Which planet is Will Hutton living on?

Mr Cameron does not know his own country. His apology for “the uncertainty and division that followed” the referendum result is an attempt to keep alive the fiction that it had to be called – only its conduct was mistaken. Wrong. There was no widespread call for a renegotiated relationship with the EU in the country in 2013 when he made his fateful decision.

This four years after Ukip came second in the euro elections and one year before they came first?

No widespread call, eh?

62 comments on “Which planet is Will Hutton living on?

  1. Cameron had to call it because UKIP split so many seats in 2010.

    That was largely his fault. People might have preferred UKIP for the EU, but people vote for other reasons too. But the Conservatives under Cameron just sold themselves as more Blair.

    Michael Howard would have got a majority in 2010.

  2. And if you’re going to call people “fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists”, you’re not going to get them voting for you any time soon.

  3. I’ve never heard such horse shit in all my life.
    “No widespread call”!
    There’s 17.4 million people who think differently.
    How do you account for Ukip’s popularity before the referendum and the popularity of the Brexit Party after the referendum?
    He’s on an entirly different planet from the rest of us.
    Brexit derangement syndrome writ large.

  4. This type of thinking existed prior to the referendum.

    I can recall some NPC renainers pushing the line that no one wanted the referendum and it was just a waste of time and money that was just being pushed by media barons.

    I knew then during the campaign that such delusion would only damage someones effectiveness to campaign and forecast the feeling in the country.

    After this the same delusion mutated to something about the bus, lies and 30 years of rw propaganda that produced the result.

    These people have such a link ( we all do to an extent) between their professed values, ability to analyse and ego they routinely fail to consider they may be wrong. Post referendum result I see a lot of people confuse values for analysis and continue to live on a different planet and be shocked that reality doesn’t conform to them .

  5. “There was no widespread call for a renegotiated relationship with the EU….”

    He’s quite right. There was little or no call for a “renegotiated relationship”.

    There was a major and growing call for us to leave entirely and have nothing whatsoever to do with them…..

  6. “He’s quite right. There was little or no call for a “renegotiated relationship”.”

    I think there was. I think there were more people who wanted to stay in, but with a loose relationship. If Cameron had come back from negotiations with something, we probably would have stayed in.

  7. ” There was no widespread call for a renegotiated relationship with the EU from any of the people I know in 2013 when he made his fateful decision.”

    Fixed it for him.

  8. I have given up trying to understand why people like Hutton or Harperson or that numpty Swinson spend so much time reinventing history, so that they can easily be called out on it. I suppoe they are only preaching to their converted, no one else is listening.

    Cameron could have avoided having to resign by staying neutral during the campaign and might well have pushed a May-like deal through Parlianent. It just goe to show that even supposed professionals can be cack-handed.

  9. It’s “nobody I know voted for Nixon”, but because it’s Wilbert Hutton it comes with a side dish of bufonidal pomposity.

  10. No call for a change of relationship with the EU.
    Our relationship with the EU won’t change.
    Leavers didn’t know what they voted for.
    Only Vote Leave lied.
    The rich promoted Brexit.
    Ooh those Russians!
    All the Leavers are dead now.
    No one voted for Hard Brexit.
    Etc etc.

    Another lying Establishment prick. Same arseholes, same lies.

  11. There was no widespread call

    It wasn’t in the Guardian or the BBC, or the tiny privileged enclave in which Hutton lives. This is literally the limits to his world, anything outside of that is a different universe to him.

  12. If we go back to 2015 and look at U Gov figures on the most important issues facing the country(pick 3) , the overall position was this :
    Economy 55
    Health 45
    Immigration 47
    Welfare 32
    Housing 21
    Europe 15
    Tax 11
    Environment 9
    Crime 7
    Childcare 8
    Transport 3
    Not one of these 1
    Don`t know 1

    That same poll now has Europe close to the top for obvious reasons so it seems fair to quote it
    What this shows is that firstly Will Hutton was right there was no widespread call for the first referendum which was primarily a matter of Conservative Party internal politics and because of the way FPTP punishes a split vote so disproportionately .
    The call for a “third ” referendum ” is much much more in evidence now

    What it also shows is that for the Leave side to interest anyone in a constitutional question it had to wrap it up with other issues which were genuine concerns , one is immigration, the other is the economy ( and specifically the long stagnation of wages and public sector

    This is why the Leave campaign focused so much on Turkey inventing the outright ie that it was about to join and millions of Muslims, many of them actually Syrian( eeek gasp!) would soon be clamouring to live next door
    It is also why it claimed an outright boost to the exchequer of £19bn pa an outrageous lie imn any terms at all

    So we can see that the Leave vote was not incidentally reliant on anti immigrant and racist material , without it and the promise of more funds Europe is a matter of little interest
    Essentially this is what has happened and this why the Brexit Reich can never be accepted – its foundations are lies it was never a response to a democratic need and ( obviously ) it is a very bad thing in terms of prosperity trade business , services , international security and prestige not only of this country but of Western Liberal values themselves

    Glad to help

  13. “This is why the Leave campaign focused so much on Turkey inventing the outright ie that it was about to join ”

    It WAS NOT a lie !

    Turkey was very close to accession and had been negotiating for years. Cameron suppported Turkey’s candidature (in fact so did I, because of the inevitable chaos that it would cause). I was living in Austria at the time and the politicos there (of all parties) were very preoccupied with the issue. Erdogan’s clampdown after the false-flag coup attempt scuppered the whole process.

    I suppose the Euro Army was a lie too ?

  14. A lot of people have miraculously located this yougov poll from 2015. Where did they find it? I suspect they have invented it. For one thing it doesn’t correspond with this data from 30 January 2015
    https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/internationalism-or-isolationism-chatham-house-yougov-survey

    “Public support for a referendum on membership of the EU has changed little since the last edition of the survey and remains high at 60%, with 24% opposed. Opinion-formers are narrowly opposed, with 50% against and 46% in favour.”

  15. On second thoughts there is no conflict. I suppose if you are asked specifically about an issue rather than asked to tick a selection from dozens of random things you are going to get different results. It is quite easy to want an EU referendum whilst thinking that the economy and housing and the incompetence of Mark Carnage are more important.

  16. Hutton couldn’t be more wrong. The idea of a UK referendum on EU membership had been part of our political conversation since at least 1983 – when Tony Blair was first elected on a Labour manifesto promising an exit from Europe.

    Blair promised a referendum on the EU constitution in 2005, only to renege on it once re-elected (and the EU constitution re-packaged as the Lisbon Treaty).

    Nick Clegg called for ‘a real referendum’ on Europe (ie In/Out) in 2008, with Caroline Lucas following suit in 2011.  

    That a referendum was promised but not delivered fuelled the rise of UKIP, who came second in the 2009 European elections and first in 2014 on an explicitly ‘Leave’ ticket.

    So Cameron’s referendum finally delivered on what the public had been promised – by parties of all stripes – for years.

  17. “Health 45
    Immigration 47
    Welfare 32
    Housing 21”

    Now which one thing impacts all of those concerns exactly? Could it be that allowing millions of people to flood into the UK from the poorer parts of the EU might just conceivably have a negative impact of the availability of healthcare, housing and welfare?

  18. Newmania- i have to say I was a bit puzzled why David called it, I agree it didn’t seem absolutely necessary. But i reckon its not contradictory with your list of the electorate’s priorities. To clear the decks of a thorny issue frees up the time and space to deal with the priorities you mention. If he could take the wind out the sails of the UKIP and eurosceptics then he could crack on with those objectives and receive the electoral benefit. I also wondered at the time for David to take this step whether ministers had started to give him Europe as a reason for certain policies not being pursued or delays to ones. This was hinted at, especially when the likes of Michael and Boris put themselves up as Leavers, having not been fervent eurosceptics before. I’d be interested to see if this comes up in his diaries. But not that bothered about him thinking Boris and Michael were being ambitious. I mean if it were so it were a grievous fault but one that all politicos suffer from.

  19. That Chatham House /yougov poll from 2015 was quite good really

    “Voters in London and Scotland would vote to stay in the EU, while those in the rest of the South, the Midlands/Wales and Northern England would vote to leave.”

  20. Jim nails the continued propaganda of the ‘New Remainiac’ – as if Health, immigration, welfare and housing were entirely unrelated to the largest migration of people in Europe into one country (EU immigration into the UK) since the Second World War existed simply in isolation. Even Murphy himself might have seen this as a straw man.

    ‘There was no widespread call for a renegotiated relationship with the EU in the country in 2013 when he made his fateful decision’

    There’s a partial element of truth here – European influence over vast swathes of our society was assumed to be a good thing and not widely known about outside ‘establishment’ circles.But if there is one good that has come out of Brexit it has become abundantly clear from the 68 ‘Leave’ notices published by the EU how deeply the establishment (Personified by Hutton) have ensnared us in the European ‘trap’ with no democratic right to do so – and that even with huge propaganda and overwhelming resource being deployed to persuade people to vote for Remaining in they still contrived to lose the first vote granted on continued membership for 41 years. The sheer scale of the effort being deployed to prevent the UK leaving tends to point to the idea that prior to 2013 people had been kept in a somnambulatory state for several decades. Once they woke up, that awakening was likely to be a rude one..

  21. Turkey was never within miles of joining and it has stayed that way .
    Whether this or that country is close to joining is not the point though is it . It was the supposed swarms of Muslims that was the crucial ingredient so as to align leaving this EU with anti Islamic sentiment and general anti Brown people feelings
    .That was necessary because the EU itself was only of interest to a minority
    In fact if you look at the real top concerns Leave tied them all into this racist and xenophobic theme

    1 The economy – you will be richer if we stop giving cash to foreigners
    2 Immigration- The EU wants to let a load of brown people in ( and we are full ! – see poster)
    3- Those same immigrants are hogging all the NHS resources – a point endlessly made

    That was the meat of it , if it has been a referendum about our constitutional and economic arrangements the remain would have easily won . As it was it became about ethnic communitariansim ..Fascism really

  22. Some nice words here from John Redwood about Mr Cameron, further trampling over the newmanian revisionist thesis

    “I don’t like to think of David still worrying about the consequences of what he put in train. He should remember that the Lib Dems called for a referendum on In or Out of Europe . Labour supported the legislation he put forward to give us a referendum. 544 MPs voted for the actual referendum we held. The main parties at one time or another have all favoured a referendum, understanding that the mighty Treaties we have signed between our original membership and today did need to be put to the UK electorate directly.”

    http://commentcentral.co.uk/last-of-the-summer-whine/

  23. Turkey was never within miles of joining and it has stayed that way

    In 2016, the EU signed an agreement with Turkey promising full, visa-free access to Europe for 80 million Turks.

  24. “if it had been a referendum about our constitutional and economic arrangements the remain would have easily won”

    So, in effect, you useless cretins completely fucked up? Couldn’t even run a simple referendum competently? And you think you can run “an empire”? Go on, admit it, you’re a Lib Dem, aren’t you?

  25. MC

    Good summary of the anti-leave tropes.

    “All the Leavers are dead now” is a beauty. The UK death rate is c.600,000 pa. So some c.2m people since June 2016. Even assuming (incorrectly) that all of those deaths are of people aged 65+, at least 40% (c.800,000) were remainers. Meanwhile, c.700,000 people turn 18 each year, or c.2.3m since the referendum. But 30% of these new voters are likely to vote Leave – ie c.690,000.

    So, roughly, leave has lost 1.2m voters but gained 0.69m – a net loss of c.510,000 – and remain has gained 1.5m potential voters but lost 0.8m – a net gain of 0.7m.

    So, in a second referendum (perish the thought!) Leave’s vote might slip from 17,410,742 to c.16,901,000, while Remain’s vote might rise from 16,141,241 to c.16,840,000. However, obviously, demography is not turn-out.

  26. Re: Leavers dying off

    Anybody have the stats on how geriatrics voted? All the figures I’ve seen top out at 65+, which is way too young.

    I’ve heard it claimed that the oldest cohort of voters (80+) backed Remain, which makes sense when you think about it (frightened old ladies worrying about their prescriptions)

    Anyone know?

  27. As to the demographics.
    The majority of the old voted remain in 1975. They voted leave in 2016. Hence a chunk of them must have changed their minds in the interim.
    It occurs to me that some of the people who voted remain in 2016 might have had a similar change of mind.
    I notice that remainers are walking away from a second in/out referendum as they are likewise avoiding a general election. So their revealed view is that they would lose, regardless of what they say.

  28. On the basis that Parliament shouldn’t be bothering itself about the EU because no body cared, can we take it that Remainers would be happy for Parliament to neglect and not spend money on the following that were lower down the list:

    “Tax 11
    Environment 9
    Crime 7
    Childcare 8
    Transport 3”

    I’ll wait.

  29. Theophrastus – In every opinion Poll since the beginning of 2017 remain has had a lead over Leave , quite something when you think of the onslaught of ” Oh for god`s sake move on /…. bloody hell not again …” guff exhaled by the Brexit propaganda machine ( backed by both main parties )

    ..and yet we are being frog marched off a cliff because it suits the Conservative Party, an outcome that was claimed to be impossible throughout the referendum and was a million to one only a few days ago.
    John Redwood rigidly excludes free comment from his blog and has frequently refused to publish my comments which , for example quote the twenty or so times on his own blog he assured us that a sweetheart deal was a cinch

  30. @ BonM4
    +1
    Lots of demand for renegotiated terms of EU membership in 2013, as throughout the previous couple of decades, particularly on (i) Fisheries Policy, (ii) free movement of non-workers, (iii) Public procurement policy where it seemed that only the UK obeyed the rules (iv) CAP where the UK was required to restrict milk production so that we could buy the french farmer’s surplus instead of it forming a milk lake next to the wine lake, (v) nonsensical rulings on “equality”

  31. “In every opinion Poll since the beginning of 2017 remain has had a lead over Leave”

    Weren’t the polls saying that at the time of the referendum?

  32. “In every opinion Poll since the beginning of 2017 remain has had a lead over Leave ”

    Just like every poll prior to the vote had remain in the lead too.

    “Turkey was never within miles of joining and it has stayed that way .”

    And to think you accuse the Leave side of making totally unsubstantiated claims about things……….

  33. Pat

    “The majority of the old voted remain in 1975. They voted leave in 2016. Hence a chunk of them must have changed their minds in the interim.”

    If you were old in 1975, you were dead by 2016.

    In 1975, the old voted Remain because of the War and the declinist narrative.

    In 2016, the old voted leave because they realised they were duped in 1975.

  34. Facepaint–the polls are run by lying scum like you. And millions of former remain voters have seen what scum you and your EU owners are.

    As helped by Vertwat and his “Empire” speech to the shithouse Limp Dicks.

    Lets have the election and see you SOS. And cram your polls sideways up your traitors arse.

  35. Does anyone agree that newmania should set up his own blog rather than boring us, and attempting to bore John Redwood, with his drivel? Admittedly it is interesting finding the facts that refute his random and strongly–held assertions

  36. I don`t accept that old people dying off thing …its an old lefty trope and it has never worked
    The leave campaign was certainly based on lies , the more interesting question is that when people knew they had been lied to they did not change their minds; they dug in.

    That is where we are now , entrenched but with one side being politically subjugated by the other .

  37. The leave remain campaign was certainly based on lies , the more interesting question is that when people knew they had been lied to they did not change their minds; they dug in.

    There FIFY

    According to remain cats would marry dogs, there would be pestilence in the land, a plague of frogs and death of every first born child. Still waiting for the dogs and cats nuptials.

  38. I’ve been reading John Redwoods blog lately and I’ve seen plenty of Newmania and other disagreeing comments so I find the idea he’s censoring odd.
    Admittedly he does his own moderation so posts can take a while to appear and he has asked people not to multiple post unless they have new info which seems fair.
    Wouldn’t describe that as censorship

  39. Your side “told lies”, while my side “selectively stated truths favourable to their own position”. Just as has been the case in every democratic contest since the days of Solon.

    The single biggest lie I was told was: “The Government will implement what you decide.”

  40. Newmania,

    “The leave campaign was certainly based on lies , the more interesting question is that when people knew they had been lied to they did not change their minds; they dug in.”

    They didn’t dig in, it just didn’t affect them much.

    “£350m/week to the EU?”
    “Actually, that’s a lie”
    “Really?”
    “Yeah, it’s actually £250m/week”
    “Oh, well that makes all the difference!”.

    And if you want to talk about lies, there’s a ton of Project Fear crap from remain.

  41. Two good articles about Cameron in DM

    1. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7466763/DOMINIC-LAWSON-Migration-Vote-Leaves-killer-punch-course-Cameron-walked-right-it.html

    2. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7466873/STEPHEN-GLOVER-Enemies-Tories-relish-backbiting-David-Camerons-memoir.html

    Related
    Last Night of The EU Proms – Thousands of free EU Flags handed out
    dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7466677/ROBERT-HARDMAN-fight-Proms-bit-Brexit-bother-British-scuffle.html

  42. Notice how BBC headline changes from Luxembourg PM says Brexit is a nightmare to Luxembourg PM blames Boris for Brexit nightmare

  43. “The single biggest lie I was told was: “The Government will implement what you decide.””

    Thats my point too. The entire referendum was based on that this lie, by Cameron. He promised that the vote was not a vote about him or his government, and that he personally would stay on as PM and implement whatever the result was.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/10/david-cameron-stay-as-pm-if-i-lose-eu-referendum

    There it is, a categorical promise by the Prime Minister of the UK, and chief Remainer, that he would stay on as PM and implement the result of the vote. And the day after he lost he fucks off, having not made a single piece of preparation for one of the outcomes of a dual outcome vote.

    If thats not utter lies and hypocrisy I don’t know what is. £350m vs £250m on the side of a bus doesn’t even enter into it.

  44. The Red Bus was just another fiendishly cunning masterstroke from Dominic Cummings. Publicise a provocative statement: “We pay £350 million a week to the EU” and all the anal retentive europhiles mill around on Twatter pointing out that this is a gross figure and the real number is (whatever – there are as many different net numbers as there are people working them out, since EU spending in the UK is complex).

    So (of course) all the voters heard was “the EU costs us a shit-ton of money”. You’d think all these self-proclaimed political geniuses in the Remain campaign might have worked this out, but no …

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