Twat at The Guardian alert

We would not expect a pub landlord to charge people different prices based on income, with a pint of beer costing some 20p and others £20. Even if such a system might be theoretically perfectly fair, we would recognise the almighty mess it would cause in practice.

They do and always have. Saloon bar was always more expensive than the public. And that’s before we even get to the difference in prices across pubs, some being expensive precisely to keep the riff raff out.

What would these people do if The Guardian wasn’t willing to pay them, eh?

34 comments on “Twat at The Guardian alert

  1. ‘equality helps everyone’

    The Extreme Left doesn’t care about equality. They speak of it because YOU care.

  2. They do and always have.

    Not so – the different pricing is not based on the customer’s income but on the customer’s choices, as with everything.

  3. However, our collective discussion of class and wealth is so muddled that we often find this kind of argument being rehashed without a second thought.

    These arguments are usually perfectly fine for the author and his readers, except for the cases when they realise they are personally affected – then Lo! the scales fall from their eyes and they manage to spot the childish fallacies and ludicrous lies immediately.

    Just like when they markets don’t work and are a myth, but are always happy to take the highest offer when they sell their house.

  4. Their definition of a wealthy _household_ is £40k a year?

    Isn’t that still below the 40% tax threshold? That’s ‘wealthy’?

    Always remember the Kulaks when you hear the Left talking about wealth -it is, and always has been, a relative thing and can be set at any arbitrary level to suit the politics of the moment.

  5. Seems to me that he is making a case for a flat tax. Why indeed should we pay different rates for the same government services (I’m ignoring the fact that some get more from the government than others)?

  6. The absence of a twat in the Guardian would be worthy of comment …

    I don’t know about rail fares – but I do know about the congestion charge. I’d hope that Sadiq’s banditry expansion resulys in a revolt.

  7. I would not be so hasty to condemn this guy =- he inadvertently reveals the key fallacy in the thinking of the Hard Left, and one which may be their undoing:

    ‘Would making trains cheaper benefit the wealthy? Yes – but before the NHS or comprehensive free education you could have made exactly the same argument about them. These things are unmitigated goods for everyone in our society, and disposing of them now because “the middle class can afford to pay their own way” would be recognised as absurd.’

    I am not sure the recipients of NHS care in Mid – Staffs or the products of some sink secondary comprehensive necessarily view these things as ‘unmitigated goods’ and they are a direct corollary of the attempts to standardise services across the board for everyone.

    ‘Those who struggle to see why making things cheap or free benefits everybody tend to be stuck in a way of thinking which should have been long discarded. They believe that things are basically OK and that the system only needs a few tweaks – generally because they are in the shrinking demographic for which things are, indeed, basically OK.’

    An echo of ‘Tomorrow belongs to me’ in that statement – certainly again gives credence to the idea that the secret ballot should ideally be removed and anyone voting for a Labour or Green candidate needs to be sent on a plane to North Korea one way to see the end game of this type of thinking…..

  8. Another 5 watt bulb. Phil shows the origin of the phrase “sill old McDuffer”.

    DocBud highlights that the wankerphil is protesting all that’s dear to him.

  9. “anyone voting for a Labour or Green candidate needs to be sent on a plane to North Korea one way to see the end game of this type of thinking…..”
    +1
    or Venezuela even

    Elsewhere Sky News (cough, spit) seem to be lining up with the Health Nazis –

    “use anti-tobacco tactics in obesity war” – says “senior researcher” (One Eustace De Sousa, the national lead for children at Public Health England)

  10. Do “saloon bars” still exist? I’ve only come across them in old books.

    Would making trains cheaper benefit the wealthy? Yes – but before the NHS or comprehensive free education you could have made exactly the same argument about them.

    There’s a huge difference between making trains cheaper and making them free. I shudder to think what free trains would be like. “Sorry, the waiting list for a space on the 7:24 is very long. You’ll have to take a bus for a few months while you wait for someone else to retire or die.” And if you think the toilets are filthy now…

  11. tomo

    On this particular type of thinking I tend to go with NK rather than Venezuela. obviously as part of the countermeasures to socialism advocated by Mr. Ecks and others more generally those subject to a Corbynite/ Green Tax of an additional 20% across the board would be offered a free flight one way (I’d probably add in Zimbabwe, Eritrea and Cuba as options) but for this specific ideology where basically you can only have one thing NK is the only country like that in the world. I think in all the other 4 you can get alternative provision if you pay….

  12. “Seems to me that he is making a case for a flat tax.”

    Indeed. Its not often that the Guardian makes the case everyone paying the same regardless of income……

    And thats not forgetting that every time someone suggests income tax cuts the likes of the Guardian scream ‘But it helps the rich most!’.

  13. “anyone voting for a Labour or Green candidate needs to be sent on a plane to North Korea one way to see the end game of this type of thinking…..”
    +2

    I’m also very much on board with the idea that any Labour, SD or Green Party member should have an income tax of >80% to fund all the lovely government they want forced on the country.

  14. Van_Patten

    mild attack of pedantry … add in Turkmenistan – on the basis that it’s North Korea – but they won the gas lottery,

  15. I used to go to a small cafe bar in italy. My friend and i found out that Peroni in a tin was 1/3 rd the price of draught Peroni. They give you the tin and a smaller glass. So you have to leave the tin on the table or bar. Never saw an Italian patron buy the tin. Never really saw them have more than two either. We thought it very amusing and inexplicable but yeah now its easy to see straight up price discrimination.

  16. generally because they are in the shrinking demographic for which things are, indeed, basically OK

    Things are basically OK or better than OK for a huge demographic – what has changed is the definition of ‘OK’. It is a standard of living which our parent’s generation would have hoped for and our grandparent’s generation would barely believe.

  17. “I shudder to think what free trains would be like”: I know. There used to be a free bus in Auckland. When we tried to board it it was full up – of fucking students, just the people who should have been walking or cycling anyway.

  18. Tomo

    The main tour operator to NK also runs a tour to Turkmenistan so would certainly be an option – For Richard Murphy given he probably wants to name months of the year after himself and things like the Fair Tax Mark and Green New Deal,Turkmenistan could be a strong possibility

    Definitely not pendantry – the idea needs to be sold to as many people as possible

  19. “I’m also very much on board with the idea that any Labour, SD or Green Party member should have an income tax of >80% to fund all the lovely government they want forced on the country.”

    I keep saying the Tories are missing a massive trick – the first thing they should do on entering office is implement a voluntary tax system with higher rates across the board that you can opt into (for the life of the Parliament say) and then say to all their political opponents ‘If you want higher taxes on everyone, you sign up first’. It would shut up vast swathes of middle class Leftists – they are often well paid and would never put their own money where their mouths are. I’d make the register public too, so we can see exactly who is prepared to walk the walk.

  20. I’m fairly certain that if the government restricted the number of pubs in an area AND the rate at which those pubs could serve drinks AND legislated that all working age adults had to drink X pints a day AND limited the hours that 80% of them could drink those pints pub landlords could charge £20 a pint at certain times of the day.

    And what’s more the beer would be lousy.

    As I’ve said on here before, my father was a pub landlord in the late ’60s and ’70s and he always said he wished the government would nationalise pubs, then he could sell the worst pint in town. This was in Labour supporting areas and its amazing how many people looked at him quizzically.

  21. Margaret Thatcher’s Community Charge was based on the same principle: that, with a progressive tax regime, people shouldn’t be charged differently, according to income, for the same goods and services. Good to see The Guardian finally in agreement.

  22. Jim – spot on.

    They could also make the higher tax rates hypothecated, so people opting for them could specify what they were to support.

  23. Sorry, why is the definition of a wealthy household an income figure?

    Surely you would look at wealth, not income.

    Pensioner on £650 pension a month isn’t on high income, they may have 50% shares in a business with assets valued at a few million – a landlord company perhaps.
    They are wealthy – the value of the shares is high. They don’t have high income.

    At the other end of the scale a guy on £40k income with a £120k mortgage on a £130k house, leased car and has a wife and 2 kids is probably could not be said to have wealth. Debt yes, not wealth.

  24. dearieme – why should students have been walking or cycling anyway?
    Is it common for students in your area to avoid buses?

    I went to a uni 10 miles away, I got a bus if I went one route, two buses if I went another route. Term time bus pass meant the trips were all free to me.

    The worst bus to catch was the pensioner express, the bus that was travelling at 9.30 when the pensioners could catch it. Dozens would try for 10 minutes prior to use their pass early and get refused unless they pay – annoying them but they’d try the same thing the following day at the same time – and from 9.30 onwards the downstairs would fill up with pensioners. Who all had to catch that first bus that’s free for them.
    The looks I got for not giving up my seat and going upstairs – and met a LOT of men and women who fought in the war. While babies. Doesn’t generate a lot of respect when 70 year olds try it on these days.
    The pensioners used to complain about the students on the bus too – hey we needed to travel in to uni.

  25. “expecting each individual transaction to be egalitarian and are overlooking the costs of doing so”

    Yeah, and simply assuming it isn’t makes you A Marxist Chris. Similarly assuming you know that a price change will alter behaviour and by how much makes you James O’Brien. Yes it does Chris.

  26. ‘Of course in a system with limited resources we should prioritise access to those resources for those who need them the most.’

    Ahhh, yes, only government can manage scarcity fairly.

    Jimmy Carter campaigned on that in 1980.

    Ronald Reagan said, “Screw that. We’re America, we’ll just make more.”

    Reagan won in a landslide.

  27. Don’t be so hard on the guy, he’s only regurgitating a typically clueless essay by Chris Dillow, the economist with a beam the size of London Bridge stuck through his mind

  28. @ Martin
    Quite agree: I’m wealthy because I’ve got an inflation-linked (more or less) pension and a house with no mortgage so I do not need to worry abount money – isn’t the definition of wealth, not needing to worry about money?
    As to commuting – dearieme doesn’t understand your problem. When I was an undergraduate I tried cycling to lectures but found it was quicker to walk (getting the bike from bike shed, crosing the High, parking and getting from bke shed to lecture room outweighed the greater speed while cycling) so thereafter walked. dearieme has been at at a couple of slightly younger and inferior universities but both were suited to walking to lectures.

  29. “Would making trains cheaper benefit the wealthy? Yes – but before the NHS or comprehensive free education you could have made exactly the same argument about them.”

    Those are basic universal services. Rail isn’t. It’s the least popular form of transport, you muppet. Few people have to travel by train, and those that do get paid more because of it.

    And this isn’t just about the tiny percentage that take the train, it’s specifically about people commuting to London by train. The Swindon to Bristol Temple Meads service costs about as much in petrol and parking, let alone car running costs. It’s a good price. Travelling to London off peak is kinda reasonable too.

    The MSM go overboard on rail because they all commute in and want their travel subsidised. They can go fuck themselves.

  30. @BoM4

    On top of that I’m not even sure what they want. Subsidise the tickets so they’re dead cheap, then find you can’t even get on to stand? I can totally sympathise with wanting the trains to run reliably and on time. But when much of the network is running close to capacity, simultaneously grouching about prices and crowding is one of those “you gotta pick one from two” things. Bearing in mind the prices of alternative modes for many journeys, most rail tickets seem pretty reasonable. And given the state of rush hour traffic, the 4-wheeled alternatives (bus or car) might not even be so much better on the reliability front, in many cases.

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