To put this argument crudely

The government has decided that asking the question “Would you like to put your todger up this bloke’s bum” is legal and shall remain so. To ask “Would you like to stop putting your todger up this bloke’s bum?” should be illegal and is to be banned.

Hmm.

The not too distant past saw homosexual men – that was indeed the description then – prosecuted for the manner in which they had sex with other consenting adults. An outrage. That English law never made quite the same point about lesbian sex is, anecdotally, because Queen Victoria refused to believe such a thing could happen. Nice anecdote but.

We’ve now moved on and the world is a better place for it. Except, well, it’s possible to have more than the tiniest concern about the latest manifestation of this modern liberality. For we’ve now the government girding its loins to make gay conversion therapy illegal. The system used to be that BadThink about sex was illegal, the future system is going to be that BadThink about sex is illegal. It’s a pity that we don’t seem to have had – or if we have it’s been a vanishing moment – of actual liberality about sex inbetween.

42 comments on “To put this argument crudely

  1. You, erm, seem to be missing the point about what “conversion therapy” is, in that it is something claiming to be medically effective which is not.

    It is being prohibited for the same reasons that we have a Cancer Act and that we require drugs to be licensed and work before they can be sold.

    It is unusual to ban “talking therapies” because they normally do little harm even if they don’t work – this is why Freudianism is still legal – but there is evidence that gay conversion therapy doesn’t work and does do harm.

  2. Richard Gadsden – “You, erm, seem to be missing the point about what “conversion therapy” is, in that it is something claiming to be medically effective which is not.”

    Nonsense. Conversion Therapy works in about 18% of cases. Which makes it about as effective as pretty much any other form of therapy – about the same as most talking cures, probably a lot better than AA although it is hard to tell. Vastly better than most treatment for narcotics.

    “It is unusual to ban “talking therapies” because they normally do little harm even if they don’t work – this is why Freudianism is still legal – but there is evidence that gay conversion therapy doesn’t work and does do harm.”

    What is the evidence of harm? Trying to stop someone running enormous health risks – and about half of all homosexuals still get HIV which makes it about as dangerous as smoking – is hardly a harm. The evidence of harm caused by talking cures is large and well documented in things like Freud’s own case files.

    Conversion therapy is a worthy moral and social goal. It doesn’t work well now but it has hardly been tried. It may work. Which is probably why the usual suspects want it banned. Not that there is much need as few people are Gay for life – most of them cease to be so in a few years.

  3. Richard Gadsden:

    ‘but there is evidence that gay conversion therapy doesn’t work and does do harm.’

    What is the nature of this evidence? I must admit when I saw this I was not surprised. The militant homosexual and transgender lobbies have been remarkably successful in making criticism of such lifestyles only permissible for one group but surely under freedom of speech rules the right to do things or say things that people , even Trans or homosexuals find offensive, is a bedrock of a free society. I think those that voted for the legalisation of homosexual acts back in the 60s would look askance at the massive industry that has grown up around increasing the number of sexual minorities and their specific rights and allocations of public money that has become one of the UK’s leading growth sectors. There is a growing sense things have gone too far and I think the pendulum will swing back at some point, possibly quite violently.

  4. So in, what, 20 short years, moved from “it’s OK to be gay” to “it’s not OK to not want to be gay, and it’s illegal to help anyone try”.

    This is progress?

  5. SMFS,

    “probably a lot better than AA although it is hard to tell”

    AA is useless hippy shit. About the only things that work are finding God, serious therapy and anti-depressants

  6. Abacab

    Yiou’re behind the times – it isn’t just LGBT its either LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual) or LGBTTQQFAGPBDSM (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, flexual, asexual, genderf**k, polyamorous, bondage/discipline, dominance/submission, sadism/masochism.)

    And I would challenge anyone at work to dare to question their prominence or right to self-expression. Certainly in my office to do so would likely result in your dismissal. it’s progress but towards what? however, it is as foreseen.

    ‘But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!’

    a perfect description of the type of person pushing these proposals through….

  7. Nobody is forced to undergo “conversion” therapy.

    People undergo it because they wish to be rid of unwanted urges.

    And this is to be made illegal. The scummy state is now insisting that people who want help CM trash don’t approve off can fuck off?

  8. What’s wrong or hopelessly old-fashioned about calling homosexual men homosexual men?

  9. Custard Cream

    Expect the Gay Darth Vader to appear choking your throat and saying ‘I find your homophobic heteronormativity disturbing’

  10. abacab – “This is progress?”

    The homosexual community is already arguing that it is homophobic to refuse to date other men. Which I suppose it is to be honest. What do you think the next twenty years will bring?

    I can see a time when a concerned father reports a Scout master for grooming his 13 year old son – and is arrested for it.

  11. @smfs

    I’d seen the trans activists insisting that You Will Such Her Lady Dick, hadn’t seen the homosexual community demanding that straight men date gay men.

    And I was wondering why all the consent stuff had suddenly gone quiet…

  12. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3258041.stm

    In the 1920s, mainstream medical researchers in Germany implanted testicles from corpses into the bodies of homosexual men, usually without their knowledge. The idea was to boost testosterone levels.

    “They were told they were going to have an operation, but not what was going to be done to them. These experiments were written up in the German equivalent of the BMJ or The Lancet, although they were later discredited after the Second World War.”

    In the 1950s and 1960s, behavioural therapy was used to try to “cure” gay men. Men convicted of homosexual acts were routinely given electric shock treatment, hallucinogenic drugs and subjected to brainwashing techniques.

    The most common form of treatment was aversion therapy, of the kind seen in Stanley Kubrick’s film A Clockwork Orange.

    Those who volunteered for such treatments – often in preference to jail terms – were shown pictures of naked men and given a series electric shocks or drugs to make them vomit.

    When they could stand it no longer, they were shown pictures of naked women, or films of nudist colonies, as a relief from the pain – or, in some cases, taken out on “dates” with young nurses.

    Mmm! Dates with young nurses! Sounds OK.

    “They then injected me with something that made me violently sick for about an hour and they left me there”, he says. The doctors refused to give him a basin and insisted he vomit over himself.

    “For 72 hours I lay in my own excrement and dirt, scared out of my wits,” he says. He begged to be let out of the hospital after the psychiatrist told him the next stage of the treatment involved attaching electrodes to his penis.

    What’s he complaining about?! Straight guys do that sort of thing for fun!

    Anyway – so long as we can also have “conversion therapy” of this sort being set up for people who are right-wing or homophobic and similar social aberrations, run by crazy-eyed SJWs, I don’t see any reason why it should be banned by law. This sort of thing is always about informed consent. So long as you’re told in advance a) exactly how you will be tortured and b) that it doesn’t work, ever, you should be allowed to sign up for it. Same as for services to bondage fans and sado-masochists. Or aromatherapy and homeopathy, for that matter. Whatever floats your boat.

  13. Still fulla shit NiV.

    Piss on the 1920s. Couldn’t you find any of your usual science fiction a bit more contemporary to bolster your SJW bollocks?

    And of course the great master of the evidence based just KNOWS that no one was ever helped to get rid of unwanted urges or thoughts. Not if such thoughts are in line with the kind of SJW shite NiV endorses.

  14. “b) that it doesn’t work, ever,”

    Citation needed.

    I notice that in the usual way, they’ve conflated all possible types of homosexual “treatment” in what they want to ban, while citing the most extreme examples.
    Having read the small print, they (for instance) also want to ban praying with someone for them to become straight.

    It strikes me that the world has gone properly mad when we will willingly chop the knackers off a bloke who says he wants to be a woman, but at the same time want to ban praying with a bloke who says he’s gay but wants to be straight…

  15. Prole–is there some sort of “consultation” caper under weigh?

    At least we can tell them where to stick their SJW bollocks.

    God Damn the Fish Faced Cow and her band of BluLabour trained seals.

  16. Trans complain that people are biased because they won’t date them, end of day their choice and there are consequences to those choices

  17. “Piss on the 1920s. Couldn’t you find any of your usual science fiction a bit more contemporary to bolster your SJW bollocks?”

    I point to stuff from the 1960s and you complain about the 1920s? Oh, well. I suppose I ought to be used to it by now…

    “Citation needed.”

    Citation already given.

    “Trans complain that people are biased because they won’t date them, end of day their choice and there are consequences to those choices”

    Weedy chess-playing maths geeks say much the same thing… Everyone is welcome to complain about stuff.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gy893x/conservatives-are-whining-because-no-one-wants-to-date-them-vgtrn

    🙂

  18. “Citation already given.”

    Where to? Your only link is to an old BBC propaganda piece, with a selection of sob stories, and a total lack of anything resembling hard stats – and despite all that, even then it doesn’t make a claim as strong as “it doesn’t work ever”. All they actually say is “it doesn’t work, sometimes” which is up there with “dog bites man”.

  19. @Mr Ecks

    “Prole–is there some sort of “consultation” caper under weigh?”

    I think there is at least one being threatened, but I can’t actually find any official details – however a lot of people from different perspectives (both for and against) all seem to be talking about a ban with a pretty wide ranging scope.

    https://faithroots.net/2018/07/03/whats-involved-in-banning-gay-conversion-therapy/

    http://openchurch.network/content/christian-leader-urges-government-ban-%E2%80%98pray-gay-away%E2%80%99-practices

  20. “and despite all that, even then it doesn’t make a claim as strong as “it doesn’t work ever””

    Dr Glenn Smith, of the Royal Free and University College Hospital, says that of the dozens of gay men he has tracked down in his research not one has become heterosexual after aversion treatment.

    and

    Michael Knight says the mainstream medical orthodoxy in the UK is, increasingly, that sexual orientation is hard-wired from birth. “Behaviour can be modified, but not the essential being,” he says.

    You think all that means is: “it doesn’t work, sometimes”?

    (There are, of course, people who say that prayer works, too. It never does, though.)

    However, it’s easy enough to check for yourself. The Wikipedia article on conversion therapy gives 234 references.

    However, this result should already be familiar and expected from our discussions on brain wiring and sex differentiation. Male and female brains have a range of anatomical differences that are mostly but not always linked to the person’s external sex. It’s logical that the brain module for sexual attraction should be hardwired (nature is not going to rely on culture/education to transmit something as important as that!), and as we already know, the development process sometimes goes wrong and there’s some cross-over, and some people get the wiring intended for the other sex.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2008/06/13/0801566105

    You obviously can’t rewire the brain or change its anatomy by persuasion, or wishing hard, any more than you can re-arrange other body parts, regrow legs or whatever, by thinking hard at them. But the religious mind is somewhat invested in the idea that you can – mind-over-matter and all that – so I don’t suppose I’m going to persuade anyone otherwise.

  21. NiV – “Dr Glenn Smith, of the Royal Free and University College Hospital, says that of the dozens of gay men he has tracked down in his research not one has become heterosexual after aversion treatment. ”

    So Gay activist does not find evidence to undermine his activism. Film at 11.

    “Michael Knight says the mainstream medical orthodoxy in the UK is, increasingly, that sexual orientation is hard-wired from birth.”

    Yes but it is an orthodoxy. A religious point of view. Not science. Because we cannot even be sure there is such a thing as homosexuality while we know that many – maybe even most – homosexuals stop being homosexual. Some heterosexuals stop being heterosexuals too as it happens.

    “(There are, of course, people who say that prayer works, too. It never does, though.)”

    There is ample evidence that prayer does work as it happens.

    “However, this result should already be familiar and expected from our discussions on brain wiring and sex differentiation.”

    Discussions? Discussion would imply you are listening. And you are not. Ranting is a better word. However I notice that this is enough to get you fired from Google. Which shows why we should not believe it – it is crass opportunism from your side. You believe sexual differences are hard wired when it suits you and you call it sexism when it doesn’t. This is not science. It is Lysenkoism.

    “Male and female brains have a range of anatomical differences that are mostly but not always linked to the person’s external sex.”

    There being no evidence of a male or a female brain.

    “You obviously can’t rewire the brain or change its anatomy by persuasion, or wishing hard, any more than you can re-arrange other body parts, regrow legs or whatever, by thinking hard at them.”

    You grow muscles by using them. I suspect you grow neurons by using them too. I suspect aversion therapy does create all sorts of new pathways in the brain which does actually really change the anatomy of the brain. After all, people are just a temporary collection of neurons and memories. The memories are very plastic. The neurons are too. There is probably no such thing as an individual. So no reason why what they like to think of as their personalities cannot be changed.

  22. theProle – “It strikes me that the world has gone properly mad when we will willingly chop the knackers off a bloke who says he wants to be a woman, but at the same time want to ban praying with a bloke who says he’s gay but wants to be straight…”

    To further the madness of the modern world perhaps it is time to take a leaf out of the Iranian government’s trans-sexual people policy? No seriously. They insist, with varying degrees of persuasion, that Gay people should become women. After all, it is a way of making what they see as illicit into something they can live with.

    I suggest we do likewise. Just to see the heads of the Left explode when they try to figure out who is more inter-sected.

  23. There are many types of therapy besides crass Skinner-style “aversion” shite.

    There is no one today being “forced” to undergo any such therapy. Those comfortable with the lifestyle will not be attending such therapy anyway.

    Which makes the brazen CM arrogance of the Fish Faced Cow all the more enraging. She is a cowardly slag who crawls to any more powerful than her but thinks she can do as she likes with those who she judges cant hit back.

    She needs to be the first British Prime Minister punished for her antics while in office. Financially ruined for certain, humiliated likewise.

  24. “There is ample evidence that prayer does work as it happens.”

    Aha! That explains much. Thank you.

  25. “so long as we can also have “conversion therapy” of this sort being set up for people who are right-wing or homophobic and similar social aberrations, run by crazy-eyed SJW”

    We already have this, its called ‘The State’.

  26. ” The not too distant past saw homosexual men – that was indeed the description then – prosecuted for the manner in which they had sex with other consenting adults.”

    I hate to go all Bill Clinton and pedantic, but homosexuals and lesbians don’t actually engage in sex.

  27. “Dr Glenn Smith, of the Royal Free and University College Hospital, says that of the dozens of gay men he has tracked down in his research not one has become heterosexual after aversion treatment.”

    I seem to recall that when I learnt formal logic, there are essentially 4 possible sorts of proposition one can make.
    1) All X are Y
    2)Some X are Y
    3)Some X are not Y
    4)No X are Y

    It’s logically some pairs of such propositions to be true (e.g, both “Some men are human” and “All men are humans”, or “Some humans are men”, and “Some humans are not men” can be true concurrently),

    One can also reason down – if ” No men are snails”, is true, then “Some men are not snails” is also true.

    What one can’t do (despite NIVs protestations), is reason the other way “Some men are not over 6′ tall” being proven does not allow one to prove “No men are over 6′ tall”.

    In this case, the proposition boils down to “some men (all couple of dozen from an unknown total quantity, but probably one which is several orders of magnitude larger), are not made straight by gay aversion therapy”. This most definitely does not logically allow one to prove “No men are made straight by gay aversion therapy”.

  28. “Nobody is forced to undergo “conversion” therapy.”

    Apart from all the kids (and adults) forced into it by their parents by various threats and coercions.

  29. “I seem to recall that when I learnt formal logic, there are essentially 4 possible sorts of proposition one can make.”

    That’ll be first-order predicate logic. You may also be interested in modal logic, doxastic logic, alethic logic, temporal logic, deontic logic, and epistemic logic.

    “What one can’t do (despite NIVs protestations), is reason the other way “Some men are not over 6′ tall” being proven does not allow one to prove “No men are over 6′ tall”.”

    True. Strictly speaking, the proper way of phrasing it is something like: “We have no valid evidence that there are men over 100 foot tall.” All we can say about it is that we’ve never observed any, despite having looked where we would expect to find them if the claims about giants are true, and that those people who have claimed to have observed them were strongly motivated by religious beliefs to say so, were in some cases tortured until they said so, and were observed in trials with no control groups, and no tests against deception or self-deception. (For example, in the case of conversion therapy, by using brain scans to distinguish homosexual from heterosexual arousal responses.)

    It’s the same sort of careful statement as saying that no valid and verifiable scientific evidence has been observed so far that the Waters at Lourdes, or whale music and healing crystals, can cure stage 4 cancer or multiple limb amputations better than a placebo. Speaking non-scientifically, we can simplify this to say “It doesn’t work”, and only a true and devoted believer in whale-music-crystal-healing would feel the need to argue about the simplification. It’s easy to test. It has been tested. It doesn’t work.

    And given what we know about brain anatomy nowadays, we wouldn’t expect it to work. The current evidence is that sexual orientation is hard-wired from birth, in major elements of brain anatomy that would be very hard to change in later life. To think that you could change your sexual orientation would be like thinking you could change how many arms and legs you had. The question is still scientifically open; we have a *lot* more still to learn about brain function and development – but then technically, we can’t be sure that rubbing on the special cream wouldn’t allow you to grow extra arms and legs, either. All we need to do is figure out what ingredients to put in the cream.

    Or maybe all it needs is the right sort of whale music.

  30. Matthew L–In an age when Trudeau is having kids confiscated if 6 year old declares they are transgender and parents don’t agre. Fuck off mate. The idea that there are legions being forced to undergo unwanted “help” is tripe.

    And there would be nothing wrong with the law preventing anybody being forced into any sort of therapy for any reason whatsoever.

    But that is not what the Fish Faced Cow proposes it seems.

    Those who dislike and do not want to be homosexual or have such a lifestyle but suffer from intermittent unwanted thoughts etc who very likely could be helped –they can just fuck off cos CM doesn’t like it.

    Don’t bother wasting electrons NiV with your eugenic theories about “genes is it”. Fortunately people still have choices outside your ego-based universe of omniscient knowledge.

  31. “The idea that there are legions being forced to undergo unwanted “help” is tripe.”

    Because if the Jim-Jones fire-and-brimstone parents tell their 13 year old kid he’s “chosen” to sell his sinful soul to Satan’s Limp-Wristed Demons of Arse Buggery and has got to go to re-education camp or he and all his family will Burn in Everlasting Sulfurous Hellfire Stoked By A Loving God and the kid says “I don’t want to”, the parents will of course say “Oh, OK, fair enough then. So when do we get to meet this ‘boyfriend’ of yours? Does he like scones with his tea?”

    Because fanatically religious parents are like that.

    “Don’t bother wasting electrons NiV with your eugenic theories about “genes is it”. Fortunately people still have choices outside your ego-based universe of omniscient knowledge.”

    Ah! Choices!

    Tell me, according to your hypothesis, why do children before puberty universally have no particular interest in sex, but during and after puberty, you can’t stop them going at one another with a fire hose? They all suddenly and coincidentally “choose” to obsess about sex? And porn? And wanking? All at the same age, and at the same time their other secondary sexual characteristics appear? This has nothing to do with hormones or genetics whatsoever?

    What a fascinating theory! Do tell me more!

  32. That flesh plays some part in human capers is not proof of your ego-scam NiV. Are we obliged to pursue whatever pleasure of physical desire that emerges/ is available or do we have choice? We have choice.

    Anyway SJW–never mind puberty. For do we not have a world of Rainbow Freakshows who think 6 year olds can already decide not merely sodomy but polymorphous perversity is the road for them.

    And for religion SJW what is your rainbow flag save the symbol of your unholy creed.

    And how many kids under your kind of scum are being pushed to a lifestyle they don’t want either. All the crimes you accuse others of are just as present in the womi-shite you are selling left-stooge.

  33. @NiV:“You think all that means is: “it doesn’t work, sometimes”?”

    Who cares what the guy who partnered KITT thinks?

  34. “Dr Glenn Smith, of the Royal Free and University College Hospital, says that of the dozens of gay men he has tracked down in his research …”

    Oh, ‘dozens’… Well, that’s all right then.

    And just how do you ‘track down’ a gay man? What sort of spoor do you look out for?

  35. “Are we obliged to pursue whatever pleasure of physical desire that emerges/ is available or do we have choice? We have choice.”

    You’re changing the question.

    The claim is that conversion therapy will turn homosexuals into heterosexuals – that it gets rid of the desires and urges. It doesn’t. They’re deluding themselves and others if they think it will.

    However, it would be perfectly possible to achieve abstinence by willpower alone. You still have the urges, but you don’t do anything about them. That’s just nuns and monks and stuff. The morality of forcing it on people, children especially, is much the same, but at least it’s not a biological impossibility.

    “And how many kids under your kind of scum are being pushed to a lifestyle they don’t want either.”

    Tu quoque fallacy? Tut!

    “My kind of scum” argues that *nobody* should be pushed into a lifestyle they don’t want! That’s the whole point of everything I’ve been saying here for the past several years! *They* don’t push anybody. *You* don’t push anybody.

    The basic principle of libertarianism is that society should not push people into lifestyles they don’t want, except to prevent unconsented-to harm to others. There are more than two sides here! (You can count to higher than two, can’t you?)

    “Who cares what the guy who partnered KITT thinks?”

    🙂

    “Oh, ‘dozens’… Well, that’s all right then.”

    Finite sample sizes give approximate results, and all samples are finite. Is that your complaint? This is not the only research done on the question – it just happened to already be in the article cited.

    “And just how do you ‘track down’ a gay man? What sort of spoor do you look out for?”

    I presume you ask the people running the therapy for names and addresses of clients, and write to them?

  36. “The claim is that conversion therapy will turn homosexuals into heterosexuals – that it gets rid of the desires and urges. It doesn’t. They’re deluding themselves and others if they think it will.”

    I claim that the categories you insist on above are the end product of processes that can be modified. If the individual concerned wants and is willing to co-operate. That some form of sexual urge is in built I agree. But that assorted paraphillias are created and maintained by genes I do not. You are free to pull your High Priest act Nivvo but that doesn’t make what you say true.

    Tracing down homosexuals who likely didn’t want thev “treatment” anyway and received only crass Skinnerian bungling is definitive proof of nothing.

    “My kind of scum” argues that *nobody* should be pushed into a lifestyle they don’t want! That’s the whole point of everything I’ve been saying here for the past several years! *They* don’t push anybody. *You* don’t push anybody.”

    And yet your Rainbow buddies are shrieking with joy about the 10 year old kid now all fucked up by his gay trannie supposed choices–yes indeed obviously all his own work.

    You posture as a Libertarian but you are SJW

  37. “But that assorted paraphillias are created and maintained by genes I do not.”

    That’s quite correct. But homosexuality and gender dysphoria aren’t paraphilias, they’re developmental abnormalities. Back in the 1920s, it was possibly excusable to think they were acquired paraphilias, like it was possibly excusable in the 1600s to think that illnesses were the result of demonic posession. But it’s *not* excusable to keep on believing it long after scientific knowledge has moved on.

    Of course, a large part of the problem is that virtually *all* the people who get dragged into this ‘therapy’ are deeply religious – an acquired delusional system of beliefs that *rejects* scientific knowledge if it disagrees with their bronze age dogma, and over history has managed to self-justify an endless series of atrocities and authoritarian abuses.

    Note, I’m not suggesting that religion be banned, or treated as the mental illness it obviously is. But I’m just pointing out that all these lunatic theories about homosexuality originated with Moses, who raped, slaughtered, and slaved his way across multiple nations making the worst of our present-day RoPers look like moderates, and who indeed was the ultimate inspiration for their attitudes. This is just a different branch of the same philosophy. Given what you say about the Muslims who apply other bits of this Mosaic crap, why would you think it acceptable today for you believe in the same?

    Because it’s *you* doing it?

    “…and received only crass Skinnerian bungling…”

    And yet the crass Skinnerian bungling goes on. Would you count them as *your* buddies doing it? Do *you* think torturing children is OK if you’ve persuaded them or their parents it’s in a ‘good cause’?

    “And yet your Rainbow buddies are…”

    What makes you think they’re my ‘buddies’? Can you count to more than two?

  38. “That’s quite correct. But homosexuality and gender dysphoria aren’t paraphilias, they’re developmental abnormalities.”

    Sez you Egoman. Sez you.

    “Back in the 1920s, it was possibly excusable to think they were acquired paraphilias, like it was possibly excusable in the 1600s to think that illnesses were the result of demonic posession. But it’s *not* excusable to keep on believing it long after scientific knowledge has moved on.”

    Absolute falsehood and deceit. Your usual scientistic cockrot and arrogant pontification disguised as supposed empiricism.

    “Of course, a large part of the problem is that virtually *all* the people who get dragged into this ‘therapy’ are deeply religious – an acquired delusional system of beliefs that *rejects* scientific knowledge if it disagrees with their bronze age dogma, and over history has managed to self-justify an endless series of atrocities and authoritarian abuses.”

    Absolute arrogant cockrot. You have no more knowledge of the truth or otherwise of religion than you mine from your own egotism.

    As for abuses–well your SJW pals are now brazenly trying to bully , harass and demanding violence against those who don’t care for their CM shite. Atrocity and abuse are on the way SJW. Unfortunately you and your pals aren’t going to win but it will be fun watching you take your shot.

    “Note, I’m not suggesting that religion be banned, or treated as the mental illness it obviously is.”

    The same arrogant sanctimonious know all prick you have always been NiV . And indeed getting worse.

    ” But I’m just pointing out that all these lunatic theories about homosexuality originated with Moses, who raped, slaughtered, and slaved his way across multiple nations making the worst of our present-day RoPers look like moderates, and who indeed was the ultimate inspiration for their attitudes.”

    An anti-Semite as well. But not an SJW–no never that. The Labour party awaits you with open arms and fly unzipped NiV.

    “This is just a different branch of the same philosophy. Given what you say about the Muslims who apply other bits of this Mosaic crap, why would you think it acceptable today for you believe in the same?”

    I will believe as I choose and defend those beliefs as I choose. If they are unacceptable to the likes of you so much the better.

    “And yet the crass Skinnerian bungling goes on. Would you count them as *your* buddies doing it? Do *you* think torturing children is OK if you’ve persuaded them or their parents it’s in a ‘good cause’?”

    Number who are undergoing this, names and addresses of clinics, medicos etc doing this supposed torture. In short facts rather than your hysterical hype.

    I already made clear that I care nothing for Skinners crap or trying to force those who don’t want to to undergo any such process.

    Of course there are those who do want to–despite the great NiV’s disapproval. About them we hear nothing from Mr Evidence-Based. He already knows what is and isn’t possible cos “science” tells him so. Just like it tells the AGW gang what they want to hear.

    “What makes you think they’re my ‘buddies’? Can you count to more than two?”

    You endorse their doctrines, you kiss their arse–don’t need to count to more than two to see thro’ your bogus alignment to supposed Liberty.

  39. “I will believe as I choose and defend those beliefs as I choose. If they are unacceptable to the likes of you so much the better.”

    Torturing children? So much the better?

  40. That is a pathetic riposte. Which is good as it shows you are reaching the limits of your own bullshit.

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