Consider this

Political theorist Nancy Fraser has shown that with the rise of financialised capitalism, responsibility for care work has devolved almost completely onto families and communities.

When was, under which socieoeconmoic system ever, the responsibility for care work not centered upon the family and community?

Bueller?

58 comments on “Consider this

  1. ‘Care as the basis for a new progressive politics is perhaps most clearly articulated in Naomi Klein’s 2017 book, No Is Not Enough, where she describes her participation in a coalition of organisations, movements, academics and activists that came together and wrote the Leap Manifesto, a people’s platform.’

    Note that none of these actually help people. They are political, not charitable.

    ‘financialised capitalism’

    I wonder what that means.*

    *Not really.

  2. O/T –Forgive me.

    In light of Treason May’s latest antic , can those out there more savvy on the procedures answer me this.

    If the FFC is not going to have a vote on her turd until 21 Jan 2019–in the hope that will pressure her cowards to be so shit-feared by Project Fear 2.0 that they will vote her treason through–does not that also mean that she is blocking all the antics of the remainiac cunts as well? None of their shite schemes–cancellation, people’s wank, EFTA etc can advance until the vote –and if her cockrot is flushed away then there is no time left for anything other than a lovely “no deal” exit?

    Is that correct?

  3. Ecks,

    I don’t know the answer to that one – ie how long Parliament needs at the end to say “we’ll do y instead”, but one thing this treasonous bitch may well succeed in doing with this continued can kicking is further delay any sensible WTO planning.

    That might be enough to frighten enough of the incompetent numpties in there into supporting something / anything rather than WTO (at the end)?

    The Conservative Party can’t let this treachery go on – it’ll destroy them, they surely have to ditch this traitor, and NOW.

  4. Care was theoretically moved to the state in the Communist countries.

    In practice they happily took the young (pioneers, kindy, after-school care) so they could propagandise, and completely ignored the old and infirm. Modern western democracies do far, far better with our old people (voters) and less well with the young.

    The rest of her article is the same tired memes we get every year. Modern schools, despite being considerably less rigid get it in the neck for “teaching to the test”. She’s not actually done a comparison of course, she just knows that this will fly well. And yet teachers are generally lefty types — perhaps since they’re so bad we should try employing conservatives ones (who value actual knowledge rather than soft skills). This is a bed the Left have made, not the Right.

  5. Since Mr Ecks has hijacked the thread about Brexit, maybe I can ask a question of my own?

    If I understand correctly, no parliament can bind a future one. The backstop is binding, and parliament cannot exit it without EU approval. If any act of parliament with such a backstop was passed, what’s stopping it from being overturned in the courts?

    Sorry if this is the wrong place for the question.

  6. Raffles

    It’s an international treaty that is being signed? Parliament is simply providing May with the authority to sign it on the UK’s behalf. Then it’s done.

    Reneging or not (international law) is then a different matter entirely to the issue of whether Parliament might later consider that signing it might have been a good idea or not.

  7. Why is it called the ‘backstop’, anyway? Aside from being meaningless and unintellible. But perhaps I answer my own question.

  8. If I’ve understood correctly, future Parliaments are not bound, but if one were to renege then the WA states that the EU is permitted to apply sanctions.
    Which then leads into questions like, what sort of sanctions, what have they applied before, are they enforceable, and how bad can it be. While not ideal, if the likely sanction was any number less than £39bn over 7 years, and we paid it, then we still have a two-way improvement on the current offer. Less money being turned over and more freedom.

  9. Thank you, PF & Bongo.

    Wish the MSM would fill in more details rather than going straight to the opinion pieces 🙁

  10. Remainers have predictably been salivating all over the ECJ’s ruling this morning that the UK can “unilaterally” revoke Article 50. The notoriously slow-moving EU Court discovered a remarkable turn of speed to deliver their judgement just in time for it to land one day before the crucial parliamentary vote in the UK. Definitely not a political court…
    (eg:
    UK can cancel Brexit by unilaterally revoking Article 50)

    There’s just one problem – it’s not what the judgement actually says:

    “…the revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw must, first, be submitted in writing to the European Council and, secondly, be unequivocal and unconditional…”

    So it is not as simple as the UK simply telling the European Council it wants to withdraw Article 50 – the EU specifically reserves the power to rule on whether the UK’s notification is truly “unequivocal and unconditional”.

    Guido isn’t aware of any definitions of “unilateral” which include having to explicitly gain the approval of someone else. As ever, the ECJ marks its own homework to ensure that it always has the ultimate say over anything a member state can do…

    The bottom line is that Article 50 is not going to be withdrawn unless there is a government in place that is prepared to table an Act of Parliament to unequivocally revoke it, and a Parliament that is prepared to vote this through. Even in today’s heavily Remainer-loaded Parliament, this is simply not going to happen…

  11. @Bongo, December 10, 2018 at 9:59 pm

    Correct “future Parliaments are not bound”, but undoing is rare eg Climate Change Act not abolished.

    The Withdrawal Agreement is a legally binding International Treaty – if a future UK Gov’t leaves “illegally” it damages trust in UK Gov’t & Country.

    To do it “legally” we’d need to declare war on EU and win.

  12. One fantasises gently….

    [Warning: long and a fantasy…]

    So we undo A50, it is accepted, and we remain in the EU.

    Horrible though this is, it buys time to do the job properly – TruBrexit, if you like.

    Then, some folk with a useful mix of cojones, common sense, actual realism, and a few other rare attributes sit down and plan what a FU EU Brexit might look like. And put together a flexible (so it can deal with the usual unexpected complications) program for quitting the EU cleanly and properly – with sketched necessary legislation properly outlined and tested for legal soundness, and proper outlines of necessary economic acts needing to be done betwixt signing A50 a second timeand actual exit – and resuming contact with the real world.

    We remain in the EU for a period. During this time the Bad Side of the EU will be pretty visible (along with any good, but we will ignore that at least for the time being) sudden demands for funding the EU Army and dissolving our own; sending more money to the Gilets Jaunes, funding France’s nuclear rundown and incoherent ecological and economic programs; and funding Merkel’s (goodbye Angela, but looks like no big changes planned over there) inward immigration wave; along with all the other nonsense.

    And we emphasise that the EU is run by France and Germany – and look what a mess those places are.

    In 2-4 years the populace will be fairly pissed off with all this, during which time our dedicated team are running high quality blogs and publishing high quality (usefully inflammatory, but always rigidly factual) stuff to point at whence come the problems.

    Then at the appropriate point in the election cycle, do a Macron, forming a UK “En Marche” equivalent with the sole purpose of getting out of the EU.

    The strategy wouldn’t be like Macron, who formed a political party to become Pres. Our goal is to have a political machine in place to sing the praises for TruBrexit so loud and long that established political parties will want to sign up, along with the usual suspects in industry. No problem having candidates, but we’d also want folk in other parties – whenever possible – to sign on to the benefits of the TruBrexit Manifesto. We don’t need to form a government; we want whatever government is formed to do the dirty deed quickly and professionally, leveraging our homework.

    To make this outcome more probable, we would establish a “Friends of TruBrexit” Guild of Honour, using perhaps 70% of the money we can raise (from anyone – even publicising when it comes from Evil Sources, so there’s less chance of dirty trix attacks later) to provide GoH **Prizes** of good honest gelt to those who help in the plan. Of course, no Brexit, no gelt. And it should be a fair old whack of money, too – millions per prize, and lots of prizes.

    We would of course be happy to discuss the TruBrexit program with the EU. If they can show that doing some deal with them would increase the UK’s well-being (using our economic models and principles), we might even sign up to some things. But any discussions would be – lookit here, we know how it’s going to work out, and for us to change anything, **you** have to show how we benefit.

    Look, I know it won’t work. But it might – trouble is it’d require knowledge, cunning, skill and patience. And money.

  13. If we revoke article 50 what’s the bet it would be rewritten straight after to make things much more difficult

  14. BniC

    Well, there’s prolly hundreds of things that could be done to make exit by anyone much harder… And they’ll do them all. It’s not Brexit that scares them (they’d be glad to get rid of unwholesome “Anglo Saxons”) – it’s the example it sets for others. If the whole thang crumbles, they’re out of a job.

  15. Bloke in Tejas–Just no.

    Most have had enough of EU crap. No elaborate plans or 4 year fantasies. Out or–hopefully–civil unrest up to open war.

    I don’t think it will come to that. The remainiacs make a lot of noise but their best days are behind them now.

    If you want to ensure the EU is dead in the UK–then we get out but pick 10000 remainiac arseholes and impose whatever the Euro trash are up to on them . So tariffs gone for us but not the Fortunate Few (good name for them). Their economic level is held at the EU’s –so as the Empire’s fortune’s decline so will the FF’s. EU brings in Army conscription–then the FF’s kids (by special laws etc) get conscripted.. In 5-10 years they would be heading down as the rest of us rise. Too obviously so to explain away.

  16. Ecks

    I know, I know.

    I **said** it was a fantasy.

    FWIW I find Mr. Macron’s current problems a joy to behold – for us Brexiteers. For his countrymen it’s an effing disaster – and he’s much more competent than his predecessors, and much of what he’s done needed doing. But he’s still a Europhile and lackey of the ecoloons,

    If the high priests of the Euroclass can’t even arrange for traffic to get through roundabouts (which is the case) then why the should anyone think they’re capable of running a continent?

  17. So what is the current reckoning on May’s actions? I thought there might be a tiny sliver of a possibility that she was using this turd of a deal as a renegotiating tactic but the delay would only limit her options in that regard.

    So that would leave either she truly is stupid enough to believe her deal could win a vote or that she’s aiming to force things into another referendum? May certainly has done the most to earn her title as worst PM in living memory but it’s getting increasingly hard to understand why she wants to retain the role giving how utterly despised the end result (whatever it is) will leave her.

    BlokeInTejas

    It seems pointless to talk about how we’d seriously plan for leaving the EU if A50 is revoked, if that happens our politicians will never allow it in any form as they’ve done so much to prevent it from happening while under A50 proceedings.

    Should this opportunity be lost I cannot see any situation where our politicians take the UK out of the EU, even if a new party emerges and focuses solely on Brexit it would take many years of work to build them up to the point UKIP managed and all that achieved was getting Cameron to shit himself enough into offering a referendum whose result the majority of politicians have done their best to ignore or thwart.

  18. SimonB

    Stop introducing reality, dammit.

    But there again, Macron outflanked the mainstream parties from a standing start. He had the kind of advantage that no visible Brit politician has – implicit support of the Establishment, or at least some heavyweights. And I’m not aware of anyone in UK politics which could play a similar ploy.

    The “we” in my fantasy was a group dedicated to the work, not the ‘we’ of everybody together. And obviously there was explicit bribery for those who cooperated…

  19. I “hi-jacked” the thread in the hopes that those with more procedural knowledge could say if the FFC is or is not limiting the remain gangs possible scope for antics also?

    I take PF’s point that she is trying to frit her own gang with a ultimate “her coprolite or No Deal” scenario–but no one believes that Project Fear cockrot anyway not even her own shower of BluLab cowardly shite. It is only a pathetic attempt to justify the EU-sucking betrayal they favour anyway. But they could have done that sell out on Tuesday without another month+— had they the will. More time for more lies and more claims that the believe such obvious lies isn’t going to do it for them. It is a sham.

    She is a mental case and it seems that she is autistically determined to force her poison on the rest of us –no matter if the fucking world might end ( it won’t but she is that mental).

    My thought and question was that it seems to me she is leaving all the other would-be Brexit wreckers no time to pull any shit they might have been planning.

    Anyway–now is the time–write/email/tweet these bastards ten-fold. She thinks she has bought time for Project Fear. Except that her version of it is a busted flush. Our version –the absolute fucking wipeout and end of the Tory Party is not. Lets make scum cunts such as Morecambe Morris realise that unless he supports No Deal he is out on his arse in the cold, cruel world. Likely the Cold Cruel Corbyn-world. See how much peace accrues to the twat while he contemplates that prospect.

  20. “Then, some folk with a useful mix of cojones, common sense, actual realism, and a few other rare attributes sit down and plan what a FU EU Brexit might look like.”

    The leavers have had several years to do this and come up with nothing workable. Workable being some >WTO realpolitik that the EU will agree to. It was a mistake to believe that terms could be dictated and cherry-picked by the UK.

  21. Ecks, Remain need one of

    – revocation of Article 50 before 29 March
    – unanimous agreement of the EU27 to extend (for some specified period).

    There aren’t any other ways to remain.

    The latter is uncertain and probably too late to achieve

    The former has been ruled out by the current government, will not be done by the hard Brexit tories waiting in the wings, and also needs to pass the new “unequivocal and unconditional” test. If the UK does revoke I am sure there will be legal challenges on that basis, probably from the hard Brexit tories.

    It seems the only way to achieve remain would be another referendum, general election, or a new government of some shape that’s actually prepared to revoke Article 50 and survive the inevitable legal challenges.

  22. BiG

    “The leavers have had several years to do this and come up with nothing workable. ”

    And we all know that that is simply not true.

    David Davis had pulled together a negotiation based on the Canada + proposal that the EU themselves had proposed to us.

    All that was needed (materially) would have been a bit of movement on Ireland, which we all know is nothing more than a bit of student politics (but which May is too retarded to understand).

    The treasonous bitch torpedoed him at the last minute (remember Chequers!) and replaced it with her own load of treacherous bollocks.

    I’m not arguing the merits of the Davis proposal, but please don’t keep coming out with the line that “Leavers have nothing better” – you surely know that’s nonsense?

  23. No, I actually hadn’t heard of Davis’ proposal. You would be amazed how little airtime Brexit takes up on the continent (this week being a notable exception).

    I don’t think it helps that Davis is not prominent among the leavers. Certainly Nigel, Boris &co., the people attracting all the attention, had no concrete plans underneath the leave referendum campaign, just the usual vague promises, and strident, stiff-upper-lip “taking back sovereignty”, “taking control of our money”-type claptrap.

    Ireland is more than just student politics.

    For sure it’s the EU demanding control of goods across the border, but the UK will also need that (I don’t believe the unilateral free-trade libertarian dream will ever happen), and more importantly needs a hard border somewhere to stop freedom of movement.

    Since Ireland is not going to police entry of EU nationals, that border can only be between the Republic and the North, or in the Irish Sea. Maybe there is a tech solution to the (EU-driven) demand for control of goods, but there is no such obvious solution to the (UK-driven) demand for control of people.

    And yes, various hard-liners in both south and north already see this as a reunification lever.

  24. Bollocks to ALL the fucking EU’s demands Biggie.

    Never mind any of that “cherrypicking” remainiac cockrot. We should have told the fuckers how it would go from the start– not looked for “deals”. Let them send their EU army if they don’t like it.

    NI is literally fuck-nothing codded up by the EU and treasonous UK SCS scum. Solution–the border on our side stays as it is –the Irish can do as they like –or as their EU masters tell them. All those people who died over the decades –so Ireland can suck the EU’s dick. Tragic indeed.

    As for borders–I WANT billions–hundreds of billions preferably– of quids worth of cheaper goods to be smuggled into the putrid EU via the NI border. Both sides of Border folk will get rich and it will do massive undermining damage to the ESpew. Never mind No Deal preparations–we should be making VAT abolition preparations as well.

    Wrong as ever Biggie–at least you are consistent. And yes we will leave March 2019–but not with May’s millstone or her fat arse hanging around our neck.

  25. BiG

    You really are completely out of the loop! OK, if it helps:

    I don’t think it helps that Davis is not prominent among the leavers.

    He was Secretary of State for Departing the European Uniion (or whatever the title was) at the time! He was the the most senior minister tasked by Government with the negotiation. “Low profile” is just nonsense!

    For sure it’s the EU demanding control of goods across the border, but the UK will also need that (I don’t believe the unilateral free-trade libertarian dream will ever happen),

    Nothing to do with libertarian dreams, it’s to do with technology, suppliers declaring (like they do already with VAT), spot checks, inside borders, and lots more. I don’t believe there was any hard border with the Republic prior to 1973. This is real, unlike the politics.

    and more importantly needs a hard border somewhere to stop freedom of movement.

    but there is no such obvious solution to the (UK-driven) demand for control of people.

    Interesting. I can’t believe you don’t know this already, as it’s been mentioned on here often enough in the past?

    The “British Isles” are not part of Schengen and “are” part of the Common Travel Area. It should be no easier for a Somali 30 10 year old to get from Le Havre to Cork as from Calais to Dover. You do know about the CTA (our own British Isles version of Schengen) and which dates back to Irish independence. And which is why Eire, had it had been minded, would have had to choose between Schengen and the CTA… The British Isles hard border (for people) is at Cork, Dublin, Dover, etc, and always has been. Those of the Irish Republic don’t need their passports to enter the UK, be that within Ireland or across the Irish Sea..;)

    And yes, various hard-liners in both south and north already see this as a reunification lever.

    A few hardliners at most. The rest of the Irish, north and south, know that it’s complete and utter bollocks.

    Apols in advance for typos..

  26. BiG

    “Since Ireland is not going to police entry of EU nationals”

    As PF has pointed out, inter allia, they already do; not being members of Schengen.

  27. And in case you are thinking hard border for Euro citizens or others where we don’t ask for visas, it’s no different to now. They’ll simply land at Gatwick / City, and show their passport before heading for their meeting / holiday / whatever, rather than secretly traipse off via Ireland – lol..!!

  28. “We should have told the fuckers how it would go from the start– not looked for “deals”. ”

    That’s a pretty reasonable attitude, but it means you have no control over what the EU does in return. I don’t believe for a moment that this is the best of all possible deals from the UK’s perspective, but it is the one on the table and I think unlikely to change substantially in the next 4 months.

    Yes, I know about the CTA, and it is your problem. You want to “take back control of our borders”. And that means to stop eurowogs (not just Somalis) coming in you need a hard border, policed on the British site by British immigration officers in Ireland.

    Customs is irrelevant in the event of a libertarian free-trading dreamland.

    PF, the entry requirements for Euro citizens will have to change if you are to actually “take back control” of the borders.

  29. Recusant, Ireland will never* stop an EU national entering the Republic. But Britain will need to be able to stop them entering the UK, if it is to “take back control of its borders”.

    *: For everyday values of “never”

  30. When was, under which socieoeconmoic system ever, the responsibility for care work not centered upon the family and community?

    Pol Pot’s Democratic Kampuchea comes to mind.

  31. BiG

    PF, the entry requirements for Euro citizens will have to change if you are to actually “take back control” of the borders.

    Recusant, Ireland will never* stop an EU national entering the Republic. But Britain will need to be able to stop them entering the UK, if it is to “take back control of its borders”.

    Not at the border in any material way. Was never thus.

    Ie, no one suggested that Brexit (or “take back control of its borders”) meant stopping people (such as EU nationals) crossing borders.

    At most, for some of us (#), it meant with regard to having the right to work.

    And if you want to work in the UK, whether you are British, EU or other, your employer is obliged to check that you have the right to work in the UK. if they don’t check, and are found guilty, there are substantial fines involved. So employers do check (yes, really).

    If you understand that, then you’ll realise that your post above about hard people borders is simply missing the reality.

    # – For most of us (that voted Leave, and yes this is backed up by the analysis), it was obvious that things like benefits could control the work angle on borders. Or even, if it’s an issue with big differences in GDP/capita, maybe a foreigner’s employment tax. Or more. And there are other issues like “permanent” residence. But that’s all utterly irrelevant to the “controls at borders for EU nationals” issue.

    Ie, a dodgy Romanian can come on holiday to the UK, and then illegally work, or traipse via Ireland. The “crossing border” bit is irrelevant (for an EU national).

  32. So, post-Brexit, >300 million people will have the right to enter the UK with no further checks, no effective limit on the duration of stay, no exit checks to even survey if people are being compliant with the rules, but will not have the right to work.

    And that will not result in substantial illegal migration, including working?

    Who, precisely, is missing the reality here? It will be curtains the minute the Sunderland brexiteers whose jobs were all supposedly stolen by Poles get wind of this plan.

  33. BiG

    As to Macron, he has two faces. One is the only French prez in living memory to not only identify serious structural problems in France and promise to do something about them as part of his election platform, and then to actually start on them and stick to them when elected. This is good.

    The other is his idiot belief in “Europe”, where he appears further to see himself as The Man, naturally on a Path to Be Emperor. And his ridiculous ‘eco’ nonsense – appointing that idiot Hulot as the single most important interior minister, for example.

    But for Macron to become Emperor of Europe, Germany must support him. This seems unlikely.

  34. BiG

    Lots of people have the ability legally to enter the UK. We don’t generally stop legitimate visitors at borders. Honestly, we don’t. You already know that. Travellers from Europe have mostly been legitimate visitors.

    No one said no effective limit on duration of stay. That’s a straw man with regard to the “controlling at border” issue. We now check “in and out” date stamps (partially!) on the computer, but never used to. The Irish and UK use the same border processes (we share practices under the CTA) and we share data / intel with them.

    There are and were other ways to deal with undocumented “permanance”. If you don’t understand that, try to think back to prior to the EU? Or even now with non EU states that we can reasonably freely wander in and out of?

    Illegal immigration is err illegal. Another straw man I’m afraid. Unless you are inferring that lots of Sunderland jobs are currently held by illegals? No, I didn’t think so. That is not going to change, when employers can get heavily fined for hiring illegals.

    The bottom line here is that “materially” (and I assume you know what that means), hard people borders with regard to Eire and the CTA are not an issue. If someone wants to “move” to the UK – invisibly, ie self supported, without work, benefits or anything – they’ll “visit” via Dover, rather than faff with the extra cost / effort via the Republic. Coming over in a car? Whether it is Dover / Holyhead (or Dublin / Cork), we (or the Irish) are moinitoring it already.

    “300 million”. The issue here, try to remember (to stop you introducing any more straw men), is not about 300 million legally able to visit, it’s about whether the detour via Ireland provides – in genuine terms, given that we share intel with the Irish – a different opportunity scenario that completely changes everything as a result of not having a hard people border in the middle of Ireland. Hint: it doesn’t. That’s the point I was making above. There really is already a lot of quiet monitoring going on (whatever the politics / rhetoric) both “into” the British Isles and “across” the British Isles (including the Irish Sea), by both the UK and Eire authorities.

    Perhaps try to understand more about the current 21st century reality of that, before suggesting that the mid Ireland poeple border is some sort of real issue / deal breaker (as you did above)?

    Oh, and if Eire did want to bail of the CTA, yes, then I’m with you 100%, that’s a game changer. But they won’t..:)

  35. Don’t compound stupidity with more stupidity Biggie–you just make yourself out a fool.

    With the UK’s polipig scum as it is–something else that is going to change after Brexit–none of them give a shite about borders or anything that impedes their mass replacement plan. If the fucking EU was so great your adopted dump would not be swarming with imported beards. The idea that millions of our dear Dindu buddies are going to rush cross country into Belfast is a joke. With the will the security forces will be able to pick ’em up easy. Barr them from ever being legal and deport them back to shithole of origin. If the billion Africans start to try their luck –then much worse may be needed.

    Third world aside–and removing benefits will also help–why should the rest of Europe –who are going to be in Paradise compared to us so remainiac trash say–want to come to this soon-to-be-ruined backwater anyway.

    That gives the lie to EU bollocks. If we are headed for ruin they should have sent us on our way quick so that the others would be “encouraged” by our awful fate. Bullshit.

    They fear the prosperity we will gain. They want our money and they know that outside their evil empire we will prosper and their shite kingdom will be seen for what it is by millions more of those they are trying to lord it over.

  36. I don’t believe for a second that the UK is any good at knowing who has left the country. Formal exit checks were abolished many years ago. Every day, hundreds of buses go back and forth through Dover with only cursory, if any, checks on who is going out.

    What happens if I enter the country on my German passport, and put my British passport details in the airline’s check-in system (which presumably is connected to the Home Office’s girt big database on entries and exits) on the way out? How will my entry and exit be reconclied? Do I risk being detained at some point for “overstaying”?

    The Irish border is a much bigger problem than you think, because Europeans can enter Ireland without a second thought, but must no longer be able to enter the UK without a second thought. If you really want to “take back control” of your borders, that is.

  37. Ecks, believe it or not, I am as aghast at Merkel’s million Muslim men as you are. The fact is that borders within Europe are not functional at stopping people moving around. All that effort we have saved on checking holidaymakers between France and Spain has to be redeployed, forcibly, to the Meditterranean.

    We have proof that it can work – at the Hungarian-Balkan fence, in Bulgaria, even to some extent at the hunrdeds of little Greek islands within spitting distance of the Turkish shoreline.

    We need to make the Med border far more hostile to illegal immigrants, because there is no practical way of stopping people moving around once in Europe*. We can’t do that as individual countries. So you can now sit outside and watch as the tide turns here on the continent, and the EU once again supports the “fortress Europe” concept, as it did in the not-too-distant past.

    *: Even Israel, with the tallest fences and most thorough immigration regime on the planet, has a problem with illegal immigration. If they do, we will always have some. But we need to elect politicians committed to making it a smaller problem. Vide: Hungary, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, recent elections in Spain, etc.

  38. @BiG

    “WTO realpolitik that the EU will agree to. “

    If we leave and trade is wto, we do not need EU agreement.

    @PF is correct – Davis shafted. Leave eg ERG have draufted detailed costed proposals, msm give no coverage. May et al won’t read or consider them.

  39. BiG

    “How will my entry and exit be reconclied? Do I risk being detained at some point for “overstaying”?”

    FFS, of course not.

    Apart from the obvious retort of “how can a Brit overstay in Britain”, you are being far too simple / literal as I tried to explain above? If you can’t follow the bigger picture of what I am saying, then – as I can’t be arsed to keep repeating / explaining it – we are probably simply both of us wasting each other’s time, and perhaps best to move on.

  40. “If you really want to ‘take back control’ of your borders, that is.”

    Taking back control of our borders is as simple as it being down to us to decide who and what comes across, rather than the EU deciding for us.

    We can, if we so choose, still let all and sundry across.

  41. “If we leave and trade is wto, we do not need EU agreement.”

    True, but beyond the entire half-dozen “hard Brexit at any cost” votes (Boris, Rees-Mogg, and co-conspirators), everyone else seems to think that is the worst case scenario. Everyone wants >WTO, as my post that you took out of context, stated.

    Look, I actually agree that the UK should do a disorganised, hard Brexit, but for very different reasons than you do.

    PJF, you can’t decide “who comes across” until you have a hard border in Ireland. You are reliant on the goodwill and ability of Ireland to record who is entering Ireland. A republican-leaning regime there could, and probably will, change everything.

  42. “Apart from the obvious retort of “how can a Brit overstay in Britain”,”

    True story dis:

    Many years ago, BiG arrives at the tunnel, in his German-registered motor vehicle.

    British immigration goon, female, with, I presume, 5 recently-obtained GCSEs at Grade A-C, leans into car, with BiG’s British passport in her hand. “Where are you going?”

    BiG: “Kenton”.

    Goon: “Where’s that?”

    BiG: “North-West London.”

    Goon: “Kent’s not in London. Where are you from? How long are you staying?”

    BiG: “Please refer to the front page, where Her Majesty says something about let and hindrances”.

    Goon: “Do you have a return ticket?”

    BiG: “Yes”.

    Goon: “Good”.

    If you are reliant on these people to protect the British frontier against wogs and eurowogs, you have a serious problem.

  43. @ BIT (they’d be glad to get rid of unwholesome “Anglo Saxons”) – they’ll be sad.The Germans and the French quite correctly regard us as their cousins.

    Even so, sad, upset and hurt as they certainly will be, they may well lash out viciously as their parting shot.

  44. “You are reliant on the goodwill and ability of Ireland to record who is entering Ireland. A republican-leaning regime there could, and probably will, change everything.”

    The EU and Ireland are terrified of the border – that’s why they’re posturing on it. We can easily make serious smuggling go in their direction. Irish border cooperation is one of the easiest Brexit fixes there is, if only our Humperdoos realised what a strong hand we have.

    Indeed, adjustment inconveniences aside, leaving the EU gives us a strong hand all around. That’s why the EU is bluffing so hard. The only thing holding us back is our own treasonous, numbnut, fuckwit establishment.

    A Trump quality leader would have announced (and meant) that we were leaving promptly with no deal, but that we were happy to proceed with negotiating mutually beneficial arrangements as soon as the EU liked. At the first sign of intransigence – 5 points off corporation tax. It’d pretty much be done by now.

  45. Given the will the beards are easily stoppable.

    As for those who might pass as native you still have no answer as to why 300 million or any lesser number thereof Europeans should want to come here at all given the economic etc, doom we are supposedly heading for. Unless you are acknowledging that we are in fact going to be far better off outside the ESpews baleful socialistic and tyrannical influence.

    BTW “True, but beyond the entire half-dozen “hard Brexit at any cost” votes (Boris, Rees-Mogg, and co-conspirators), everyone else seems to think that is the worst case scenario. Everyone wants >WTO, as my post that you took out of context, stated. ”

    Absolutely false to a massive degree. The scum in the Westminister Public Bog may have such beliefs but it is being impressed on those cunts how very fucking thin is the ice they are skating on.

  46. Since the government can’t find it’s way out of a paper bag, what exactly is going to change in regulatory terms that there could be worthwhile smuggling? You are labouring under the impression that the British government is going to suddenly develop a degree of competence hitherto unforeseen, and that things are going to be changed much by Brexit.

  47. @Mr Ecks, December 12, 2018 at 12:37 am

    Correct. Every Brexiter I know (in Eng, Scot, NI) is happy with going WTO free trade.

    Politicians and msm still banging on about “support agreement, means end of free movement” as in their group-think world that’s all the deplorable xenophobe racist Brexiters want.

    .
    Voters Want MPs to Reject the Deal by More Than 2 to 1

    MPs will be getting the chance to vote on Theresa May’s Brexit deal… at some point within the next six weeks according to her spokesman, who has confirmed that the vote will be held before January 21. Of course, her spokesman was insisting 24 hours ago that the vote was going ahead today…

    Had MPs been able to vote the deal down today as expected, the British public would have been behind them. The latest Lord Ashcroft poll found voters against the deal by more than a margin of 2 to 1, with 53% in favour of MPs voting to “reject the Brexit agreement even if it is not clear what the outcome would then be” compared to only 24% in favour of MPs voting to “accept the Brexit agreement as an imperfect compromise and move on to other issues”.

    Opposition to the deal has grown in the three weeks since Ashcroft first asked the question, with a 9% swing against the deal. Voters aren’t falling for May’s strategy of boring them into backing the deal…

    Voters’ responses to what they considered the most important Brexit outcomes were also very revealing. The most important outcome among Leave and Remain voters combined was “the UK being able to do its own free trade deals with countries outside the EU”, ahead of “continuing to trade freely with EU countries with no tariffs or customs checks”. May’s approach has been the other way round…

    Both Tory and Labour Leave voters agreed that the most important issue was “the UK making all its own laws and no longer being subject to rulings from the European Court of Justice” – ending free movement was only ranked as the fifth most important issue.

    Once again proving the Remainer narrative wrong that the Leave vote was nothing more than a small-minded backlash against immigration…

    Trust in May and anything she “Believes is right for UK” is negative in polls. Useless bureaucrat, not a leader.

  48. @BiG

    Why do you think UK should leave and go WTO
    ? With/without unilateral free trade?

    Immigration goon sounds typical, stupid cow shouldn’t ask questions where answer likely to somewhere she’s not heard of.

    Where are you going? Toaster

  49. Pcar,

    First, I trust that the Brexiciders here will honour and get behind 100% the result of the democratic ballot held this evening. The confidence vote in the PM is a landslide compared to the brexit vote, so I know I can be sure of all the leavers honouring it!

    To answer your question, because the deal on offer is worse long-term than either staying or leaving properly. It was always going to be thus. And because I am a euromaniac, because the self-inflicted pain short-term of going no-deal now is going to be truly immense, and that will discourage anyone else from being so stupid in future.

    Just for clarity, I also dream of a world without meaningful trade barriers, without the hijacking of trade by governments or supranational agencies like the EU as a power tool. But we really aren’t anywhere close yet. The EU, like your parish council, like any level of government above you as the individual, should exercise only the power and sovereignty which is appropriate and which maximises your freedom without impinging on the freedom of others. If you think that granting more power to the clowns of Westminster will increase your personal freedoms, and will roll back the frontiers of the state, I fear you have a big shock coming.

  50. @BiG

    Thanks.

    On last point, I live in hope that once “It’s EU” excuse gone, UK politicians will have to be more sensible and accountable. In EU, UK politicians have power, but no responsibility and/or accountability.

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