Yes, amusing

London is known as a bastion of liberal values.

But by some measures the capital city is less progressive than you might think.

Findings from the British Social Attitudes survey found that residents were the least likely to say that pre-marital sex and homosexuality were rarely or never wrong.

Just 73 per cent held this view about sex before marriage and 67 per cent about same-sex relationships.

The trend is despite London having the largest proportion of gay, lesbian and bisexual people in the country.

Researchers said the regional variations were down to “religious differences” between different areas of the country and Londoners’ social conservatism was “largely driven by religious factors”.

“Controlling for religion, a factor significantly correlated with views towards pre-marital sex, differences between London and other regions became statistically non-significant,” the paper said.

So, what’s the explanation? Which religion and its association with immigration?

Part of it would be Judaism – not that I claim to be an expert but isn’t London home to the only substantial Hassidic or equivalent communities in the UK? But much of the rest of it would be Islam, no?

47 comments on “Yes, amusing

  1. There are also the Hindus, the Sikhs, the African Anglicans, the Greek Orthodox, etc. Is any religion (other than Anglican) actually gay-friendly?

  2. There aren’t many Hasidic Jews, and they’re moving or have moved to Canvey.
    But 50% of London is non-British now so perhaps we can say that foreigners in general are, at least in some ways, less tolerant than Britons.

  3. “But 50% of London is non-British now so perhaps we can say that foreigners in general are, at least in some ways, less tolerant than Britons.”

    Yes, but also given that incoming, on average, are more religious than indigenous?

    Might make sense, even at the Western European level, given Brits’ relaxed attitude to the CoE?

  4. There’s a huge difference between believing some activity to be ‘wrong’ (on religious or other grounds) and believing it should be forbidden by law or otherwise prevented by the state. Most Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Parsees and Buddhists* would, if asked, state that adultery was ‘wrong’. This doesn’t mean that they believe it should be forbidden.

    * not sure about Wiccans

  5. Smfs &co will be most pleased with this welcome development!

    Ftr most wiccans are not keen on adultery and some also not keen on teh gayers.

  6. There’s a huge difference between believing some activity to be ‘wrong’ (on religious or other grounds) and believing it should be forbidden by law or otherwise prevented by the state.

    Exactly.

    Though the religio-political ideology of Islam doesn’t fall into that category: many RoPers would cheerfully throw gays off the Shard.

    And many secular and religious opponents of abortion don’t fall into that category either, believing that their moral intuition should be law.

    The purpose of law in a (classically) liberal society is to preserve freedom and order. In a (classically) liberal society, moral disapproval of x doesn’t imply x should be illegal; and the legality of y doesn’t imply moral approval of y.

  7. I love the fact the study authors are such cowards they cannot even bring themselves to mention the religion in question by name, fearing either being the victim of a ‘fatwa’ or being accused of ‘Islamophobia’. Meanwhile the elephant in the room of contemporary discourse keeps getting bigger and the demographics tilt more and more in its favour every year.

  8. There’s another thing of course. You don’t really see much racism & lack of tolerance of the wilder shores of sexual identity out in the predominately white, heterosexual shires. But then they don’t actually see much of people of other races or the weirdos.
    London is a whole other story.

  9. Bloke in Germany in Hospital – “Smfs &co will be most pleased with this welcome development!”

    Actually I can hardly raise any enthusiasm either way. Neither the Islamists or the homosexuals support me or anything I care about. If one side wishes to throw the other off a building, I really couldn’t give a damn.

    If it came down to it, I probably think ISIS is marginally less insane than the Transsexual lobby and its friends.

  10. Theophrastus,

    I’d have thought that the Shard was a bad chucking off point, and the victim is likely to bounce and damage glass several times on the way down. Besides, you have to pay to go up, and gay-chuckers aren’t known for their willingness to cough up from their benefits …

    As far as I know, part of London believes that if you commit adultery, you get stoned, but another part believes it the other way round!

  11. If you replace the English population with non-NW Europeans, what do you expect?

    Classical liberalism and its belief in tolerance is pretty much a product of the British Isles, not sub-Saharan Africa or the Indian sub-continent. People from those regions don’t magically become British simply by being transplanted here.

  12. Having mostly rid ourselves of religious bigots, we then import millions of foreign ones instead, but refuse to talk about it. Marvellous stuff!

  13. >There’s a huge difference between believing some activity to be ‘wrong’ (on religious or other grounds) and believing it should be forbidden by law or otherwise prevented by the state.

    You’re behind the times. It’s now becoming a thoughtcrime to even believe such things are immoral, even if you think they should be legal. (But you’re exempted, for now at least, if you’re a Muzzie.)

  14. ‘Just 73 per cent held this view’

    “When it should be 100 percent, dammit!”

    Libtards use surveys to create news. We don’t know the questions asked, we don’t know who they asked. Skepticism is the proper reaction to the story.

  15. “Classical liberalism and its belief in tolerance is pretty much a product of the British Isles”

    The Brits, surrounded by sea, have always been able to afford tolerance. Bit different when you’ve other cultures snuggling up against indefensible land borders.

  16. Thanks to ecks at al for the wishes.

    I am having an enormous number of tests done.

    I’ll let you know if they find anything right with me.

  17. BIG (IH)

    Hope they diagnose any problems and that you are back to full fitness soon…….

  18. “Van_Patten

    Meanwhile the elephant in the room…”

    Which, via Diane Abbot, brings us to the Labour party.

    There are 250,000 Jews in the UK and 2.6m Muslims. Labour got 85% of the Muslim vote at the last election.

    Small wonder that Corbyn allows a bit of Jew bashing among his members.

  19. “Part of it would be Judaism – not that I claim to be an expert but isn’t London home to the only substantial Hassidic or equivalent communities in the UK? But much of the rest of it would be Islam, no?”

    Judaism is unlikely – they’re less than 2% of the population, even in London. The main differences in religion between London and the rest of the UK are fewer Christians and more non-religious, which would make it more liberal, but more Muslims and Hindus, which makes it less liberal. As you suggest, Islam is very likely responsible.

    “Libtards use surveys to create news. We don’t know the questions asked, we don’t know who they asked. Skepticism is the proper reaction to the story.”

    Scepticism is the proper reaction to *any* news story, but in this case you *do* know the questions because I’ve linked to this same survey here, repeatedly! It’s the British Social Attitudes survey – Trust for London have just asked them to re-analyse the survey data to report on London specifically.

    Have a look at table 1 on page 8 here. You can see that all the Christian denominations are steadily becoming more liberal over time, but they all still lag behind the non-religious. It’s less clear what’s going on with the non-Christian religions, which are all lumped together. The figures reported nationally are 36% in 2005, 21% in 2012, and 33% in 2016. The report points to the big rise in liberality between 2012 and 2016, but if you include 2005 it would probably be more accurate to say ‘oscillating’. Note, that’s labelled “% saying premarital sex “not wrong at all”, saying which merits the death penalty under Sharia.

    Frankly, it’s remarkable that anyone of *any* Moses-inspired religion is answering thus! It’s like asking how many Christians don’t believe in God :- the answer suggests that people aren’t using religious categories to mean what you think they mean.

  20. Another +1 for well wishes to Bloke in Germany. Hope nothing too serious. Better there than in the NHS either way…

  21. Pat said:
    “There aren’t many Hasidic Jews, and they’re moving or have moved to Canvey.”

    Really? To be handy for the roller coaster? Sounds an unlikely place to pick.

  22. Excavator Man said:
    “As far as I know, part of London believes that if you commit adultery, you get stoned, but another part believes it the other way round!”

    I like that.

  23. London is known as a bastion of liberal values.

    That sentence is doing a lot of work there, especially “liberal values”. If they meant it is a “bastion of tightly defined ideological beliefs enforced by violent intolerance” then I would agree.

  24. “It’s less clear what’s going on with the non-Christian religions, which are all lumped together. The figures reported nationally are 36% in 2005, 21% in 2012, and 33% in 2016.”

    It’s very clear that non-Christian religions are a lot less liberal than anyone else.

    At 4.4% of the UK population Muslims outnumber all other non-Christian religions put together.

  25. London is known as a bastion of liberal values.

    Maybe that’s the bastion London is to wogs, but meanwhile, in the real world, at this moment London is known more as a bastion of stabbings and acid attacks. And one with a rather dim and petulant man-child as Mayor who can offer no answers to solve that particular problem.

  26. Import the third world and then surprised that we have imported third world attitudes. London’s a shithole – as good argument for carpet bombing only second to Morocco.

  27. “Import the third world and then surprised that we have imported third world attitudes.”

    As you can see from table 1, as I cited above, you’ve only imported the attitude that “Other Christian” sects here had as recently as 1985!

    They’re not “third world”, they’re “traditional”. 🙂

  28. “As far as I know, part of London believes that if you commit adultery, you get stoned, but another part believes it the other way round!”

    I have a vague memory of hearing similar from Sir Humphrey in Yes Minister, presumably the Qumran bribery episode.

  29. @dennis – never been to the US so can’t comment.

    @NIV – I never read your links. Life is too short. Acceptance of homosexuality by muslims – i have seen surveys where the results are 0 % and we are not wibbling on about 1985 but 2018 if you hadn’t noticed.

  30. “@NIV – I never read your links. Life is too short.”

    🙂

    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.
    Isaac Asimov

    “Acceptance of homosexuality by muslims – i have seen surveys where the results are 0 % and we are not wibbling on about 1985 but 2018 if you hadn’t noticed.”

    Why would you think I hadn’t noticed? Unless you’re assuming that I treasure my ignorance as much as you do? 🙂

    It depends which country you’re looking at, obviously. The cultural war of conversion/corruption has progressed at different rates in different places. You wouldn’t know that, of course, not having looked at the world outside your bubble.

    However, for your amusement, here’s another link on those “third world attitudes” for you to not read: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-muslims-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-lgbt-rights-transgender-islam-liberal-a7873276.html

    As Orwell put it: “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” Stay strong. Resist following the links!

  31. @Chris Miller, July 18, 2018 at 8:44 am

    Majority of RoPs in UK believe homosexuality should be illegal

  32. “The trend is despite London having the largest proportion of gay, lesbian and bisexual people in the country.”

    Maybe that despite should be because. If they didn’t keep banging on about it most people would just shrug and get on with their life.

    The LBGTQWERTY crowd need to be told they really aren’t special

  33. @ Richard
    The Hasidics are/have (not sure on the timing) moved to Canvey. Multiple sources. No Idea why. Maybe they’re Islamophobe?

  34. “If they didn’t keep banging on about it most people would just shrug and get on with their life.”

    Most people do. It’s only you guys who keep on banging on about it. 🙂

  35. @niv – i never argue with people who thinks it’s a good idea to cut their dicks off to win an argument. You are a very very tedious person . Heres hoping for a caliphate so you can have flying lessons. Yes you do seem to treasure your ignorance.

  36. “Heres hoping for a caliphate so you can have flying lessons.”

    Heh!

    Where did you get the idea they’d want to give me flying lessons?

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