Well, yes, and what is to be done?

Sharron Davies: Vladimir Putin could send his tenth best man to win a sack of medals as a woman
Sharron Davies has competed in an uneven field. She explains to Martyn Ziegler why she wants strict controls on transgender athletes.

Reality being that bit that doesn’t go away when you wake up. So, what’s the solution?

Well, either women’s sport continues to exist or there are some rules beyond self-declaration on what is a woman. And the societal answer is going to be?

46 comments on “Well, yes, and what is to be done?

  1. The thing that confuses me is that we are endlessly told that gender is not binary. It’s a spectrum. Apparently.
    So presumably that implies at one extreme end of the spectrum lie people who are male by sex, male by gender and self identify as men. Let’s call this group ‘men’. At the other extreme are people who are female by sex, female by gender and self identify as women. Let’s call this group ‘women’. I think these two polar extremes cover 99.99% of the population.
    And right along that non-binary spectrum in the middle lie 0.01% of us. So my solution is simple:
    1 competition for ‘men’;
    1 competition for ‘women’; and
    1 competition for ‘other’.
    All the genderspazzed he-shes can have their own category. It’s NOT binary you know. 😉

  2. The fight over women’s sport is because of statist interventions. If we scrapped the Olympics, put the BBC into private hands and generally stopped the government pushing pro-women’s sport politics, none of this would be a problem. Women’s sport would be very amateur, almost no bloke would care about cheating to win in, and without the money, the sort of committees running it could just arbitrarily tell someone with hairy bollocks to fuck off.

    The only women’s sport I care about ice skating. Reasonably pretty young, athletic women doing a dance in a few clothes. Works better than men doing it. And there’s a demand for it in the free market (a lot more women go and pay good money to watch ice shows than any sport)

  3. BOM4
    Also women’s beach volleyball.

    Re. The point in general

    I think the same should apply for drugs in sport.
    One class for clean – if you’re found cheating, lose all titles ever, lifetime ban. Top 3 finishers tested at every stage of major comps.
    Another for drug enhanced – take whatever you want, however you want.

    Though I do look forward to a country like Russia fielding a bloke with a beard and balls at an Olympics and romping all the medals. Will make me laugh.

  4. And the societal answer is going to be?

    Depends on whether actual society gets to answer, or the lunatics who believe they represent it do.

    You will get two polar opposite answers.

  5. ‘And the societal answer is going to be?’

    It’s only a problem to Lefties, with their disparate coalition.

    Non-Lefties say trannies can’t compete with women. There, it’s that simple. No angst or anxiety with the decision; it’s rather obvious.

    In Before NiV.

  6. Have a look at the claims about people gaming the disability rules to compete in paraolympics and you can see where the gender issues are going to go
    As previous poster pointed out once there’s money involved (and diversity police have made sure advertisers have to feature disabled atheletes) people will try and manipulate the system to their advantage

  7. “Generations of hard work cultivating women’s sports, oceans of money spent, and ‘transgender activists’ will burn it all to the ground in a matter of months. Women’s sports are over, feminists. You lost an intersectional squabble with a more preferred victim group.” John Hayward

  8. I believe economists have a term “crowding out”

    Once it becomes clear what the game is, you could easily get “women’s” sports entirely overrun with the “in-betweeners”.

    “Ordinary”, even olympian but ordinary, women won’t get a look in.

  9. Well, either women’s sport continues to exist or there are some rules beyond self-declaration on what is a woman.

    Did you mean “continues”? The sense is opposite, surely the word should be “ceases”.

    If you don’t start enforcing “what is a woman” rules, then women’s sports will cease to exist because it will be dominated by ‘men-things’ (insert PC term here).

  10. “tenth best man”

    I would have thought that anyone who was good enough, and put enough work in, to be the tenth best athlete in his field in Russia probably has more self respect.

    No need for the tenth best man to waste his time anyway, the worst professional male athlete would probably suffice but Sharon probably doesn’t want to admit that..

  11. I’m more profoundly concerned by the question of boobs. Since we have a convention that moobs (male) are not obscene but boobs(female) are obscene, where are we with shirtlessness and swimsuits?

    If I declare as a woman, are my moobs now boobs, and unsuitable for public display? May a woman declare as a man and go topless on beaches, in the streets and on our building sites?

    If I see a topless person, how must I react without a confirmation of their gender identity and, once revealed, must I moderate my emotional reaction appropriately?

    I think we have a right to know.

  12. No need for the tenth best man to waste his time anyway, the worst professional male athlete would probably suffice but Sharon probably doesn’t want to admit that..

    Yeah, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of male sprinters who could beat the 2016 Olympic women’s 100M gold medal winning time of 10.71 seconds. That time wouldn’t even qualify for the finals at the California high school track championships.

  13. “And the societal answer is going to be? ”
    Surely this is a question for NiV. He’s the resident geezer-in-.frocks expert

  14. It’s also kinda funny how she invokes Putin as a universal boogeyman in this, seeing as how tranniemania is pretty much a western thing.

  15. In Canada it is not illegal for a woman to be topless in public as the courts have ruled that would count as sex discrimination as shirtless men are allowed

  16. “An XX/XY chromosome test should be the starting and, possibly, end point.”

    This.

    It was for decades.

  17. They have rules, they were introduced at least 2 Olympic Games ago, since when not one TG athlete has qualified for the Games, let Alain’s reached a final or won a medal.

    Yes, they are changing the rules to allow TG athletes to compete prior to surgery, but they are also strengthening the rules, mainly because of intersex athletes.

    Perhaps it might be better to wait to see if any problems arise rather than respond to imagined fears, in most part instigated by those who far greater objections and bias against the TG community that their participation in sports.

  18. Ian B –very glad indeed to see you back mate. Your contributions have been missed–at least by me.

    One more time–the left give not a shite for the mentally confused. They have picked the mugs up because they can use then to lever Marxist subjectivist evil into law. Not 2+2=5 if socialism says so but men=women and vice versa. Enforced with the stink of the jailhouse.

    If they succeed they all sorts of evil “realities” are on their manifestation list–a big one being their “truth” that the cunt’s haven’t massacred 150 million people.

  19. Josephine–and I am one of those people as the posting shows above shows. Athletics is of Zero importance. Smashing socialist evil is all that matters.

  20. ‘Perhaps it might be better to wait to see if any problems arise rather than respond to imagined fears’

    Where have you been? Trannies have been winning women’s events for years. There’s the problem. Easy to find examples on duh net.

    Trannies should not be allowed in women’s events. Period. XX to enter; Y chromosome and you’re out.

  21. You lost an intersectional squabble with a more preferred victim group.

    Yes. Enter the arena, abide by the rules.

    It’s also kinda funny how she invokes Putin as a universal boogeyman in this

    Yes, or almost clever – the deranged she is trying to reach will be unsettled by the trannies-Putin thing…their herd instinct is to fall on her in a welter of woke celebrity blood-letting but perhaps they’ll be checked by the Putin thing…perhaps better if she had chosen Orange Bad Man.

  22. It’s one of those interesting philosophical things which has had philosophers head scratching right back to Plato. We all know there are different distinct things but how do you define those things? We all know chairs and tables are different things, but it’s impossible to get a watertight definition of either of them. There will always be a grey area.

    The Proggies then conclude, wrongly, that this disproves the existence of chairs and tables, and you can simply have a chair declare itself a table, and you’re a bigot if you sit on it instead of eating dinner off it. That’s no use.

    Idealstic rationalists on the other hand insist that chairs and tables are distinctly definable and it’s just a matter of getting the right definition. That’s wrong too.

    So one way to look at this is that it’s not actually grey area thing here. Most chairs and tables are clearly one or the other. The problem is chairs declaring themselves tables (which they have a right to do) and insisting everyone else agree (which they don’t). The problem here is that the said chairs, are clearly identifiable as chairs but demanding to be treated as tables. So definitions are no use. We already have a good enough idea of what a chair is. (Which is in fact based on the phenotype not the genotype. Hence the desire of transies to surgically alter their appearance).

    The issue is simply one of whether a chair can declare itself a table, or whether it is for others to look at it and decide it is a chair and say it can’t join the table club.

    Or you could just go by physical characteristics like boxing and thus could get rid of the sexes altogether; like, people of the same physical ability (within a class) get to compete. Of course that might lead to something akin to racial segregation , since Equatorial Africans are phenotypically superior in running events to podgy Europeans and so on.

  23. “Or you could just go by physical characteristics like boxing and thus could get rid of the sexes altogether; like, people of the same physical ability (within a class) get to compete. Of course that might lead to something akin to racial segregation , since Equatorial Africans are phenotypically superior in running events to podgy Europeans and so on.”

    Compare the final of the 100M Track Sprint to the 100M Front crawl.

  24. This particular aspect of the Men-in-frocks debate could prove an interesting one. There’s a presumption in this debate that this is something for the sports authorities to chose. It’s not going to be their choice.
    Sport, at the higher end, is essentially part of the entertainment industry. It’s largely funded by the sale of tickets to events & the sale of TV rights, indirectly via the media co’s*, to the viewing public. (The public either pay with money or by viewing ads – makes no difference) So whether the men-in-frilly knickers can contend in women’s events is going to depend on whether events with them in can attract audiences. No bums on (virtual) seats, no money, no events. Que sera sera.
    *Yeah. OK. BBC. But even Aunty worries about viewing figures

  25. And NiV our “woke” correspondent. What exactly is the participation rate of hermaphrodites in major sport? Between zero & ? %?

  26. “The problem here is that the said chairs, are clearly identifiable as chairs but demanding to be treated as tables.”

    The problem here is that they’re part chair, part table. Saw a chair and table in half, and glue the parts of each together, and the result is neither chair nor table, but can only be said to be either “both”, or “neither”.

    Glue them together but then arrange the result so you can only see the table-shaped half, and you may assert as much as you like “That’s a table”, it doesn’t make it true. Only someone able to see *both* sides of the object would know the truth.

    And if you can see only one side of it and see what appears to be a table, but your acquaintance you know can see both sides and assures you that it is half table, half chair, then it takes spectacular self-assurance to assert that you are right and they are wrong, and either the other side doesn’t exist or is really table-shaped or that there is no difference between tables and chairs on that side, or that your side is all that matters to the definition.

    You can’t see somebody’s mind/brain, but you say you can tell better than the person living in it what form it is! Pretty arrogant.

    “Or you could just go by physical characteristics like boxing and thus could get rid of the sexes altogether; like, people of the same physical ability (within a class) get to compete.”

    Finally! A sensible suggestion!

  27. “The issue is simply one of whether a chair can declare itself a table, or whether it is for others to look at it and decide it is a chair and say it can’t join the table club.”

    This.

    They can dress up and ponce around all they like. They are phony women and they don’t invade women’s spaces–not the bogs or changing rooms or women’s sports.

    Enforced by whatever degree of “enforcement” is required.

    My tech skills were not up to capturing from Twitter a picture of a fat Desperate-Dan-in-drag entity boasting about “Lets jerk off in women’s toilets to upset the TERFs”. To give the lie to NiV’s shite about how harmless they are.

  28. You can’t see somebody’s mind/brain, but you say you can tell better than the person living in it what form it is! Pretty arrogant.

    Mentally ill people are not reliable judges of their own reality. For instance, anorexics think that they’re grotesquely fat, even as they starve to death. To indulge them in their delusions is cruel, not kind.

  29. The societal answer is simple. Have separate sports for trannies. The men going as girls will win them all eventually, but, hey, they are “female” so it is a separate class of female & who can complain about the fems getting an extra league.

  30. You can’t see somebody’s mind/brain, but you say you can tell better than the person living in it what form it is! Pretty arrogant.

    Ooh, ooh. Can i play this game too?

    You can’t see how someone’s brain works, percieves and understands things, but you can tell better than them how they should do those things.
    Ie. You Think That’s a man in a dress but you’re wrong because in my world it’s actually a woman with a penis.

    Pretty arrogant.

    Your turn.

  31. “My tech skills were not up to capturing from Twitter a picture of a fat Desperate-Dan-in-drag entity boasting about “Lets jerk off in women’s toilets to upset the TERFs”. To give the lie to NiV’s shite about how harmless they are.”

    Allow me.

    “Mentally ill people are not reliable judges of their own reality. For instance, anorexics think that they’re grotesquely fat, even as they starve to death.”

    But TGs are not mentally ill, and they’re not deluded. You are.

    It’s half table, half chair. You can only see the table half and think it’s a table, but you’re wrong. They’re fully aware of their own reality. You’re only aware of half of it.

    “Ooh, ooh. Can i play this game too?”

    I don’t know. Can you?

    “You can’t see how someone’s brain works, percieves and understands things, but you can tell better than them how they should do those things.”

    Non sequitur.

    Do what things?

    “Ie. You Think That’s a man in a dress but you’re wrong because in my world it’s actually a woman with a penis.”

    Me: That’s a person with the brain of a woman but the (externally visible) body of a man. They have anatomical features characteristic of both sexes in different parts of the body. And society generally considers characteristics of the brain to define the legal person.

    You: You’re deluded! They have the externally visible body of a man!

    Me: That’s what I said.

    You: !!?

  32. I like it, tex. The TLPGA, Trans Ladies Professional Golf Association.

    Finding tournament sponsors might be difficult.

  33. Niv–Wrong photo fuckwit. Two extreme outliers –if they are even genuine as your SJW pals can’t stop lying–mean sod all. Most trannies are Desperate Dans. Not at all hard to spot–no fuckwit id needed. The actual photo was of one such. Shame you have no daughters–I’m guessing but a good one I think–to share a bog with the fellow in the photo+his obvious contempt and animosity towards actual real women.

  34. “Two extreme outliers –if they are even genuine as your SJW pals can’t stop lying–mean sod all.”

    And you think you’re one extreme outlier doesn’t? You think your transphobic pals are not lying?

    Outliers or not; your rules would still put the first in the gents and the second in the ladies. Admit it. That’s what you’re demanding.

    “+his obvious contempt and animosity towards actual real women.”

    Feminists, you mean.

  35. Feministoscum who have made the feeblest of anti-SJW moves and had the wrath of SJW scum unleashed on them. Still more women than pretending men.

  36. “Feministoscum…”

    Oh, goodness me! “Obvious contempt and animosity towards actual real women.” 🙂

  37. “So whether the men-in-frilly knickers can contend in women’s events is going to depend on whether events with them in can attract audiences. No bums on (virtual) seats, no money, no events.”

    Sadly this won’t be correct. Its already the case that in many sports the women’s version is subsidised into existence by the popularity of the mens game. Football, cricket, rugby, none would exist for women other than at a very low level amateur club level if it were purely down to bums on seats. The usual suspects start shaking down the mens game on the usual basis – give us cash or we’ll call you bigots, sexists etc etc, and the men in charge always fold for an easy life.

    Cricket is my game – if I wanted to see cricket played at the level of the England Ladies Team I’d go and watch an amateur village team play, the level would be somewhere close. I’m not going to part with any money to do so for sure.

  38. “But TGs are not mentally ill, and they’re not deluded”

    My friend who has schizophrenia also thinks there’s nothing wrong with him, and is quite pissed off that the mental health keep sectioning him, and jabbing him full of anti-psychotic drugs.

    I suppose if he refuses his meds and starts rambling on about how he’s King Arthur, and there’s a volcano under his house thats about to blow, that there’s two entities that control the universe called Green and Blue, and that there’s a voice in his head called The Sarge (all stuff I’ve personally experienced from him) we should just let him get on with it? After all his version of reality might be the real one, right?

    Or could we conclude that wanting to mutilate your body is not the actions of a sane person, and work from there?

  39. “Or could we conclude that wanting to mutilate your body is not the actions of a sane person, and work from there?”

    We could. But then we’d have to section everyone who got surgery to correct a hare lip, or similar congenital deformities. We’d have to section everyone who sought cosmetic surgery – face lifts, boob jobs, nose jobs, lip plumping, etc. We’d have to section everyone who sought piercings or tattoos. If changing your appearance to emphasise or change natural sexual signals is insanity, should we allow girls to wear make-up? And so on.

    If a girl suddenly grows a beard, due to a naturally occurring medical condition, should she be considered insane for wanting to remove it? She argues that she’s mentally a female, but the beard gives her a male appearance which she finds distressing. Should we say tough luck, that’s the way you was born, and it’s wrong for you to want to change your appearance to fit in with your mental image of what you feel you should look like? Or do we say with Mill: “Over himself, over his body and mind, the individual is sovereign”?

    There’s nothing wrong with people wanting to change their own physical appearance. People do it all the time, often for the most trivial of reasons. The issue in this case is that certain individuals don’t approve of other people’s choices, don’t accept that anyone could reasonably choose that way, and want to use the most coercive state powers available to force their views on others.

    The idea of using the mental health apparatus to attack one’s political enemies has a long history. Stalin had people locked up in asylums for the insanity of being right-wing, of being anti-soviet. And for many years even in Britain people were tortured for being homosexual, as part of so-called ‘aversion therapy’.

    Remember my main point – whatever tools you use on your own political enemies will one day be used on you. If you choose to live in a society of a boot stamping on a human face, then some of the time it will stamp on you. How hard do you think it would be to declare homophobia and transphobia to be delusional medical conditions, a form of mental illness that could potentially lead the sufferer to pose a danger to TGs and homosexuals, and therefore to be treated by force for the safety of the rest of society?

    I think that would be wrong and don’t want it to happen. But if you open the door to declaring lifestyles and personal choices you simply don’t like or don’t approve of to be declared mental illnesses requiring involuntary loss of freedom, then it is inevitable that the SJWs will pick up the same weapon and use it against you. It’s just a matter of time.

    There’s nothing unreasonable or implausible about what either TGs or homosexuals say about their own mental state. Developmental changes in the womb have caused bits of the brain to develop in the pattern of the other sex, for reasons which in general terms are quite common and reasonably well understood. It’s pure prejudice to compare it to obvious irrationality.

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