Well, yes, this is a problem

Martina Navratilova, the nine-times Wimbledon singles champion, has attacked the “insane” practice of allowing male-born transgender athletes to compete against biological women.

Writing for The Sunday Times, Navratilova describes it as “cheating”, saying that hundreds of trans athletes have “achieved honours as women that were beyond their capabilities as men”.

She adds: “It is surely unfair on women who have to compete against people who, biologically, are still men. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her.”

As PJ O’Rourke put it on a slightly different matter there are times when these things are important – making babies – and times when they are not – trading bonds.

Now all we’ve got to do is work out which is which?

So, how stand we all?

Ever the peacemaker, I promised to keep quiet on the subject until I had properly researched it.

Well, I’ve now done that and, if anything, my views have strengthened. To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires. It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair.

87 comments on “Well, yes, this is a problem

  1. I hope Martina emailed that in from a country without an extradition treaty to the UK. Half the police forces in the country have cancelled all leave. Cobra has been summoned. She is so fucked!

  2. I can’t think of a better way to reduce female participation in sport than to allow men pretending to be women to beat them up and win everything.

    Progressive and just! Let’s arrest anyone who disagrees with it.

  3. Oh no, you sent out the NiV Signal! It’s like the Bat Signal, but instead you get a creepy obsessive do-gooder who….

    Wait. That’s just like the Bat Signal!

  4. She can get away with it because she is a lesbian and therefore has a special pass in these debates.

    Plus she’s a bloke.

  5. We must accept NO transgender bullshit whatsoever. NONE. Because it serves the cause of Marxist evil.

    Even the author of the article says she will call them what they want. NO.

    George Orwell understood and said that freedom is the freedom to say that two and two make four. With that all else follows. Which is exactly why Marxist shite want to jail you if you refuse to call men women and women men,

    This issue is of the utmost importance. It is not merely laughter-making leftist foolery. It is an attack on the very foundations of Western life and science.

  6. JuliaM – Oh no, you sent out the NiV Signal! It’s like the Bat Signal

    Probably looks like a silhouetted feminine penis tho.

    DJ – We’re about to learn if Trannie > Lesbo in Victimhood Top Trumps.

    We already know that trannies outrank dykes, see: the Labour Party appointing a guy called “Lily Allen” (or whatever) its womyn’s officer and expelling recalcitrant rugmunchers who complained that he has a dick.

    Also, I’m pretty sure Plod doesn’t routinely harass people who disagree with Sandi Toksvig on the internet.

    That’s the thing about lezzers, they may be sour-faced, sideburned, man-haters, but apart from rote feminist whingeing (which should just be politely ignored) they pretty much want to be left alone to enjoy Sapphic Doritos Night and Indigo Girls CD’s.

    Whereas the troons create endless drama, because they’re mentally ill blokes who need constant attention and validation to feed their autogynephile fetish. So the cops have been told to dox people who fall afoul of the genderspazzed because “social cohesion”, but diversity in general and sexual anarchy in particular destroys social capital, and no amount of state repression can change that.

    Polymorphous perversity has a built-in shelf life, though, because we literally can’t live with it for very long (see: birth rates).

    Basically we’re at the part in ‘Cabaret’ where all the weirdos are capering and cavorting, right before the blond kid decides he’s had enough and that tomorrow belongs to him.

  7. We’ve had years and years of people pretending that female or disabled athletes are as good as men. Clearly, it’s total bollocks or they wouldn’t be separate (and where they’re equal, like showjumping, they compete together).

    That’s going to change the sort of people working in the machine. Over time, you’re going to weed out people with a rational perspective on these matters in favour of SJW types who see oppression everywhere. They aren’t going to stop at women and disabled athletes.

    So, you fucking built this. Suck it up.

  8. “That’s the thing about lezzers, they may be sour-faced, sideburned, man-haters, but apart from rote feminist whingeing (which should just be politely ignored) they pretty much want to be left alone to enjoy Sapphic Doritos Night and Indigo Girls CD’s.”

    I’ve generally got on better with lesbians I’ve worked with more than with feminists. Because that whole “doing the same things guys like doing” often doesn’t end at eating pussy. Most women in programming treat it as a job, not a craft. They don’t get their noodle lit up by doing it, or finding out new things about it. But lesbians can be quite hardcore techies.

  9. If it ain’t fair will the women who won equal prize money at Wimbledon since 2007 (?) return the surplus? If you ain’t as good and play fewer sets you shouldn’t get the same dosh, especially as only madmen and idiots would pay to watch women’s sport.
    You made the bed sugar lips, lie in it.

  10. “Because that whole “doing the same things guys like doing” often doesn’t end at eating pussy. Most women in programming treat it as a job, not a craft. They don’t get their noodle lit up by doing it, or finding out new things about it. But lesbians can be quite hardcore techies.”

    Interesting!

  11. BoM4 – Deffo.

    PJF – Sure, but I’m going long on Western Civ, because retarded incest babies and illiterate dole mongs do not a Caliphate make.

    I also think the mentality of “WUR DOOMED!!! UwU” is one of the reasons the Right has consistently lost since 1945. Turns out depressive sad sacks like, say, Peter Hitchens don’t know how to win, and probably don’t want to win. Sad! Gay!

    But, otoh, witness the joyful noise made by the successful Leave campaign. Being positive and fun to be around gets you a lot more action than sounding like a stuck Jilted John record.

    God has blessed us with enemies who are ridiculous, they’re there for the taking. Are we going to give up our country to a bunch of blokes in knickers or dribbling sisterfuckers in dirty white robes? No, sir, we are not.

    But we’ve got to get a lot tougher and funner and smarterer, folks! Bigly.

  12. As Tatiana McGrath put it on Twitter: some men don’t win at sports until they become women which proves women are better than men.

    We know that genitals don’t determine the sexes because babies born with ambiguous genitals are given surgery and are generally made into boys as surgeons find it easier to make a pole rather than a hole.

    Chromosomes aren’t a 100% reliable indicator either.

    I don’t think that “identifying as a woman” is never going to be abused.

    Can’t we just count ribs? Pretty reliable I would have thought.

  13. “…diversity in general and sexual anarchy in particular destroys social capital…”

    Exactly, Steve!

    Diversity is a cost, not a benefit – a weakness, not a strength!

  14. “Diversity is a cost, not a benefit – a weakness, not a strength!”

    What, you think *everyone* should be an SJW?

  15. This is going to get interesting, women’s groups are waking up the the problems of appeasing the transgender lobby, crisis centres and refuges that can’t prohibit trans women that are biologically still male being one issue as well as the sports.
    Having spent the last few years telling us we are all transphobic nazis it’s going to be fun seeing how they try to deal with that they have created
    Had a gay friend complain last year about how BLM and Trans have hijacked Pride, had I said half of what he said I’d be locked up

  16. @Steve February 17, 2019 at 12:10 pm

    “Whereas a vocal minority of the troons are demented left loons who create endless drama”

    FTFY

    Same as most gays don’t go to “Pride” marches, they live a quiet regular life.

  17. JuliaM – Oh no, you sent out the NiV Signal! It’s like the Bat Signal

    Probably looks like a silhouetted feminine penis tho.

    Looks like a what now?

  18. Steve says ” the Right has consistently lost since 1945. Turns out depressive sad sacks like, say, Peter Hitchens don’t know how to win,”
    Regrettably a fault of both the conservative right & the libertarian right. They believe ‘play up & play the game” ‘play a straight bat’ and all the rest of the public school, Boys Own mantra is some sort of viable rule for life.When anyone sensible knows ‘ the end justifies the means’, ‘never give a sucker an even break’ ‘punch below the belt’ and make a point of ‘kicking your man when he’s down, repeatedly, until he’s a bloody pulp’ are what works.
    The correct way to deal with this trannie bollox isn’t compromise. it’s to push back hard. We’ve a principal works very well. It’s the majority of beholders gets to decide what things are, not the beheld. We don’t go asking dogs & cats what they’d prefer to be classified as. Politicians advocating self definition should have been greeted with what they deserve. Derision. Voluble & at length. And anyone else trying to pretend a bloke in a frock is a woman. Including you NiV. Sure, some sad sick people are going to get a hard time. Tough. It’s a hard world. But that’s better than the majority end up with psychoses dancing on eggshells about what some nutters choose to call themselves. You don’t get to be Emperor of the French by changing your name to Napoleon.

  19. Had a gay friend complain last year about how BLM and Trans have hijacked Pride, had I said half of what he said I’d be locked up

    That’s the trouble with marching under that LGBT banner. I’ve written before about how a lot of countries are probably willing to accept gay men and women (or at least leave them alone) but are seeing wankers like Peter Tatchell turn up and demand “LGBT rights” be implemented at national level. He doesn’t seem to understand the term LGBT doesn’t exist outside of a handful of western countries, and if people looked into it they’d decide “no thanks” as soon as they got to the “T” part.

  20. He doesn’t seem to understand the term LGBT doesn’t exist outside of a handful of western countries, and if people looked into it they’d decide “no thanks” as soon as they got to the “T” part.

    Good point. The tranny madness will be an obstacle to gay rights in developing nations.

    All ultra-conservatives / gay-haters have to do is point to the US & UK and say: “Yeah, this gay rights malarkey might seem fair enough to you, but go down that road and you’ll have some nutter waving his beefy swingers at your daughter in the changing room, and you will get arrested if you complain.”

  21. Trannies are much more prevalent in developing nations Thailand and Philippines. Every other show on Philippines TV seems to be some ladyboy singing competition.

    However, you don’t get all the political madness with it there. The way it should be really: tolerated without imposing the nonsense on everyone else.

  22. The way it should be really: tolerated without imposing the nonsense on everyone else.

    Yes, but over here the noisy ones have confused tolerance with approval.

  23. It’s the problem with all single issue monomaniacs (and particularly the well-paid jobsworths that are spun off from them) – greens and homosexual campaigners being obvious examples. They start out with reasonable and plausible demands. They convince society to change and win their point. But what they never, ever do is to fold up their tents and quietly vanish with the satisfaction of a job well done. Instead they press eternally onwards with the next step on the ratchet, until we all get sufficiently narked to tell them to piss off.

  24. Does anybody know how many men, transgendered into women, have been selected for female beach volleyball teams? Also, would anyone watch them if they had?

  25. “Regrettably a fault of both the conservative right & the libertarian right. They believe ‘play up & play the game” ‘play a straight bat’ and all the rest of the public school, Boys Own mantra is some sort of viable rule for life.When anyone sensible knows ‘ the end justifies the means’, ‘never give a sucker an even break’ ‘punch below the belt’ and make a point of ‘kicking your man when he’s down, repeatedly, until he’s a bloody pulp’ are what works.”

    I don’t think that applies to the libertarian right. You have Arron Banks deliberately trying to recruit pro-leave people to join the Conservative Party with the express purpose of being able to deselect Conservative MPs. Farage is starting up his Brexit Party which is basically going to exploit the flaws in the FPTP system to blackmail Conservative MPs.

    It’s the bloody tories that are the problem, because they’re just a bunch of patrician milquetoast snobs who value respectability higher than winning. They do not care about their core vote or potential vote. Instead, they seem to chase Labour policies – more foreign aid, more banning, more immigrants. And what does it get them? Labour still call them evil tories, Guardian readers still vote Labour.

    It’s why I really don’t care about the threat of the Conservative Party being split apart. It can go, and maybe the libertarians get more of a shot.

  26. “Probably looks like a silhouetted feminine penis tho.

    Looks like a what now?”

    Yes, you know the penis that to uneducated and bigoted transphobe looks like a male penis, but in fact is a completely different organ attached to what everyone agrees is (and will lock you up if you don’t) a woman, who has always been and will always a woman (unless she decides to become a man of course).

    [I nearly said ‘become a man again’ then, but that would imply she once wasn’t a woman which of course she always has been, despite having a penis…………..]

  27. “He doesn’t seem to understand the term LGBT doesn’t exist outside of a handful of western countries, and if people looked into it they’d decide “no thanks” as soon as they got to the “T” part.”

    Well, it’s not so popular in Muslim countries! You feel happy finding yourself sat in the same camp with the Muslims, right?

    But India comes out ahead even of the United States in surveys, and even places like China and Turkey are up at about 60% in favour. I don’t think you’ve got any evidence to back up that opinion.

  28. Is that the rightthink now?

    I thought the correctthought was that it was a female brain, trapped inside the body of a man, with all the hormones, appearances and behaviours of a man. Thus it would still be a male penis, just with a female jockey riding.
    Oo er, erm, female pilot maybe?

    Could NiV clarify please, as our resident keeper of goodthink on this matter.

  29. NiV… as I wrote earlier in these countries peiple arn’t being forced to join in the delusion. They don’t care because it’s not being imposed on them. They can say trannies are just crazy blokes in dresses and no.one cares.

    If it was just live and let live, everyone entitled to their own opinion it would be 90+% in favour in the west.

    But it’s not is it? It’s if you have a differing opinion you can be hounded out of your job and ruined.

  30. “Well, it’s not so popular in Muslim countries! You feel happy finding yourself sat in the same camp with the Muslims, right?”

    That’s a dumb as shit argument. Theft is also not popular in Muslim countries but doesn’t mean everyone who has a problem with Islamic culture thinks it’s ok to go around robbing people.

  31. You feel happy finding yourself sat in the same camp with the Muslims, right?

    On some matters yes. On others no.

    I think most people here realise that it is possible to agree with some aspects of an ideology/political party/religion and not others, as well as to varying degrees.

    For the issue in question – gays and tranniez – I agree with the Muslim position that it not behaviour to be condoned.
    I do not, however, agree with testing the current strength of the gravitational field at the top of the nearest block of flats with the practitioners of said issue.

    See?

  32. Bloke on M4, that pretty much describes the Republican Party in the U.S., too.

    The establishment in Washington seeks approval from the Dems and the press, even though they hate their guts.

    They never try to appeal to their base. Which pisses us off royally.

    The Dems have their own mess. They are a coalition of disparate groups, held together by the belief that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Navratilova and others are discovering, “Hey, they are my enemy, too!” The Democrat party could collapse in a day if all their groups looked at each other. Unfortunately, we’re not there yet.

  33. I’d have thought that there isn’t an MTF tranny in the world who sans dick and balls, with hormones and breast implants, who stands a snowball’s chance in hell of beating Navratilova in her prime at tennis. On the other hand, a blke on the international tennis circuit wearing a skirt and identifying as female could probably win the first two sets.

  34. Need to be careful with that. Wasn’t there one male player, around 100 in the rankings, who played both Williams sisters? And thrashed them both soundly, accelerating out of sight as he did so?

  35. “Could NiV clarify please, as our resident keeper of goodthink on this matter.”

    The brain defines legal identity. You can chop everything else off, and what’s left still counts as being “you”, but brain death is death, even if everything else is alive and healthy. You talk to the brain, not the kidneys.

    That’s why, for the purposes of everyday social interaction (outside the specialised reproductive and medical arenas), a person is classified according to their gender, not their sex.

    “If it was just live and let live, everyone entitled to their own opinion it would be 90+% in favour in the west. But it’s not is it? It’s if you have a differing opinion you can be hounded out of your job and ruined.”

    Agreed. But it is not, in general, the TGs who do so, is it? Most TGs still keep their heads down and hide what they are. And there aren’t enough of them around to be any position to fire anyone much. No, the people firing you are heterosexual, cisgender, boys-in-trousers women-in-skirts, supposedly ‘normal’ people, aren’t they?

    So why aren’t all the nasty comments here being directed at the cisgender heterosexuals? We know why, don’t we?

    The progressive strategy is to watch the changing of social fashions and find persecuted minorities that the public has new-found sympathy for, that they know the conservatives will kick up about and object to, and throw their support behind them. The poor baby polar bears are being persecuted by those nasty industrialists, and authoritarian power is needed to defend the innocent cute cwuddly wittle poly bears from the bad men. The public are understandably wary of handing out that sort of power (like, the power to get anyone they don’t like fired), but if the lefties can show off some right-wingers hating on polar bears and making jokes about barbecued bear grills, or a famous scientist making jokes about women in his science lab, that sells it to the public. Continuing hatred for the persecuted minority justifies handing over power to the heroic lefties who are working to defend them.

    And the thick-as-pigshit conservatives fall for it every time. It’s no use trash-talking the baby polar bears etc., they’re not your enemy. By stomping on them so publicly, you just strengthen the lefties’ case. You justify their power grab in the eyes of the public.

    What the hell do you think Socialist intellectuals care about TGs for? Or gays? Or Amazonian tree frogs? Or women? Or the disabled? Or black people? Or the poor? Marx and Engels were against gays. Stalin and Hitler persecuted them. The left have historically been in the forefront of their persecution, when that was what bought them popularity and hence power.

    Women, blacks, and the poor look at the political sides – the left seem to be for them and fighting to defend them, the right are always showing their hatred and contempt against them. Whose side are they going to pick? Who are they going to see as the obvious ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ in this narrative?

    The rage is cathartic, no doubt, but it’s not a good way to win friends and influence people. Or at least, not in the way I think any of you would want. Just sayin’.

  36. @Tim He was ranked over 200 and had consumed a few beers before he played them. Martina couldn’t have beaten male no 1000 in the world at her best.

  37. “The progressive strategy is to watch the changing of social fashions and find persecuted minorities that the public has new-found sympathy for, that they know the conservatives will kick up about and object to, and throw their support behind them. The poor baby polar bears are being persecuted by those nasty industrialists, and authoritarian power is needed to defend the innocent cute cwuddly wittle poly bears from the bad men. The public are understandably wary of handing out that sort of power (like, the power to get anyone they don’t like fired), but if the lefties can show off some right-wingers hating on polar bears and making jokes about barbecued bear grills, or a famous scientist making jokes about women in his science lab, that sells it to the public. Continuing hatred for the persecuted minority justifies handing over power to the heroic lefties who are working to defend them.”

    Thats got to be the biggest load of old bullshit I’ve ever seen.

    According to you when the Hard Left pick on some new section of mentally ill people they think will be useful in their desire to gain more power over everyone, the Right should just go ‘Fine, have your new powers to ban people from being nasty to pedophiles (or people who have sex with animals, whoever is the next lucky recipient of the Lefts munificence)’ and let them get on with it. How exactly is that ‘winning’ Einstein? When someone demands X from you, and you say ‘Go ahead, take it, I’ll even help you take it’?

    Apart from which, the public AREN’T in favour of these things, or have sympathy for them, just the Hard Left are. If offered a vote the UK public would plump for the idea that a person with cock and balls is a man. And a person with a fanny is a woman. Yet no one asked the UK public, they get told. By cunts like you.

  38. “How exactly is that ‘winning’ Einstein?”

    Well, that depends on whether you are one of the 90%+ in “If it was just live and let live, everyone entitled to their own opinion it would be 90+% in favour in the west”, or whether you’re one of the 10%- authoritarian sickos for who it *isn’t* about SJWs getting people fired for wrongthink, you just hate people who are different, and have no intention of allowing “live and let live” to operate.

    You’d be just another variety of SJW – and public disgust for your type is the main reason for their many victories.

    “Apart from which, the public AREN’T in favour of these things, or have sympathy for them, just the Hard Left are.”

    You’re a liar and you know it, clap your hands.
    You’re a liar and you know it, clap your hands.
    You’re a liar and you know it, and you really want to show it.
    You’re a liar and you know it, clap your hands.

  39. “Well, that depends on whether you are one of the 90%+ in “If it was just live and let live, everyone entitled to their own opinion it would be 90+% in favour in the west”, or whether you’re one of the 10%- authoritarian sickos for who it *isn’t* about SJWs getting people fired for wrongthink, you just hate people who are different, and have no intention of allowing “live and let live” to operate.”

    But no-one is offering a ‘live and let live’ policy are they? All thats being demanded is a ‘You must think the way we tell you to, and if you as much as peep that you don’t we’ll lock you up’ policy. So how exactly is agreeing to that a win for anyone?

  40. “You definitely struck a nerve there, Jim.”

    🙂

    You wish!

    “But no-one is offering a ‘live and let live’ policy are they?”

    Not when they can make so much political capital out of you lot, no.

  41. @Tim Newman February 18, 2019 at 8:22 am

    iirc Peter Tatchell is not in favour of this tranny mania and mostly thinks LGB has achieved enough

    “…Peter Tatchell, said: “This verdict is a victory for freedom of expression. As well as meaning that Ashers cannot be legally forced to aid the promotion of same-sex marriage, it also means that gay bakers cannot be compelled by law to decorate cakes with anti-gay marriage slogans.

    “Although I profoundly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality, in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be forced to facilitate a political idea that they oppose…”
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/uk-supreme-court-backs-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake

  42. “Not when they can make so much political capital out of you lot, no.”

    Thats the whole fucking point!!

    The Left don’t care about transgenders any more than they now care about the white working class. So they are never going to advocate a moderate policy that everyone can agree on (and would actually help transgender persons) they will always demand an extreme policy so as to generate a reaction. But if the ‘the Right’ don’t kick up about an extreme policy, then the Left get it anyway. There is no-one else to even attempt to stop it. So they move on to the next bit of madness.

    So your ‘solution’ is nuts. Its basically to bend over and say ‘how far would you like fuck me?’ Could you please explain in the absence of anyone opposing Left wing nuttery, how exactly it doesn’t end up being enacted? By what process does ‘doing nothing’ result in bad people being stymied? I mean appeasement has such a wonderful history of working perfectly…………..

    And does the concept work the other way? If the Right propose an extreme policy will the Left just say ‘Go ahead, feel free’? Or will they fight it tooth and nail?

  43. But India comes out ahead even of the United States in surveys, and even places like China and Turkey are up at about 60% in favour.

    And Hillary has a 98% chance of winning.

  44. Peter Tatchell is not in favour of this tranny mania and mostly thinks LGB has achieved enough

    He was on Twitter this morning banging on about LGBT rights in Venezuela. He did the same in Russia.

  45. Back to the important stuff… Equal prize money for transgender? Over 4 sets?

    And what would the dress code be, beyond predominantly white?

  46. “But if the ‘the Right’ don’t kick up about an extreme policy, then the Left get it anyway.”

    Depends which bit you’re considering an “extreme policy”.

    If you mean supporting transgender people in a ‘live and let live’ way, then it’s *not* the left that want it. The social fashions have shifted, and about 70-80% of the population (and rising) are supportive of that. If you’re trying to fight that part, you’ve already lost, and it’s got nothing to do with the hard left.

    But the other part is the in-your-face, activist, opinion-policing where you can get destroyed for saying the wrong thing – that part is *not* what most people want, but which the hard left have persuaded them is needed by pointing to the antics of the haters.

    Socialists seize the power to tax the rich by evoking sympathy for the poor, who they say they want to defend from rapacious business owners. The public *do* have sympathy for the poor, don’t kid yourself about that. But you can combat it successfully by pointing out that you too are seeking to help the poor, by giving them wages, and the less you’re taxed the more wages you can hand out. You *don’t* get public sympathy for tax cuts by complaining about the sponging benefits-scroungers and saying the poor are only fit to serve as your boot-scrapers so you don’t get mud on the expensive carpets in your London mansion. Do you see the difference?

    You need to attack the authoritarians and their authoritarian policies directly. You’ll get nowhere attacking the sympathy group they’re using for cover. First, because they’re not actually the problem. Second, because it will be used against you.

    But we’re always going to have those who *do* want to use the faces of destitute orphan moppets as boot scrapers, and are only using high taxes and rants against the left as an excuse. And therefore the left will always have a ready-made argument for high taxes. That’s annoying for the rest of us.

  47. ‘What the hell do you think Socialist intellectuals care about’

    The socialists want your stuff. They will take it. You won’t let them. So they will kill you, then take your stuff. They generally don’t want to have to kill you – though they have some nutters who signed up because they DO want to kill you – but they will kill you nonetheless.
    See Kulaks, Jews. Cambodian intellectuals, Cambodians who wore glasses.

    ‘Women, blacks, and the poor look at the political sides – the left seem to be for them and fighting to defend them, the right are always showing their hatred and contempt against them.’

    Says the Dems and the legacy press.

    Women, blacks and the poor are tools. The Left wants to take your stuff. They are thieves and murderers. But if they say they are doing it for women, blacks, and the poor, you may not resist.

    The Left says ‘the right are always showing their hatred and contempt against them.’ A lie. The right offers the best hope for them. Freedom and liberty are good for everyone.

    The Left controls the schools and the legacy press. So the lie persists.

  48. “Agreed. But it is not, in general, the TGs who do so, is it? ”

    Well it often is. It’s the Trannies demanding to be called by their preferred pronoun, trannies who demand to be the ‘father’ on the birth cert of the baby they just gave birth to, trannies who complain about being called a man on twitter. But yes it’s also loony lefties.

    “No, the people firing you are heterosexual, cisgender, boys-in-trousers women-in-skirts, supposedly ‘normal’ people, aren’t they?”

    Who themselves have been hounded to do so by the loony left.

    “So why aren’t all the nasty comments here being directed at the cisgender heterosexuals? ”

    Eh? There’s all sorts of nasty comments here aimed at normal loonies on the left.

    One of my son’s godparents is a Filipino trannie. He looks like he’s out of Spinal Tap but each to their own. Now I think you’re correct that much of it is lefities using them to assert their authoritarianism on everyone else but it doesn’t mean the trannies in the west haven’t jumped on the bandwaggon and you yourself on this website help them by pushing your psudoscience about women with willies.

    I’m pretty sure no one here has a thing against the trannies per se. They can prance around pretending to be women to their hearts’ content and we can call them oddball men in frocks. If we’re allowed to do that then you’ll find there’s less abuse aimed at them. Like my friend in the Philippines; no one is forcing me to call him a girl so maybe I will to be polite and because I like him but it’s my choice. All my choice.

  49. NiV, people who have ‘nasty’ comments aimed at them here:

    Vocal trannies that demand we call them by the opposite pronoun to what they are and demand we go down the rabbit hole with them.

    Authoritarian/loony lefties who do the same as the trannies above.

    Narcisstic parents who indulge their child’s fantasies to virtue signal how right on they are and get their children on.meds to fuck them up.

    Doctors who fuck up kids who are going through a silly phase.

    Teacher who brainwash kids into believing this is all perfectly normal.

    People who make longwinded, boring, psuedointellectual posts on here trying to convince us that people with a dick and balls might actually be female.

    People who don’t get nasty comments here:

    Trannies who just want to quietly get on with their odd lives and not force everyone else to join in.

  50. If you mean supporting transgender people in a ‘live and let live’ way, then it’s *not* the left that want it. The social fashions have shifted, and about 70-80% of the population (and rising) are supportive of that. If you’re trying to fight that part, you’ve already lost, and it’s got nothing to do with the hard left.

    What do you mean by a ‘live and let live’ way?
    If you mean that people get to dress up in a frock and wig without getting their heads kicked in, then I’d guess it’s probably higher than 80%.
    If you mean blokes with dicks being accepted going into women’s changing rooms, I’d suggest that number is a lot lower…

  51. Obviously we’ve not got the statistics on this but I believe we’ve two trans among the readership. Regular readership that is. One post op and one definitely female in head and not going in for any of that funny surgery stuff.

    Can’t recall either of them ever coming in for any stick over the issue at all.

  52. “If you mean blokes with dicks being accepted going into women’s changing rooms, I’d suggest that number is a lot lower…”

    I’ve already given you the number, and no it’s not.

    “Can’t recall either of them ever coming in for any stick over the issue at all.”

    I remember the first time Josephine mentioned it – the way she was treated here was a large part of what initially motivated me to do something about it.

    And I saw a post from a trans regular here about it on another site – I don’t remember the wording exactly as it was ages ago but it was to the effect that ‘Tim’s OK, but the comments thread is a reminder that a lot of our fellow travellers aren’t liberals’. Only it wasn’t quite as complimentary as that. I decided not to mention it at the time, as I didn’t want to direct trouble their way, but I believe it was talking about a time before I showed up.

    I would expect that if either of my TG friends came here, they’d just roll their eyes, describe it as a sewer, and ‘typical’, and never come back. They incline libertarian-right too, although not as much as me, but they’re not going to be “regular readership”.

    It puts people off, which is politically inconvenient. But free speech is free speech, and the right answer is never to ban it, but always to argue with it. We can tolerate a diversity of opinion too.

  53. I’ve already given you the number, and no it’s not.

    Must mean that the factory I work in is an outlier then. There was a big outcry when a TG wanted to use the female toilets. They had to build a new toilets for him/her.

    Or alternatively that you’re talking bollocks and people don’t want blokes in women’s changing rooms and toilet facilities.

    On the other topic, can you point to where someone has got abuse on this site for actually being a trannie? Not abuse for telling people how to think or so-called misgendering.
    I can’t recall any. Plenty for trying to enforce world views onto others, but for being TG? Doesn’t sound right for here.

  54. I would expect that if either of my TG friends came here, they’d just roll their eyes, describe it as a sewer, and ‘typical’, and never come back.

    Typical, eh? Funny, because you’ve been banging on for quite some time about how trannies are now fully accepted across most of society and this site is an outlier.

  55. If the numbers were as NiV’s sources say, there wouldn’t be any controversy. But we know there is and we know it’s universal rather than just here – because the media can keep selling stories about the crazy.

    Don’t trust polls and surveys where it’s a hate crime to give the real answer.

  56. “We can tolerate a diversity of opinion too.”

    Yeh right. Ask Jordan Petersen how much diversity of opinion the was given by the TG nutters. Or the woman who was arrested for refusing to agree that a TG is a real woman.

    And they are nutters, anyone who thinks they are something they aren’t is one. I’ve a friend who’s a schizophrenic. When he stops taking his meds he thinks he’s King Arthur. He genuinely believes it, in your terms he’s got a ‘King Arthur brain’. However oddly enough no one goes around telling everyone that they must accept that he IS King Arthur, and if they don’t they’ll be arrested for a hate crime. No, they section him and jab him full of an anti-psychotic drug.

  57. But Jim,
    It wasn’t the saintly tranniez who arrested that woman. It was the evil white patriarchy demonstrating the evil privilege that hetero whites have over the poor oppressed tranniez by locking up a woman who was oppressing them by saying something on Twitter.
    Really the so-called Transgenders just want to be left in peace to go into women’s changing rooms to dry their wedding tackle.
    Can’t say I blame them. The women’s changing facilities tend to be better equipped and cleaner.
    Maybe this whole thing could be sorted by giving men better bathroom and changing facilities?

  58. “On the other topic, can you point to where someone has got abuse on this site for actually being a trannie? Not abuse for telling people how to think or so-called misgendering.”

    Most of them, actually.

    Unless “telling people how to think” means “expressing any opinion on the subject different to yours”.

    But perhaps you could point out for me where the “troons” being criticised here told Steve what to think, or complained to him about being misgendered?

    Whereas the troons create endless drama, because they’re mentally ill blokes who need constant attention and validation to feed their autogynephile fetish. So the cops have been told to dox people who fall afoul of the genderspazzed because “social cohesion”, but diversity in general and sexual anarchy in particular destroys social capital, and no amount of state repression can change that.

    The only people described telling Steve what to think are “the cops”, but he doesn’t attack the cops, or even the lawmakers who told them so. His complaint is “diversity in general and sexual anarchy in particular destroys social capital”. His only complaint against the TGs is that they “destroy social capital” by their “sexual anarchy”. ‘Anarchy’ is defined elsewhere ‘a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems’. His complaint is that they’re not following the rules society imposes on sexual behaviour.

    He’s not insulting them because of being told what to think. He’s complaining about them breaking his norms by being transgender.

    You don’t notice what he’s saying, because he’s on your side. You see a bunch of sentiments muddled together that you vaguely agree with, and cheer. But he’s doing exactly what I said he’s doing. None of the “mentally ill” and “genderspazzed” nastiness is directed at the cops or those who instructed them (where I’d agree with him), only at the TGs, whose offence here is “sexual anarchy”.

    There may be TGs around who don’t think the cops should be doxing people just for disagreeing, but they’re not going to read the comment that way. The ones who told the cops what to do get away pretty much scot free.

    “Typical, eh? Funny, because you’ve been banging on for quite some time about how trannies are now fully accepted across most of society and this site is an outlier.”

    Statistics is hard, isn’t it?

    I’d not describe it as an outlier. It’s a minority. About 70% are in favour and supportive, about 15-20% are against. The rest don’t know/don’t care. If one in five people are opposed, then you’re going to run into them pretty often.

    Judging from experience, I’d say a bit less than 1% are rude enough (or feel triggered enough by it) to say something to their face. For every 100-500 people in public they meet (a day to a week) they’ll get a nasty comment. On a scale of weeks to a couple of months, a threat. I don’t know what percentage wouldn’t do so in person but will do on blogs, but it’s still going to be a minority.

    Things are a lot better than they used to be. My friends do feel safe enough to sometimes go out on their own, now. But they still won’t go to most pubs and clubs on their own, and they’re cautious when travelling on buses or trains. They don’t say or do anything about it generally. The way they see it, some people in this world are nasty-minded scumbags and there’s nothing you can do about it. You just have to live with it. But yes, they’d consider it ‘typical’ of scumbag behaviour.

  59. I’d not describe it as an outlier.

    I’m not in the slightest bit interested in how you describe anything. What I did find interesting is your TG friends found prevailing attitudes on here to be typical.

  60. If the numbers were as NiV’s sources say, there wouldn’t be any controversy.

    This.

    Don’t trust polls and surveys where it’s a hate crime to give the real answer.

    This too.

  61. NiV

    There are plenty of comments on this site criticising both the Police and the overlord politicos who control them. Not every comment will criticise all groups, otherwise conversations become unwieldy.

    Can you link to that conversation to provide context for the comment?

    Also, the example you gave contains a lot of un-PC language, but not any abuse directed at someone. If you consider politically incorrect language like this to be abuse, then you need a thicker skin. That comment is on the level of David Cameron calling UKIP members fruitcake loons. Ie. The sort of thing that politicians say every day. Not exactly on the level of a good Ecksian rant. Or should we lock up every Politician who insults an opponent? (maybe not a bad idea…)

    Saying you think the so-called Transgenders are really men/women/delete as applicable is one thing. Trying to force people to accept them in their changing rooms is another.

    One solution is to have fully mixed changing rooms, where everyone changes in cubicles. Then everyone is together and there are plenty of men around to prevent unwanted behaviour from the undesirable elements.

    His complaint is that they’re not following the rules society imposes on sexual behaviour.

    And?
    Rape and paedophilia are also against the rules of sexual behaviour imposed by society. Beastiality is also frowned upon.

    You want the rules changed. We are under no obligation to do so to make you happy.

    Applying Chesterton’s Fence, those rules have developed over hundreds or thousands of years and are there for a reason and we should have a good, long, hard think before changing them, not throw them out in a relative blink of an eye just because a scientist figured out how to chop a dick off and give some hormone injections.

  62. “Judging from experience, I’d say a bit less than 1% are rude enough (or feel triggered enough by it) to say something to their face. For every 100-500 people in public they meet (a day to a week) they’ll get a nasty comment. On a scale of weeks to a couple of months, a threat.”

    Random shit dressed in a pretend language of pseudo-precision. In other words, utter bollocks just made up on the spot.

  63. “I’m not in the slightest bit interested in how you describe anything. What I did find interesting is your TG friends found prevailing attitudes on here to be typical.”

    Typical of what?

    “Don’t trust polls and surveys where it’s a hate crime to give the real answer. This too.”

    Fortunate, then, that isn’t such a poll, eh?

    “There are plenty of comments on this site criticising both the Police and the overlord politicos who control them. Not every comment will criticise all groups, otherwise conversations become unwieldy.”

    I don’t expect them to. But the argument was that people here don’t criticise TGs because they are TGs, they only abuse people who tell them what to think or complain about being misgendered. In the comment, the people telling Steve what to think come in for no criticism whatsoever. The TGs do.

    What he ought to have done, if the claim is true, is criticise the police and their political masters, and left the TGs out of it to prevent things becoming unwieldy. But of course he didn’t do that because the complaint has stuff-all to do with being told what to think. The complaint here is about “sexual anarchy” and its threat to “social capital”.

    And if you can figure out what sort of weasel-sociology term “social capital” is, well done!

    “Can you link to that conversation to provide context for the comment?”

    Errr… this one?

    http://www.timworstall.com/2019/02/17/well-yes-this-is-a-problem-2/#comment-846647

    “Also, the example you gave contains a lot of un-PC language, but not any abuse directed at someone.”

    It was directed at the “troons”.

    “If you consider politically incorrect language like this to be abuse, then you need a thicker skin.”

    I have a very thick skin! As do most TGs. My point is about what that comment tells us about *you lot*. I’m not offended or upset by it.

    “Saying you think the so-called Transgenders are really men/women/delete as applicable is one thing. Trying to force people to accept them in their changing rooms is another.”

    Oh, yes, forcing me to be tolerant is a breach of my human rights!

    Next week, we’re going to have the racists ask if they could have a separate toilet for the blacks, because they don’t want to be *forced* to share space with them. It makes them feel uncomfortable.

    And the week after, the Chelsea fans are going to ask for separate toilets to the Millwall fans, for the same reason.

    And the week after that, the women are going to ask that other women be excluded from the changing rooms, because YouGov askedit makes 40% of them feel uncomfortable!

    And the stage after that is that anyone can declare a “safe space” anywhere from which they can exclude anyone who makes them feel uncomfortable, for any reason, whether rational or otherwise. Why just toilets? Why not pubs and restaurants and workplaces?

    The general principle on which we decide such things is that people can only be prevented from doing what they want to prevent actual harm. Not ‘offence’ or ‘discomfort’ or ‘potential’. If they’re just going to the toilet, like anyone else, that’s not harm. Or there are a whole load of new things that are gonna get banned!

    “Then everyone is together and there are plenty of men around to prevent unwanted behaviour from the undesirable elements.”

    Mmm. “Unwanted behaviour”, eh? Sounds like the SJW definition of rape!

    Assaults on anyone, anywhere, are, of course, still outlawed, and I’ve got no problem at all with that.

    “Rape and paedophilia are also against the rules of sexual behaviour imposed by society.”

    ‘Harm to others’ should be prevented. Actions which do no harm to anyone else should not. Feeling ‘triggered’ is not harm.

    “You want the rules changed. We are under no obligation to do so to make you happy.”

    Actually, 70% of the population want the rules changed. (And indeed, already changed them years ago.) *We* are under no obligation to make *you* happy.

    “Applying Chesterton’s Fence, those rules have developed over hundreds or thousands of years and are there for a reason and we should have a good, long, hard think before changing them”

    Those rules arose as a result of Moses slaughtering all the tribes who previously had done things differently, about 3,500 years ago. The reason they are there is anyone who didn’t follow them got killed by people who believed it was the right and duty of society to impose its norms of behaviour on its members, even in matters where no harm to any others was done. He also made rules against eating bacon, wanking, and wearing clothes of mixed fibres. He was an iron age tribal lunatic with a beard. I’m sorry, but his rules can fuck off. And yes, I had a good long hard think before I came to that decision.

  64. @Tim Newman February 18, 2019 at 10:14 pm

    Pcar February 18, 2019 at 10:02 pm
    iirc
    iirc Peter Tatchell is not in favour of this tranny mania and mostly thinks LGB has achieved enough…

    LGB or LGBT rights in Venezuela? Also, note my “iirc” you omitted

  65. @Dongguan John February 19, 2019 at 2:24 am

    People who [from most] don’t get nasty comments here:

    Trannies who just want to quietly get on with their odd lives and not force everyone else to join in..

    +1

    There was one, but sadly Josephine’s vanished

    @Tim Worstall February 19, 2019 at 9:17 am

    See above on post-op. At least two “on spectrum”, but TV more than TS

  66. “And the stage after that is that anyone can declare a “safe space” anywhere from which they can exclude anyone who makes them feel uncomfortable, for any reason, whether rational or otherwise. Why just toilets? Why not pubs and restaurants and workplaces?”

    Seems entirely compatible* with libertarianism. What’s your problem?

    (*privately owned, of course)

  67. “Fortunate, then, that isn’t such a poll, eh?”

    Any poll on this issue is going to be influenced by people knowing the “wrong” answer is regarded by the pollster as a social evil.

    And as we’ve discovered lately (Brexit, Trump, etc), increasing numbers of regular people just avoid responding to polls and surveys.

  68. “Actually, 70% of the population want the rules changed. (And indeed, already changed them years ago.)”

    The population was never asked. The population didn’t change the rules.

    Actually.

  69. “The population was never asked. The population didn’t change the rules. Actually.”

    Do you really think politicians would do something like this without checking first? 🙂

  70. “Do you really think politicians would do something like this without checking first?”

    Fuck me, have you been hiding under a rock for the last 20 years? Virtually nothing that has gone on for decades in social policy has been led by grassroots opinions, and virtually all of it has been imposed by a self selected liberal elite who are convinced they know whats best for the proles, and are going to give it to them, by force if they have to. Brexit, Trump, Yellow vests, Salvini, AfD, Orban etc etc etc are the direct consequence of years of such behaviour…………..

  71. “They incline libertarian-right too, although not as much as me…

    “Do you really think politicians would do something like this without checking first?”

    Some of us have great cognitive dissonance thrust upon us but you were clearly born yesterday with yours.

  72. The population was never asked. The population didn’t change the rules.

    Also consider how gay marriage went in the US. They tried again and again and again to get the public’s approval to legalise it, but failed every time. So they just rammed it through the Supreme Court. Of course, now you have polls saying everyone thinks it’s a great idea, which says more about polls than anything else.

  73. @NiV February 19, 2019 at 10:50 pm

    Do you really think politicians would do something like this without checking first?

    Yes. They:

    abolished and won’t restore death penalty
    refuse to leave EU
    want ISIS woman back in UK
    support 0.7% GDP DfID
    ……

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