OK then Owen

A healthy democracy depends on an active citizenry which is able to make informed decisions. That is, in theory, the role of the fourth estate: to help the public understand their own society and the world around them, to hold the powerful to account and to challenge myths and expose uncomfortable truths. You do not need to be a long-time critic of the British media ecosystem to see those basic functions are not being satisfied when it comes to Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal. Rather than detailed scrutiny being applied to the most important single political event since the second world war, it has been reduced to a spectacle, a pantomime, all framed on the government’s own terms.

Just as Theresa May’s “no deal is better than a bad deal” bluster collided with political reality, Johnson’s demagoguery was followed by his own capitulation to the EU’s red lines. Yet his embrace of a deal first offered by the EU 19 months ago – and rejected by May as something “no UK prime minister could ever agree to” – has been presented as an against-all-odds, critic-defying triumph. The consequences of a deal predicted to strip the country of £130bn worth of growth – making the average Briton £2,250 a year poorer over the next 15 years – should be front and centre in the debate.

So we should examine every proposal by you, McDonnell and Corbyn by the effects on GDP growth, should we? Never another matter to have a look in?

Or do things like democracy, the way we’re ruled, inequality, civil liberty and all the rest get a look in?

And if they do with the plans you like then why don’t they with other plans?

55 comments on “OK then Owen

  1. In truth though, and as much as it sticks in the craw to say it, he’s right. Boris deal is awful. Yet the Press have been hailing it as fought for bitterly. Rubbish. It’s 100% capitulation, no wonder the DUP won’t have anything to do with it, and as usual pressure has been brought to bear on the ERG to approve it when they rejected May’s deal. As ever with this lot, it’s party before country.

  2. But we’re in Owen’s Nirvana. An unelected Socialist helping a tribe of deeply unpopular Socialists thwart the intentions of the Great Unwashed. What’s not to like?

  3. Yes, it’s interesting to see how Remainers prioritise financial graspiness at the same time as they’re precisely the people who’d see the economy dead in a ditch over warble gloaming.

    Yes also to the scepticism on Johnson’s deal. Quite how allowing a foreign power to determine our borders is anything but a capitulation I struggle to see, although I think Jim’s analysis that we wouldn’t have been here but for Gove knifing Johnson three years ago (I paraphrase) is persuasive.

  4. M’learned friend would appear to be on fire this a.m.
    Graspiness? What a cracking and utterly appropriate word.
    Warble Gloaming? Excellent.

  5. Thanks, Mr Wilkinson – but I can’t claim warble gloaming as my own! I think dearieme may have ownership of that one.

  6. Surely the key sign of the health of a democracy is that voting works? Which means Britain’s fecked and it’s because of twerps like Jones.

    Of course not everyone gets exactly what they voted for, whether its FPTP or some sort of PR, but a democracy cannot be said to function if you win, according to the rules, and then the Establishment ignores the result.

  7. Surely the key sign of the health of a democracy is that voting works?

    Indeed and here we find Remainers not only trying to overturn the referendum but also trying to bind the hands of a future Parliament so we can’t have a no deal exit after a GE.

    They’ve stopped pretending they’re democrats.

  8. Democracy with adjectives is democracy. Democracy without adjectives is democracy.

    ‘A healthy democracy’ votes the way he wants. In other words, he doesn’t give s#|+ about democracy. He uses it because you care.

  9. If the referendum had concerned a choice between relative poverty massive dislocation loss of strategic position and taking back control of the 1.5% of funds disbursed by the EU ( all of which was promised to be maintained anyway ) via the means of my MP who I detest and who disagrees with me so I have no say anyway ……( breath) I would not quibble .
    If you then said ..well so what if it all;amounts to fuck all, its the constitutional principle ..and people said /Yay I want to be poor powerless and steal from children and lose our school library and hospital for the sake of “constitutional principal ” – if that was what happened -I would not quibble

    You could count me in for this nuts racist lying bag of shit boosted by charlatans and inflicted on us by wrinkly, cunts with the brains of a senile teas -made
    In fact the main lines of the leave campaign was a pack of lies blaming brown people for everything pretending millions of Syrians were coming our way and that we would have a net outright , no argument , boost to the exchequer which was an outright lie believed by 90% of Leave voters most of whoim still believe it ..I mean just how stupid are they ?

    I don`t know if I can get down to that dog level of dumb and no NO NO NO I do not accept that these informant arses should run my life steal my money and hurt my children
    NO NO NO

    As for democracy don`t get me started

  10. Excuse me , I wrote informant arses when of course meant I “ignorant arses “. I`d hate anyone to feel unjustifiable insulted

  11. It’s your own argument isn’t it, Newmoania. The money. Everything is about money.
    What a sad little man.

  12. “we would have a net outright , no argument , boost to the exchequer which was an outright lie”

    In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

    Yeah. Just how stupid are people if they believe having (i) £9bn extra to spend on themselves and (ii) getting to decide for themselves the destination of a further £4bn, would be a boost.

    Remembering that part of that £4bn was given to Spud.

  13. You’re just bored silly aren’t you because Ecks hasn’t launched any nukes this morning! I noticed that on the other thread, giving Ecks the come on – and nothing in response..

    I wouldn’t fret, he’s probably just busy – bound to be back later?

  14. In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

    Oh come on , if someone told you they had lost all your client but its ok I can save on paper clips what would you say ..what words would you use ? Polite words, respectful words …..
    Well that is the argument you are making.

  15. Do we believe “predicted to strip the country of £130bn worth of growth”? Growth can come from a lot of different places.

  16. Newmania

    How have we lost all our clients?

    For example, as consumers, cars are a big part of this. I can buy a Mazda or an Audi prior to Brexit. Post Brexit, very little would change if there was no deal: the Audi might cost slightly more, if it was now imported on the same basis as the Mazda and we chose to continue to implement wholesale the WTO tariff on cars? Hence, yes sure, there might be fewer Audis purchased in total and a few more Mazdas, and Frau Merkel may be more concerned than Emperor Naruhito?

    Ditto all sorts of other stuff as smaller or larger elements of substitution kick in?

    But lose “all” clients?

    Unless you are being specific to an area that’s personal, which sure, I get (following an earlier discussion), but then “paper clips” is hardly the right analogy because that would be more relevant (wrt materiality) to the whole economy, not just specific sectors.

  17. Unlike Newmonia, who seems to me to be the archetypal Little Englander, I actually live in the EU outside the UK. It’s a nice life here, But but I came here with my ill gotten gains from the UK. It’s not somewhere I’d want to go if I was just starting out. OK, the business I’ve been involved in has done pretty well. But it’s very much a grey area operation. We basically ignore 99% of regulations. I’d hate to try & start a conventional business here. They’re on your earhole for money before you’ve even made your first cent & compliance with regulations would cost a packet. Or even seek regular employment. Jobs aren’t easy to get. The unemployment rate for under 25s is horrifying. And the Spanish, themselves are hardly inspiring. Incompetant, unreliable bunch of lazy c**ts wouldn’t go amiss as a description. That’s the sort of country you’re hitching yourself to, being in the EU.
    France seemed somewhat better. But there’s a helluva regulatory burden if you observe them. Which a lot of the French don’t. Employment? The girl I left London with stayed in Northern France. She’s a capable girl, Virginie. The restaurant chain she was working for in London wanted her to switch to the management track but she was set on returning to family & friends. She still hasn’t found a regular job in 10 years. She never gets over the 6 month hurdle where her employment rights kick in. The only other EU country I’ve experience of is Romania. It’s bandit country. OK if you’re in with the bandits.
    I can’t see the EU, as its constituted, holding together much longer. It’s internal contradictions will destroy it. Unless they go full federal & try to do it by force. In which case, I’m off. But I’m lucky. I can do that sort of thing. I wouldn’t like being one of the 350 million Europeans without the option.

  18. It was a metaphor illustrating the predicament of someone who has so little idea of scale that he comes to absurd conclusions. The cost to the country of lost growth dwarfs the net gain in EU contributions. That is the point
    Look for example at the irrelevant scale of likely gains for trade deals …0.1% o.2% its not just one estimate that is the Treasury . IFS .et al

    and yet we talk about it all day as if it was real .
    It only has rhetorical or symbolic significance, it does not butter any parsnips

  19. @Newmonia
    “if someone told you they had lost all your client but its ok I can save on paper clips what would you say ..what words would you use ?”
    I wouldn’t be telling them they could save on paperclips. I’d be telling them I couldn’t give a fuck. It’s only a small minority of UK businesses depend on EU trade. I’ve ever only once been involved in a business depended on EU trade & that was importing, not exporting. We’d have just sourced our imports elsewhere. And I know a lot of people have businesses in the UK. I don’t think any of them export either goods or services to the EU.
    What you’re representing is a small, but unfortunately over influential, minority. So a few of your precious overpaid City jobs might disappear. Tough. Not everything’s about keeping wankers affording BMWs & skiing holidays.

  20. A healthy democracy depends on an active citizenry which is able to make informed decisions. That is, in theory, the role of the fourth estate: to help the public understand their own society and the world around them, to hold the powerful to account and to challenge myths and expose uncomfortable truths. You do not need to be a long-time critic of the British media ecosystem to see those basic functions are not being satisfied when it comes to Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal.

    Shorter version: The ignorant swine won’t do what I want them to.

    Much like Richard Murphy, Owen Jones is all for democracy as long as he always wins.

  21. t’s only a small minority of UK businesses depend on EU trade.

    That is one of those bullshit phrases for the naive
    In 2008 ( from memory) the whole loss of GDP from top to bottom a was about 4% ..had a bit of an impact though didn`t it . 99% of your genes are the same as a chimp….makes a difference though ( in some cases )The overall death rate hardly changes in war (life expectancy actually went up in Vietnam )
    This is the conservatism of large numbers and a a bit of a trick in that it does not compare it with general gravitational affect of economic transactions
    Luckily for you clever people know this stuff which is why we do not need your opinion to matter in case you get it horribly wrong ( Which you did )

  22. Spanish bloke 80% of the UK economy is services it all benefits form the single market to some extent. I am part of politically subjugated a majority who prefer remain to the real life version of Brexit we are getting shoved down our throats .

  23. “The cost to the country of lost growth dwarfs the net gain in EU contributions. That is the point”

    I hope its not as dramatic as the 500,000 job losses we suffered simply by voting to leave (c) HM Treasury or the recession we suffered in 2017 as a result of voting to leave (c) Goldman Sachs or the real terms 1.4% fall in GDP that happened because of the vote to leave (c) Nomura.

    (+ 317,000 jobs, no recession, +2.5% real terms GDP).

    Since economics is mostly about explaining why predictions were wrong, I’m sure you can help out here.

  24. @ Newmania

    You share 60% of your genes with bananas. Unfortunately the differences don’t seem to have made a difference.

  25. @Newmonia
    Spanish bloke 80% of the UK economy is services it all benefits form the single market to some extent.
    How do you work that out? The last business I had in the UK would be regarded as a service industry. I didn’t provide any services in the EU. Most of the people I know who have UK businesses are service sector. They don’t provide services in the EU. The vast majority of service sector businessws provide services to people in the UK. It’s a sector where being physically close to your customers is often a necessity, let alone an advantage. You found a way of getting your hair cut on the internet?

  26. You found a way of getting your hair cut on the internet?

    ..and if we could all get by by cutting each others hair and building each others extensions and fixing eachothers plumbing all would be well. There are “Lots” of everything
    The point is how much … in the past people have found a concept called”Numbers” useful when they wish to compare things
    I do mean people who have ascended past ” One two .. as many as the birds or stars …” I think we are going right the way back to about 7000 BC at which time your understanding would have been current

    Andrew C – Mark Carney cancelled interest rate normalisation and May cancelled Osborne`s trajectory to fiscal safe waters but you know that right ? Meanwhile the economy is now slowing down dangerously and admitted spending by the bloviating Bunter is going to take us up to 90% of GDP

    Now why do you think al this throwing money around is suddenly avoidable hmmmmm, what coincidental event might have come along ..
    I`ll give you the first letter
    B……

    BR………

  27. ..and if we could all get by by cutting each others hair and building each others extensions and fixing eachothers plumbing all would be well.
    But that’s what the economy is. The foreign trade is just the froth on the top. And foreign trade with the EU’s a minor part of it. UK runs a deficit, remember? And trade with the EU is not going to cease coz Brexit. There’ll be a whole lot of salad growers down here going bust if it does. Let alone the Kraut’s car industry.

  28. The Treasury’s projection for a WTO Brexit is that it wpould reduce the rate of increase in GDP by 0.8% (hint, we usually don’t know last year’s GDP to that level of accuracy). So the economy won’t be ‘poorer’, it just won’t be as rich as it might have been had we remained in the EU. Given the treasury’s track record of forecasting GDP in general and predicting the effects of Brexit in particular, I’d take that number with a kilo of salt in any case.

    But to project that all forward 15 years and say “the economy in 2035 will be 12.5% smaller” is mystical nonsense. If circumstances change, businesses will change. They will adapt to changed circumstances and do things differently or do different things (the competent ones will, anyway, the incompetent ones will go bust, just as they always have done). If anyone tells you they have a crystal ball that can predict GDP 15 years out to 5 significant figures, run, do not walk, in the opposite direction.

  29. UK runs a deficit, remember?

    So what … really so what …just think about this endlessly repeated fact for a second and tell me how this is a bad thing?

    But to project that all forward 15 years and say “the economy in 2035 will be 12.5% smaller” is mystical nonsense

    In our business we are used to the cost of risk and competing uncertainties . It is not mystical or certain. It represents very high risk indeed and not only anyone in their right mind would take

  30. I don’t think any of them export either goods or services to the EU.

    We export services to the EU. It’s under 1% of our business and that customer is a bit shit at paying so I won’t be that sorry to lose them but it’s only irrelevant rather than imaginary.

  31. @Newmania “Mark Carney cancelled interest rate normalisation and May cancelled Osborne`s trajectory to fiscal safe waters”

    Heavens to Betsy.

    Are you saying that economies can change and adapt to different situations? And that predictions as to what might happen if they don’t are pointless because they do?

  32. @Newmania

    I can imagine that reading the drivel you write must be as painful for you as it is for us, but you really ought to before you press ‘post comment’. It might make more sense (it might not but at least you’ve given it your best shot).

    “It represents very high risk indeed and not only anyone in their right mind would take”

  33. It’s always good for a laugh to watch facepainter frotting himself into an orgasm while trying to maintain he is the only intellect on the Internet in his bizarrely spelt, punctuated and phrased way… Possibly a previously unnoted dialect of English?

  34. Poor old Violet Elizabeth Newmania, frotting himself into a frenzy on a daily basis now. Methinks VEN is working for a company that is dependent on the EU (any business dependent solely on one client base are a bunch of chumps). It’s not Brexit that worries VEN, it is the prospect of coming into work on 1st Nov and finding a P45 on his desk.

  35. Newmania

    “In our business we are used to the cost of risk and competing uncertainties.”

    Sure, but you are talking insurance and hence mostly actuarial risk, which – although can be very complex in certain areas, especially with long timescales (class actions, reinsurance and lots more) – we know is a quite different animal from projecting for an economy.

    “It represents very high risk indeed and not only anyone in their right mind would take”

    But this is the point.

    First off, as BiS said, it’s not just about money.

    But let’s assume you are right. At that point, it would be entirely logical for Canada to have merged with the United States, for economic reasons, and New Zealand with Australia, and there are lots of other reasonable examples too. Otherwise long term loss of GDP as you state etc?

    Those mergers would not simply be economic, they would also have happily now have moved towards political union – because that is the whole point of this European exercise (and if you don’t deal with or acknowledge that at all in your commentary (of pluses and minuses, why would anyone do this Brexit thing etc) you might wilfully be obfuscating the point?).

    The reality is that those more obvious mergers (values, legal systems, language etc) have not taken place. As you’re the resident expert here on this, could you explain to the rest of us why not? Because, logically, there must be a perfectly good (big picture) reason why those economic and political mergers have not taken place, but of course ours with the EU should: I’d simply be very keen to know the thinking behind it?

  36. Free movement with US would be popular with Canadians, a lot of people cross the border and a lot of retirees like to go south for extended periods in the winter
    Tell my wife she could just move to Hawaii anytime she liked with not paperwork/visas etc and you’d get her vote.

  37. Life would be happier if everyone empathised with with gay men and women
    Yes ok ..
    Aha so if that makes life better presumably you wish us all to have sex with men and like it !
    Um…not sure that follows
    It’s the old joke , would you sleep with me for a £ Billion ….ok we`ve established the principle now let’s negotiate. Reductio ad absurdum
    I can probably imagine circumstances in wish I would rather be poorer but placating a lot of Daily Express gulping bigoted silly old ladies is not one of them .

  38. @rapscallion October 22, 2019 at 9:12 am

    Boris deal is awful. Yet the Press have been hailing it as fought for bitterly. Rubbish. It’s 100% capitulation, no wonder the DUP won’t have anything to do with it

    Agree:

    After more than three years of delays and parliamentary games there is a powerful sense of wanting to ‘just get Brexit done’. Feelings of Brexit fatigue have led some Leavers to welcome Boris Johnson’s deal as the best we are likely to get.

    That is understandable. But it is a mistake. The Prime Minister’s deal is not a proper Brexit. It is far removed from what 17.4m of us voted for in 2016.

    Importantly – We don’t need a Withdrawal Agreement, Deal, Treaty to leave EU

    I can only suppose that pro-Brexit MPs backing the deal have not actually read the Withdrawal Agreement (WA) and the important Political Declaration (PD) that goes with it. These make up a new European Treaty that reheats 95 per cent of Theresa May’s deal.

    .
    Let’s compare it to what we thought we would get when we voted Leave. If it is passed into law, the PM’s Treaty will mean:

    #
    Britain remains under EU rules but with no vote, no voice, no veto.
    During the Withdrawal Agreement’s extendable ‘transition period’ (which lasts until at least the end of 2020 and almost certainly years longer), we won’t withdraw from the EU at all but become non-voting members.

    We will still be
    trapped in the EU customs union and single market, subject to all existing EU laws and any punitive new ones they might pass (Articles 4.1, 4.2, 6, 41, 95.1, 127).

    We’ll be under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) (Arts 4.4, 4.5, 86, 87, 89, 95.3, 131, 158, 163). The difference is we won’t have any say (Arts 7.1, 34). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    EU judges can still override our laws.
    The ECJ – a foreign court – governs the Treaty and EU law takes precedence. Future British parliaments will be bound to obey ECJ rulings, and UK judges will be obliged to overturn laws passed by our Parliament if the ECJ says they don’t comply with the Treaty or the EU laws it enables. (Articles 4.4, 4.5, 86, 87, 89, 95.3, 131, 158, 163).

    In some cases, the ECJ will rule for years even after the transition ends. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    We won’t control our fishing.
    The dreadful Common Fisheries Policy continues in UK waters during the extendable transition period, but we will have no say in it (Article 130). That means huge foreign trawlers plundering our waters at the expense of our coastal communities.

    After the transition, the Political Declaration signs us up to sharing ‘access to water and quota shares’ (para 73) – which equals continued EU exploitation of UK fishing grounds. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    We still won’t be free to trade as we see fit.
    Boris boasts of leaving the EU customs union. Yet the Political Declaration states any future free trade agreement with the EU must ensure ‘a level playing field’ (PD, para 17, 77) and ‘deep regulatory and customs cooperation’ (para 21).

    This means sticking to EU rules. It will be hard for the UK to reduce tariff barriers to cut the cost of living and make trade deals with other nations.

    The PD also requires we pursue ‘ambitious customs objectives that are in line with the Parties’ objectives and principles’ (para 22) – another restrictive EU customs union in all but name. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    We won’t have control of our tax or state aid policies .
    EU law applies to the UK during the transition period (Article 127), and beyond that the Political Declaration obliges the UK to adopt EU rules on state aid rules and ‘relevant tax matters’ (para 77).

    This all means we can’t change tax rates to be more competitive and can’t assist a strategic industry such as British Steel. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    Britain can’t pursue an independent foreign policy.
    The Treaty restricts UK sovereignty by preventing us taking ‘any action likely to conflict with or impede’ EU foreign policy (Article 129.6) – despite having no say in policy making.

    The UK will be signed up to all EU treaties,
    including new ones, throughout the transition period, and must ‘refrain… from any action… which is likely to be prejudicial’ to EU interests within international organisations such as the United Nations Security Council and the WTO (Article 129 points 1 and 3). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    Britain can’t pursue an independent defence policy.
    The Political Declaration commits us to security integration through the European Defence Agency and the European Defence Fund (para 102(c)).

    We will fund the EU’s military plans during the transition period at least, and British troops in EU battlegroups will be under foreign command (Articles 128.2, 129.7, 156, 157). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    The United Kingdom will be divided.
    The Treaty creates a de facto customs and regulatory border in the Irish Sea between Northern Ireland and Britain. Goods moving between NI and Britain will be checked. Citizens living in NI would effectively be staying in the EU, without any say in their laws, for at least four years after the transition and quite possibly forever.

    In other words, the UK gives up part of its sovereign territory —for what? (Protocol Articles 5 and 6.2). Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    We pay the EU billions and get nothing in return.
    The Treaty commits us to pay a sum to be decided by the EU (WA, Part Five). The £39bn payment demanded is likely to be just the start, with billions more to follow. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    And we’ll be trapped by the Political Declaration.
    The problems won’t end with the transition period. Don’t be fooled just because the Political Declaration on future relations is not legally binding.

    Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement requires us to use ‘best endeavours, in good faith’ to negotiate a future deal in line with the PD. Any breach of this duty will see the EU haul Britain before an arbitration panel – half EU appointees, half pro-EU judges from the UK. And the panel must defer to the European court on anything concerning EU Law.

    If they rule that a UK law goes against the Political Declaration, UK courts will have to overturn that law (WD Articles 170-175).

    The Political Declaration is a trap from which there is no plausible escape. Does that sound like the Brexit you voted for?

    #
    Can any Brexiteer inclined to support this Treaty honestly say that it amounts to a proper Brexit?

    We don’t need a Withdrawal Agreement, Deal, Treaty to leave EU. A Clean-Break Brexit remains the best deal for Britain.

  39. If the role of the fourth estate is to help the public understand their own society and the world around them, to hold the powerful to account and to challenge myths and expose uncomfortable truths, why do they employ Owen Jones?.

  40. Farage’s only ambition is to get us out of this stinking deal By Melanie Phillips
    Melanie Phillips is a journalist at The Times

    …This “Deal” would mean the UK committing itself to a ‘level playing field’ – in other words, no deviation – on employment legislation, social protection, environmental law, state aid and even taxation. So the terms of the Johnson deal would prevent the UK from becoming more competitive than the EU.

    The Johnson deal would not do so. It would deliver Brexit in name only, leaving the UK still shackled to the EU – unable to do trade deals with the rest of the world free of EU regulations, unable to control its own defence or foreign policy and with laws that are passed by the Westminster parliament still subject, in some circumstances at least, to the European Court of Justice.

    Those who support the Johnson deal are either faux-Brexiteers who want the UK to leave but in terms that bind it to the EU in perpetuity, or don’t much care if it is thus bound because they believe idiotically that the UK can be a little bit in and bound by the EU as well as being out and an independent sovereign nation. Such people didn’t have a big problem with the May deal either, for those reasons.


    Or the Johnson deal supporters [Mr Ecks?] are Brexiteers who have been so spooked by the Remainer coup against the people that they believe the choice they face is between the Johnson deal and no Brexit. And in their emotional and panicky exhaustion, they are all too susceptible to the Johnson spin that he is such an supremely Brexity prime minister that he will die in a ditch to get Brexit done in a heroic stand against the Remainer parliament that is intent upon kicking the British people in the teeth

    The situation now is this. Brexit has been frustrated for three years by a Remainer parliament determined to stop it and which, aided by an unconstitutionally partisan Speaker and unconstitutionally activist judges, has been tearing up the constitutional rule book to do so (see here for Professor Vernon Bogdanor’s opinion that the Letwin amendment which wrecked Saturday’s ‘meaningful vote’ is unconstitutional).

    Now the Remainer parliament has further delayed consideration of Johnson’s deal – which doesn’t deliver Brexit, although he says it does – on the basis that it might be a Trojan horse for a no-deal Brexit, which is in fact the only way Brexit can truly be delivered….

    .
    Bruges Group The Revised Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration: a briefing note

    Executive Summary

    The Treaty permanently restricts our military independence, demands payment of an unspecified sum, prevents independent arbitration, grants EU officials immunity from UK laws, leaves us with EIB contingent liabilities running into tens if not hundreds of billions and will impose punitive laws on the UK during a transition which is likely to be extended until mid 2022 (just a few months before the next General Election).

    The Political Declaration is such that a future FTA with the EU is made unpalatable because it will restrict our foreign policy and military independence as well as policies in trade, tax, fishing, environment, social and employment, competition and state aid. Free movement is replaced with vague notions of “mobility” and “non discrimination”.

    Johnson’s Surrender Treaty is BRINO

  41. @Edward Lud October 22, 2019 at 9:58 pm

    Strange nomenclature given I’m anti-EUSSR and want clean break Brexit

  42. All the verbiage about how bad the deal is but no plan to get No Deal past 450 traitors who have fucked up everything.

    My CCA plan will break them and if Johnson wants a deal he could force them to it once Benn’s turd and FTPA are set aside. Or go No deal.

  43. I don’t agree with the assessments of the Deal anyway.

    But correct or not–the stitch up is such that the choice IS the Deal of no Brexit despite big talk from Melonie Phillips. An extn weakens Johnson and if the cunts get their VONC followed by Caretaker Cunt –and a 2nd VONC vote of no to a GE followed by mass fraud/gerrymandering/votes for 14 yr olds etc then its goodbye to Brexit and the UK.

    So stop wearing your fucking typing fingers out on how bad the deal is a let’s have the fucking plan to get to No Deal from where we are.

    Please..

  44. Newmania said:
    “and if we could all get by by cutting each others hair and building each others extensions and fixing each others plumbing all would be well”

    Isn’t that, essentially, what we do? Provide goods and services for each other? What’s the point of economic activity if it doesn’t do that?

    Or are you running a barbers for Martians?

  45. Facepaint would suck Martian’s dicks if it paid–and he could feel both superior to the plebs and cringingly servile to his new overlords while he did it.

  46. As usual–no takers.

    Indeed, it’s pretty much only you insisting on making nowhere plans in the comments section of a blog, Mr Ecks.

  47. “It’s your own argument isn’t it, Newmoania. The money. Everything is about money.”

    And it’s wrong. You remember in the Indiana Jones film, he hides in a Fridge from a Nuclear Blast ; that’s what Brexit is economically, except we’re at ground zero. The Euro’s end, probably in the next 18 months will be way worse than any of those disaster predictions. Being in or out, no difference. We can’t escape it or veto it ; we will volunteer to help it (i.e. cough up) anyway. The alternatives are impossible.

  48. @Mr Ecks October 22, 2019 at 11:58 pm

    I refer you to my previous answer
    http://www.timworstall.com/2019/10/18/but-whats-wrong-with-chlorinated-chicken/#comment-900439

    How clean exit is delivered is the job of Johnson & Cummings, your CCA is a non-starter now that XR have backed off

    .
    Did you read Melanie’s article, Bruges Group or this?
    http://www.timworstall.com/2019/10/21/yep-quite-right/#comment-900645

    Appears not from the insults you fling around at anyone who calls out Johnson’s deal as Vassal State Surrender Mk2

    Your position now is: Farage, Tice, Redwood, Philips, Bruges Group, DUP, VFB, PJW…. all wrong on Johnson’s “Deal” is Surrender Treaty II – correct?
    .

    Still waiting:
    Answer this: If we’re out and free of EU, why was Johnson boasting EU agreed we could remove VAT from tampons in this “better” Treaty?

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