On the incidence of paedophilia

So here’s a thing:

Police are investigating claims that up to five paedophile rings operated at the heart of Westminster with the involvement of “highly influential” politicians.

A Labour MP who has handed a dossier of evidence to Scotland Yard said he now believed the complexity of child abuse networks at the heart of government in the Seventies and Eighties had been seriously underestimated.

I have absolutely no idea what anyone thinks the incidence of paedophilia is. And note here that we’re talking about “stranger” rather than inter-familial (and thus more akin to “rape rape” as Whoopi said).

Apparently the claim is that 22 people who were either MPs or Lords were involved in a two decade period. It’s a bit of a floating population so, say, 2,000 people? 11 in 1,000 are stranger paedophiles?

Is the claim that politicians are uniquely awful or that this is the general number in the population?

I have no idea at all: does anyone else?

42 thoughts on “On the incidence of paedophilia”

  1. You seem to be implying that ‘stranger’ paedophilia is ‘rape rape’ whilst ‘inter-familial’ paedophilia is just ‘rape’ so not as bad? Or am I misinterpreting?

    As to your question, even if there were accurate statistics (doubtful – paedophiles lie), they’ll obviously be generalised which doesn’t mean that the incidence falls equally everywhere. Clusters happen.

  2. IMHO the MP paedophile ring fails the sniff test. It’s a lot like the recent Rolling Stone rape case – it has the feel of a story that is so useful to the usual culprits that it simply MUST be true.

    It reeks of the old masonic/witchcraft/satanic-cult/insert cabalistic conspiracy here vision of one’s enemies planning evil deeds from red curtained rooms whilst bathing in the blood of infants between sips of expensive claret.

    It’s a hysterical melodramatic vision of evil.

  3. Don’t worry about the numbers Tim. That would give a gloss to bogus garbage.Politics is a scummy profession that attracts those who want to steal and above all lord it over others. But paedos?. Why should paedos be attracted there more than any other area? The The femmi-answer of course is that the patriarchy has protected them–just as Jimmy Saville had about 4 careers on the ago and still supposedly managed to commit literally thousands of sex crimes without anybody noticing or doing anything about it. Lots of sex crime were ignored in Rotherham of course–but that was socialism on the job not the non-existent patriarchy.

    This is more propaganda designed to put the femmi-inquisition at the (black) heart of power. First 30 plus years of the ever-growing cry of paedo, paedo, paedo. Then the Saville caper, then the show trials . And now a chance to stalk the corridors of power using the same standards of proof –ie none beyond unsupported accusation–that have so far prevailed. Knock down a lot of male political hacks and leave the way clear of a new generation of female hacks. Who will –the hope is, I think– put a collar and lead on the UKs male population.

    If there is the slightest kernel of truth it will prob be old homos pursing adolescent males. Wonder if IanB’s theory that the left might throw gays to the wolves is on the cards?.

  4. @”Stuck-Record
    December 22, 2014 at 11:00 am

    IMHO the MP paedophile ring fails the sniff test. It’s a lot like the recent Rolling Stone rape case – it has the feel of a story that is so useful to the usual culprits that it simply MUST be true.”
    Yes and no. It sounds hard to believe but then again a lot of things about Jimmy Saville were hard to believe and for some of them there are photographic evidence.

  5. So Much for Subtlety

    It is the witch craft trials all over again. They start out accusing the occasional random odd bod. Then they work their way up the social scale until people accuse the Pope and the King of forming a Satanic Coven together.

    It is the mentally ill being exploited by the politically disgusting.

    And about as rational as David Icke.

  6. No, not implying “less wrong” only different. We know that “sate rape” and “statutory rape” are much more common than “stranger rape”. We also think we know that inter-familial paedophuilia is more common than stranger paedophilia. That’s all.

  7. I neither know nor care.

    I suspect that this is a confection cobbled together by people who have an axe to grind and I deprecate the people and their axe, relying as they do entirely on the prurience of the rest of us.

  8. @Mr Ecks

    VERY occasionally, it’s reported that there ARE female child sex abusers – Childline for example hs said that around 15% of the calls it gets are from children being abused by women and rationally it’s surely no surprise. If there are men wired up to find yound children sexually attractive, why not women?

    But as you imply it’s one of those ‘sweep it under the carpet and concentrate on EVIL NASTY MEN’ things like domestic violence.

    If you happened to be a pyscho, sexual predator or just plain evil, it’d be much easier to operate if you were a woman.

  9. A witness who has played a critical role in the inquiry so far, known only as “Nick”, is understood to have told detectives he saw a Conservative MP strangle a 12-year-old boy to death at an orgy in around 1980

    Fuck me, it’s Satanic Panic 2.0

  10. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Worstall – “We also think we know that inter-familial paedophuilia is more common than stranger paedophilia.”

    We think we know. But the same people who claim that, also claim one in four women are raped in college etc etc.

    It is likely to be b0ll0cks. So to speak.

  11. As long as all the accusations are against members of only one party – whichever party that is – it’s probably bollocks. After all, to take an example, surely nobody believes that Mandelson was the only MP to commit mortgage fraud – he was just the one who got caught.

  12. On reflection, my example is a lousy one; after all there is no doubt Mandelson committed mortgage fraud as part of some dodgy financial transaction, whereas the peeeedophile stuff may be entirely rubbish. God alone knows.

  13. David.

    Yes, Saville was a creep. But there is always something suspicious about the claims for ‘organised’ abuse. I know it happens, but the reality is that the groups doing it are protected by cultural approval (Rotheram et al) or are so unimaginably seedy individuals that they are below everyone’s radar.

    As Tim says above, we must start from a premise that either
    a. Ambition for politics is strongly linked to paedophelia.
    or
    b. Being in politics gives one a taste for paedophelia.

    So the assumption made is that it is uniquely politics and, by inference, Tory politics that attracts/creates an attraction to children and a desire to murder them. Strange that all the other high achieving careers are uncorrupted by this desire? Where are the cabals of Hollywood producers, union leaders, heads of NGOs, city financiers, record label moguls, chief police officers, Generals and Field Marshalls?

    Isn’t it odd that all these groups seem perfectly content with hookers and drugs?

    If any bookie would take the bet I’d put money that this one is going to turn out like the MacAlpine mess, or the recent Iraqi abuse debacle. Namely that everyone is building a a mesmerising castle of gold, silver and jewels on a shitty patch of quicksand.

  14. So Much for Subtlety

    Stuck-Record – “Strange that all the other high achieving careers are uncorrupted by this desire? Where are the cabals of Hollywood producers, union leaders, heads of NGOs, city financiers, record label moguls, chief police officers, Generals and Field Marshalls?”

    Well I think that is mostly because you have not been keeping up. There have been allegation of cabals of Hollywood producers recently. They were going to make a film about it. The record label moguls go without saying but we are up to three of four major starlets alleging something – including Lady Gaga and Iggy Azelea. Not a cabal as such, but rape-y rape-y behaviour.

    There have been allegations against Army officers such as Lord Slim. Which I am not inclined to believe. Mountbatten was blown up with several teenage boys. Who had, I am fairly sure, perfectly innocent reasons to be on his boat. But it wouldn’t happen these days.

    There have been allegations against orphanages in both France and Portugal in recent times. As there have been in the UK. The UK ones look true in Wales but b0ll0cks in Jersey. The French and Portuguese ones? Not so much.

  15. Where are the cabals of … chief police officers, Generals and Field Marshalls?

    The Dolphin Square allegations include judges, police and military figures as well as politicians. None of that makes them true, or false, however.

  16. Paedophilia is sexual interest/activity with a child before puberty.

    The term has become a catch-all for ‘under-age’ sexual activity in the media not known for being acurate or factual about anything as long as it can make a headline and sell.

    Most of what gets reported as paedophilia is actually ‘under-age’ sex, although what constitutes ‘under-age’ varies within Europe from 13 to 18.

    Historic ‘paedophilia’ needs to be considered regarding what was ‘under-age’ at the time particularly if males were involved, as the age of consent after 1968 has been 21, 18, now 16.

  17. @”Mr Ecks
    December 22, 2014 at 11:09 am

    David: What photographic evidence?

    The mail published a photo of Saville groping a girl whilst on Top of the Pops. If he did something like that he must have thought he could get away with almost anything.

  18. SMFS

    But the defining nonsense of this current scare is the murder.

    It’s the over-egging, the satanic repressed memories, the ‘shattered glass’ on the floor, that always leap out of these allegations.

    David Thompson is very good on the competitive nature of the narcissistic modern left and the victim culture they have created.

    Colour me skeptical.

  19. Is the claim that politicians are uniquely awful or that this is the general number in the population?

    Neither. The claim is that predatory paedophiles prefer to get themselves into positions of abusable power.

    Stuck-Record,

    > So the assumption made is that it is uniquely politics and, by inference, Tory politics that attracts/creates an attraction to children and a desire to murder them. Strange that all the other high achieving careers are uncorrupted by this desire? Where are the cabals of Hollywood producers, union leaders, heads of NGOs, city financiers, record label moguls, chief police officers, Generals and Field Marshalls?

    I can only assume that you haven’t seen the news for a few years. The name Gary Glitter not ring any bells? Really? Roman Polanski? R Kelly? Ian Watkins?

    Finding predatory paedophile police officers takes seconds of searching.

  20. David, you call that evidence. Laughable. Many of the DJs on TotP “groped” girls as can be seen by watching any of the videos of the show. But they were not groped in a sexual manner on TV in a crowd. The men might have had their arms around the girls, but it was not sexual. Nor was it one way, the girls would’ve been crowding round the DJs desperate to appear on TV and would do anything to get their 15 seconds of fame.

    What about the times when the girls sexually groped the men? – Top of the Pops (5th May 1977)

  21. David,

    If that was one of the Nolans, that was shown while he was still alive and no-one reported him to the police and nor did they investigate it involving Jimmy Savile having his arm around her but higher than where you’d normally have your hand. There’s even one of those old clip shows where she talked about it. Why didn’t the CPS prosecute him, or the media urge prosecution if they thought that it was such a criminal act?

  22. The mail published a photo of Saville groping a girl whilst on Top of the Pops. If he did something like that he must have thought he could get away with almost anything.

    I hold no candle for Jimmy Saville. He was a weirdo and personally I wouldn’t let my kid within 100 yards of him.

    That being said, I’ve seen the photo of Saville from Top of the Pops and you could print out about 200 different scenes over the years of similar behaviour by DJ’s over the years and this is the thing. Standards of behaviour have changed and the media sees things through the lens of paedophile hysteria whereas at most it was blokey leering.

    So does that mean that all of those DJ’s should be up before the beak on charges of being a paedo-monster? No, because until recently we didn’t judge the past by the prejudices of the present – one of the many reasons why laws aren’t retrospective (tax laws exempted and even them mostly not).

    Coming back to Saville – If he was guilty then he should have been charged when he was alive. The possibility is that the police screwed up, possibly not, but making “He Said / She Said” accusations (i.e. without physical evidence or witnesses) after someone is dead is the easiest thing in the world, especially when those allegations are decades old.

    The fact that we’re about to hand over the majority of Jimmy Saville’s estate to lawyers and their clients claiming this bullshit is the point at which British Justice “jumped the shark” and cannot in truth be described as justice any more. This is trial by media and judgement based upon pure accusation.

    Stalin would be proud.

  23. I daresay if this carries on, they’ll dig up one or two closeted old queens with rent boys as “proof”. The whole thing is running on the conspiracy theory model, and has been since the feminists mainstreamed SRA in the 1980s. “Satanic Abuse” never went away. It just got rebranded as “paedophile rings”.

  24. Although the past is not an accurate guide to the present it can be a pretty good guide, especially as “moral panics” (as the latest round of paedo-hysteria is) have been documented for centuries.

    Just because paedophiles lusting after young boys / girls is more believable that “penis snatchers” or UFO’s, doesn’t make it any more real.

    Looking back at historic claims that were investigated as group-sexual abuse of children by adults, how many of them turned out to be real? Virtually none.

    The root cause of most of these cases was over eager social services and/or medical staff (e.g. “recovered memories”, misinterpretation of medical examinations, etc.)

    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, because it does, but it tends to be in families / extended family groups / small communities – although those in power (as with the Dolphin Square allegations) are often accused, their is seldom any truth in this when the allegations are investigated.

    The idea that even an MP, Judge or high-ranking member of the armed forces can go around murdering kids without being brought to book would be laughable if it wasn’t such a serious accusation.

    These accusations are the product of the delusional and the only reason they are given any credence is that the whole “we must believe” of the feminist “rape culture” narrative has infested the entire establishment, not helped by the biased views of DPP Alison Saunders.

  25. It’s worth noting that the whole patttern of “recovered memories” that underpinned SRA first found credibility (among the credulous, at least) with UFO abductions. There isn’t an interesting evolutionary path of these ideas that somebody could write a good book or several about.

    I first got interested myself in this long before the internets due to an interest in “Forteana”; not because I believe(d) in UFOs, but it seemed apparent to me that the widespread belief in UFO abductions/contacts and other supranormal experiences deserved far more study as a phenomenon. All the stuff the X Files later tapped into.

    I’ve just been having an exhausting internetty argument over at the Libertarian Alliance blog about the human experience of reality with people who (like most people, and particularly many libertarians) think that the human brain can reliably tap into what objective reality is. I don’t think so. I think we’re highly subjective, unreliable creatures whose grip on “the truth [which] is out there” is far more tenuous than we like to believe. Which is why we have developed epistemologies like science which, while itself imperfect, attempts to limit the human mind’s enormous capacity for (a) making shit up and then (b) being way too certain that it’s true.

  26. bloke (not) in spain

    Lets go back to the question Tim actually asked.

    “Is the claim that politicians are uniquely awful or that this is the general number in the population?”

    We’re sorting by:
    a)Those who wish to become politicians.
    b)Those who succeed in becoming politicians.
    c)Add a very much higher incidence of single-sex public schooling. Likely to some influence on a) & considerable influence on b). Peer group preference.
    d)Higher incidence of personal wealth. Wealth does equal power. Likely to influence a), b) & c)
    So we are sorting for a restricted sub-group of the general population.

    We could also sort for other markers & deduce:
    Incidence of perpetrating GBH after pub closing.
    Incidence of arrest for selling crack on street corners.
    Incidence for taking holidays in Torquay.

    Which would vary from the general population.
    Just saying.

  27. This is also a rational argument for some form of statute of limitations on these offences, not because I believe that people who committed offences long ago should get away with it, but rather that it is very difficult to tell the difference between someone who has difficulty recollecting events from 30, 40 or even 50 years ago and someone who is just making shit up for a chance at some compo.

    If there wasn’t the tempting possibility of raiding Saville’s estate then how many people would have actually made unsubstantiated claims against him?

    The “Dolphin Square” allegations have a different character, being an anti-establishment attack, but is no more credible at this stage than David Icke’s claim that we’re being ruled by lizard people.

    If people have evidence about “Dolphin Square” then they should make them to the police and they should be investigated and if it turns out that it was utter bullshit (which it probably is), then they should be charged for wasting police time.

  28. @Stigler
    “David,

    If that was one of the Nolans, that was shown while he was still alive and no-one reported him to the police”
    No it was a different one sorry I can’t find it now.

  29. Squander.

    I won’t disagree there are these people in every walk of life. The issue is in the nature of the accusations. The aggrandisement. It can’t just be a perv. It has to be THE ESTABLISHMENT. The secret cabalistic plot. The portrayal of these activities as part of a regular club or initiation or secret rite – as opposed to a lecherous scumbag – that make my spidey-sense tingle. It’s masonic, it’s the Bilderberg, it’s the Jewish Blood libel. It’s always the powerful group of insiders who control everything…blah, blah, blah.

    All that aside, in this case it’s the accusation of repeated murders that jars most strongly for me. It reminds me too much of Cleveland and the US repressed memories murdered babies bollocks.

  30. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Mountbatten was blown up with several teenage boys. Who had, I am fairly sure, perfectly innocent reasons to be on his boat

    There were two teenage boys killed with Mountbatten; one was his grandson, the other a crew member. An old lady also died.

  31. All that aside, in this case it’s the accusation of repeated murders that jars most strongly for me. It reminds me too much of Cleveland and the US repressed memories murdered babies bollocks.

    Basically – Yes.

    They don’t pass the sniff test.

    Anti-establishment, accusation without evidence, accusing the dead, high profile, paedophilia…

    All we are missing is Aleister Crowley in a goat mask and we are done.

    Grade A Prime Bullshit.

  32. Regarding teenage boys and boats, nobody is going to be satisfied until it’s accepted that it was Ted Heath in the goat mask running satanic buggeration orgies on the Morning Cloud.

  33. Stuck-Record – It reeks of the old masonic/witchcraft/satanic-cult/insert cabalistic conspiracy here vision of one’s enemies planning evil deeds from red curtained rooms whilst bathing in the blood of infants between sips of expensive claret.

    It’s a hysterical melodramatic vision of evil.

    It’s very Eyes Wide Shut, isn’t it?

    Apparently there’s a guy saying “he saw a Conservative MP strangle a 12-year-old boy to death at an orgy in around 1980”.

    I find this about as believable as if someone told me he’d seen Bob Carolgees kick a swan to death on the set of Tiswas.

    I’ve no trouble believing that the odd MP may be a nonce. Or that maybe a small group of nonces had the odd noncey party back in the day, with rent boys in attendance. Maybe.

    But murdering a 12 year old boy at a paedophile party?

    Was this before or after the brandy and cigars?

    And what happened next – presumably every single nonce present agreed never to speak of it again, beyond using their uncanny Establishment powers to cover up a murder?

    What did they say to “Nick”? “Keep that murder you saw on the QT for the rest of your life, OK?”

    It’s not that easy to dispose of a body in London without it turning up later in a police investigation. 12 year olds tend to have things like parents, or foster parents, or carers, or teachers, or social workers, who would probably notice them suddenly disappearing one day without any explanation.

  34. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “Regarding teenage boys and boats, nobody is going to be satisfied until it’s accepted that it was Ted Heath in the goat mask running satanic buggeration orgies on the Morning Cloud.”

    Well I for one am not. Make me think of lot better of the man.

  35. “I find this about as believable as if someone told me he’d seen Bob Carolgees kick a swan to death on the set of Tiswas.”

    It was a goose.

    I was there. One minute innocent fun, the next blood and goose guts all over the studio. They hushed it up, of course, by Lenny Henry doing an extended ‘Algernon Razzamataz” set.

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