Nope, I\’ve no idea here at all

But on the one side there\’s this.

Karin Ward, a former pupil at Duncroft Approved School for Girls in Surrey, alleged that the pop star carried out the sex attack in front of the TV presenter as he molested a 14-year-old girl. Glitter is said to have strongly denied the allegations.

And on the other side there\’s this.

The Newsnight story was the foundation stone of this saga – come on then investigative reporters that are so vital to our democracy, or the Met police, or anyone else interested in the truth – let’s be having you! Let’s see how strong that foundation is.

Off to Liverpool with you. The lady you want is Dr Maureen Watry. You’ll find her at the Sydney Jones library at Liverpool University. You want the box marked NRA 22753 – it’s filed under Barnardo’s. In it you will find all the minutes of meetings, financial records, correspondance from old girls, day books noting everybody’s presence or non-presence and even the girls’ files (although access to those is restricted to genuine researchers) running from 1948-1982: It contains Miss Jones’ entire archive (here’s looking at you Meirion!) it will make fascinating reading. Next to it you will even find another box marked D.965 – all her photograph albums. Happy hunting! You might find an even better story, who knows. Of course you could find that you’ve all been chasing after a stuffed rabbit – how embarrassing would that be?

Now, I\’ve no knowledge either way about any of this at all.

Only that horrible sinking feeling that we\’ve been here before. We\’ve had mass hysteria over the sexual abuse of children before. Orkney, Cleveland, it has indeed happened that people have been prosecuted and lives ruined over what seemingly simply didn\’t happen.

And we\’ve also had (Margaret Hodge, we\’re thinking of you here) vast rings of child buggery and the like that really did happen and which were not properly investigated and lives not ruined that should have been. And then there was that vast and outrageous investigation into child pornography (the name escapes me now) where the police finding your stolen credit card details on a porn server marked you out as a nonce.

So it\’s a fairly important question to try and get an answer to. Did all this happen or not? Are we about to (metaphorically) hang the innocent? Or have we been hiding an appalling violation of the innocent all these years?

Important, no? And the only way to decide one way or the other is going to be facts, facts, facts. Let\’s hope that sopmeone is actually trying to collect them, eh?

21 thoughts on “Nope, I\’ve no idea here at all”

  1. The credit card operation was called Operation Ore.

    There’s a grain of truth in the whole Saville investigation, but it’s hidden in a silo full of grain of hangers-on who are using the story for their own purposes. From false memory type people like Karen to Jim Gamble who is using to expand his operations.

  2. You also need to look a bit further down the comments thread on Anna’s post. The box, apparently, has been returned to Barnardos. Including all the records from the era before it was run by them.

  3. Watching the Panorama story, you can see why Peter Rippon spiked it. A couple of people making accusations, and a police letter. Then it turned out that the letter was a forgery (provided by one of the women). Then that woman claimed that she had been duped herself.

    Maybe that is what happened. Maybe the women made the whole thing up. Maybe it happened, but they added some more jam onto the story to make sure it got broadcast. But he did his job right by looking at it and thinking that it wasn’t a particularly sound story.

  4. Operation Ore was so inept that false accusations resulted in dozens of suicides.

    The head of the Operation, Jim Gamble, went on to become the CEO of CEOP, the online child protection quango.

  5. The difficulty with operation Ore was that there were numerous stolen credit cards used by the paedo’s signing up to the service.

    The Rozzers (obviously) went after the owners of the cards causing heartfelt misery and suicides wherever they went.

    Of course, not all the credit card owners had their cards stolen. Some were well aware that they had entered their credit card details into the website to download photographs of child sex abuse taking place.

    Like Pete Townshend of “The Who” for example. There were others as well, from all walks of life, from teachers to judges to bank managers.

    If nothing else, it should teach you to run a close eye over your credit card statement to make sure their are no items that you didn’t order on it.

    You never know what interpretation some dopey plod will take. They were right about Pete Townshend, he should have gone to jail for that little escapade, but he got away with it because of his bullshit about ‘research’.

    Nevertheless, I doubt many parents would be asking “Uncle Pete” to babysit.

  6. Operation Ore was so inept that false accusations resulted in dozens of suicides.

    Yes, had to deal with the after-effects of a couple of those.

    To be fair to the UK investigators, they were comprehensively lied to by Michael Mead (US Postal Service) regarding the content of the Landslide post-payment page (i.e. it was a normal porn aggregator with some kiddy porn and piss-poor security against supplier fraud). However, it does not shine as one of the great successes of British justice – especially with the O’Shea appeal court judgement and considering the evident self-promoting zeal of a number of the senior law-enforcement people. Gamble gets a lot of the stick – because he is a particularly egregious example of the breed but neither Len Hynes nor many of the Met management come out of it well.

  7. All of these capers have radical femminazis right at the heart of them. In the Satanic panics they made a common cause with the very strange bedfellows of Fundamentalist Churchianity (I call then that to distinguish between them and some Christians who are good people). Both received benefits–the Xtians got publicity for their “Satan is real and everywhere” crap and the femmis delivered more propaganda about wicked rapin’ and killin’ men.

    In the current situation Saville is just a tool(no pun intended), a big(gish) media name to get the media circus and panic kicked off. It has been pointed out on other blogs that the “narrative” is already shifting from the increasingly outlandish claims being made about Saville to the “who knew about this and did nothing” because the femmis want an instituational narrative –as in “institutional racism” that has done so much to strengthen PC crap everywhere else. (credit to IanB for his insights here).

  8. numerous stolen credit cards used by the paedo’s signing up to the service

    No, that wasn’t the core mechanism. Although it did happen, the most common problem was that people signed up to perfectly legal pay-for porn sites and the site managers (not the Reddys but their customers) then signed people up, without their consent, for illegal sites. Knowing that the rate of complaints would be low but not guessing that (and I doubt they would have given a flying shit even if they did) the entire customer database would be seized.

  9. SE at 7 is correct about the mechanics of Ore.

    John Galt is wrong about Pete Townshend: he accepted a police caution, as did many innocent people accused as part of Ore, because the credit card data was the only evidence against him. In Townshend’s case, this didn’t really matter because he doesn’t need regular jobs, CRB checks, etc; many other innocent people took the police caution because the cops lied to them that it would make everything go away (neglecting to mention that it still gets you on the SOR, failing CRBs, and so on).

    The people who were prosecuted were only the ones whose computers also contained CP, because the cops knew that no case based solely on the tainted credit card data would ever have stood up in court.

  10. The problem is memory. Memories decay with time, even short periods of time, blanks get filled in with what probably happened, or could have happened, or what we prefer to think happened, confused with other events, or influenced by the accounts of others.

    Perceptions differ: just ask two people to give an account of something they witnessed.

    And with claims of “abuse” it is very often the word of one person against the other. Why should one involved party’s memory and perception be more accurate than the other?

    Perhaps it is time to put a statue of limitations on claims of “abuse”.

  11. If they didn’t do one, they should have.

    A Gilbert and Sullivan opera:

    “It’s so much easier when they’re dead, dead, dead,
    It’s so much easier when they’re dead”

  12. Well, the whole thing has reeked of being a “Survivor” construction from day one. I said on this here blog that the Jimmy, Gary and Freddie story was implausible, and I stick with that.

    The point is that it is all based on a false paradigm developed by the Rad Feminists; that men are a rape conspiracy (“the rape class” in the parlance) and from that perspective, these massive “rings” of “paedophiles” seem plausible. If you stick with reality though; a tiny number of men (and women) will do unspeakable things to infants, and a much larger cohort give in to normal biological urges with attractive “jailbait” because hormones and genes know nothing of 19th century First Wave Feminist legal constructs, the whole thing falls apart.

    One way that States go mad is when they subscribe to conspiracy theories. People oftne use the Nazi regime as an example of racism, but that misses the point. The Nazis believed that the Jews were a conspiracy to destroy Germany (and Aryans in general) and once you believe that, you see the hand of The Jews everywhere, and logic leads you to have to destroy them all. Rad Feminism sees the hand of “the rape class” everywhere, and logic leads them…

    Karin Ward is a writer of “abuse memoirs”. None of the MSM have mentioned this, even though her books are freely Googlable on Amazon. The whole thing has been following a pattern easily recongisable to anyone who has been following and studying this phenomenon for a long time (I have been, since SRA). One thing is that it is based on the rejection of englightenment-style evidence based reasoning, to be replaced with religious- style “witnessing” and “testimony”; the Feminists call this consciousness raising. What is true is not what can be proved to be true, but what you believe to be true, and facts must be rejected if they do not fit that belief.

    It seems likely that Savile, like so many other music industry celebs at the time, could or did have sex with teenage fans, some of whom would have been under the age of consent; as I said before, liberals at the time (and entertainment is always liberal in culture) considered the AoC as archaic as the buggery laws. But the “witnessing” upon which this story has been based does not plausibly describe the entertainment industry at the time and its attitudes (of which I have some personal knowedge) and the portrayal of Duncroft I would more tentatively say (having no personal knowledge) never sounded plausible either, but did fit into the conspiracy theory of paedophile “rings” and “the rape class”.

    It’s time for this Feminist-driven Reign Of Terror to end. The Abuse Conspiracists have “bet the farm” on this one, leaving them dangerously exposed if and when it unravels. If this is not the beginning of the end, we can at least hope that this is the end of the beginning.

  13. @IanB,

    Rapturous applause. There is one flaw n your argument.

    There will emerge a plausible, credible, possibly even substantiated story of JS having fucked a 15 years +364 days girl. Therefore the west is full of pedo rings covered up at the highest levels of The Establishment and all men are rapists.

  14. Can I suggest the relocation of all Feminazis to Talibanistan? On reflection I think it’s a match made in ?????.

  15. Blaming radical feminists for the allegations against Jimmy Savile is absurd. Radical feminists do not write The Sun or The Daily Mail. Nor are they prominent in the Metropolitan Police.

    And, incidentally, “the rape class” in the jargon means women, not men. Pay attention at the back there IanB.

  16. Paul, your relentless denialism and nitpickery is not conducive to fruitful discussion.

    I should have said “class who rape” to be entirely jargon-tastic. It’s interesting to note though that you repeatedly use this kind of wearisome nitpickery because you can’t answer the main point, as with the marginal propensity to consume and all that.

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    PaulB – “Blaming radical feminists for the allegations against Jimmy Savile is absurd. Radical feminists do not write The Sun or The Daily Mail. Nor are they prominent in the Metropolitan Police.”

    No but they are not under-represented among the people who have created this climate of fear and panic are they? In fact them and the Mary Whitehouse tendency, such as is left, are more or less entirely responsible.

    Don’t forget Bea Campbell is still unrepentent about her book on Satanic abuse.

  18. It seems to me that the climate is more one of outrage than of fear and panic, and that it’s been created by the popular press, in so far as it needed creating. Who listens to radical feminists?

    It also seems to me that the main cause of the allegations against Jimmy Savile is likely to be the behaviour of Jimmy Savile. But enquiries are proceeding and I’m in no hurry to find out.

    IanB: see that word “incidentally”? That means that I wasn’t addressing the main point, for which you should have read my first paragraph. But if you choose to lecture us on feminist parlance, you shouldn’t be surprised if someone points out when you’ve got it completely wrong.

  19. ….Karin Ward is a writer of “abuse memoirs”. None of the MSM have mentioned this, even though her books are freely Googlable on Amazon…..

    I wasn’t able to find them

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