Sure they do

The church brutalised Ireland. People have a right to protest against the pope’s visit
Emer O’Toole

You’ve a right to say anything and protest anything you wish.

And also to accept what people think of you, consider you to be, as you do. Get on with it and accept whatever consequences there may be.

31 comments on “Sure they do

  1. Claims of abuse in Ireland by the Church are mostly figments of the leftists’ imaginations. Essentially Ireland is going through a Reformation and ceasing to be a Catholic country. As with most such cases, hysterical – and in the main untrue – accusations of sexual abuse are being made.

    So it is up to the Irish people then. But of course if they reject the Catholic Church, can they admit that Independence was all a mistake and they should have listened to the British all along?

  2. “And also to accept what people think of you, consider you to be, as you do.”

    Depends what you mean by “accept”. You have to accept that they’re going to call you names, you don’t necessarily have to accept that they’re right, and you can’t call them names back.

    People protest about the Pope. People protest at the people who protest about the Pope. And now people protest about the people who protest at the people who protest about the Pope. And so it goes on. At least nobody there is leaving bombs any more.

  3. One thing that strikes me about Ireland’s sociocultural meltdown and its attendant retarded anticlericalism is the implicit denial of responsibility.

    So: “the Church” brutalised Ireland, did it?

    Well, who are/were “the Church” in Ireland? Presumably not swooping Spanish inquisitors, infernal Italians, and the frumious French. And definitely not their traditional blame-sponge, Britain.

    Nope, it was Irish men and women. Priests, nuns, religious orders, lay people and the Irish government all played their part.

    So… why did the Irish brutalise the Irish? What’s to be done about that? How does aborting Irish babies help?

  4. “So… why did the Irish brutalise the Irish?”

    Just extend the same principle up to “human”.

    Why do humans brutalise humans? What’s to be done about it? And how does banning stuff or removing bans on stuff help?

  5. NiV – too broad to be helpful in this context. The Irish have specific problems, specific complaints.

    FWIW I reckon Ireland’s problems stem from the fact that anyone with ambition or talent left the place donkey’s ago. Lot of bitterness and frustration among the remainers, which manifests in their inferiority complex.

  6. NiV – “Why do humans brutalise humans? What’s to be done about it? And how does banning stuff or removing bans on stuff help?”

    Well banning people brutalising other people sounds like a good start.

    And in Ireland is actually fairly simple – the Catholic Church produced a situation where pretty much every child had two parents – usually their biological parent. Since Ireland has decided to become like Coronation Street, over half of all children are born to single mothers.

    As a child is massively more likely to be abused in a single parent family, it follows that the secularization of Ireland will lead to massively greater levels of child abuse.

    Which suggests it was not a good idea.

  7. I expect the young females of Rotherham and other English cities would have dreamt of only suffering Catholic Church levels of abuse.

  8. Why do humans brutalise humans?

    Because it’s in our nature. Chimp troops go to war. Lions kill the young of other lions. Humans kill each other and . Just like other species. We’re just better at it.

    What’s to be done about it?
    Civilisation is a good place to start. If you don’t have to worry too much about where your next meal is coming from, you’re less likely to bludgeon your neighbour to death for a few coins.

    And how does banning stuff or removing bans on stuff help?
    Banning murder helps. If you know there are serious consequences of stabbing your neighbour to death, it takes more to make you do it. It shifts the cost benefit analysis to costly.
    Banning stuff is debatable endlessly. Ban guns and it makes it harder to shoot someone. But it also makes it harder to defend yourself. I’d personally lean to not banning things and just have consequences for undesirable actions.

  9. Steve said “Lot of bitterness and frustration among the remainers, which manifests in their inferiority complex.”

    True, but OT as this post is not about Brexit 🙂

  10. Having seen what the Catholic church has done to Latin-Americans, it’s hard to think of a response that’s too extreme. Ignore everything else. It’s the intellectual stunting.
    They’ve taken cause>effect & replaced it with superstition. Hijacked workable cultural hypotheses, catholised them & set them in stone so they can’t evolve to a better understanding of the world.
    There’s something angers me beyond anything else. The poor families send their daughters out into the world to sell their bodies & return their earnings to put food on tables. Ignoring the morality of this, that catholic priests will, knowing full well where the money’s coming from, cajole the families into donating a portion of it to their festering church to atone for the sins committed is beyond understanding.

  11. “As a child is massively more likely to be abused in a single parent family”

    There’s a correlation – it depends what the causal relationship is.

    A widespread theory is that it’s the result of the unwise young getting pregnant early, being unable to get abortions, having to raise a kid with insufficient resources and an irresponsible father, resulting in girls being forced to put up with a series of low-quality abusive boyfriends for the sake of the financial support, who have little emotional connection with the kids, and are often ill-educated and from violent backgrounds themselves. People make mistakes, and people from such backgrounds especially so. They have no foresight. The original moral argument for abortion was precisely to avoid girls (and their kids) getting trapped in that lifestyle.

    If an unmarried girl gets pregnant, she can either have an abortion or become a single parent. How does it help to reduce single parenthood to ban abortion?

    “I expect the young females of Rotherham and other English cities would have dreamt of only suffering Catholic Church levels of abuse.”

    The Catholics were worse, and operated on a much larger scale.

    But the Muslims are essentially just a different branch of the same root philosophy, and they got their rules from the same source. Authoritarian religions all have the same basic problem: they’re full of authoritarians.

    They all look different from the inside.

    “Banning stuff is debatable endlessly. Ban guns and it makes it harder to shoot someone. But it also makes it harder to defend yourself. I’d personally lean to not banning things and just have consequences for undesirable actions.”

    That’s my view.

  12. NIV
    Authoritarian religions all have the same basic problem: they’re full of authoritarians.

    That’s actually not the problem, at least with the RC Church.

    The problem is that these organisations are all full of followers. They will perform mental gymnastics trying to justify obvious evil committed by their ‘betters’.

    My (now deceased) mother tried to justify all sorts of immoral nonsense, but then she believed that priests were of higher spiritual status than angels. Imagine having that argument with your mother. 🙂

  13. “The problem is that these organisations are all full of followers.”

    Agreed. I define authoritarianism as the belief that society has the right and duty to tell its members how to live their private lives, for their own good and for the good of society. They’re members of a club, with rules, that they think should apply to everyone. They have a set of social norms defining how people ought to live, and agree to them being imposed them even on themselves.

    It’s not quite the same as ‘autocrat’, which is someone who believes everyone should do what *they* say.

  14. Thomas Fuller – excellent.

    Bloke in Spain – Having seen what the Catholic church has done to Latin-Americans

    Stopped them from ripping people’s still-beating hearts out as sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl?

    NiV – The Catholics were worse, and operated on a much larger scale.

    Absolute bullshit.

  15. @Chernyy_Drakon

    +1

    Even meerkat clans go to war over territory.

    Lions are more brutal than humans – when a new male takes over he kills the previous one’s male children.

  16. @Pcar

    I disagree that lions are more brutal. Killing the cubs is harsh, but has a function – it brings the lionesses back into heat.

    Lions don’t set up concentration camps, or do any of the massively depraved things to each other that people have been known to do. Reading about Unit 731 makes me want to go and live on Mars, or somewhere around Proxima Centari…

  17. At least O’Toole knows how to use the verb “protest” which is more than wot our ‘ost duz.

  18. “Absolute bullshit.”

    I’ve not heard about any hidden mass graves being found in Rotherham. And they had rather fewer victims than the 30,000 women incarcerated in the Magdalene laundries.

    But it demonstrates once again that there is no depth of evil that true believers in an authoritarian cause can’t or won’t justify. Rather like the Islamic apologists, really.

    They believe they’re totally in the right, too. And that anyone who says otherwise are liars and propagandists.

  19. bloke in spain – “Ignoring the morality of this, that catholic priests will, knowing full well where the money’s coming from, cajole the families into donating a portion of it to their festering church to atone for the sins committed is beyond understanding.”

    You know, I think there are lots of possible responses to this. But I will be generous and assume that it is just a text book case of projection. After all those priests are not being forced, *forced* I tell you, to live the Life of the Rich and Shameless on the Costa del Sol off the backs of those exploited girls.

    It must be nice to be comfortably off *and* have someone else to blame.

  20. gunker – “36 % are born outside of wedlock.”

    I stand corrected. As if that is any better. The collapse of the Church means an explosion of child abuse.

    NiV – “There’s a correlation – it depends what the causal relationship is.”

    No that is not a correlation. That is an observed fact.

    “A widespread theory is that it’s the result of the unwise young getting pregnant early, being unable to get abortions, having to raise a kid with insufficient resources and an irresponsible father, resulting in girls being forced to put up with a series of low-quality abusive boyfriends for the sake of the financial support, who have little emotional connection with the kids, and are often ill-educated and from violent backgrounds themselves.”

    Widespread? Among whom exactly? Baby P did not suffer from a society where his mother was unable to get an abortion. Nor one where his mother lacked resources. Given the welfare state. You are just doing the usual Leftist trick of blaming a lack of socialism.

    The rest is likely to be true though. Except for the bit about being young.

    However the choice is not between abortion with single motherhood and child abuse. It is rather between restraint, discipline, and social values on the one hand and abortion, birth control, extra-marital sex *and* child abuse on the other. Abortion increases the number of single mothers. It increases the amount of child abuse. As you can see in Black America. In the end the choice is between sexual dysfunction or sexual restraint. Abortion erodes the latter and increases the former.

    “The original moral argument for abortion was precisely to avoid girls (and their kids) getting trapped in that lifestyle.”

    And so it has comprehensively failed. Except the original argument wasn’t. One of the original lies that the people putting forward did not believe was. It worked among middle class people who can imagine it only too well.

    “If an unmarried girl gets pregnant, she can either have an abortion or become a single parent. How does it help to reduce single parenthood to ban abortion?”

    She can also put it up for adoption. It helps because she is less likely to have pre-marital sex. She is more likely to marry the father.

    “The Catholics were worse, and operated on a much larger scale.”

    Rubbish. You are making sh!t up now. The British education system probably produces more sexually abused children each year than the Catholics have done since World War Two.

    NiV – “I’ve not heard about any hidden mass graves being found in Rotherham. And they had rather fewer victims than the 30,000 women incarcerated in the Magdalene laundries.”

    There are no hidden mass graves anywhere to do with the Church either. This is a Blood Libel. Thirty thousand women were saved in the best welfare plan for single mothers known to mankind – and they could have walked out at any time.

    “They believe they’re totally in the right, too. And that anyone who says otherwise are liars and propagandists.”

    You are a liar and a propagandist. This is not a matter of dispute. See the mass graves claim.

  21. “However the choice is not between abortion with single motherhood and child abuse. It is rather between restraint, discipline, and social values on the one hand and abortion, birth control, extra-marital sex *and* child abuse on the other.”

    Sounds wonderful, except that people – especially teenagers in the process of rebelling against strict parental controls – aren’t like that. Humans only learn from experience.

    It’s like the way the prohibitionists were blamed for the rise of the Mafia-run speakeasys, the war between rival Mafia gangs, and the smuggling trade. The Prohibitionists denied it, of course. “The choice isn’t between legal, licenced drinking establishments and criminal-run underground bars, it’s a choice between people succumbing to drunken sin and people resisting temptation to live in sober virtue.”

    It’s what the prodnoses *always* say – “There would be no trouble if only people did what we tell them to!”

    Well, if you can somehow persuade teenagers to take your advice and move instantly to that mature life of sober virtue, then you don’t need any of your rules and bans, because the bars and abortion clinics will be empty.

    However, in the absence of the means of universal social thought-control, humans will be humans, and banning stuff doesn’t stop it happening. Bans only affect the law-abiding.

    “Rubbish. You are making sh!t up now. The British education system probably produces more sexually abused children each year than the Catholics have done since World War Two.”

    First, the comparison was with Rotherham, not the British education system. Second, you’re now acting as an apologist for child abuse, making arguments to try to minimise it! Take a look at yourself.

    But it’s an interesting claim, anyway. Here’s some data on Catholic child abuse since the second world war. Now show me your data on the British education system. (And your demonstration that it is the education system to blame for it, rather than just collating all the child abuse going on in Britain.)

    “There are no hidden mass graves anywhere to do with the Church either. This is a Blood Libel.”

    Liar.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-babies-and-children-found-at-tuam-orphanage-in-ireland

    https://www.history.com/news/magdalene-laundry-ireland-asylum-abuse

    “Thirty thousand women were saved in the best welfare plan for single mothers known to mankind – and they could have walked out at any time.”

    Though most residents had not been convicted of any crime, conditions inside were prison-like. “Redemption might sometimes involve a variety of coercive measures, including shaven heads, institutional uniforms, bread and water diets, restricted visiting, supervised correspondence, solitary confinement and even flogging,”

    The surviving women themselves said otherwise. The historians say otherwise. The Irish authorities say otherwise. But I suppose you’ll cheerfully call them all liars, too. Because they call into question your precious beliefs, right? Do you think the Islamic apologists act or believe otherwise in defence of their precious religion?

  22. FWIW I reckon Ireland’s problems stem from the fact that anyone with ambition or talent left the place donkey’s ago.

    And the fact that they’re lost both socially and economically without Britain. Their anger over Brexit is in large part because it has brought this little annoying fact into sharp relief.

  23. Ignoring the morality of this, that catholic priests will, knowing full well where the money’s coming from, cajole the families into donating a portion of it to their festering church to atone for the sins committed is beyond understanding.

    Funny you should say this, I was with a Greek mate recently whose father hates the Orthodox Church. When he was a young man during the civil war there was almost nothing to eat, yet the church still demanded the peasants cough up their food and the priests helped themselves to the juiciest morsels – knowing full well the children in each household would go hungry.

  24. Lions are more brutal than humans – when a new male takes over he kills the previous one’s male children.

    The Ottomans did that. Killed their brothers, too.

  25. @Chernyy_Drakon

    Lions don’t set up concentration camps, or do any of the massively depraved things to each other that people have been known to do.

    We know Lions can’t; what they would if the could is unkown.

    However, we do know whales can be cruel and vengeful to other whales, mammals & fish.

    .
    @Tim Newman, July 11, 2018 at 9:22 am

    Thanks for info

  26. I cannot believe I’m agreeing with an “assistant professor of Irish performance studies at Concordia University in Canada”. But I am. The Catholic Church in Ireland for most of the 20th century was an abomination, made worse by the indoctrination of millions into its twisted ideology, encouraging them to actively help with the repression, torture and even murder of their fellows.

  27. “The Church brutalised Ireland.”

    Yeah right. And there was nothing Ireland could do abouy ot; helpless ot was. Poor little Ireland. And then,decades later, when Ireland found out about it -and the horrifying scale of it apparently – it was truly shocked. Never had a clue about the brurality or its scale.
    Pure fucking blarney. A compete re-writing of history. Wbo’d have suspected the Irish of that?

  28. @Ironman, July 12, 2018 at 5:36 pm

    “The RC Church brutalised UK.” which is why, today, we celebrate the victory of The Great Revolution 1699-90 which rejected RC rule.

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