44 comments on “This’ll work, won’t it

  1. Ministers and aides have convinced the prime minister that she needs “a handbag moment” with EU bosses if she is to have any chance of persuading her own MPs to support her.

    Imagine being this fucking stupid.

    The handbag moment is supposed to come before you destroy all your political capital by lying about Brexit for two and a half years and then touring the country insisting your surrender agreement is the best possible deal and anyone who opposes it is a wrecker and an extremist.

  2. The problem at this stage is that May had her chance to be serious about “Brexit means Brexit” after all the times the remain socialist cucks of the Conservative party showed their true colours:-

    “Racists, gadflies and loonies”
    “Iron clad promise”
    “Serious renegotiation”

    Rebuilding trust or changing people’s political opinions is the proverbial “turning the supertanker”.

    May must go. The membership must get a vote. If there’s no Brexiteer on the ballot, I’ll be out of there.

  3. If she’s emulating anyone even remotely, it’s her predecessor with his scrofulous “deal” that the electorate declined to support.

  4. Oh good lord…

    If she’s not going to threaten that no deal is a possibility, it’ll just be “EU says NO” for the nth time…

  5. You demand from 10 Downing.

    Chamberlain went to Munich; May will go to Brussels.

    Of course, the problem is the notion of “a deal.” No “deal” is required. “We’re out” is all that’s needed or indicated.

  6. May must go. The membership must get a vote. If there’s no Brexiteer on the ballot, I’ll be out of there.

    The problem is that nobody in the Tory party wants to replace her, since BRExit has become such a poisoned chalice that it has contaminated the premiership itself. I can’t see her being ousted any time before March (although after that, she’s probably fair game)

    This is assuming that the playing field remains the same and we don’t get some bullshit shenanigans like Article 50 extension / withdrawal, etc.

    I wouldn’t put it past the treasonous cunt.

  7. She wants an offering to get her past the vote. She does not want a deal that takes us out of the EU, the purpose of never-ending deferments is to make rejoining immediately possible whensoever they think they can get away with it.

    And whatever comes back how can it be voted on by Tuesday?

  8. The mistake being made is to regard may as the problem. Far from it. She’s just the scab on the head of the boil. The Tory Party is puss all the way down.

  9. And before Theo or any of the other cheerleaders tries exonerating this one or that one. They all stood on the same manifesto platform. They knew what May & the rest of the bunch were like, much better than us. There are no excuses.

  10. She should go the whole way and make a Churchillian speech as well for all the good its going to do.

  11. Gamecock,

    “Chamberlain went to Munich; May will go to Brussels.”

    There’s a simple truth written about Munich: everyone was stupid cowards. The reality is that it would have meant getting into a war situation with a country that was vastly better armed (especially in the air) to stop Germany annexing the majority-German speaking border areas of Czechoslovakia.

    Chamberlain did nothing to stop rearmament. He might have been too trustworthy of Hitler, thought he would stop at the pro-German border areas, but he still planned for war, just in case.

    It’s easy to be smart after the event. If we’d gone to war a year earlier, we’d have been fighting in German-supporting areas of Czechoslovakia and gotten creamed. Or attacked Germany and gotten creamed. Our air power was woeful in 1938. We barely had any of the aircraft we needed for the Battle of Britain.

    There’s no comparison between Chamberlain and the surrender that May has produced.

  12. She has spent some time telling us that we will be out of the single marker, out of the customs union, have control of immigration and cease paying and maintain the union. She then produces a deal that offers little of that, for which we pay £39bn. Why should we trust her.
    She has repeatedly gone behind the backs of her cabinet and lied to MPs. Why would they trust her? Indeed the unusual scrutiny they have given her deal indicates that they don’t.
    She has presumably led the commission to believe she could deliver this deal. If she can’t how can they trust her?
    I doubt that Parliament is going to pass legislation overturning our leaving the EU, and the Maria Miller case conceded the precedent that she cannot withdraw the article 50 letter without an act of Parliament.
    I’d bet we leave on time with no deal and less preparation than could have been.
    In a way the issue was solved in principle by the referendum. We are leaving. The debate since has been as to whether we do so as quickly and painlessly as possible, or as slowly and painfully as possible.
    Assuming she loses the vote in Tues. I hope the party finally removes her from the leadership.

  13. bloke in spain,

    “And before Theo or any of the other cheerleaders tries exonerating this one or that one. They all stood on the same manifesto platform. They knew what May & the rest of the bunch were like, much better than us. There are no excuses.”

    I will admit to a misjudgement of May. I thought she was serious. I thought a lot of the one nation wing had realised that they were wrong. I now realise they are traitorous, dishonest scum.

    But a lot of the Conservative Party aren’t like that. Most of the membership want out. They want May out. If the membership do even the smallest amount of work (refuse to volunteer, threaten to leave), MPs will get deselected.

  14. Pat,

    I *want* a second referendum now.

    I believe people would vote Leave again, and then, they’d vote for an alternative party of the right. The Conservatives would either have to purge every federalist or face defeat. Supporting remain, let alone the WA, would see you as a marked man by many voters.

  15. ‘Theresa May will seek to emulate Margaret Thatcher by travelling to Brussels to demand a better Brexit deal in a last-ditch attempt to save her government from collapse.’

    Is this the same Theresa May who has been adamant that the Surrender Agreement was the ONLY deal possible?

    Hello, Theresa May, may I introduce Truth, it seems you have never met.

  16. ‘The reality is that it would have meant getting into a war situation with a country that was vastly better armed (especially in the air) to stop Germany annexing the majority-German speaking border areas of Czechoslovakia.’

    How’d that work out for you?

  17. If she decides to depart after losing the vote (yes, assumptions), what’s the soonest a new leader can get elected / PM installed?

  18. BoM4 – I’m also a Chamberlain sympathiser. He was a good man and a very able Chancellor who had Britain’s interests at heart.

    His attempt to prevent the horrible disaster that was WW2 was widely popular with British people at the time. As Wikipedia puts it:

    The streets were so packed with cheering people that it took Chamberlain an hour and a half to journey the nine miles (14 km) from Heston to the Palace

    And as you say we were in a poor negotiating position in 1938 anyway.

    Listening to his declaration of war is still heartbreaking. The simple English decency of the man as he lays out the facts, in a calm, rational, but resolute manner. And ultimately, he resigned with great dignity.

    We would be lucky to have a Neville Chamberlain in Downing Street today. Theresa May is more of a Vidkun Quisling.

  19. @John Galt
    The problem is that nobody in the Tory party wants to replace her, since BRExit has become such a poisoned chalice that it has contaminated the premiership itself.

    I assume you didn’t catch BoJo on the Marr this morning?
    https://order-order.com/
    (He’s even had a haircut – must be serious!)

  20. Its is just fantasy bullshit. Handbag the EU–HER?

    If she begged them on both knees and offered to let them do her anyway they liked all she still would get is gales of laughter.

    She has said she can do no better. They have told her repeatedly that no better can be done. She gave away any strength she had at the nego table. They know that there are battered old Hoover bags that are more formidable leaders than her. She can’t postpone Tuesday at this late moment. If–Please God Almighty–her deal is deservedly shitcanned then she has nowhere left to go.

  21. re Chamberlain.
    Had we declared war in 1938 we’d have been fighting with no Spitfires, very few huricanes, and Gloucester Gladiators. Not a good prospect. We needed time.
    And he started rearmament, and accelerated it after Munich.
    The villain was Baldwin, who allowed the side situation to develop.
    Sure he was not a natural warrior, and his replacement by Churchill was warranted, but he bought enough time to do enough preparation to give Churchill a chance.

  22. It would have been far better to fight Hitler in 1938 than in 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945.

    England, France, and Poland were in far better position militarily in 1938 than in 1940, vis a vis Germany. Attacks from Poland and France on Germany would have been the end of Hitler. The problem was they didn’t want to fight. Hitler knew it, and played Chamberlain like a fiddle.

  23. @Pat, December 9, 2018 at 2:08 pm

    +1

    BBC Question Time

    Glad I posted analysis of Cox’s Legal Advice. Hits target in first question.

    Exposed Brokenshire’s lies in his answer.

    Brokenshire trots out Belfast Agreement lies too: “frictionless/open border”. Border – zero mentions in BA; don’t believe me: word search it.

    Blackford spot on to be blunt and state “May is lying to Parliament and country”

    Rutter: “temporary, but indefinite” – is she a walt MP?

    Moore: “I’m only Leaver on panel, backstop permanent and annexes part of UK. Breaks May’s ‘red-line’ ”

    Chakrabarti: Gov’t Backstop ‘prison’ permanent until EU releases us.

    Only Brokenshite supporting May’s Lies and Treason.
    .

    Pink jumper chap nailed it:

    Shami Chakrabarti talks about things happening for the first time in history. If this agreement went through for the first time in our history we would have a foreign power in control of our Parliament. We would have a foreign power setting our taxes, making laws that we have no say on whatsoever. And would put the people of this country in that position and to tell us that she is honouring the result of the referendum is a lie

    Addendum:

    May’s Deal rejected by: Blair, Campbell, Gina Miller… Morgan, Soubry, Wollaston…
    Bojo, JRM, Farage

    Left & Right, Leave & Remain all reject May’s Deal. Hmm, May’s “a united UK” not a positive achievement. She’s achieved a “deal” promoted with blatant lies which has exacerbated division, obliterated trust in Gov’t, confirmed she lies and traduced democracy.

    C4 News: Rory Stewart humiliated again trying to sell May’s “Surrender Agreement” at voter meeting – 10-15% support

    Demonstrates how “New” Daily Mail is manipulating polls by comparing apples with corpses.

  24. Mendacious May

    Explaining May’s Brexit betrayal in 1,000 words

    Theresa May increasingly looks like a demagogue who treats democracy like a naïve lover whom she can alternatively abuse or flatter.

    The period after March 2019 is known variously as “interim” or “transition,” but should be known as an indefinite extension of membership without authorities – or purgatory, for short.

    This purgatory is indefinite until the EU says otherwise. It probably won’t end until Britain attempts to re-join the EU. This is because the EU can veto our request. May’s draft withdrawal agreement (now approved by all other member states) specifies that both Britain and the EU must agree when Britain can leave. If they dispute, the matter is referred ultimately to the ECJ (although May keeps pretending that it will be adjudicated by an “independent panel” – a term that doesn’t appear in the agreement).

    The EU can force Britain into either indefinite extension of purgatory or separation of NorthernIreland. The latter is the mis-termed “backstop” – a term meant to distract us from the fact that a province would be left behind in the EU. May keeps reassuring us that nobody wants this to happen, but this is contradicted by the fact that the EU insisted on this provision before it would agree to “any deal”.

    The EU and Eire claim that they must be sure that the border between Eire and Northern Ireland never becomes a “hard border” – for the sake of trade and the peace agreement – but these are red herrings. The border was open before the EU, Britain and Ireland had free trade before the EU, and the peace agreement was agreed without the EU. The hysteria coming from Brussels and Dublin about “the threat of a hard border” smacks of Eire’s intent to incorporate the province, and the EU’s intent to keep a painful grip on Britain’s softest appendage.

    Remember this: if you can’t understand an offer, it’s probably not a good offer.

    .

    May’s latest idea:

    If EU permits: Three months before end of “Implementation/Transition Period” aka Stay in EU with no representation, MPs can vote for a six month extension to prevent Backstop. This can be repeated every six months.

    Wondrous idea, vote to stay in EU to prevent deal in which UK stays in EU.

    Taxpayers are paying May & her spads for this nursery school proposal.

    Meanwhile
    May lights Christmas Tree and scared children sing “Oh Come All Ye Faithful”, but none come to May’s salvation.

    More apt would have been “In The Bleak Midwinter”

    Want to scare Children, Santa and Christmas?

    Display this Poster

  25. Don’t believe they ever expected this deal to go through this is all just theatre to make the real deal seem more palatable. The problem being they have been much too heavy handed in the setup

  26. She [May] has no shame, no goodness within her heart.

    Yes, agree. A (leftie) vicar’s daughter filled with evil and betrayal of righteousness.

    JRM: This Gov’t can not be trusted and May can not be trusted.

    Betraying Att. Gen. Cox too by sacrificing him to further her ulterior motives.

    What EU position has Junker & Merkel offered her? EU Parliament President my bet.

    .
    Chance of UK receiving EU agreement to Leave “Backstop” = Zero

    The Irish Ambassador has made absolutely clear in a letter to The Spectator on 1 December that Ireland will always exercise the veto [on UK Leaving Backstop] on the EU’s behalf since it will never accept that “existing technology and administrative facilitation can remove the need for any border infrastructure or controls”

    Hmm, I’d say 1688 Glorious Revolution is pertinent.

    Especially so when Irish opposition to GB/UK independence from foreign control has surfaced again.

    Perhaps it’s time for Prince William, Baron of Carrickfergus, to lead an expeditionary mission to the Boyne.

  27. Don’t believe they ever expected this deal to go through this is all just theatre to make the real deal seem more palatable

    I don’t think the government is that clever, BniC. Remember, this is the PM who blew a 20+ point advantage against Jeremy Corbyn in an election she chose to call. This looks more like a classic omnishambles.

    It would have been far better to fight Hitler in 1938 than in 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945.

    Rilly? Fight him with what? Britain wasn’t set up to fight another continental war. Our army was tiny and the RAF was a skeleton of what it would later become. The French had an entirely defensive posture. The Poles would’ve simply been crushed.

    The problem was they didn’t want to fight.

    Sure, but this wasn’t so much a problem as a sane and rational determination not to feed another generation of their sons, brothers and husbands to the meat grinder.

    In 1938, the first World War was about as recent to contemporaries as the Iraq War is to us. Only it was infinitely more destructive, completely destabilised Europe, and led to the rise of the most bloody totalitarian regimes ever seen in history – and even Germany looked like it might fall to Communism before Herr Hitler showed up. WW1 was the worst disaster in European history since the Black Death, and only insane lunatics and Stalin wanted to repeat it.

    There’s not a hamlet in Britain that doesn’t have a war memorial listing all its sons who went off to fight in France, never to return. Teenagers, in many cases, who left behind grieving families who’d never recover. No wonder Chamberlain was mobbed by grateful crowds when he promised “peace in our time”. What parent wanted their children to die over border disputes between Germany and Czechoslovakia or whatever?

    We know now that Churchill was right, but that wasn’t obvious in 1938. Churchill always wanted war, war and empire were the only consistent principles of his political career. And Churchill was by no means as popular with 1930’s voters as subsequent hagiography would have you believe. Many people, especially the working classes, hated the guy for his use of the army to break a miner’s strike.

  28. Pat is right – Chamberlain started re-armament without which we should have lost the Battle of Britain which was the turning point in WW2.
    Baldwin was to blame but it wasn’t as stupid of him as it now looks because he was afraif of losing a General Election to the pacifist Lansbury who would have let Hitler walk into London.

  29. Initial British public reaction to winning the Great War was very positive. The pacifist rejection was itself revisionism, not entirely coincidental with the rise of communism.

  30. PJF – Meh.

    Of course the public was happy to win the war. And, yes, intrawar pacifism was Communist inspired, up to a point. But only up to a point.

    The class-based caricatures of the war (eg BLACKADDER GOES FORTH, albeit that was largely affectionate) were largely bullshit an all. It’s rather annoying that the myth of uncaring upper class twits sending doughty working class boys to their deaths still persists – if anything, the posh boys sacrificed even more. Junior officers had an appalling casualty rate.

    But… revisionism is normal. It’s completely understandable that people change their opinion of traumatic experiences over time. (So the public was initially supportive of our recent adventure in Mesopotamia.)

    And… why did Communism become so much more attractive after the war? Because of the war, natch. Because it dealt a mortal blow, although we didn’t realise it for many years after, to the traditional structures and institutions of Western Civilization.

    What followed?

    A historically rapid destruction of the class system – we still have a class system, of course, but it’s no longer based on reciprocal loyalties and noblesse oblige. One of the reasons Parliament is now controlled by people who despise the British public.

    An experiment in mass voting that is very likely to bankrupt us before this century is out, assuming the British state can stay in business that long and doesn’t become a failed state thanks to migration.

    The death of God. Nietzsche rhetorically assassinated the Supreme Being in 1882, but it took a world war and 37 million deaths before atheistic materialism started to become the dominant meme among Western elites.

    So twenty years after emerging victorious from the Great War, it’s not surprising that Peace In Our Time was more popular than free jam. Even the Manchester Guardian, which was critical of the Munich Agreement, fretted about “the horrors that might have extinguished not only Czecho-Slovakia but the whole of Western civilisation”.

    You only worry about stuff like that once you’ve started to grasp the enormity of the damage the previous war did to Western civilisation.

    BTW, in reading the Guardian archives from October 1938 I was reminded of something I’d entirely forgotten: Poland also ganged up on Czechoslovakia at the time of the Munich Agreement, and annexed Teschen that month. What a mess! No wonder Chamberlain was hoping to keep us out of these European intrigues, it must’ve seemed as if Europe had turned into a madhouse.

    And, 80 years later, Theresa May thinks it’s a bloody clever plan to keep us ensnared in European politics forever, even as the Euro scene decoheres to levels of instability we haven’t seen since the 30’s. Farce following tragedy.

  31. If Tory MPs keep Theresa May after this, they will damn themselves, Daniel Hannan

    Every possible scenario that might follow the PM’s defeat requires a new leader

    The odd thing is not that 100 Conservative MPs might oppose Theresa May’s deal on Tuesday. It’s that 200-odd are supporting the wretched thing. How can a party that, for 300 years, aspired to put the nation before sectional interests, defend a treaty that leaves the United Kingdom torn, trammelled and trapped in a customs union that, unlike the EU itself, has no exit mechanism?

    The Withdrawal Agreement is the culmination of two years of needless blunders. Every time Theresa May had to make a choice on Brexit, she picked the wrong option. There was the premature triggering of Article 50 – not only before she had carried…[paywalled]

    The 200 is the important aspect along with:

    “There was the premature triggering of Article 50” – err, no – we should have left on day Leave won, then said: “We’re out, lwe want free trade of goods, capital and services – call us when you agree”

    Rest paywalled not important.

    .
    Another Minister Reigns

    …Mr Quince, a ministerial aide to Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson, hit out at the backstop plan to avoid a hard border with Ireland, saying it could result in the UK being “tied to the negotiating table for years, until we agree to anything in desperation” to get out of the situation…

  32. Even I have to have a nap now and then Pcar.

    If C4 are involved shite and treason go together. In fact–given the festive season –C4 should create a cocktail using those two ingredients. Call it–the “Sell out” –that’s my suggestion.

    Unless you out there have a better name for it?

  33. Poland had the largest standing army in the world in 1938.

    France had the most mechanized army in the world in 1938.

    Frankly, they didn’t need the British. The Brits could manage the seas with the best navy in the world in 1938.

    Chamberlain got 60,000,000 people killed. Celebrate him all you want. BTW, my opinion is the world’s opinion. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.

  34. Hitler’s early successes in the war did not come from superiority of arms, they came from superiority of tactics.

    Attacks from Poland and France would have put Germany in a defensive position. Not their forte. Not where their superior tactics using mobility could be used.

  35. @Bloke on M4 (1): May IS serious – she is totally serious about working to keep us in the EU, She’s nearly managed it, and may well actually manage it.

    @Blook on M4 (2): If there is another referendum, “Leave” will not be one of the options on offer.

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