. @Gamecock
    Exactly. Wrong toolkit. The toolkit is the whole of society & the ultimate purpose of society is to get 3 squares on the table.
    It’s one reason so much of the middle-east & africa is dysfunctional. They’re tribal. Tribal isn’t optimal for farming. If you’re farming, it’s your next field neighbours you need to be getting on with. Not some extended tribal family, feuding with everyone isn’t them.

  14. the much vaunted Arabic civilisation the camel jockies like to crow about is a load of camel crap. There was no flowering of Arabic culture in the deserts of Arabia.

    The Islamic ‘Golden Age’ started in Baghdad in the 8th century from where it spread to Persia. It began to decline in the late 14th century. Though islamophiles tend to claim too much for it, the ‘Golden Age’ had some major achievements – in technology, science, mathematics, philosophy, medicine and the arts.

  15. ‘Something must be done – so, what?’

    Well, for starters…

    1. No more refugees or asylum seekers, unless they are of high value to the UK. We should pay other countries to take genuine refugees and asylum seekers. The UK is full.

    2. A strict, points-based immigration system that discriminates heavily against low-value, unskilled or low IQ immigrants (eg most sub-Saharans). Immediate repatriation for low-value economic migrants.

    3. A package of measures to wean business off low-skilled immigrants and encourage business to employ low-skilled Brits.

    4. A voluntary repatriation/re-emigration scheme to encourage those ethnics who are unhappy here to return/move to the third world shithole of their choice. Many blacks would prefer life in Jamaica and the Caribbean. Many Muslims would likewise prefer to move to an Islamic shithole.

    5. Repeal all race relations legislation and close all associated quangos.

  16. “Something must be done – so, what?”

    All living descendants of the Romans, Goths, Huns, Visigoths, etc. should be rounded up, put in detention camps, and any who can’t produce papers proving their right to residence and/or a positive net economic contribution to the nation should be deported back to Italy, Germany, etc.

  17. Oh, yes. And any foreign cultural innovations introduced by said Romans, Goths, etc. should be banned forthwith, so that the locals (i.e. all those of completely non-immigrant descent) can return to their traditional, pre-Roman British culture and methods.

  18. “It’s an incremental creep. Interbreeding with the original inhabitants & assimilation”

    Balls: the ancient DNA shows that there was surprisingly little interbreeding. That’s the thing: until recently people guessed what happened from modern DNA or from what, in their conceit, they thought ‘must’ have happened. Now there’s enough ancient DNA that some things can be ruled out. And one of the things ruled out is that Northern Europeans are in the main descended from the people who had farmed Northern Europe for many centuries before the arrival of a bunch of people from the Steppes.

    So, on the whole we are not descended from a bunch of Near Easterners but from a bunch of hooligans from what are now Ukraine and Russia.

  19. Theophrastus – so are we planning to leave the UN as well then? Refugees and asylum seekers are a problem for many countries, here we have people fleeing persecution in France, Germany etc.

    Problem with moving people on to other places is those other places have their own ideas of what sort of people they want, quotas for immigration, points for job skills etc. And they can refuse to allow us to dump our unwanted people.

  20. Points systems are common enough that there shouldn’t be an outcry of racism, though I’m sure there will be.
    We upset some friends of ours when we decided to move to Canada and within 18 months had job, visa and promise of fast track residency while they had been waiting for over 5 years, we are specialist nurse and a qualified accountant, they were taxi driver and shop checkout. Great people, hard working, godd values, good kids but the points system meant they were on a long waiting list that we could leapfrog

  21. Martin
    The U.N. Convention on Refugees dates from 1951, and it is no longer fit for purpose. If it can’t be re-negotiated, the UK could withdraw from it without leaving the U.N. – which is a globo-leftist organisation of little worth, anyway.

  22. When there is a conflict in the Middle East, thousands upon thousands of young men need to flee to Europe to be safe, the exception being Palestinian “refugees” who need to stay within a stone’s throw of Israel.

  23. @ NiV
    Sustainable farming that doesn’t need artificial fertiliser, hunting/gathering enough to feed yourself without damaging the population of animals/plants to below reproductive rate, building megaliths without power-assisted machinery, knowing how to survive an ice-age. Sorry! – no can do, there just aren’t enough people with the appropriate skills left.

  24. I’m not thoroughly on board with you, Theophrastus.

    1. No more refugees or asylum seekers, unless they are of high value to the UK.

    Agreed.

    “We should pay other countries to take genuine refugees and asylum seekers.”

    NO! The US and UK have no responsibility for them.

    2. Agreed.

    3. Positive ID and ban on employing illegals a better plan.

    4. Agreed.

    5. Agreed.

    What I care about in the U.S. is that people know and respect the Constitution, and love George Washington. I don’t really care about their past.

    I walk past Hispanic yard keepers speaking to each other in Spanish. Boils my blood. They should be packed up and tossed across a border. They aren’t here to be Americans, they are just opportunists seeking work. 90,000,000 Americans without a job, and the national government allows these people to be here. These national governments are failing at their prime directive.

    The Democrats want to erase the border. To which I ask, “Then what is the purpose of the government? If we don’t have a country, we don’t need a government.”

  25. @NiV

    Ah, the old “the UK has always had immigrants, look at the Romans, Vikings, Normans etc” argument.

    Two minor points.

    1 – They were invaders and slaughtered the locals.
    2 – The last of those was around 1,000 years ago.

    So I’m not seeing invasions that led to decades of unrest and bloodshed as arguments for the current wave of vibrant newcomers.

    As for cultural appropriation, yes the Romans brought stuff with them. I think you’ll find the current influx are interested in things the UK has, not in bringing improvements with them.

    Maybe your argument is that in a 1,000 years things will have settled down and Englandistan will be a united country and have forgotten how it got where it is?

  26. Whatever the reason for Rome’s fall it wasn’t the arrival of 100,000 people. They’d been adding far greater numbers for centuries.

  27. Theo–nothing like good enough.

    The domestic breeding program must be halted.

    1–Recognise RoP marriages as equal in UK law. Then charge multiple marriages with bigamy. They must divorce and pay alimony to 3 of the four wives –or whatever number –and those three plus their children must leave the UK. Or the whole family can go with a 20 grand bonus to never return. Also no multiple marriages allowed in. If you arrive here as a bigamist you go to jail. So don’t come here then.

    2-Only social security benefits–if due–for one man, one woman and two kids plus housing benefit enough to house that number. Extra (unmarried) women/kids in tow is their problem. That is now the situation for non RoP . But the benefits for our imported friends are –I believe–per woman so they can still get much more benefit than the native with only one woman in tow. That must cease.

    Finally the 100 year rule that no migrant to the UK regardless of origin and ethnicity –or their kids–gets citizenship for 100 years. Then the case is reviewed and if they have been good for the UK they can stay as full citizens with the vote. No voting at all prior to that. Full rights under the law but no vote. Retroactive to 1997. Thus London ceases to be a ZaNu lake and the millions imported to vote for ZaNu cease to be an asset to the left.

  28. “Ah, the old “the UK has always had immigrants, look at the Romans, Vikings, Normans etc” argument.”

    Actually, the argument I was thinking of was: Don’t give society/the government any power you wouldn’t be willing to see deployed against yourself. Whenever proposing any policy of social control, always, always, always consider what happens when your ideological enemies get control of it and use it on you.

    There are people who would argue that Australia should be given back to the aborigines, or the the United States should be given back to the Amerindindians. It’s not completely implausible. But whether they ever do or not, it’s still a good way to judge whether a policy is ethically right. Kant’s Categorical Imperative says: “Act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law.”

    Plus, I was proposing that the real criterion should not be nationality or ancestry, which is arbitrary and irrelevant (for the above reasons and more), but economic worth. The major problem with immigration is that it is incompatible with a resdistributive welfare state. So if we deport all the spongers – of whatever nationality – the problem is solved.

    Where an idea or a person or anything else comes from is irrelevant. ‘Nations’ are just lines on a map someone’s drawn. All that matters is how desireable a thing is right here, right now. The British don’t care that pizza or curry are foreign ideas – they taste good so we adopt them. We freely adopt foreign words, foreign ideas, foreign technology, and – I would suggest – foreign people. They’re all just words, ideas, technologies, and people – judged on their own individual merits. ‘Free trade’ means no artificial barriers to trade of any sort.

    But sadly, virtually nobody believes in free trade when it comes to protecting their own trades from competition.

    “1 – They were invaders and slaughtered the locals.
    2 – The last of those was around 1,000 years ago.”

    1. Yes. Exactly. So your occupution of these lands is illegitimate!

    2. So?

  29. Go convert some Jihadis NiV. Report results by telegraph.

    Or have your next of kin do it. Shouldn’t be a long message even for a telegraph.

  30. “Go convert some Jihadis NiV. Report results by telegraph.”

    They reckon there are 2.6m Muslims in the UK, and the jihadis have killed around 100 people in the UK since 2001, an average of about 6 per year. Either they’re *very inefficient* jihadis, or about 99.99% have already been converted.

    Conservatives are cultural protectionists – jihadis are just conservatives for a different culture.

  31. “NiV

    They reckon there are 2.6m Muslims in the UK”

    Yep, and in 1925 the number was estimated as around 10,000 and in the 1961 census there were around 50,000.

    “the jihadis have killed around 100 people in the UK since 2001”

    If the number were 100 times that the Jihadis still wouldn’t be happy, would they? You dismiss the threat because our security forces are foiling more plots than are succeeding? How many deaths would it take for you to accept there’s a problem?

    6 people died in the first Islamist attack on the World Trade Centre. Just 6. So you’d have been saying there wasn’t much of a threat after that?

    The left-wing apologists hand book you’re reading from on immigration and Islamist terrorism suffers from starting with the PC answers and then ignoring all the inconvenient facts that show what bollocks the apologies are.

  32. “If the number were 100 times that the Jihadis still wouldn’t be happy, would they?”

    The point is that the number isn’t 100 times that. Virtually none of them are jihadis.

    “You dismiss the threat because our security forces are foiling more plots than are succeeding?”

    The security services are not foiling 2.6 million plots. I dismiss the threat because there is no threat. It’s on the same sort of level as the threat from bee stings, and more than fifteen times less than the risk of death from falling out of bed, and eight times less than that of falling over in the snow.

    “How many deaths would it take for you to accept there’s a problem?”

    Well, we can compare it to other threats that we choose not consider a problem. There are about 2000 deaths a year from traffic accidents, but we don’t ban cars and lorries from our nation, so presumably 2000 deaths/year is not considered ‘a problem’. That is, after all, 0.3% of the roughly 600,000 deaths that occur in the UK every year.

    Society can, of course, choose its own number at which it considers threats a problem. The only thing I insist on is that if this is to be a rational decision then you have to pick a definite number, and only worry about threats above that level. Going all ‘panic stations!!!’ about a 1-in-100,000 while blithely ignoring a 1-in-300 risk is either stupid, or somebody playing dirty politics knowing full well that the voters are stupid.

    The so-called “terrorist threat” is pure political theatre. It’s vanishingly rare, so it makes a big splash in the newspapers, and therefore it gets the public worked up. That suits the jihadis, because they get publicity and concessions for their cause, and it suits the government and the police, because it justifies all sorts of intrusive monitoring and data collection, and some fairly dangerous police powers, which they can then quietly use for all sorts of other purposes.

    “The left-wing apologists hand book you’re reading from on immigration and Islamist terrorism suffers from starting with the PC answers and then ignoring all the inconvenient facts that show what bollocks the apologies are.”

    I’m not reading from any apologists handbook, and I’m not left wing. You keep on thinking of this as a left-versus-right thing, but it’s on the other axis of the Nolan chart. ‘Islamic conservatives’ are called ‘conservative’ for a reason!

    And just because apologists for Islam talk a lot of bollocks about it doesn’t mean we should, too. There *are* genuine dangers from Islam, but jihadi terrorism isn’t one of them. In fact, it’s probably one of the stupidist, most counter-productive things they could possibly do. It justifies all sorts of suspicions of the Muslim population, and raises opposition to their immigration. If you’re trying to sneak into a country to take it over, it makes no sense to be letting off fire-crackers to alarm the watchdogs as you do so!

    The main problem with orthodox Islam is that it is unashamedly authoritarian. It has the attitude that it should be mandatory for the community to conform to traditional social norms, and we’re not doing enough to tell them that’s unacceptable in our society. Anyone who voluntarily chooses to be Muslim can observe whatever restrictions on their own behaviour they like, but you can’t impose that on others. Most British Muslims would agree – and as a result they are not Muslims at all in the orthodox sense. Given the freedom to choose, they’re gradually corrupting it into a more liberal, more secular version of Islam. (It’s like the way the Church of England is sometimes described as Christianity for atheists/agnostics.) That’s precisely what we want.

    Unfortunately, it’s not being presented as a conflict between liberal and authoritarian views, but has got mixed up with the fight of British authoritarians who agree with the beards that social norms have to be imposed, but just disagree about what those norms should be. And the result of that is that people fighting authoritarianism spend their time opposing the British authoritarians (who the public have heard of and know about) and in the process shield the Islamic authoritarians. The opposition to Islam has been taken over by skinhead thugs with swastika tattoos and nobody wants to support or be associated with people like that, so they defend Islam instead. British people don’t know the ins and outs of authoritarian orthodox Islam, but they *do* remember the Nazis!

    And of course the left, seeing yet another golden opportunity to paint the right as racist bigots, takes full advantage.

    If you make it a fight between liberals and authoritarians, and educate people about what orthodox Islam really says, well Britain is relatively liberal and I think could support that. Make it a fight between one bunch of conservative authoritarian nutters and another group of conservative authoritarian nutters, and most of them will switch off in disgust, fetch the popcorn, or support the side they’re unfamiliar with. That’s the danger.

  33. Yet another 3 million words of smeared horseshit from you NiV.

    “The point is that the number isn’t 100 times that. Virtually none of them are jihadis.”

    Because they are support staff for Jihadis. 29% it was who openly say in surveys that they would not rat out jihadis should they know of their activities. And that is the ones being honest.

    Very few Germans were all that keen on WW2 –but still it arrived. Because the leaders matter not the mass. Who will do as they are told.

    “You dismiss the threat because our security forces are foiling more plots than are succeeding?”

    “The security services are not foiling 2.6 million plots. I dismiss the threat because there is no threat. It’s on the same sort of level as the threat from bee stings, and more than fifteen times less than the risk of death from falling out of bed, and eight times less than that of falling over in the snow.”

    Absolute deceit on a level such to be described as evil. How many Germans killed any Jews NiV in WW2? A tiny number. Ergo in the dick-headed fantasy that is NiV-life the chances of Jews being killed in socialist Germany were trivial.

    “How many deaths would it take for you to accept there’s a problem?”

    “Well, we can compare it to other threats that we choose not consider a problem. There are about 2000 deaths a year from traffic accidents, but we don’t ban cars and lorries from our nation, so presumably 2000 deaths/year is not considered ‘a problem’. That is, after all, 0.3% of the roughly 600,000 deaths that occur in the UK every year.”

    Being murdered is not a fucking accident you sack of lying scum. The fact that –at the beginning of the takeover–the odds of dying the RoP way are low says fuck all about what the end state will be. Thanks to SJW trash like you.

    “Society can, of course, choose its own number at which it considers threats a problem.”

    Not with deceivers like you on the job it can’t.

    ” The only thing I insist on is that if this is to be a rational decision then you have to pick a definite number, and only worry about threats above that level.”

    You don’t get to insist on shit old son. Most people can see a gathering trend and even you are not stupid enough to miss that trend. You choose to try and explain away the result you actually want to bring about.

    ” Going all ‘panic stations!!!’ about a 1-in-100,000 while blithely ignoring a 1-in-300 risk is either stupid, or somebody playing dirty politics knowing full well that the voters are stupid.”

    Car accidents are not a malicious force with a centuries long history of fucking up and taking over other peoples countries.

    “The so-called “terrorist threat” is pure political theatre. It’s vanishingly rare, so it makes a big splash in the newspapers, and therefore it gets the public worked up. ”

    So piss on dead or raped British girls –small price to pay for NiV’s multi-culti paradise.

    “That suits the jihadis, because they get publicity and concessions for their cause, and it suits the government and the police, because it justifies all sorts of intrusive monitoring and data collection, and some fairly dangerous police powers, which they can then quietly use for all sorts of other purposes.”

    None of which are needed to beat our imported pals. Not importing them is the best way. And not subsidising their breeding with benefits also. But to ignore those murdered as of no account–and don’t come it that is fucking exactly what you are doing Niv–marks you as multi-culti SJW scum.

    “The left-wing apologists hand book you’re reading from on immigration and Islamist terrorism suffers from starting with the PC answers and then ignoring all the inconvenient facts that show what bollocks the apologies are.”

    “I’m not reading from any apologists handbook, and I’m not left wing. You keep on thinking of this as a left-versus-right thing, but it’s on the other axis of the Nolan chart. ‘Islamic conservatives’ are called ‘conservative’ for a reason!”

    Whatever label you tie around your dick NiV you are a useful idiot and a stooge of leftist evil.

    “And just because apologists for Islam talk a lot of bollocks about it doesn’t mean we should, too.”

    It is beyond your power not too talk a lot of bollocks.

    “There *are* genuine dangers from Islam, but jihadi terrorism isn’t one of them.”

    Not yet–tho’ it and their liking for crowd violence has already brought them many benefits in the face of a cowardly SJW left-scum state.

    “In fact, it’s probably one of the stupidist, most counter-productive things they could possibly do.”

    It is too early in the game. Their main weapons is still their dicks and the scum-states welfare handouts. But the crew aren’t overly bright and the hand has been tipped early . Despite losers like you trying to smooth matters over.

    ” It justifies all sorts of suspicions of the Muslim population, and raises opposition to their immigration. If you’re trying to sneak into a country to take it over, it makes no sense to be letting off fire-crackers to alarm the watchdogs as you do so!”

    They are not all co-ordinated despite the efforts of leftist shite/Soros etc. That does not mean that the very real and growing danger does not exist–which is the bullshit fantasy you peddle NiV. It just means we have a warning obvious to anyone not a fool and/or a traitor.

    “The main problem with orthodox Islam is that it is unashamedly authoritarian. It has the attitude that it should be mandatory for the community to conform to traditional social norms, and we’re not doing enough to tell them that’s unacceptable in our society. Anyone who voluntarily chooses to be Muslim can observe whatever restrictions on their own behaviour they like, but you can’t impose that on others. ”

    We come at last to the great Jihadi converters damp squib of Jihadi conversion.

    “British” muslims give even less of a shite about your moronic opinions than I do. Nobody is listening to your bullshit about what the RoP should or should not be doing. Instead pernicious influence grows behind the scenes daily. From “no bacon” Subways to halal shite in every supermarket and the increasing takeover of the British meat industry by that cult.

    “Most British Muslims would agree – and as a result they are not Muslims at all in the orthodox sense.”

    Once again the Great NiV has his finger on the pulse where so many fools fail to tread.

    You have no fucking idea who is what. And which side those “non-muzz” muzzers will be on when push comes to shove. I’ll take the bet they won’t be draped in your fuckwit rainbow flag chump.

    ” Given the freedom to choose, they’re gradually corrupting it into a more liberal, more secular version of Islam. (It’s like the way the Church of England is sometimes described as Christianity for atheists/agnostics.) That’s precisely what we want.”

    The young are more fanatical than the old. The killers and rapists strangely aren’t the elderly who–by your cockrot powers of calculation –should be the fanatics but the middle-aged and young.

    Again I wait details of how many your persuasive powers have converted to the Rainbow cause. Well-a rhetorical question cos we already know that the figure is none.

    “Unfortunately, it’s not being presented as a conflict between liberal and authoritarian views, but has got mixed up with the fight of British authoritarians who agree with the beards that social norms have to be imposed, but just disagree about what those norms should be.”

    Not blowing folk up or raping young girls is a “social norm” most agree with so just fuck off.

    “And the result of that is that people fighting authoritarianism spend their time opposing the British authoritarians (who the public have heard of and know about) and in the process shield the Islamic authoritarians.”

    SJW scum like you–and don’t bother with the denial: whatever label you tie on your dick you are the left’s creature and stooge–are doing the shielding matey. It is the permission to kick off and act out largely free of consequences given by ZaNu/BluLabour that is the RoP’s shield.

    ” The opposition to Islam has been taken over by skinhead thugs with swastika tattoos”

    More wrongheaded arrogant egotism. I am NO sort of socialist –skin-headed or otherwise–and the fact that you think the ever-growing numbers against the RoP and its influence can all be dismissed as the BNP shows that you are standard SJW womiccumalobus trash after all despite your pretensions.

    ” and nobody wants to support or be associated with people like that, so they defend Islam instead.”

    Womi trash hate their own kind, their country and most of all themselves. In the latter case with very good reason.

    “British people don’t know the ins and outs of authoritarian orthodox Islam, but they *do* remember the Nazis!”

    They are learning–no thanks to liars and con-artists like you.

    “And of course the left, seeing yet another golden opportunity to paint the right as racist bigots, takes full advantage.”

    The scum of the left and their voter importation program are behind and the direct cause of the present mess. So do not try to paint them as merely opportunistic. Yet more of your flawed “analysis”. The left know exactly the treason and wrecking they are about.

    “If you make it a fight between liberals and authoritarians, and educate people about what orthodox Islam really says, well Britain is relatively liberal and I think could support that. Make it a fight between one bunch of conservative authoritarian nutters and another group of conservative authoritarian nutters, and most of them will switch off in disgust, fetch the popcorn, or support the side they’re unfamiliar with. That’s the danger.”

    Fantasy bullshit displaying a level of understanding that would embarrass a small and naïve child.

  34. Society tolerates 2,000 road deaths a year (while striving to reduce the figure) because there are clear and obvious benefits (including a much larger number of lives saved) from the existence of motor vehicles. It’s harder to see the clear and obvious benefits from introducing a large number of immigrants, many of whom do not share the values of the existing UK populace.

  35. “Society tolerates 2,000 road deaths a year (while striving to reduce the figure) because there are clear and obvious benefits (including a much larger number of lives saved) from the existence of motor vehicles.”

    Quite so. There are always pros and cons to any policy – both of which have to be considered when making a rational decision. It’s a dishonest politician who tries to get people to base the decision on only one side of the balance sheet.

    “It’s harder to see the clear and obvious benefits from introducing a large number of immigrants, many of whom do not share the values of the existing UK populace.”

    It’s true that it’s harder to see. The benefits are there, nevertheless.

    For the economic impact of immigration, I refer you to the economist Julian Simon; the guy who inspired Bjorn Lomborg to take up the fight against the environmentalists.

    Regarding the culture war, the primary long-term benefit is that we are in the process of converting the Muslims to a more secular, more tolerant, less authoritarian version of Islam. British Muslims are very different, culturally, from Middle Eastern Muslims, who in turn are very different from their ancestors of only a century ago. The change is dramatic enough that when British Muslims go on holiday to the Middle East, they often get into trouble with the authorities for violating the religious proprieties of the more traditional forms. Sharia law actually forbids Muslims to live in non-Muslim countries for precisely this reason – that it will lead to the corruption of their religion. It also forbids things like television and science. They break Sharia law on a multitude of other matters, too – often without even being aware of it. By strict orthodox standards, they’re not actually ‘Muslim’ any more.

    This is how we are fighting the war. We can’t kill them all (certainly not morally, at least, and probably not in practice). We can’t outbreed them. The only option is to convert them – to corrupt their beliefs, and change them to be more liberal, more tolerant, more Western. And all cultural change occurs through close social contact. Cultures change through close neighbours compromising so they can live together, work together, trade together. A lot of this happens when we visit Muslim countries – it’s for sure that the Saudis would not have recently allowed stuff like women driving cars if it wasn’t for Westerners over there constantly sniffing at their backwards behaviour. But we’re still culturally outnumbered, there. Even more happens when Muslims with a more liberal attitude, who don’t really fit in at home, emmigrate to the West. The cultural change is far more rapid. Their kids wear jeans and t-shirts, listen to Western music, watch Western TV, and pick up a lot of their attitudes from that. Our kids, conversely, are not going Muslim in significant numbers. Our culture is winning the war.

    This makes the Islamic traditionalists really angry, and is largely what Bin Laden was going on about. Their demand is for cultural isolation – that we should leave them alone, get out of their countries, and stop corrupting their traditions with our liberal ways. They see it as fighting for the survival of their traditional culture. (Something many of you might even sympathise with.)

    However, we have to spread our values faster than they can spread theirs, and this requires close cultural contact to increase the rate of transfer. It’s not instantaneous – it would be unrealistic to expect it to be. And you can’t teach liberalism and freedom by forcing cultural changes on them. You can only persuade; so that they pick our values freely because they are perceived to be clearly better. It’s going to take several generations to complete. However, you can see the dramatic difference we’ve made already by comparing them to ISIS or Boko Haram, who tried to reproduce the original orthodox Islam, complete with slavery and executions. Most of the other Middle East Muslim countries were quite prominent in helping us to stamp on them – they didn’t like it either. It proved to be extremely bad publicity for Islam.

    We will win. We are winning. But to persuade Muslim society that forced marriage and executing appostates is bad is as slow and difficult a process as persuading British society that jailing and torturing homosexuals is bad. It’s taken us just over 50 years to get from the death of Alan Turing to the Graham Norton show being mainstream family TV. It will take Muslim society as long.

  36. “The plane boss –the plane!”

    “For the economic impact of immigration, I refer you to the economist Julian Simon; the guy who inspired Bjorn Lomborg to take up the fight against the environmentalists.”

    Hard-working migrants is one thing. Subsahara idleness and those “faithful” who don’t even read their own language are of zero value. Average mid-east/sub-sah IQ 70-80 plus inbreeding. Not going to be the technos of tomorrow. The criminals, freeloaders and left-tyranny-in-exchange-for-handouts supporting voters of today and tomorrow –yes.

    “Regarding the culture war, the primary long-term benefit is that we are in the process of converting the Muslims to a more secular, more tolerant, less authoritarian version of Islam.”

    No. You are womi trash and you likely mix with the offspring of doctors , lawyers etc. The highest IQ and most western already. Their class are likely to be influenced by the same self-indulgence and womi shite in which you are steeped. That is a minority among a minority. If dick/cunt working and drink/drugs trumped all other values then there would be no Western society to begin with. The piss poor poison of leftist shite has weakened but not yet destroyed us. And I think it isn’t going to–despite the likes of you . It won’t destroy the RoP either.

    ” British Muslims are very different, culturally, from Middle Eastern Muslims, who in turn are very different from their ancestors of only a century ago. The change is dramatic enough that when British Muslims go on holiday to the Middle East, they often get into trouble with the authorities for violating the religious proprieties of the more traditional forms.”

    Young, mostly womi snot upset lots of people who look on their rainbow leftshite with the contempt it deservers. Still more supporters have gone over to fight for the cult than upset it.

    “Sharia law actually forbids Muslims to live in non-Muslim countries for precisely this reason – that it will lead to the corruption of their religion.”

    It don’t forbid them from taking other folks countries off them.

    ” It also forbids things like television and science. They break Sharia law on a multitude of other matters, too – often without even being aware of it. By strict orthodox standards, they’re not actually ‘Muslim’ any more.”

    So the label is applied to a slightly modified bill of goods. It is still an unwanted, unwelcome and unneeded bill of goods.

    “This is how we are fighting the war. We can’t kill them all (certainly not morally, at least, and probably not in practice). We can’t outbreed them.”

    We can stop importing and stop paying for their breeding program. And ensure one wife only. You are just a cowardly bullshitter NiV.

    ” The only option is to convert them – to corrupt their beliefs, and change them to be more liberal, more tolerant, more Western. And all cultural change occurs through close social contact. Cultures change through close neighbours compromising so they can live together, work together, trade together”

    I am compromising on nothing. They–and you-already want free speech and most of our remaining freedoms. Stuff your compromise. We didn’t invite them here in the first place and we have already put up with enough nonsense without anymore cowardly surrender cant from offal like you NiV.

    . “A lot of this happens when we visit Muslim countries – it’s for sure that the Saudis would not have recently allowed stuff like women driving cars if it wasn’t for Westerners over there constantly sniffing at their backwards behaviour.”

    Cosmetic bullshit. Rich men’s wives for a few hours a day around the capital. The Saudi are in deep financial shite. That is it. There is no seachange. Just tactics to fool trash the like of you NiV.

    ” But we’re still culturally outnumbered, there. Even more happens when Muslims with a more liberal attitude, who don’t really fit in at home, emmigrate to the West. The cultural change is far more rapid. Their kids wear jeans and t-shirts, listen to Western music, watch Western TV, and pick up a lot of their attitudes from that. Our kids, conversely, are not going Muslim in significant numbers. Our culture is winning the war.”

    And what is a few thousand rapes and a few hundred murders along the way. Pull your head out of your arse SJW and mix outside your womi paradise./ The truth will soon punch you in the face/stab you.

    “This makes the Islamic traditionalists really angry, and is largely what Bin Laden was going on about. Their demand is for cultural isolation – that we should leave them alone, get out of their countries, and stop corrupting their traditions with our liberal ways. They see it as fighting for the survival of their traditional culture. (Something many of you might even sympathise with.)”

    For 14 centuries their doctrine tells them to take the unbelievers land and women. And there have always been fools like you.

    “However, we have to spread our values faster than they can spread theirs, and this requires close cultural contact to increase the rate of transfer.”

    This is the great Jihadi converter’s ( total so far=none) Jihadi conversion plan. By letting millions more in so they can be “corrupted” by new rich pickings of little girls and boys.

    ” It’s not instantaneous – it would be unrealistic to expect it to be. And you can’t teach liberalism and freedom by forcing cultural changes on them. You can only persuade; so that they pick our values freely because they are perceived to be clearly better. It’s going to take several generations to complete.”

    In the meantime they do what the fuck they like and tough shit on us if we aren’t nice enough to them.

    You are moronic scum NiV. Worse I don’t believe you could be as stupid as you crack on. I think you know well the evil you advocate.

    “However, you can see the dramatic difference we’ve made already by comparing them to ISIS or Boko Haram,”

    Boko wasn’t behind Manchester nor have they scored many rapes of young UK girls on their roster. Since you seek to be a facilitator of such capers maybe you should claim credit. It’s all on the way to harmony after all isn’t it?

    ” who tried to reproduce the original orthodox Islam, complete with slavery and executions. Most of the other Middle East Muslim countries were quite prominent in helping us to stamp on them – they didn’t like it either. It proved to be extremely bad publicity for Islam.”

    I bet they are all broken up about bad publicity among infidels.

    “We will win. We are winning. But to persuade Muslim society that forced marriage and executing appostates is bad is as slow and difficult a process as persuading British society that jailing and torturing homosexuals is bad.”

    No homos have been “tortured” in centuries dickhead. And we still live in a society that jails those not on line with the boss class. Ask Tommy Robinson.

    “It’s taken us just over 50 years to get from the death of Alan Turing to the Graham Norton show being mainstream family TV.”

    In your fucking family maybe.

    ” It will take Muslim society as long”

    Cos 1400 years is as nothing to the wisdom of the NiV the Great and Powerful.

  37. Julian Simon’s information is 30 or more years out of date. The nature of immigration has changed in the intervening years. Now the West is importing crime:

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/201711011058722257-sweden-rape-migrants-debate/

    The Danes have had enough, they want the integration to happen faster and if immigrants won’t assimilate voluntarily, they’ll be forced to:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

    It should be that simple, be willing to accept and respect the culture of the host nation or don’t come. Attempts to impose your culture on natives will not be tolerated, e.g. people will be free to mock and laugh at your pathetic cult just as they are free to do likewise to any other such beliefs.

  38. Mr Ecks: “Or have you lost your taste for 3 million word missives.”

    *apples WD40 to creaking mouse scroll wheel*

    God, if only..!

  39. “Refute the points numbnuts.”

    What points? It consists almost entirely of insults, with just a handful of scattered idiocies too obviously wrong to need refuting.

    “*apples WD40 to creaking mouse scroll wheel*”

    People complain if I do. People complain if I don’t. I’ve come to the conclusion that people will complain anyway – it’s not the length that they object to, but that they disagree with the content.

  40. What points?

    Try these.

    “1. Because they are support staff for Jihadis. 29% it was who openly say in surveys that they would not rat out jihadis should they know of their activities. And that is the ones being honest.
    Very few Germans were all that keen on WW2 –but still it arrived. Because the leaders matter not the mass. Who will do as they are told.

    2.. The fact that –at the beginning of the takeover–the odds of dying the RoP way are low says fuck all about what the end state will be.

    3. Most people can see a gathering trend and even you are not stupid enough to miss that trend. You choose to try and explain away the result you actually want to bring about.

    4.Car accidents are not a malicious force with a centuries long history of fucking up and taking over other peoples countries.

    5 None of which are needed to beat our imported pals. Not importing them is the best way. And not subsidising their breeding with benefits also. But to ignore those murdered as of no account–and don’t come it that is fucking exactly what you are doing Niv–marks you as multi-culti SJW scum.

    6 Not yet–tho’ it and their liking for crowd violence has already brought them many benefits in the face of a cowardly SJW left-scum state.

    7. They are not all co-ordinated despite the efforts of leftist shite/Soros etc. That does not mean that the very real and growing danger does not exist–which is the bullshit fantasy you peddle NiV.

    8 “British” muslims give even less of a shite about your moronic opinions than I do. Nobody is listening to your bullshit about what the RoP should or should not be doing. Instead pernicious influence grows behind the scenes daily. From “no bacon” Subways to halal shite in every supermarket and the increasing takeover of the British meat industry by that cult.

    9 And which side those “non-muzz” muzzers will be on when push comes to shove. I’ll take the bet they won’t be draped in your fuckwit rainbow flag chump.

    10. The young are more fanatical than the old. The killers and rapists strangely aren’t the elderly who–by your cockrot powers of calculation –should be the fanatics but the middle-aged and young.

    11– I am NO sort of socialist –skin-headed or otherwise–and the fact that you think the ever-growing numbers against the RoP and its influence can all be dismissed as the BNP shows that you are standard SJW womiccumalobus trash after all despite your pretensions.

    12. The scum of the left and their voter importation program are behind and the direct cause of the present mess. So do not try to paint them as merely opportunistic. Yet more of your flawed “analysis”. The left know exactly the treason and wrecking they are about.

    13. Hard-working migrants is one thing. Subsahara idleness and those “faithful” who don’t even read their own language are of zero value. Average mid-east/sub-sah IQ 70-80 plus inbreeding. Not going to be the technos of tomorrow. The criminals, freeloaders and left-tyranny-in-exchange-for-handouts supporting voters of today and tomorrow –yes.

    14-The piss poor poison of leftist shite has weakened but not yet destroyed us. And I think it isn’t going to–despite the likes of you . It won’t destroy the RoP either.”

    Enough to be going on with.

  41. [Rolls eyes]

    1. But there are no jihadis for them not to report on.

    2. Unsupported speculation.

    3. *Most* people don’t – which is why Islamophobia is socially disapproved.

    4. So?

    5. Unsupported assertion.

    6. Unsupported speculation.

    7. I specifically argued there was a danger. Strawman.

    8. Conspiracy theory.

    9. Unsupported speculation.

    10. No they’re not. The leaders are old, the footsoldiers are young.

    11. That’s the image you present.

    12. The British liberal values originating in the Enlightenment are the origin of the current policy. The left are just opportunists.

    13. I already covered this point – my proposal was to deport everyone of negative net economic value. Problem solved.

    14. Oh, yes it will.

    Happy?

  42. 1-Nonsense–so Manchester never happened? You have no idea what is happening or what the cleverer killers are planning once numbers grow. Helped by fools like you. Again NiV the Great pontificates where he has no knowledge.

    2-Support by 1400 years of history. Considerably more support than exists for your prognostications.

    3-Most people can see a trend despite the storm of lies from SJWs like you and more and more are doing so.

    4-So? WTF do you mean So? Your murdering mates are on the job and much more is to come as their numbers grow aided by the likes of dross like you. Ask the Lebanese about what happens as RoP numbers grow. Lebanon was a fairly Western culture but none of your rainbow flag bullshit worked out the way you claim it will here.

    5&6–You are just a liar. Stopping the import and subsidy of their breeding and stopping the one man/several women routine will cut their numbers. To claim otherwise is just a lie. And increasingly you are exposed for the liar and con artist that you are. And yes their violence has the CM monkey-suits scared. As in the debt collection reality tv show where two RoP crooks turned out 50 odd of their fucking relatives to get in the coppers faces. They were arrested in the end (4 hours–TR was in jail by then) but only cos it was all on camera. Otherwise the Plod would have turned their arses on it.

    7–Where did you make such a claim?

    8–Subway and halal crawlers is plenty of evidence. Bullshit theory is all you have Mr Evidence.

    9-A pretty wise assertion. Again no more “unsupported” than your cockrot fantasy.

    10–The young are supposed to be your rainbow troops SJW. Doing the killing on the orders of the old doesn’t sound like your multi-culti paradise hoving into view.

    11–Only to SJW trash like you who classes anyone who doesn’t want your poisoned SJW “visions” AS bnp. Again for all your “Libertarian” hot air you are just womi scum with the standard arrogant mindset of the middle class leftist turd.

    12–The fucking Enlightenment? I puzzle thro’ my copy of Gibbon to find his advocacy of importing the barbarous. Was Fox advocating the import of Musselmen back then? You are a buffoon. ZaNu –copying scum like Teddy–the Drowning Pool–Kennedy–is the source of voter importation plans. London is now a ZaNu lake because of such policy. And Londoners are reaping the stabby, lawless results. Lets hope that you do not escape the terrible consequences of your fatuous theories.

    13–You would be first on the boat. People who are less productive because of age or illness are not to be equated by imported wasters and criminals who never have and never will make ANY contribution to this nation.

    14–Oh no it won’t. And you Widow Wanky will live long enough to know what a fool you are. Or you would were you not an egotistical waste of sodium/potassium ions.

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