Remind me, why do we bother to have Tories?

Sajid Javid unveiled a £300bn investment spree as he tore up borrowing rules and reversed decades of Conservative policy with a pledge to revamp Britain’s roads, railways, schools and hospitals.

The Chancellor said he will not use debt to fund current spending, such as benefits and wages, but will take advantage of rock-bottom interest rates by borrowing up to 3pc of economic output per year to invest.

This spending pledge is unprecedented in recent history and marks a dramatic departure from the Tories’ focus on tight restrictions over the public finances.

28 comments on “Remind me, why do we bother to have Tories?

  1. Why have Tories?

    So the Establishment can pretend there’s organised national opposition to orthodoxy.

  2. Meanwhile……utter nonsense from Spud and the Co-Operative party.

    The Co-operative party has the Fair Tax Mark, which is says helps with ‘Tax Transparency”.

    But a company’s tax affairs are NOT made transparent by having a Fair Tax Mark. FTM does not report on what it finds when it awards the FTM. You go to FTM, you pay your money, they have a secret look at your tax affairs and award you the FTM.

    FTM has no investigative powers. It cannot challenge anything told to it by a company. As I used to tell accountants when I was an HM Tax Inspector “if your client is lying to us, he’s probably lying to you”. There is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that a company granted an FTM isn’t up to something it hasn’t told FTM about and FTM has no way of finding anything out.

    FTM looks only at a company – The company’s owners could be up to all sorts but that is irrelevant to FTM.

    FTM picks and chooses its criteria. The single biggest tax & NIC avoidance trick is for small companies to pay dividends. HMRC don’t like it, particularly when non-participatory family members hold shares and get dividends. HMRC have tried to attack this through the courts (they’ve so far failed). So HMRC don’t like it. What do FTM say? They’re OK with it “because everyone is doing it”. Rather than take a stand and lose potential customers, FTM looks the other way.

    The FTM is an utterly useless, meaningless, unregulated, unapproved award.

    It’s the modern day tax equivalent of buying absolution for sins from your priest.

  3. I suspect we haven’t seen the half of it, that the promises will increase as the campaign lengthens.

  4. To stop Labour bankrupting the country.

    We have a history of the Conservatives turning round the economy and then Labour being elected and spending money like water and wrecking it again.

    It would be nice to see the Conservatives break the mould and get the opportunity to spend a bit more, in a directed manner on infrastructure, if it means they get to stop Corbyn and McDonnell getting control of the purse strings and breaking the entire system.

    And don’t even get started on the Greens and their £100B a year…..

  5. At the moment Brexit is all that matters.

    Stupid plan to spend such but it is an election promise which changing economic conditions will halt anyway.

    The world is choking on scummy govt debt and promises of economic largesse that will never be fulfilled. Chrome-domed Savid Javid can promise what he likes –it aint happening. It shows that the scum of BluLabour still have Treason’s patronising belief–shared with ZanU –that people are for sale if the money –promised money–is right.

    What matters is freedom from the rotting corpse of the EU.

  6. I have no idea who to vote for, or even whether to bother any more.

    They are almost all the same policies these days. Tax, tax, tax, spend, spend, spend, laws, laws, laws.

    Where is the party for small state, small government, low taxes?

    F*ck the lot of them. I’ll probably follow Ecks’ advice and vote Tory this time to try and get Brexit done. Hopefully we can get out before Deutsche Bank falls over, although given our politicos’ tendency to bail out our neighbours (looking at you Ireland), I wouldn’t put it past them to give the EU a load of money anyway to prop up their banks even if we’ve left.

    An interesting outcome would be a labour government, propped up by a Lib Dem coalition. Corbyn et al would want to leave, Lib Dems keeping them in in exchange for coalition. Would mean that Labour wouldn’t be able to do all their nationalisations due to EU rules. Lol.

  7. The Chancellor said he will not use debt to fund current spending

    Hang on, isn’t he already using debt to fund current spending? According to the ONS, government borrowing from April to September this year came to £40.3 billion.

    I do not recall any of this cash being ‘invested’. Are the services this borrowing paid for going to be cut next year?

  8. Traditionally Labour were on the left and Tories on the right. Then Tony Blair figured out that he could grab a load more votes by appealing to the middle, as the left would vote for Labour regardless of their policies. The Tories saw this and followed suit (except that the tory faithful won’t vote for them without thinking – leaving a number of people unsure where to put their vote). Now Labour (under Corbyn) is moving back to the left, but the Tories are spread all the way from the right to the centre, and have no coherent message or approach.

    You just have to look at “Tories” such as Rory Stewart and the ones who’ve now jumped to the Lib Dems – they would never have done so if the Tory party were not broad enough to encompass the Lib Dem policies and approaches already. They would never have been Tories back in the day.

    So my question is when do the Tories move back to the right?

    (p.s. I hate it when people refer to the party as being a “broad church” – that’s no good to anybody – you need a proper consistent approach and message so that we know what we’re voting for)

  9. You broke it .. I just posted this on Redwood , probably wont see the light of day rarely does

    The only Party who can afford to offer tax cuts are the Lib Dems by revoking the Brexit disaster. The IFS have pronounced the Mark Twain style lying contest between the old firm are fairy tales and I am enough of an old righty to be especially offended at Savid Javid making statements Gordon Brown would have been ashamed of. From Corbyn I expect gibberish.
    Redwoods Mugabe-nomics ( pretend QE is not debt ..ie print money )is actually part of Conservative rhetoric … and I see that followers of the village idiot Richard Murphy have started to admire Redwood .. (The State can never run out of money you know ..although almost ever state has and this one has only recently shown its inability to control bond yields ..)
    ..and why this need to suck in borrowing , to adopt emergency stimulus ? Why these desperate counter recessionary measures ?
    Altogether now its ….DESPITE BREXIT !!

  10. Newmania

    If you were capable of separating your non Brexit stuff (quite often makes sense) from Brexit (a sad case of BDS, though seen worse), you would be a lot more readable.

  11. For Leave supporters Boris Johnson’s negotiated Brexit is a sufficient reason to vote Conservative rather than The Brexit Party but the spending commitments (because money is cheap!) mean that many will have to hold their nose while doing so.

  12. but the Tories are spread all the way from the right to the centre, and have no coherent message or approach.

    It depends what you mean by “The right “, the UK has some exceptionalism. One obvious one is that due to its mercantile history and Empire Nationalism is unusually associated with Free Trade and Laissez fair economics whereas for most countries Nationalism is close to its natural protections and big state logic .
    So in the Uk the tendency for Policies that priorities ethnic purity over prosperity to create a large state is obscured . Nonetheless the iron logic of Nationalism is ethnic collectivism and totalitarianism and this was always bound to overcome its particular UK context ( you do not attract socially conservative Labour voters by promising a deregulated labour market….)
    The Conservative Party is not drifting leftwards unless you think becoming more like its European Fascist sister Parties is drifting leftwards . It is certainly drifting away form Conservatism and sound money as we see by the defenestration of Phllip Hammond Osborne Clarke and many many more
    This was , by the way already beginning to happen in UKIP and although Farrage himself is very much that contradictory British beast the Free market ethnic Nationalist ..I`ve a bit of a soft spot for him funnily enough

  13. Newmania- with respect your Tories becoming Fascists theory is hokum. Its the same old wets versus the dries. While they think spending gets the votes they’ll go along with it.

  14. Facepaint–your attempts at thinking aren’t working. Go back to old job as EU catamite. Before the ricebowl gets broken over your head.

  15. There is no “iron logic” about Nationalism > Ethnic collectivism and totalitarianism. A strong sense of national might simply be a defence of ideas, cultures and values (and liberty).

  16. Why is companies paying dividends to their investors tax avoidance?

    I thought that companies paying dividends to their investors was the entire fucking point.

  17. See also the proposed NHS visa to recruit more foreign doctors ‘n’ nurses. A half-sensible party (Tory or otherwise) would propose funding more nursing & medicine degrees in the UK, rather than importing cheap workers from half a world away.

  18. Andrew M: every medical program gets more qualified applicants than there are places. No need for extra cash to double the numbers of trainees, just slash the govt contribution to grievance studies, medja studies and similar.

  19. “Remind me, why do we bother to have Tories?”

    Least worst alternative.
    Republicans perform the same function in the US.

  20. Republicans perform the same function in the US.

    Before Trump that was true. Now, not so much.

  21. @Bloke in Germany in Denmark

    “Why is companies paying dividends to their investors tax avoidance?”

    Who said anything about investors (in the true sense)?

    OMB’s are often family owned companies with one or other spouse doing all the work. Such ‘investment’ as there was would have been the £100 founding share capital.

    What usually happens then is company profits are paid out via dividends rather than as salary. There’s your NIC saving, as no NIC on dividends.

    Then take it a step further and give the spouse shares – pay them dividends so that allowances and tax bands are fully utilised.

    Then take it a step further…..

    Mr A runs a profitable company, say £200k distributable profits. If he took all that out himself in dividends he’d pay £58,275 in tax.

    Mr A has a wife who doesn’t work and his two adult children are at Uni. He’s funding them to the tune of £7,500 a year each – currently out of post-tax income.

    A quick chat with me, a little jiggery pokery with share ownership and he will be paying £92,500 dividends to himself, the same to his wife and £7,500 each to his two kids.

    The total tax bill for the same £200,000 dividends is now £32,950, a tax saving of £25,325.

    Couldn’t do that same sort of splitting with salary as the company salaries would fail the ‘wholly & exclusively” test.

    And if he wanted to save even more, he’d pay £3,750 extra dividends to his children who would each pay him £3,750 rent for their rooms at home. No tax on the kids and no tax for the rent which is covered by rent-a-room relief. Saves an extra £2,437.50 in tax.

  22. Mr. X: “At the moment Brexit is all that matters.”

    Some of the polling data would suggest that is not really the case — lots of the Great British Public is bored with Brexit, and more concerned about other matters. Anyway, Brexit is not on offer any more; only Boris’s BRINO.

    And who can be sure that Boris the Unreliable will stick to his promise to deliver BRINO while reneging on all his other promises? Maybe Boris with a majority will instead put BRINO in the round file and focus on that bridge to Ireland?

    Why do we bother to have Tories? Same reason we have Labour, Democrats, Republicans. Unthinking tribal loyalty. Tories got to Tory. It certainly has nothing to do with rational analysis, nor with believable commitments from any branch of the unified Political Class.

  23. Why do we bother to have Tories?

    They’re less insane than Labour, Lib, Pliad, SNP, Green parties

    They’re not Tories, they”re Socialists

    I wonder what Javid’s Bank employer would have said if he suggested they did that.

    Maybe Hammond wasn’t so bad after all

    .
    @Chernyy_Drakon November 8, 2019 at 10:04 am

    No need to wonder “put it past them”, it’s in Johnson’s Surrender Treaty:

    £500 Billion liability via EIB if EU ECB/Banks/Euro go tits up

    If £/UK Banks go tits up? EU laughs

  24. Maybe Hammond wasn’t so bad after all

    Hammond is a cunt, and nearly as bad a chancellor as the one-eyed Scotch fuckwit. Hammond was malevolent rather than merely incompetent.

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