Interesting really

And so we end up with an act of wilful self destruction, which is what Brexit is. The vast majority can see that in itself it is glaringly obviously not the right thing to do.

Strange then that the majority who voted did so in favour of Brexit. And if the opinion polls are to be believed, so would a plurality again. So what is this vast majorty who can see that Brexit is obviously not the right thing to do?

48 comments on “Interesting really

  1. Its an interesting concept, that the public can only vote for things that aren’t self destructive, even if one assumes Brexit IS self destructive, which of course I don’t.

    Does that mean that if the public vote for Jeremy Corbyn’s Josef’n’Mao tribute act fair and square someone who disagrees with that vote is entitled to come along and say ‘Sorry chaps, you can’t have what you voted for, because all the evidence shows that socialism is bad for everyone in the short, medium and long term’?

  2. The great and good, rent-seekers, crony capitalists, renewable energy scammers, horsemeat purveyors, protectionists and assorted federasts. Nobody of any account.

  3. Ah, but we’re evil, so we voted Leave for our own selfish reasons (or Russian money), even though we knew it was obviously the wrong thing to do.

    Murphy can tell that we’re evil because we voted for what we knew was clearly the wrong thing.

    Murphy can tell that we knew Leave was clearly the wrong thing, despite voting for it, because we’re evil.

    Circles are a logical shape.

  4. If there’s one thing that has convinced me that Brexit was the right decision it’s being told that the case for the EU is so “glaringly obvious” that no supporting evidence is necessary.

  5. @RichardT: “Ah, but we’re evil, so we voted Leave for our own selfish reasons…”.

    Ha-ha, quite… that is what *they* (well, alot of them) seem to think about Leavers, isn’t it? Evil. Or thick. Or possibly both

    I’ve spent a few weeks talking to a few people I know who voted Remain, and trying to drill down to the reason why. The real reason why.

    Each of the standard arguments about jobs, trade, legislation, democratic accountability, immigration, NI / Eire border / backstop, further referenda, what the future would look like outside or inside the EU etc: I steadily knock them down, until it gets to the point I can ask them “So… why did you *really* vote for Remain?”.

    All bar one have said – ultimately – that they feel relatively OK with the status-quo, fairly well off, and don’t want to risk it: don’t rock the boat. Children can ‘easily’ go to uni in Europe, they can ‘easily’ go on holiday in Europe etc. Ultimately selfish reasons.

    What I have found myself doing once I have got them to that point is I have said to each of them that I would like to put them in a room with some of the 50% unemployed Greek 18-25 year olds (or similar Portuguese, Spanish etc) for an hour and tell them how great the EU is. Their eyes glaze over when I ask “How do you think that would go then?”.

    Only one other Remainer friend said something different and original, which was that the only real reason he voted to Remain was that if Leave won, he would have to sack 3 people at the place where he works. And he did have to do this: the company he works for had already said it would be leaving a unit in France open and closing one in UK if Brexit happened. By the way, I pointed out that the flip-side – if remain had won – that his equivalent in the French unit would have had to have done the same thing there anyway – which he agreed was the case – it turns out that the company was going to close one unit whichever the outcome. He had genuinely not thought of that. But again, a selfish reason.

    Every one of them: ultimately selfish. Based on their situation. Not on any facts relating to the main issues.

    *My* main reason for leaving at the time of the referendum was: the demonstrable lack of democratic accountability in the EU and a general gut-feel that the EU is not the right size or shape (or, history, or culture) for what is a nascent country – and that it will end in disaster with extremists and violence coming to the fore (as the Euro currency zone experiment continues to show us in slow-motion!). However since the referendum I’ve learned so much more about the aspects I mentioned above that it’s solidified my view that we’re absolutely damn right to get out.

    Most Leave supporters I know seem to have deep-seated, principled reasons for leaving. Some are more informed than others. Some are down-right wrong about some things. But it seems to be a lack of self-interest and more about principles.

    Most Remainers seem to be acting from pure self-interest but seem to be less informed about facts and detail. Not evil (well most of them are not). But are blinded by the fake trinkets the EU seems (to them) to offer.

    I want them to feel shame when I talk to them at length about it all.

  6. “the right thing to do” has a special meaning only revealed to the illuminati and the rest of us must bow our knee and obey the enlightened instructions of our European masters.

  7. Actual democracy rarely produces “vast” majorities on complex issues as any largeish society will contain conflicting interest groups, which are more or less difficult to reconcile. The phrase therefore often implies a sampling only of the speaker’s limited circle of friends.

  8. @ Tom
    That is because on the wide swathe of issues on which there is a vast majority one way or the other, it is extremely rare that the minority forces a public vote. That would be even more stupid than the average politician: their method is to infiltrate the civil service, the media and then MPs so that the lumpenproletariat is suddenly presented with a fait accompli. Hence the abolition of capital punishment to prevent the execution of innocents (years later Hanratty’s family’s claim that he was innocent was blown out of the water by DNA evidence) resulting in an increase in the number of innocent people murdered each year greater than the total number of murderers hanged since 1951.

  9. The last two-and-a-half years have been the biggest mass gaslighting campaign in history.

    You mean the last forty years surely.

    The evolution of the EU has been the greatest exercise in negating people’s democratic rights.

  10. , so would a plurality again.

    What on earth do you mean by that….oh you mean fewer people who would vote remain – which is a fact

  11. Remain is collapsed Facepainter. The 16 million are long gone. Two and one half years of remain shite, EU scummery and Treason May’s antics have removed all decent democratic believers and sane people/non-traitors from your own ranks. 2-3 million WOMI pukes like you persist.

  12. RLJ,

    If there’s one thing that has convinced me that Brexit was the right decision it’s being told that the case for the EU is so “glaringly obvious” that no supporting evidence is necessary.

    But nobody is making the case for the political union, all we keep hearing about is reasons why Brexit is bad (and that was the case in the run up to the referendum).

    We keep being told that trade deals are good, we know that because lots of countries enter in to them even though they are WTO members. What they don’t tell us why we need to be in a political union for them to work.

    Lockers is right, most people I know who voted Remain were just after an easy life and couldn’t be bothered to think about it or engage with the issues. When challenged they would trot out lines about how awful Farage and Boris are and then parrot Project Fear, but it was never about the issues. Nothing but a bunch of sheeple.

  13. A small omission which I have corrected:

    And so we end up with an act of wilful self destruction, which is what Brexit is. The vast majority of people who receive EU grants can see that in itself it is glaringly obviously not the right thing to do.

  14. When challenged they would trot out lines about how awful Farage and Boris are and then parrot Project Fear, but it was never about the issues. Nothing but a bunch of sheeple.

    I was never a fan of Nigel Farage, but I did always admire his enthusiasm and dedication over decades to the extinction of the EU and his own job as an MEP. Gotta admire that. Equally, Boris Johnson or BoJo as I prefer to call him is nothing but an egotistical opportunist.

    Having said all of that I still believe that voting to Leave the European Union was the right choice. I’ve believed that for decades based upon the same fundamental objections as Tony Benn of all people. Fundamentally I oppose unelected bureaucracy / power that I cannot get rid of through the ballot box.

    The problems of bureaucratic overstretch, financial cost, immigration, federalism and outright totalitarianism are just more nails in the coffin.

    The EU is dead. Can’t we just bury it and move on?

  15. I was never a fan of Nigel Farage, but I did always admire his enthusiasm and dedication over decades to the extinction of the EU and his own job as an MEP. Gotta admire that. Equally, Boris Johnson or BoJo as I prefer to call him is nothing but an egotistical opportunist.

    My own sentiments. I’ve joined the Conservative party so that I can vote against Boris should he be on the slate.

  16. I had a good rummage through all sorts of polls the other day.No Deal’ is strongly favoured by only 19% but strongly opposed by a whopping 54% (with others unsure and so on). A second vote is ferociously polarizing, with the 41% strongly favouring, matched by 39% strongly against
    The least divisive outcome by far is …“.Britain leaving the EU but with a new deal within the customs union and single market”. 70% express support lukewarm support and indifference.

    That would seem a reasonable compromise to me but then I am not an extremist fruitcake or closet racist

  17. So despite the fact that No Deal is the most disliked outcome polled ( see above) the world’s greatest intellect ( by which I can only mean Ian Duncan Smith ….snicker) claimed only yesterday it is favoured by the “ vast majority”
    Is he actually counting poundage of Brexit voter I mean they do tend to be fat but really can you do it that way ?
    The straight remain / Brexit toss up is still showing a solid remain lead 10% ( You Gov) and the most up to date is OBR 48% remain 42% Brexit
    Now I will be the first to admit that it is astonishing that so many people cannot get this right but I think its become a bit “ I`m not coming out “……
    “ Come on dear its ok to admit you are wrong ”
    “ No I`m never coming out never never not if I starve”

    Which as we see may take a while
    So Tim you were telling me about a plurality ….. you haven`t got mixed up between plurality and minority have you they are different words you see , you can tell by the spelling ……

  18. Am I right in saying that remainers are unique in history? I can’t recall another occasion when one class of people virulently hated their fellow countrymen for wanting to restore democracy. What would the founding fathers have thought if many Americans, their fledgling media and the aristocracy had risen up and declared war against their fellow citizens for trying to leave British rule?

    Mind you, Sarah Palin caught some flak…

    But who thinks Ghandi is a bit of a shit for wanting to get rid of the British?

  19. There are all sorts of this about the EU which are good. But there are all sorts of things which are bad. But the point is that in general the good things are not dependent on the EU, whereas the bad things are. The EU’s determination to prevent us benefitting from any of the good stuff, even as it harms their own citizens, makes me angrier and angrier, and confirms for me the rotten nature of the organisation.

  20. Who TF is Newms? Some sort of fuckwit Mini-me Facepainter?

    Well piss on you both–or if it is you off the meds again Facepaint–double piss on you.

    The polls are done by leftist remainiac trash and were long ago weaponised. Go look at the patterns of skidmarks on your underpants and see if you can divine the future from that augury you treasonous pile of cellular pustulence.

  21. if memory serves me right he wasn’t such a big fan of the eu (particularly it’s treatment of greece) Miraculously that all changed when the eu stuffed his mouth with geld. As in all things he’s the ultimate hypocrite

  22. In another place somebody was explaining the European Parliament’s functions.
    So I replied: so, essentially a weakened House of Lords
    Reply: oh no, completely different, its only functions are advising the executive.

    Which just re-inforces the anti-democracy argument. What’s the point of electing a body that can’t even do anything? My parish council seems to have more power than the EU Parliament.

  23. @ Grist
    There were some examples (maybe dearieme can quote them) of Greek city states having rebellions against democracy and restoring oligarchy or autocracy (pendants will say tyranny but their definition of tyranny was different)

  24. Who TF is Newms?

    Some members of the ‘liberal elite’ can’t spell their own pseudonyms under pressure

  25. Is Newmania (or whatever misspelled version of his ‘handle’ he’s hammering into his iPhone) James O’Brien?

  26. Grist – Am I right in saying that remainers are unique in history? I can’t recall another occasion when one class of people virulently hated their fellow countrymen for wanting to restore democracy.

    Post-normal politics, innit.

    To be “progressive” now means working to permanently impoverish the working class through eco-tithes and destructive immigration, pimping out our country to distant transnational bureaucracies and politically-connected multinationals, and furiously denouncing any attempt to restore democratic accountability to our system of government.

    While being “conservative” means the same thing.

  27. BiND,
    While I concede your point, I do feel that saying leaving is “glaringly obviously” wrong is logically the same as saying remaining is “glaringly obviously” right.

    If a decision is “glaringly obvious” then it is “glaringly obvious” in both directions.

  28. I think in an ideal world my solution would be to remain in as the organisation morphed into a Free Trade area and retain the elements (Erasmus or Cleaner Beaches) that at least in the main worked while abolishing the entire institutional edifice of the CAP/ CFP and an overwhelming mass of legislation that simply does not work. In practical terms, ideally this would have involved remaining in while ignoring adverse ECJ judgements and simply refusing to implement EU directives which were not in our national interest (basically acting like France and Italy have for decades) then when the edifice comes crashing done head off with the Northern European and Baltic states to rejoin a new EFTA with countries of like mind that would arise from the Ashes.

    However, as many are aware – that option simply is not on the table. The drive towards a Federal superstate continues and there is no sign of a change of direction. Listen to Macron’s latest speech on Monday – an EU wide minimum wage? WTF is that? Therefore, having been reluctantly ‘Remain’ for some of the selfish reasons outlined by Lockers in his superb post, I have come to the conclusion that we need to get out now, and risk the massive disruption that might ensue. It seems to be the only way to ‘cleanse the Augean stables’ of Blairite PC idiots who seem, to have brought us to the current pass. It’s an opportunity for renewal. For the ‘Remain’ troll on here, I see no way the EU can survive any of the coming crises – Target 2 collapse, possible FN/ AFD administrations in France/ Germany, Algeria, Refugee crisis 1, Baltic annexation by Russia, Global recession – in its current form

  29. There is more joy in Heaven VP–you know the rest.

    Well done. Any personal gain would only have been temporary. Evil can only destroy and is merciless –even to its friends.

    There are no special Facepainting snowflakes on the EUs team. Only useful idiots whose temporary usefulness causes the heavy hand of ruin and tyranny to stay awhile.

    There is only one Globo Elite and they do not share power–esp not with WOMI loser Facepainting fuckwits.

  30. The drive towards a Federal superstate continues…..

    The EU disburses about 1% the annual UK government spend.
    have you really got nothing more pressing to worry about ?

  31. “Am I right in saying that remainers are unique in history? I can’t recall another occasion when one class of people virulently hated their fellow countrymen for wanting to restore democracy.”

    US War of Independence had plenty of people fighting with the British.

    You have to recognise that there’s a lot of people who have jobs, businesses, connections related to being members of the EU. And more broadly, people attached to the current establishment. These people like doctors, lawyers and the arts do not want an end to the current establishment. It might be fine for them, but the new establishment might decide to have different establishment pets. Maybe it will deregulate the legal and medical trades. Maybe it’ll spend money on a different group of arts rather than the current favoured groups.

  32. Facepainter–The ESpew spends vastly more than that on bribes. Disburse yourself sideways.

    BoM4–Lots of American traitors loyal to a foreign power were driven out to Canada. The idea has merit with Mollenbeek (sic) standing in for Canada. Which already has enough WOMI traitors of it own.

  33. Grist
    ” What would the founding fathers have thought if many Americans, their fledgling media and the aristocracy had risen up and declared war against their fellow citizens for trying to leave British rule?”
    They were called Loyalists (loyal to the Crown) as opposed to the revolutionary Patriots, and made up nearly half the population of the Colonies, and indeed included many landowners, and media (pamphlets and newspapers etc. I suspect)

  34. Newmania

    Actually you have a point – so far the drive has in financial terms been limited but presumably you read the Macron speech, and are well – versed in the utterances of the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt? Do you seriously think they don’t want a Federal Superstate?

  35. The EU disburses about 1% the annual UK government spend.

    A statistic often bandied about by moronic Remainiacs. Real governments have to pay for pensions, health, education, defence, … The EU needs only to pay for a few tens of thousands of fonctionnaires to sit in their shiny suits at shiny desks in front of shiny screens writing memos to each other and then passing random bits of legislation (almost certainly based on whichever corporate lobbyist last bought them a slap-up lunch), that 500 million people are then required to obey.

    The single biggest item of EU expenditure is probably keeping Druncker’s drinks cabinet stocked (but that must run well into seven figures).

  36. So Are EU really as stupidly intransigent as they currently appear over the deal and backstop or is it all just theatre to try and make a last minute minor concession seem bigger than it is so they canpush the deal through

  37. Why would the EU need to make any concessions when they have the support of a massive fifth column inside parliament and the civil service? People openly visiting Barnier to receive their instructions?

  38. Real governments have to pay for pensions, health, education, defence

    Yes because we are not governed by the Eu- my point I think , ( moron)

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