There’s both supply and demand in any market

Blimey:

Not being, or knowing, or related to a sex worker does not mean being unmoved or unharmed by the fact of women being for sale, in a market driven solely by men.

A market of consenting adults cannot be driven solely by one side of the equation. By definition there must be those willing to supply under the terms on offer. The supplier drives the market just as much as the consumer does.

37 thoughts on “There’s both supply and demand in any market”

  1. “At risk of having the wrong background to qualify for an opinion on this subject…”

    But, for the ‘Guardian’ possessing the right equipment.

  2. So Much for Subtlety

    If they are for sale – and let me stress they aren’t – then we are not dealing with a market between consenting adults. It is possible that this is a market driven entirely by men who provide the money and kidnap/shanghai/waylay or whatever the women. Not likely but possible.

    The problem is that this lying wench is lying to us. As there are no trafficked women, it is dishonest to bring this myth up in conversation. And I say that as someone who thinks prostitute ought to be illegal.

  3. Well, it’s just the Victorian Era dogma that no woman in her right mind would sell sex, so it must be somebody else’s fault. Either she’s been forced into it, or brainwashed into thinking she wants to do it. By the patriarchy.

    The interesting point is that she’s using risk to prostitutes as an excuse for prohibition/sympathy raiser. This is the same as arguing that we need to prohibit banks because they are at risk of being robbed by a small minority of “customers” who are actually really interested in committing a crime against them.

  4. Thankfully while the Guardian does publish a lot of nonsense because they put out so much mindlesss chat occasionally something gets through and they had a good article on the same day celebrating the failure of the bill to make it illegal in the UK and arguing for full legalisation and regulation.

    Also the commentator ‘So Much for Subtlety’ – are you insane? Why on earth do you think the well documented abuse/rape of trafficked women (and girls) is a myth? That’s like saying murder is a myth. To suggest that is vicious and cruel in a really nasty way.

    It’s one of the key reasons why there is no tolerable way to justify keeping prostitution underground and completely unregulated.

  5. Trafficking as presented is a myth. It’s simply a revival of the equally invented “White Slave” panic of a century ago, by the same movement.

  6. We should however be cautious of the calls for legalisation and regulation. Regulation presents a particular problem in prostitution, since in our Puritan societies, it is a despised trade. It shouldn’t be, but it is. This means that a woman who works in it won’t want to be on record as having done so. Think of a young woman doing it for a little while (perhaps to earn some money while at college) who twenty years later is standing for parliament, or just getting on with a career, and somebody finds she was on the prossie register.

    This means that licensing both brothels and prostitutes forces women into a dilemma of whether to legally register or work unlicensed; and this means that you’ll get a cohort of illegal prostitutes and brothels which the Mutaween can go after with gay abandon. It is currently legal (though most practises associated with it are not) in England but not regulated as such. For those places where it is legal, calls for legalisation should be accompanied by demands that it not be regulated.

  7. Maybe the Victorians got exercised about prostitution for practical as well as moral reasons, seeing as how 1. there was an awful lot of it and 2. there was no reliable cure for the associated STDs.

    Maybe we should regulate them by beauty contest. “You’re a dog. You shouldn’t be on the streets.”

  8. So Much for Subtlety

    GS – “Also the commentator ‘So Much for Subtlety’ – are you insane?”

    Well if you asked around here, hmmm, let’s say the jury is still out.

    “Why on earth do you think the well documented abuse/rape of trafficked women (and girls) is a myth?”

    Because it is not well documented. It is a myth. A myth that relies on a stupid re-definition of the word “trafficked”.

    “That’s like saying murder is a myth. To suggest that is vicious and cruel in a really nasty way.”

    Really? If I say that you think I am going to make one of God’s little angels cry? It is not like saying murder is a myth because murders exist with victims and perpetrators. Human trafficking in the UK does not. At least not as normal people understand trafficking. And

    “It’s one of the key reasons why there is no tolerable way to justify keeping prostitution underground and completely unregulated.”

    It does not matter who misuses this myth. It is a myth. It is worse than that. It is a cynical lie – and it will remain so if it is used to support politics I like or politics I oppose.

    Ian B – “Regulation presents a particular problem in prostitution, since in our Puritan societies, it is a despised trade. It shouldn’t be, but it is. This means that a woman who works in it won’t want to be on record as having done so.”

    Well no. It is despised all over the world. Rightly. Because it is incredibly damaging to the women who do it. It doesn’t matter if it is legal or not. A woman who sleeps around a lot becomes less and less capable of maintaining a normal relationship with any man.

    “Think of a young woman doing it for a little while (perhaps to earn some money while at college) who twenty years later is standing for parliament, or just getting on with a career, and somebody finds she was on the prossie register.”

    Someone is held accountable for their past choices? The horror.

    bloke in france – “Maybe we should regulate them by beauty contest. “You’re a dog. You shouldn’t be on the streets.””

    I would think it would work the other way. Some ugly women do seem, sometimes, to have a special relationship with prostitution. Andrea Dworkin, for instance, who managed to come up with a way of spending her entire life writing and thinking about sex with men, did voluntarily work as a prostitute in the Netherlands.

  9. As somebody who lives close enough to the Bois de Boulogne to know what the prostitutes look like, I can assure you there is absolutely no barrier to entry to the profession based on looks. The transvestites are the worst: Thai ladyboys I get, they’re undoubtedly attractive. But a Frenchman with designer stubble wearing makeup, high heels, and a mini skirt? How does a market exist for that?

  10. SMFS – “A woman who sleeps around a lot becomes less and less capable of maintaining a normal relationship with any man.”

    Really? I know a few women who have slept around a lot in their (cough) younger days. No problems at all these days, one has been married for over 40 years.
    One young lady was a £2k a week escort as a teenager, she ended up buying a house for cash, great holidays and lovely clothes – now she’s happily married and working an office job she loves.

  11. I knew a lot of hookers in Dubai who were deeply fucked up because of it. I think it’s one thing to be a £2k per night “escort” and another to be a regular hooker closer to the bottom end of the trade. My Russian teacher knew them quite well as she was teaching them English, and she said if they weren’t yanked out of the game within the first couple of months, they were lost. In my ow personal experience, they never quite stop being hookers, I.e. always on the lookout for the next punter who can offer then a bit more *right now* without any consideration for the medium or long term.

    I wrote about it years ago here.

  12. It doesn’t even work. The Swedes only make it work by measuring street prostitution, which of course declines when you criminalise punters who then favour arrangements via internet/cell phone.

    The UK has a vanishing small number of street walkers since kerb crawling laws/shaming was introduced. Former streetwalkers now operate on sites like Adult work and do outcalls instead.

    The problem for most antis is that they really aren’t very bright, and most governments only pass these laws to get their votes. Very few politicians give a shit about prostitution and don’t see it as a priority. So, they pass laws with trivial penalties, have the odd token raid, produce reports on how effective their laws are and these dim women think they scored a victory. If politicians had been serious in Sweden, you wouldn’t have had a couple of Swedish politicians getting caught doing it.

  13. @TIm Newman: It’s a corollary of Rule 34: Any sex activity you can think of as a weird kink, somebody else out there will consider a pleasurable fetish.

  14. “A woman who sleeps around a lot becomes less and less capable of maintaining a normal relationship with any man.”

    Well, as a paragon of honesty, dedicated to exposing myths or downright lies wherever they are spread I’m sure you’ll be delighted to take the opportunity to present the evidence – not anecdote of course – for this enlightened and not in the least bit misogynistic insight.

  15. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Note the Grauniad harridan adduces the danger to women as one of the reasons to ban prostitution. Do you think she would make the same argument for outlawing other things for which there will be a demand, ban or no, viz. drugs, abortion? Modern Leftism doesn’t seem to consist of a coherent, logically consistent philosophy but more a set of (sometimes mutually antagonistic) moralistic poses.

  16. BiCA
    Quite. In Guardianland obesity if the fault of the supplier, but prostitution is the fault of the consumer.
    Make your “minds” up.

  17. BiCR-

    Well, my view is that Progressivism (modern Leftism) consists of two elements; a set of value judgements derived primarily from Puritanism, combined with a class power analysis derived from Marxism. If you take those two things on board you can with a high degree of certainty derive or predict the “Progressive” policy on any issue.

    As we all know, where uncertainties arise due to internal contradictions, a “top trumps” rule is applied to which class gets the Progressive’s favour.

  18. So Much for Subtlety

    Martin Davies – “Really? I know a few women who have slept around a lot in their (cough) younger days. No problems at all these days, one has been married for over 40 years.”

    No problems that you know of. The risk of divorce rises rapidly with the number of sexual partners. I am actually mildly surprised but there does seem to be a risk.

    “One young lady was a £2k a week escort as a teenager, she ended up buying a house for cash, great holidays and lovely clothes – now she’s happily married and working an office job she loves.”

    No doubt she told her husband and family.

    Ironman – “Well, as a paragon of honesty, dedicated to exposing myths or downright lies wherever they are spread I’m sure you’ll be delighted to take the opportunity to present the evidence – not anecdote of course – for this enlightened and not in the least bit misogynistic insight.”

    Well no. The misogynistic insight is compulsory I am afraid. Although it is interesting to see what a weird fantasy you have about me. You must think about me a lot. I get it, I really do. But, trust me, the feeling is not mutual.

  19. No not a lot. But when I do I usually think “thick racist arsehole”. Now I can think ” thick misogynistic racist arsehole”.

  20. @ SMFS
    ““Why on earth do you think the well documented abuse/rape of trafficked women (and girls) is a myth?”
    Because it is not well documented. It is a myth. A myth that relies on a stupid re-definition of the word “trafficked”.”
    Actually there is documentation – last week the sentencing of a woman who used the fear of “juju” to traffick Nigerian women and co-erce them to work in brothels was reported.
    There are well-documented cases to prove that over half-a-dozen women have been trafficked into the sex trade in the UK. The sex trade is *not* one the areas I study, so I cannot hazard a guess as to what %age that comprises of the total number of workers in the sex trade.

  21. Half a dozen women might be a true figure. As opposed to tens of thousands claimed.
    If you want figures see the link I posted above. The site has hundreds of blog entries covering every aspect of the topic.

  22. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “No not a lot. But when I do I usually think “thick racist arsehole”. Now I can think ” thick misogynistic racist arsehole”.”

    Cool story bro.

    john77 – “Actually there is documentation – last week the sentencing of a woman who used the fear of “juju” to traffick Nigerian women and co-erce them to work in brothels was reported.”

    OK. Usually I say there is virtually no evidence of it. This may be a case. But keep in mind that juju rarely scares grown ups. While women from traditional societies who do not want their families to know they are working as prostitutes might well claim some other reason to explain why they are doing so.

    “There are well-documented cases to prove that over half-a-dozen women have been trafficked into the sex trade in the UK.”

    Half a dozen? That many. Out of how many in the UK? People regularly raid brothels. They virtually never find anyone who even claims to be trafficked in a real sense. It is so rare it may as well not exist at all.

  23. hile women from traditional societies who do not want their families to know they are working as prostitutes might well claim some other reason to explain why they are doing so.

    This is true. Usually when a Nigerian maid, driver, or nanny is caught stealing or lying, after a week of denials you get a confession followed by “the devil made me do it”. Whereas in actual fact they were just plain old untrustworthy.

  24. @Tim N

    Was there a lot of drug use also (in Dubai) or do the authorities keep them off the coke?

    @Ironman

    Not wishing to insert myself into your SMFS thing, but is it “misogynist” to suggest that women evolved to seek stable relationships in which to rear children and men to sow seed etc? If it’s true, I mean?

  25. Interested

    Fine, if it’s true and if we have genuinely shown that this is he case. In which case the results of this research have obviously been suppressed by the Great Conspiracy. The alternative is someone is a misogynist – as well as a long-established racist.

  26. So Much for Subtlety

    Interested – “but is it “misogynist” to suggest that women evolved to seek stable relationships in which to rear children and men to sow seed etc? If it’s true, I mean?”

    Then it would be what they call a hate-fact wouldn’t it?

    Ironman – “In which case the results of this research have obviously been suppressed by the Great Conspiracy.”

    I don’t know how something that is all but shouted from every roof top can be said to be suppressed.

    “The alternative is someone is a misogynist – as well as a long-established racist.”

    There is a third choice – that name calling is something most teenage Trots grow out of.

  27. Interested,

    No, they didnt use coke. There was plenty of it about, mostly for use by wealthy, bored Arab youths, but you didn’t see it in the hooker bars and I am fairly certain they didn’t use it.

  28. Well established fact? That a woman who sleeps with lots of men then has difficulties establishing a relationship buy no matching finding for men?

    As I say produce the research to prove it and I’ll be interested to read it. Otherwise I form opinions on the predisposition of those who would advance their thoughts as self evident ‘facts’ .

  29. wasn’t it GB Shaw who pointed out that the “oldest profession” implied that there was a buyer waiting…Why cannot people accept that the sex trade is here to stay?

  30. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Well established fact? That a woman who sleeps with lots of men then has difficulties establishing a relationship buy no matching finding for men?”

    As usual the problem is your poor understanding of what I said and what Interested said. He said:

    “but is it “misogynist” to suggest that women evolved to seek stable relationships in which to rear children and men to sow seed etc?”

    And I pointed out this is well established when you objected.

    It is not particularly well established that lots of sexual partners raise the risk of divorce. But there is evidence that suggests it is true.

    I made no comment whatsoever about men. You have no idea if I think it is true or not for men.

    As usual your problem with what I said do not lie in what I said but what you imagine I said.

  31. Evolutionary psychology is pretty much a pseudo-science. I wouldn’t put too much store in conclusions like “women evolved to seek stable relationships in which to rear children and men to sow seed etc”.

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