There is a problem here

The LibDems faced a backlash yesterday after backing a change in the law to allow people to self-identify their gender without a medical report.

Women’s groups claimed self-identification could be abused and could compromise female-only spaces such as changing rooms.

Given that gender is, in the modern parlance, entirely a social construct then OK, why not allow self identification? Except, well, social constructs are, well, social, aren’t they? That is, it’s not what you think about your gender, it’s what all the rest of us think your gender is which identifies it. That’s what social construct means.

And if gender isn’t simply a social construct then we’ve other problems with being able to change it, don;t we?

46 comments on “There is a problem here

  1. “Women’s groups claimed self-identification could be abused and could compromise female-only spaces such as changing rooms.”

    I would feel sorry for them, but I am too busy laughing.

  2. I’m not sure which demographic the LibDems are targeting here. Sure, there’s the men in dresses and the insane, but the former is very small and the latter have Corbyn. Perhaps they are after the insane who want people to be able to change gender at a whim but aren’t sure if the Comrades would keep them in the EU?

  3. O Tempora, O Mores.

    If a midwife can’t tell if the newborn baby has a penis or vagina then I’m willing to accept that there is something else than male and female, man and woman, boy and girl. Other than that is merely either a mental illness or perversion.

  4. An assumption of much modern ‘thinking’ is that the individual is (in some undefined way) prior to society – individuals create society, not society the individual. (Think Rousseau vs Aristotle.) So the social constructs of a corrupt capitalist cis-gendered society are oppressive and must be replaced.

    More generally…gender is not a social construct, but society is partly a gender construct. Likewise, race is not a social construct, but societies are partly racial constructs.

  5. Coming elections give nutters the opportunity to air their stupid and sick ideas and future policies. Libdems for instance, gender neutral school uniforms and option to put X as gender in one’s passport. It not quite 9am and I already need a pint.

  6. “That is, it’s not what you think about your gender, it’s what all the rest of us think your gender is which identifies it.”

    This got me thinking. Perhaps the best way to determine someone’s gender would be a sort of reverse identity parade where the prospective male/female would have to convince a majority of 10 or so people that they are their chosen gender.

    Naturally the 10 or so people would represent a cross section of society, so would include factory workers and scaffolders for example, and a BAME or two.

  7. The more stupid shite the Limp Dicks and ZaNu peddle the better. They have their hard core of scum– but simple common sense suggests they should be softening their message for wavering fools –not doubling down on evil stupid cockrot–literally in this case.

    Keep going you pukes.

  8. Rob,

    The Lib Dems would be tearing Labour a new arsehole if they had good leadership. Not saying I agree with them on remain, but there’s a large chunk of the vote for that. Make your tax and spend policies slightly left of centre and tell people that men in dresses have limits in society.

    Yes, the men in dresses will get upset, but you can’t please everyone in politics. And this isn’t about their personal status, it’s about competing rights.

    Also, this is the sort of thing that can lose votes bigly. It won’t appear in any survey because survey companies don’t ask the question, and a lot of women won’t shout about this as it’s into the whole ‘uman rights area and standing up to men in dresses ends up with shit like doxxing.

  9. I’ve long thought that it is not leadership that is the LibDems biggest problem but their PR team. Even back to the coalition things would have been much better for them if they had been loudly proclaiming all the things that they had stopped the conservatives from doing (and anything that had convinced them to actually do). Instead externally they seemed like a doormat (and I’m willing to believe that internally they probably did do stuff). Since them for long periods of time there media presence was simply missing in action. Jo has been getting a bit more coverage but even still they aren’t good at capitalising on their position.

  10. Yes, there is a problem here and it consists of people substituting the now ambiguous, amorphous term “gender” for “sex” which is more clear cut in its meaning.

    The OED helpfully gives us this in §3b (i.e. a fair way down) of its article on gender (n.):

    In mod. (esp. feminist) use, a euphemism for the sex of a human being, often intended to emphasize the social and cultural, as opposed to the biological, distinctions between the sexes.

    In that light gender is perhaps more a political than a social construct.

  11. Also, this is the sort of thing that can lose votes bigly. It won’t appear in any survey because survey companies don’t ask the question, and a lot of women won’t shout about this as it’s into the whole ‘uman rights area and standing up to men in dresses ends up with shit like doxxing.

    Exactly – add the “shy women” effect to the “shy Tory” one in opinion polls.

    It is ironic that as opinion polling is becoming even more prevalent in elections, politics itself is becoming more toxic and voicing opinions which would have been mundanely centrist five years ago can now either get you a visit from Plod or worse, so people become even more careful what they say to opinion polls, rendering them useless.

  12. BoM4 – Also, this is the sort of thing that can lose votes bigly

    Yarp. Especially among the Lib Dem target audience. Middle Class women are far more likely to be TERFs – Mumsnet hates this sort of thing. Trannies and other people who strongly advocate trans jihad are a smaller audience.

    Tim says Except, well, social constructs are, well, social, aren’t they? That is, it’s not what you think about your gender, it’s what all the rest of us think your gender is which identifies it. That’s what social construct means.

    Which is true. Some bloke posted something here a while back about Western individualism versus Eastern dividualism.

    Seems to me that trannyism is simultaneously the ultimate destination of extreme individualism, untethered by traditional social obligations or self-restraint, and also the erasure of the self as the victim’s personality is subsumed by dopamine-chasing behaviour.

    So… how many middle aged blokes turn into transgoblins, then seem to have nothing to talk about except being trans and trans ishoos? It’s exactly like how stoners are always yapping about weed.

  13. dearieme: I’m sure you can find all sorts of things horticultural to opine about, and rail against us rootists. You might even find common cause with the Parsnips, until that inevitably sufferers from PFJudea Syndrome.

  14. ‘Women’s groups claimed self-identification could be abused and could compromise female-only spaces such as changing rooms.’

    The wimmins sold their soul to the Left, and now the Left betrays them. For a strange dude in a dress.

    For a dude with a bra running on the women’s track team.

    I share David Moore’s mirth. They are getting what they deserve.

  15. The PF Judea syndrome is already here. According to the taxonomy, 60% of trans are “autogynaephilic, i.e. they get a buzz out of their own supposed female sex. But that is a heresy in trans circles and must be ruthlessly suppressed.

  16. And to think when I grew up there were only 6 sexes.
    Truly the world is stranger than we can imagine.

    So if I identified as a female I could use the female showers at my local swimming baths and the female only gym in town. Under a Lib Dem government…

    Wonder how the women feel about my beard…

  17. So if I identified as a female I could use the female showers at my local swimming baths and the female only gym in town. Under a Lib Dem government…

    Wonder how the women feel about my beard…

    Don’t know about the women’s feelings, but the circus would be interested. 🙂

  18. “tell people that men in dresses have limits in society. Yes, the men in dresses will get upset, but you can’t please everyone in politics…”

    The problem is, it’s not just men in dresses who feel threatened by such language. It’s the Niemöller problem: As soon as a politician says “maybe we’ve gone a bit too far with this trans stuff”, someone recites “First they came [for the trannies]…” and every other minority starts to worry.

    In theory there’s no reason why a crackdown on hormone blockers for 9 year olds should threaten Grindr users, but in practice politicians who oppose the freedom (to chop off your child’s bits) usually turn out to have authoritarian views in other areas too.

  19. Gender is the identity a person has through interaction with other people, and the crucial bit there is the “interaction with other people”. A hermit has no gender, and your identity is a negotiation with others.

  20. @Andrew M. “In theory there’s no reason why a crackdown on hormone blockers for 9 year olds should threaten Grindr users…”

    Actually the Gays should be in favour of hormone blockers. Trans activists seem to be trying to eliminate gaydom by converting potentially homosexual boys into trans girls.

    Give them their head and in a generation the only gays will be butch.

  21. Progressives really have got this one wrong, big time.

    They supported decriminalising homosexuality in part so they could demonise conservatives and Conservatives. There was push-back but most people shrugged as they understood the argument that it wasn’t the State’s place to police the bedroom. Politicans were a bit slow on the uptake.

    Then they went after gay marriage for roughly the same reason. Again, most people shrugged as they understood the arguments about being equal in the eye’s of the State. That the church wasn’t happy was a bonus. MPs were a bit quicker on the uptake, but most people didn’t care as it didn’t affect them.

    Then they demanded 57 varieties of gender. Most people just laughed or shrugged. Why should they care how people label themselves on Facebook?

    There’s even a lot of sympathy for transgender sex changes. This was going on the ’80s and to the extent that people thought about it they were generally sympathetic. There was even sympathy, or at worst apathy, for the argument that those who’ve had a sex change should be treated in law as their new sex.

    Now they’ve gone for using bearded men in dresses going in to ladies’ changing rooms as a way to point at conservatives as “bad people” they’ve had a shock because the general population is waking up and thinking WTAF? What most of them haven’t figured out, partly because they don’t have children at risk from these policies, is that parents are very conservative when it comes to the safety of their own children.

    Even feminists aren’t progressives when it comes to the safety of their children.

  22. “The problem is, it’s not just men in dresses who feel threatened by such language. It’s the Niemöller problem: As soon as a politician says “maybe we’ve gone a bit too far with this trans stuff”, someone recites “First they came [for the trannies]…” and every other minority starts to worry.

    In theory there’s no reason why a crackdown on hormone blockers for 9 year olds should threaten Grindr users, but in practice politicians who oppose the freedom (to chop off your child’s bits) usually turn out to have authoritarian views in other areas too.”

    You want to know the worst groups for homophobia in both the UK and the USA? It’s ethnic minorities. Do you think lesbians want tranny men in the changing area?

    Don’t believe what the SJWs tell you. They love this idea, and they’ve used it to sell an agenda for years. Every politician is shit scared of crossing lines because of the votes lost, as if every brown person is OK with what was going on in Rochdale, or every Indian wants mass migration.

    Mainstream politicians can either do the right, sensible thing, or get their votes split. If this carries on much longer, you’ll see a women’s party standing against MPs until they’re forced to accept some of what they want in order to get elected.

  23. “dearieme, I identify as a pointed stick.”

    There’s a Greek word for that, isn’t there: referring to the whole by a part?

    Bits of my secondary education have long deserted me.

    (But at least I got one, unlike Jeremy Carrot.)

  24. Didn’t some school bring in gender neutral uniforms only to be sued for not letting people where gender specific clothing some girls complaining they weren’t now allowed to wear skirts, it seems that the only way to do it under human rights may be to allow anyone to wear anything from the uniform list which will include both male and female clothing

  25. “If this carries on much longer, you’ll see a women’s party standing against MPs until they’re forced to accept some of what they want in order to get elected.”

    Good idea. In theory. But women could never get a bunch of women to agree on anything. And the feminazis DON’T represent women. In spite of what they say.

  26. “(But at least I got one, unlike Jeremy Carrot.)”

    Are you implying that you’re related to Mr. Carrot?
    (since you identify as one) 🙂

    Cheers

  27. in practice politicians who oppose the freedom (to chop off your child’s bits) usually turn out to have authoritarian views in other areas too.

    Did you even see V FOR VENDETTA?

    It was supposed to be a horrible fascist dystopia, but London looked clean and… English. There were remarkably few stabbings and nobody got acid attacked or nothing.

    Vote Norsefire.

  28. Gamecock,

    “Good idea. In theory. But women could never get a bunch of women to agree on anything. And the feminazis DON’T represent women. In spite of what they say.”

    I’m not talking about feminazis, but the blue battleaxes.

  29. Tom: “Give them their head and in a generation the only gays will be butch.”

    Clever! Funny! You get a Gold Star in your book for that one, Tom.

  30. Thing is, I cannot see any way in which this ends in a compromise rowing back to middle of the road-ish-ness. It’s an all-out war on normality. As with so much else going on around us, I simply cannot imagine a peaceful outcome.

    And I write this as someone convinced that most people would (and do), at least indirectly, sell their children and grandchildren for a quiet comfortable life. In other words, most people do not have any appetite for serious conflict.

  31. It’s an all-out war on normality. As with so much else going on around us, I simply cannot imagine a peaceful outcome.

    Yes, also note the recent push for Polyamory.

  32. “also note the recent push for Polyamory.”

    I was staying with some friends at the weekend, and politeness decreed that I watch TV with them of an evening (I have no TV myself, gave it up a decade ago), and had to endure an episode of Holby City. One of the story lines involves a ‘thrupple’ (the actual word was used in the dialogue), a gay couple who split up, one party then got a GF pregnant and now they’re all back together as a trio. This is the sort of pro-polyamory propaganda the BBC is pushing in prime time these days.

    Incidentally, I also watched an episode of ‘World on Fire’, a BBC WW2 historical drama. Very formulaic, which isn’t a problem, the number of black people in 1940s UK and Europe was rather surprising tho………………….

    When you don’t see this stuff day in day out you are shocked how far down the SJW road they’re going.

    And back on topic, this turned up in my Youtube picks:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYEOaig

    At least South Park aren’t afraid to take the p*ss……….

  33. “I simply cannot imagine a peaceful outcome.”

    True. Because this is just another day in the Left trying to destroy Western Civilization. Disrupt everything. Even if this is resolved, another 100 issues will be brought forth.

    This isn’t really about self identifying. It’s about churning the West.

  34. Jim: The Beeb is so woke in everything now. The recent ‘Poldark’ series was so bad that even a Democrat friend in the US complained. And the other channels are going the same way. ‘Sanditon’ recently on ITV is a good example. I think the Beeb feel they have a divine duty to be moral guardians for us all, to the complete detriment of any kind of breadth of viewpoint. Long gone are the days of Hugh Carleton-Green!

  35. @ Steve
    It was intended that way to make the fascism become more shocking and the people’s revolt at the end more believable. The general who refused to order his men to fire on the marchers would have been shot himself if he had been in Beijing, but it could be believed if he was a career British upper- or upper-middle-class army officer.

  36. @Jim November 16, 2019 at 12:24 am

    +1

    One only needs to look at UK TV and Print ads to see the SJW takeover

    Virtually every family/couple is mixed race/colour with whites rare – “honest & truthful” they’re not

  37. ‘The LibDems faced a backlash yesterday after backing a change in the law to allow people to self-identify their gender without a medical report.’

    WAFS: I’m against people self-identifying EVEN WITH A MEDICAL REPORT!

    WTF is a medical report supposed to show that would change anything?

    “You’re a dude!”

    “I feel like a woman.”

    “Get over it. You are a dude.”

Leave a Reply

Name and email are required. Your email address will not be published.