What?

Never has there been such a wide chasm between social attitudes and the law on lesbian and gay issues.

What?

The current western world is the least discriminatory society there’s ever been on such issues. What’s Bindel on about?

78 thoughts on “What?”

  1. Yes, but Bindel can’t admit that*, cause that’d be her out of a job wouldn’t it? This latest list of grievances is rather thin stuff compared to the debates of yesteryear– the word ‘Tolerance’ is not good apparently.

    * Well, she could obviously, but that’d require a level of honestly Bindel does not possess.

  2. it’s like Tim Cook getting the FT’s person of the year and part of it being for coming out as gay. He’s a well-protected person, in a very modern tolerant industry selling products to liberals that don’t care (many of whom would find themselves ostracized by their friends for saying that they were switching to Android because of it). Yes, you can find a few East Texas bible bashers who will boycott Apple, but Apple’s got a bigger problem with their uninspiring product developments than Cook’s sexuality.

    It’s hardly Tom Robinson standing on stage singing about it 10 years after it was legalised, or Justin Fashanu having to face rival fans.

  3. And Bindel “I want us to demand respect and acceptance”.

    Demand? Can one demand respect or acceptance?

    And I can’t say I’ve ever respected one of my fellow heteros for the mere fact of their being het, or refused to accept that a gay friend is in fact gay.

  4. I read that article earlier. At first I was wtf?!? Then I took it to mean that things have ‘progressed’ legally faster than socially. Which would make the ‘chasm’ bigger even though both legal and social attitudes are less discriminatory. Basically, a new thing to moan about now the old ones have been made as she likes.

  5. Quite, D J
    Changes in the law usually lag changes in social attitudes. In the case of LGBT the law has probably overtaken them.

  6. “The current western world is the least discriminatory society there’s ever been on such issues.”

    Acutally, wouldn’t the Ancient Greeks win this contest?

  7. No, not really. The Ancient Greeks were quite approving of adult male on teenage boy stuff but most disapproving of adult male on adult male. Their attitude to lesbians, well, there was of course Sappho but other than that I know pretty much nothing.

  8. Their attitude to lesbians was that if they were caught, they were ostracised (socially, not legally) and forced to either starve or go on the game. Women were treated appallingly in Ancient Greece.

  9. ‘Women were treated appallingly in Ancient Greece.’

    Yes, they had a system called αδερφέ κουλτούρα, I think you’ll find.

    My mate Δαβίδ is an expert on it.

  10. So long as two women kissing in a trendy London venue can be told to stop because it is a “family restaurant” – as happened just last week – it remains obvious that, for some, our relationships are not seen as “normal” or familial.

    I sympathise.

    I don’t want to take the nippers to Frankie and Bennies and then have them staring at a couple of lezzers locking lips over their linguine.

    I’m pleased they aren’t oppressed, but Bindel is quite correct: Sapphic love is not normal or familial. Why would anybody claim it is?

    Grown women should be free to kiss each other all they want in the privacy of their own homes, specialty bars catering to their lifestyle, or subscription-based websites.

    But when you’re in a family restaurant, the owners have the right to ask you not to frighten the horses.

    Other pieces of legislation that have been introduced to achieve normative change, such as those to criminalise drink-driving, smacking children, smoking in public and sex discrimination in the workplace were preceded with public awareness campaigns as to why such laws were necessary. But equal marriage was introduced without much placard waving. It was more of a polite conversation between the campaigners and the legislators.

    Bindel is right. Gay marriage was sneaked onto the statute books by a political class that didn’t dare make an issue out of it during the general election, then congratulated itself for its ‘bravery’. It was an unedifying spectacle whatever one’s stance on the benefits or otherwise of gay marriage.

    Smoking was successfully demonised by a long campaign built on junk science and moralising finger-wagging about the supposed dangers of passive smoking.

    Smacking was criminalised by hysterical women of both sexes who fretted about children’s precious feels.

    I once drove a scooter while drunk and – even though I was only headed to the off licence – it was a hair raising enough experience that it led me to realise that maybe I was an alcoholic.

    we need to regain some of the radicalism we saw during the campaign against Section 28 in the 1980s, when lesbians abseiled down the House of Commons chamber, invaded the BBC during a live broadcast of the Six O’clock News, and demonstrated and picketed around the country.

    I suggest Julie start a group called “Lesbos 4 Justice” and do exactly that, while dressed as a chubby Batman. It would add much to the gaiety of the nation.

    for many of us, the opportunity to reject compulsory heterosexuality is liberating.

    As a bloke and a Patriarch, I can confirm that no man has ever tried to make heterosexuality compulsory for Julie Bindel.

    We need safe houses for the gay men and lesbians in this country who have no recourse to public funds

    Bring back Rod and Emu’s Pink Windmill!

  11. Ah that’s me told then.

    Kinda OT, but my reading list has been all Hitler and WW2 recently (oh, it’s been a right big barrel of laughs), and I found out a bit more about Ernst Rohm (the SA top dog, who got slotted by the Himmler faction during the night of the long knives) and his pals.

    All of em gay as a bag of rainbows. Rohm was totally ‘out’, he didn’t give a shit about what people thought — and Hitler did know and didn’t give a toss either.

    Interesting thing was that back then the stereotypes of gay men were the opposite of what they are today (ie, mincing and effeminate). In them days it was about manly men being manly with other men – rugged, bearded outdoors types, etc. The ancient greeks were used as the reference.

  12. Also –if you have to stand in the cold to have a cig I see no grounds for whining “discrimination” about what you can do in a restaurant.

  13. The Ancient Greeks were quite approving of adult male on teenage boy stuff but most disapproving of adult male on adult male
    I thought the ancient Greeks were cool with gayism & male couples would go into battle tied together bicep to bicep (left arm to right arm of course). So they fought/died as one.

  14. Dan: Look up some of Tom of Finland’s drawings, he was big on Nazi imagery.

    Jeremy: Those were Thebans. The Ancient Greeks weren’t entirely culturally homogeneous.

  15. Mr Ecks – it is ironical that we’ve legalised gay sex for 16 year olds, but they’re not allowed to buy a post-coital fag.

  16. “F&B is a family restaurant and any sort of duo engaging in tonsil tennis there should have been told to stop.”

    The restaurant’s line is exactly that. The problem wasn’t that two ladies were kissing, it was that they were making a big show of it. Hetro’s doing the same would have been, and are, dealt with in the same way.

    But there’s no Guardian column in that, is there.

  17. The Thought Gang – sure, it wasn’t a Frankie & Bennies in this case, not that it makes any difference.

    I agree hetero tongue sandwiches would be equally unwelcome in a family restaurant. But Bindel has a point – lesbo kissing is not seen as normal or family-friendly by most people. Because it isn’t.

    Doesn’t mean to say we should be horrible to dykes, because we shouldn’t. But Julie would like us to believe lesbian relationships are just as normal, and just as familial, as an old married couple.

    Sorry love, but it ain’t so.

    Equally, I have no problem with people who enjoy the BDSM lifestyle, but I’d be mildly annoyed if the couple seated next to me in a Pizza Hut were wearing leather hoods, a collar and leash.

  18. lesbo kissing is not seen as normal or family-friendly by most people. Because it isn’t.

    Based on what, Steve?

    lesbian relationships are just as normal, and just as familial, as an old married couple.

    That’s because they are. We have lots of cases of lesbian couples successfully raising families. What reasons do you have for not considering them a full part of the rich spectrum of human relationships?

  19. Matthew L – “based on what”

    Based on what, what, Matthew?

    If you are asking if it’s seen as normal and familial, it’s not. Not by most plebs like me, at any rate.

    If you’re asking why it isn’t normal or familial, it’s because we’re sexually dimorphic mammals, and two chubby girls with sideburns scissoring each other is an evolutionary dead end.

    We have lots of cases of lesbian couples successfully raising families.

    Do we? I don’t know if this is true. I’ve never met any lesbian couples raising a family, but from what limited info I do have, seems like a whole lot of kids in their care end up lesbians themselves. Or transexuals.

    Doesn’t seem healthy to me.

    I strongly suspect that it’s a bad idea to entrust children to a pair of lesbians, though possibly less bad than them being in care.

    What reasons do you have for not considering them a full part of the rich spectrum of human relationships?

    Never said they weren’t. So are guys who like wearing gimp masks, trannies, furries, polyamorists, and people from Norfolk.

    They aren’t normal though.

  20. @Matt L
    Thanks for the tip – I just googled Thebes & found Plutarch giving the rationale:
    For men of the same tribe or family little value one another when dangers press; but a band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another.

    Apparently the Theban gays formed a Sacred Band, I guess a regiment, which at Leuctra beat the crap out of a Spartan army that outnumbered them 3 to 1.

  21. If you are asking if it’s seen as normal and familial, it’s not. Not by most plebs like me, at any rate.

    How can you speak for “most” of society? I get that you, personally, are an irredeemable bigot (or some sort of parody thereof) but I think a casual glance around society will show that most of us post-Enlightenment Westerners are actually fine with gay couples.

    two chubby girls with sideburns scissoring each other is an evolutionary dead end.

    And yet they exist. Either evolution is wrong or something is wrong with your assumption.

    seems like a whole lot of kids in their care end up lesbians themselves

    Bollocks. There’s no evidence for that at all. On the other hand, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12361102 says “Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes.”

    They aren’t normal though.

    By that definition, neither are you. Back in the real world, gay and lesbian people are an entirely normal part of modern society, and people like you are rapidly receding into marginalisation.

  22. Matthew L – How can you speak for “most” of society?

    Because I live in it.

    I get that you, personally, are an irredeemable bigot (or some sort of parody thereof)

    Miaow!

    but I think a casual glance around society will show that most of us post-Enlightenment Westerners are actually fine with gay couples.

    Not sure where I’ve gone wrong explainifying myself. I’ll try again:

    I am fine with gay couples. I honestly don’t care which holes or protruberances consenting adults prefer to do sex with.

    Bollocks. There’s no evidence for that at all.

    Seems like there is. Seems like whenever lesbians with kids pop up in the press, the kids are either lesbian or transsexual. Like this poor little boy:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

    On the other hand, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12361102

    The Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, eh?

    Aye, OK. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    By that definition, neither are you.

    I’ve never claimed to be normal.

    Back in the real world, gay and lesbian people are an entirely normal part of modern society, and people like you are rapidly receding into marginalisation.

    O RLY? How many kids do you have, Matthew?

  23. Sorry, meant to say:

    And yet they exist. Either evolution is wrong or something is wrong with your assumption.

    People with six toes and bearded ladies exist too. That’s not normal either.

  24. A Daily Mail anecdote trumps a peer reviewed study? OK then, clearly you’re on the side of reason and rationality.

  25. Matthew – I thought you might say that.

    I’m gonna go with actual anecdotal evidence in the press over the Scandinavian Journal of Psychology on this one though. Because I know how much the soft sciences in general and the Scandies in particular love themselves some politically correct fuckery disguised as research.

    I checked a picture of me and my kids and my pregnant wife and thankfully there’s no sign of me fading away, Marty McFly style, just yet.

    Sorry mate, I’m not rapidly receding into marginalisation. 🙂

  26. “two chubby girls with sideburns scissoring each other is an evolutionary dead end.”

    I’m sorry, but you’d have to have zero sense of humour not to find this sentence funny.

  27. Steve: In case your reading comprehension is a bit wonky, the study I cited is in fact a review of studies from the 70s to the 2000s, and in none of the studies they looked at (in all sorts of different journals) was there any difference in outcomes for the children of same-sex couples. So no, your “but I read in the newspaper once” anecdote doesn’t really hold water compared to actual research.

  28. Matthew – sorry buddy. I don’t think surveys done by psychologists hold much water compared with real world observations. Especially since I bet they didn’t regard higher incidences of lesbianism or trannyism among kids as “adverse outcomes”.

    If you’ve read the report and can demonstrate otherwise, feel free to correct me.

    But I didn’t really want to get into a debate with you over an academic paper neither of us have read.

    I note you’ve backed off your other claims, so can we skip to the part where we agree that I’m right?

  29. “I bet they didn’t regard higher incidences of lesbianism or trannyism among kids as “adverse outcomes”.”

    From the abstract:

    “Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning”

    I’m not convinced you can read the paper if you can’t even read the abstract.

    “I don’t think surveys done by psychologists hold much water compared with real world observations”

    They are real world observations, you muppet. The people doing the studies (none of whom were Scandinavian – most of the studies were from North America) observed children of same-sex couples in the real world. The difference between that and the Daily Mail is that their sample size is greater than one.

    “I note you’ve backed off your other claims”

    Your response was ludicrous. I’ve made my point, I don’t need to belabour it.

  30. Matthew – Ah, good spot.

    So you didn’t read the paper then. Just a couple of paragraphs in the summary. I see.

    No chance the data could have been as tortured as that used by other “social scientists” to big up “rape culture” or their other hobby horses then. 🙂

    Back in the real world, here’s another lesbian family success story!

    http://theothermccain.com/2014/10/28/another-feminist-success-story/

    The son became a lady boy. I mean, what are the odds?

    Anyway why the Steve-hate? I haven’t called you any names.

    I find your Steveophobia to be racist and anti-fatherist.

  31. “people like you are rapidly receding into marginalisation.”

    Most people in this country still believe in tolerance. Tolerance is however not approval or endorsement. If people have minority sexual habits that involve volunteers only that is their business. Don’t delude yourself that means lots of people think said activities are just peachy.There is no right not to be disliked. More and more people are afraid to speak their minds under threat of state oppression. But don’t come peddling that as something good because it runs in a direction you happen to like.

  32. what are the odds?

    The same as for children of hetero couples. It’s a very simple concept, within even your grasp.

    Most people in this country still believe in tolerance

    That’s fine. Tolerance is a good start. Everyone’s free to hold their own opinions on the subject. Comment is free after all. As Tim keeps reminding us though, facts are sacred – and “seems like a whole lot of kids in their care end up lesbians themselves. Or transexuals.” is blatantly untrue.

    Don’t delude yourself that means lots of people think said activities are just peachy.

    Well that’s what I mean – more and more people think they *are* just peachy. The demographic that thinks otherwise is shrinking.

  33. Mr Ecks – wise words.

    I’d like to reiterate that I don’t dislike lesbians. For serious – if I disliked them I’d say so.

    It seems we’ve segued from “don’t be horrible to gays”, which I fully agree with as it happens, to “ZOMG! YOU DON’T THINK TWO LEZZERS LEZZING IT UP ARE JUST AS NORMAL AS A TRADITIONAL MARRIED COUPLE?!?! YOU ARE A MUPPET AND A BIGOT AND A BASTARD-PERSON! FADE INTO HISTORY!!!”

    Tolerance indeed.

    What’s wrong with saying something isn’t normal? Only about 1% or 2% of the population are lesbians. “Not normal” is descriptive.

    Or saying it’s not “familial”. Well, two ladies can’t have babies without the intervention of a man and possibly Mr Turkey Baster, so clearly lesbian “families” are not as familial as normal ones.

  34. Matthew – “The same as for children of hetero couples. It’s a very simple concept, within even your grasp.”

    Nah.

    For, you see, lesbians are a vanishingly small percentage of the population. Lesbians with children even smaller.

    So we should take notice when the kids in their care appear to win the not-normal lottery and grow up to be sexually aberant. And if you pay attention, it seems to happen a lot with kids raised by lesbians.

    And even if they manage to escape the sapphic nest without wanting to cut their own nuts off, being in a fatherless environment is terrible for boys. Boys need fathers. It’s what we’re here for.

    more and more people think they *are* just peachy. The demographic that thinks otherwise is shrinking.

    Dunno about that, buddy. I’d guess the opposite. The demographic of my household certainly isn’t shrinking.

    How about yours?

  35. “don’t be horrible to gays”, which I fully agree with as it happens

    Attempting to prevent them having families and being allowed to go on dates in restaurants just like hetero couples *is* being horrible to them. Try some of this tolerance you claim to support – if you don’t like lesbians kissing, simply don’t kiss any.

    Only about 1% or 2% of the population are lesbians. “Not normal” is descriptive.

    Not common would be descriptive. Not normal is pejorative. It’s also a stupid concept – what does the frequency of a type of person have to do with their rights?

    ”. Well, two ladies can’t have babies without the intervention of a man and possibly Mr Turkey Baster, so clearly lesbian “families” are not as familial as normal ones.

    So the mode of conception is the only determinant of whether a family is valid? That’s an… interesting… theory.

  36. And if you pay attention, it seems to happen a lot with kids raised by lesbians.

    And if you paid attention to *actual, real-world data* instead of your confirmation bias, you would notice that that *isn’t actually true*. The rate of transgender children is the same for children raised by hetero couples and same-sex couples.

    I’d guess the opposite.

    And you’d be wrong, judging by the opinion polls.

    The demographic of my household certainly isn’t shrinking.

    How’s that for solipsism.

  37. Matthew – Attempting to prevent them having families

    I’m not trying to get between lesbians and their turkey basters filled with piping hot man-muck.

    and being allowed to go on dates in restaurants

    Not up to me, that’s up to the restaurant. Do you think fetish wear should be allowed in Burger King too, by the way?

    Not normal is pejorative.

    No – “big fat smelly mingerakers” is pejorative. “Not normal” is merely descriptive. You’re being hypersensitive.

    Lots of people aren’t normal. It’s fine.

    It’s also a stupid concept – what does the frequency of a type of person have to do with their rights?

    Never said it did. I fully support the idea that lesbians have rights.

    So the mode of conception is the only determinant of whether a family is valid?

    Put it this way: if you have to buy two Mothers Day cards, if the story of your conception began with somebody rinsing out the Oxo from a kitchen implement, and if you think Sandi Toksvig looks like a maternal figure, then your family likely isn’t normal.

  38. Do I think people should be prevented from wearing what clothes they want to wear? No, I don’t. Do I think the government should force places to enforce a central state dress code? No, absolutely not.

    “your family likely isn’t normal.”

    No families are normal by your definition. They all differ in some way or another. That’s not a bad thing.

  39. Matthew – And if you paid attention to *actual, real-world data* instead of your confirmation bias, you would notice that that *isn’t actually true*. The rate of transgender children is the same for children raised by hetero couples and same-sex couples.

    Sure, if we believe that study neither of us have read. I’m mentally filing it along with “global warming”.

    How’s that for solipsism.

    Just reality.

    You said I was being marginalised and fading away. But the future belongs to those who show up.

    Seems like you don’t have children. If so, guess which of us has more influence on the next generation?

    Not you, my friend.

  40. Actually my wife wants a large family so I suspect I’ll end up with more kids than you, not that it matters.

    “You said I was being marginalised and fading away”

    Yup. I think if you jump forward 20 years you’ll find that your kids are as pro-gay as I am, and that society has not followed your preferred path on that subject.

    “Sure, if we believe that study neither of us have read.”

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9450.00302/pdf

    There you go – now you can read it too. Try not to be confused by all the big words.

  41. Mr Ecks

    “Tolerance is however not approval or endorsement”

    Alas, I fear that’s a bit old fashioned and imperialist/hating/fascist (take your pick). I think you will find the current consensus amongst our betters is that Tolerance is and can only ever be Acceptance and Support.

    As an illustration, consider the chances of anyone in public life saying something like “of course they are perverts but what they get up robin their private life is their affair”.

  42. Mr Ecks

    “Tolerance is however not approval or endorsement”

    Alas, I fear that’s a bit old fashioned and imperialist/hating/fascist (take your pick). I think you will find the current consensus amongst our betters is that Tolerance is and can only ever be Acceptance and Support.

    As an illustration, consider the chances of anyone in public life saying something like “of course they are perverts but what they get up to in their private life is their affair”.

  43. Matthew – “If you gave up on normality as a useful concept, you might have better sex for a start.”

    You stick with your pegging, or whatever, and I’ll stick to doing sex to women the old fashioned way. 🙂

  44. Matthew – I dunno. We’re pretty adventurous…

    Sometimes we do it in the afternoon.

    Been reading your man Dan Savage:

    they say the missionary position, vaginal intercourse and husband and wife, with the intention of making a baby. How rare is that? That’s freaky shit right there. That is not normal.

    No wonder birth rates in the West are in freefall, if people believe this stuff. We’ll be replaced by other, more fecund cultures.

    It’s why we need comprehensive, responsible, kink-inclusive, queer-inclusive sex education for all kids.

    God invented fathers to keep the Savages and their kinky “education” away from our kids.

    So we have to say to boys and girls what the right-wing fundamentalist fucktards won’t say, which is that other kinds of sex are normal and at your ages it might be better to masturbate together.

    Yep. Definitely wouldn’t let this chap near my boys.

    I have a complicated relationship with bestiality.

    Wow. Just, wow.

  45. Sex-education should be in the hands of parents. It is an unpleasant thought that there are any parents who would let any Dan Savage (surely not his real name) acolytes near their kids but freedom has a price.

  46. #IAgreeWithMatthew

    But anyone who regards lesbian relationships as lesser than straight ones, or thinks they are not ‘normal’, has the right to that opinion. We think what we think and, outside of places like this, people are increasingly disinclined to mention when they don’t think what the orthodoxy demands.

    I find it odd though. Why give a fuck at all? Once you’ve accepted that all this carnal nonsense runs on a spectrum, why not just be happy that people get their kicks in different ways. There are legal and cultural standards around aspects of relationships (more than there should be, but that’s another issue) and that’s fair enough, but I can’t fathom why they should differ between straight/gay/whatever.

    If you take your cues from a sky fairy who thinks that everything other than hetro sex for the purpose of conception within a fairy-blessed union then I respect the logic of not being down with the vagetarians.. either in public or in private.. but when the cues come from a sentient human brain, what gives?

  47. “I think if you jump forward 20 years you’ll find that your kids are as pro-gay as I am, and that society has not followed your preferred path on that subject.”

    You think we’re going to chuck out all the Muslims then?

    If things carry on the way they are at the moment its highly likely in 20 years time that there will be officially sanctioned sharia law areas in all major towns and cities that gays will be barred from.

    Its not so much what Steve’s kids think about gays that is going to matter in 20 years time. Its what Abdul from Kabul, and Imran from Lahore think about them that will be more important to the UK’s overall gay-friendliness factor.

  48. I got as far as “I want us to demand respect and acceptance.” and stopped. I am not going to read any more.
    Respect has to be earned.
    A Mafia boss may demand “respect” but that is not respect in the correct meaningof the English word.
    Guys in my generation were able to stand up to playground bullies (at the cost of some pain) which is why virtually none of them turned out like Ms Bindel. Female bullying was officially believed not to exist (just as no-one was willing to tell Victoria that Lesbians existed), so the nastiest bullies were exempt from retribution and we get Ms Bindel.

  49. Mr Ecks – Yarp. Mr Savage’s agenda for kids is rather creepy.”Sex education” has no place in schools. We did fine in the days before it. Supposedly it was brought in to curb teen pregnancy. Well, how’s that working out for us?

    The Thought Gang – Why give a fuck at all?

    My own take on this is:

    a) I don’t give a fig about lesbianism – that’s their business, and
    b) as a pendant, when someone tells me two plus two equals five, I’m inclined to reply “bollocks!”

    The article Tim linked to had Julie Bindel complaining that people don’t see lesbianism as “normal” or “familial”. I agree with her – it’s neither of those things.

    And most people don’t see it as either of those things. We tolerate lesbians, may even like them or respect them or admire them on a personal level, but most of us would be sad if we had a daughter who turned out to be a lesbian. Because deep down we know there is such a thing as normal.

    Matthew obviously disagrees, hence our lengthy back-and-forth in which he expressed his belief that I’m a bigot and – worse – unfashionable.

    I honestly have no idea why our society spends so much time and effort talking about the 2% of people who like bum fun or muff diving, rather than just letting them get on with their lives and be as happy as they can.

    I have no idea why celebrating said bum fun and muff diving is now a mark of secular piety, the closest thing the proggies have to the Nicene Creed.

    Or why the even smaller percentage of people who are trannies are all of a sudden an urgent cause of great import to which we must all now pay obeisance:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779750/Parents-fury-primary-school-introduces-gender-neutral-toilets-prevent-transphobia.html

    I do know that if someone tells me water isn’t wet, or that the earth is flat, or that I’d better start believing six impossible things before breakfast, else I’m a bigot, my inclination is to be all contrary-like and tell em to piss off.

    I can’t help it, you see, because I’m not normal myself. I’m a pendant and proud.

  50. So Much for Subtlety

    Matthew L – “That’s fine. Tolerance is a good start. Everyone’s free to hold their own opinions on the subject. Comment is free after all.”

    The problem is that your side does not mean it. Your side of this argument is getting people thrown out of their jobs. Not even for expressing an opinion but merely for donating money. Trying to get people thrown into prison. Destroying lives.

    “As Tim keeps reminding us though, facts are sacred – and “seems like a whole lot of kids in their care end up lesbians themselves. Or transexuals.” is blatantly untrue.”

    Actually it isn’t. I am not sure whether it matters but the children of various gay couples have a variety of social problems and being more commonly Gay is more common. Now of course you will dispute the evidence. You have disputed the evidence. Just as your side has tried to shut down and fire anyone who discusses the evidence. Ahh, tolerance. It was nice.

    Matthew L – “Attempting to prevent them having families”

    Sorry but no. No one is attempting to prevent anything. Gays cannot have families. What we have activists making the State go to great lengths to pretend otherwise.

    “Not common would be descriptive. Not normal is pejorative. It’s also a stupid concept – what does the frequency of a type of person have to do with their rights?”

    If enough people eat their dead parents, it is normal. We may think it is odd, but if everyone does it, not doing it is a sign of maladjustment. Not normal is not pejorative. It is just part of the Gay mafia’s war on the English language and common sense. If we all agree to ban not-normal, they will attempt to ban not-common next.

    “So the mode of conception is the only determinant of whether a family is valid? That’s an… interesting… theory.”

    Cute.

    Matthew L – “And if you paid attention to *actual, real-world data* instead of your confirmation bias, you would notice that that *isn’t actually true*. The rate of transgender children is the same for children raised by hetero couples and same-sex couples.”

    Your data. After your friends have done a climate model on it. Actually there is data that shows the children of Gay parents are more commonly f**ked up. We have discussed it before. You reject that reality too.

  51. So Much for Subtlety

    The Thought Gang – “I find it odd though. Why give a fuck at all? Once you’ve accepted that all this carnal nonsense runs on a spectrum, why not just be happy that people get their kicks in different ways.”

    I was reading, as you do, a book on mediaeval Egyptian apprenticeships and it said in passing, that it was normal for the Masters to sodomise their apprentices. It occurred to me at that point that I don’t want to live in a society where anal sex with young boys in positions of dependency is routine. Hey, call me old fashioned. We do not have a lot of homosexual rape in prison because it is not normal. Most cons would be too ashamed. We do not have a lot of homosexual rape in the Army for the same reason.

    I like living in a society like that. And I would not like to live in one where anything else was normal.

    Not to mention, of course, the massive social costs of an intrinsically disordered family life. As we can see in Harlem.

  52. Jim – “Its not so much what Steve’s kids think about gays that is going to matter in 20 years time. Its what Abdul from Kabul, and Imran from Lahore think about them that will be more important to the UK’s overall gay-friendliness factor.”

    This is true, and, while I’m doing my best here, as I keep telling Mrs Steve – I am not a sex machine. It just seems that way.

    Somebody’s going to have to help me carry the baby-making load, before I end up having to permanently relocate to the shed due to no room in the house. And there are spiders in that shed. I HATE spiders.

    Mr Savage in his Playboy interview boasted:

    they say the missionary position, vaginal intercourse and husband and wife, with the intention of making a baby. How rare is that? That’s freaky shit right there. That is not normal

    This is basically a “how-to” manual for ensuring we’re displaced by the multitudinous descendants of people who aren’t afraid of good old fashioned normal red-hot marital sex.

    We either get busy living, or get busy dying.

    It’s time to stop fapping and get fucking. For England and St. George!

  53. “I honestly have no idea why our society spends so much time and effort talking about the 2% of people who like bum fun or muff diving, rather than just letting them get on with their lives and be as happy as they can.”

    Two reasons. The first is that people who like those things have been persecuted and discriminated against on account of it. They’re, understandably, keen to avoid that sort of thing.

    The second is that there’s money in it.. and/or whatever the hell else awful people like Bindel get out of the gig.

    Remember, you’re the one determined to labour the point that there’s something to talk about. The ‘who gives a fuck’ approach is more likely to hasten the end of the ‘debate’.

    ” but most of us would be sad if we had a daughter who turned out to be a lesbian. Because deep down we know there is such a thing as normal.”

    Citation please. I think that’s a (literally) dying attitude in the developed/Western world. Don’t most parents want their kids to be happy? If non-hetro relationships achieve that, then doesn’t that override matters somewhat? Otherwise it’s kinda selfish, no?

    @SMFS
    You’re equating rape (of children?) in uneven power relationships with what consenting adults do with their genitals. I’m not sure that adds much.

  54. So Much for Subtlety

    The Thought Gang – “Two reasons. The first is that people who like those things have been persecuted and discriminated against on account of it. They’re, understandably, keen to avoid that sort of thing.”

    I doubt that many people alive today have ever been persecuted or even discriminated against on account of it. Even when it was illegal, we all generally agreed to ignore it unless forced to do otherwise. Wilde would not have gone to prison – and was not keeping his sexuality a deep secret – if he had not sued. Alan Turing would not have got in trouble if he did not file a police complaint against his rent boy.

    Also of course it is nonsense. The Gay lobby is utterly delighted about discrimination and persecution. When they do it. And they are doing it. They are driving people out of their jobs. They are trying to get people jailed. They are not keen to avoid it. They are keen to hand it out.

    “Remember, you’re the one determined to labour the point that there’s something to talk about. The ‘who gives a fuck’ approach is more likely to hasten the end of the ‘debate’.”

    No it isn’t. You give in to bullies and they just move on to the next set of demands. Their motto these days is that tolerance is not enough. That is why they openly say they want to have “sex ed” classes for pre-teens. Where is the end of the debate? I hate to think.

    “I think that’s a (literally) dying attitude in the developed/Western world.”

    I don’t think it is. Everyone has seen the After School Disney TV Specials but in the end, there is probably a limit to the tolerance of most of society for the Gay lobby.

    “Don’t most parents want their kids to be happy? If non-hetro relationships achieve that, then doesn’t that override matters somewhat? Otherwise it’s kinda selfish, no?”

    If. Such a little world. Well. Have you ever met a happy lesbian? Seriously. When was the last time you saw a happy, laughing lesbian? Bindel, a bundle of laughs is she?

    “You’re equating rape (of children?) in uneven power relationships with what consenting adults do with their genitals. I’m not sure that adds much.”

    No I am not. We view teachers raping young girls differently from raping young boys, and male teachers differently from female teachers. Because while they are not the same as adult consentual acts, our views are shaped by how we view adult consenting acts. We do not view a female teacher having sex with a boy in the same way we view a male teacher having sex with a girl – and not the same as we view a male teacher having sex with a boy. Maybe we should. I don’t think so. We deem some of those more normal than others.

  55. Steve and Matthew L.:
    Thanks for the entertaining exchange but, Jesus Christ, what a pair of fucked up cunts you both are – as mad as So Much for Stupidity.

  56. Steve,
    As (I believe) the first person to request that you write more, much more, it’s good to have you back.
    Right load of old bollocks today though …. SMFS might think he’s found a friend the old pervert.

  57. So Much for Subtlety

    Hi Jack! Can’t keep your different sock puppets/alternative personalities separate today? Tragic really.

    As is your continued lack of anything intelligent or even coherent to say. So you don’t like what I have to say? Cry me a freakin’ river. A shame you lack of nous to explain precisely why.

    But hey, four letter words are a substitute for intelligence, right?

  58. I seem to meet an awful lot of people, but none of them seem to be representatives of the ravening Gay Lobby. May be it isn’t as SMFS fears, and it’s just a few single-issue tossers earning a crust (like Murphy).

    Throw down your string-vest SMFS, open your bedsit door and let the world in.

  59. Peter S – that’s not fair. I’m a much bigger cunt than Matthew is. 🙂

    Jack C – thanks mate. This is one of the reasons why I leave blogging to chaps who are good at it like Tim, I tend to go on a bit like that fight scene in They Live. (Also, I’m never sure when my tongue-in-cheekishness is just coming over as cuntishness). I think Matthew’s got a similar temperament to myself: somebody is WRONG on the internet – to the blogmobile!

  60. So Much for Subtlety

    Jack C – “I seem to meet an awful lot of people, but none of them seem to be representatives of the ravening Gay Lobby.”

    That may be true. You may know very few people. You may have a narrow social circle. Or they may be a tiny minority.

    Does it matter? I doubt it.

    What matters is that they are winning. And normal people are having their lives destroyed for nothing much – holding an opinion that roughly 95% of the population holds.

    Believe it or not, this is not about you.

  61. SMFS – “You give in to bullies and they just move on to the next set of demands.”

    Case in point – the new progressive hotness is fighting “transphobia”:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779750/Parents-fury-primary-school-introduces-gender-neutral-toilets-prevent-transphobia.html

    (Yes… Daily Mail, booo! But this isn’t just a one-off freak story.)

    It doesn’t seem to matter how tolerant we are, because the proggies just keep inventing new ways to mess with us and our kids. Unless you’re willing to accept every new demand, instantly and without reservation, they’ll find some reason to monster you as a horrible bigot.

    Like the gay marriage thing. Ten years ago you were a kind and decent progressive if you thought gays should have civil partnerships. Now, you’re a bigot and a muppet if you think gays should have civil partnerships.

    It’s all a bit cultural revolutiony for my tastes.

    God knows who they’ll move on to next if they successfully mainstream transsexuals as an Official Victim group who must never be criticised… chicken fuckers, maybe.

    I’m a live and let live sort of guy. But let’s keep gender madness out of primary schools, and leave Clucky alone.

  62. The left have taken gays on as their clients. I doubt that gays asked them to but that does not matter. Indeed it is bitter irony considering the numerous homosexuals persecuted and indeed executed in various socialist shitholes around the world. Now–as with race and Islamism and the femmi-fanned supposed paedo-guilt of various old men, if you do not hold the opinion middle-class Marxism says that you should hold you are defying their orders and threatening their control attempts. And they will use their control of the media to attack you in every possible way. That is why more and more of these topics fill the media. The scum of the left want you told what you can and can’t believe. They couldn’t, by and large, give a shit about the groups they are using and would discard or turn on any of them if that seemed a more viable route to the power socialism seeks.

    Extra heat is of course provided by the personal issues of wierdos like the Bindels and the Laurie Pennys etc–but their problems with Mummy and Daddy–or whoever–are just a sideshow.

  63. Steve, this is a t-shirt, not a comment:

    I think Matthew’s got a similar temperament to myself: somebody is WRONG on the internet – to the blogmobile!

  64. “Unless you’re willing to accept every new demand, instantly and without reservation, they’ll find some reason to monster you as a horrible bigot.”

    Steve, are you a man or a mouse?

    So, go back 25/30 years, and imagine yourself as a young gay man, or a young Pakistani wife. Gay-bashing and Paki-bashing were real, and general low-level hostility was rife. Ever been spat at when walking your kids to school? Maybe a brick through the window?

    Certainly, the affected people could have been in far worse places, and the British are tolerant on the whole. However, anyone over 40 will have made an absolute hatful of casually racist or sexist remarks in their younger days. Of course, we didn’t mean anything by it, blah blah.

    So roll on to 2014. Things are pretty good. Comparatively,we are better off than almost all humans ever. Not only does my car start in the winter, it’s a rented Mustang and the company pays for it. Etc.

    But there’s a pimple on the arse of paradise. Some mysterious “them” is making constant demands of me, and I have to bend over and take it every time they do. No one ever has had to suffer like this, and I want my Nanny.

    Now, I can’t actually remember the last such demand, or whether it actually affected me in any way whatsoever, but hey, the oppression is real.

    Steve, get over it poofter.

  65. And can we knock this “normal” bollocks on the head?

    Homosexuals are:

    a) A sub-set of humanity (and other species) that have been present in all human populations throughout history. “Normal”.
    b) Are people who find certain other people attractive and want to have sex with them. “Normal”.
    c) Are people who feel humiliated or even threatened when picked on and mocked in public. “Normal”.

    Of course, there aren’t many of them in comparison to heteros, so “Unusual” also. Like being an Italian Rugby fan, or a Fijian anything.

  66. Jack C: “Roll on 2014. Things are pretty good”

    Maybe for you numpty but not for those of us who want our own opinions–regardless of the opinions of what arrogant twats think is “acceptable”. So-called sexism and racism are also “normal” and indeed a lot more prevalent than the incidence of homosexuality. People don’t have the right to physically attack others but dislike is not attack and speaking freely about how they feel is not attack either. Your bad breath doesn’t seem to be bottled up by reason of any regard for the feelings of others. Nor should it be.

    So go bust the pimple on your arse by running your rented Mustang over it.

  67. Jack C – Steve, are you a man or a mouse?

    Wouldn’t it be great if I was a mouse, who had escaped a lab somewhere and was running across a keyboard to type stuff on the internet?

    go back 25/30 years, and imagine yourself as a young gay man, or a young Pakistani wife. Gay-bashing and Paki-bashing were real, and general low-level hostility was rife. Ever been spat at when walking your kids to school? Maybe a brick through the window?

    Not exactly those things, no. But close enough things happened during my boyhood.

    However, anyone over 40 will have made an absolute hatful of casually racist or sexist remarks in their younger days. Of course, we didn’t mean anything by it, blah blah.

    There used to be a saying: “it’s a free country”. I haven’t heard it in a while.

    So roll on to 2014. Things are pretty good. Comparatively,we are better off than almost all humans ever. Not only does my car start in the winter, it’s a rented Mustang and the company pays for it. Etc.

    Yes, we have a lot to be thankful for.

    But there’s a pimple on the arse of paradise. Some mysterious “them” is making constant demands of me, and I have to bend over and take it every time they do.

    Mysterious? Like fuck they are. I’ll name some of “them”:

    * The cunts trying to import Scandinavian-style gender madness to our schools:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779750/Parents-fury-primary-school-introduces-gender-neutral-toilets-prevent-transphobia.html

    * The cunts who want to drive white men out of our judiciary:

    http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/06/judge-quota-system-recommended-to-labour-party

    * The cunts who want to put a limit on men serving on boards of directors:

    http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/e06ac8bc-784a-11e3-831c-00144feabdc0.html

    * The cunts who want to ban e-cigarettes:

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28937610

    * The cunts trying to demonise young men at university:

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/21/nus-summit–lad-culture-live-blog

    * The cunts who banned spanking porn:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-porn-laws-banning-erotic-acts-should-be-annulled-lib-dem-mp-says-9920040.html

    These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Everywhere we look around us, freedom is on the retreat. It’s death by a thousand little cuts, most of them petty in and of themselves, but the cumulative effect is such that we no longer boast of being a “free country”. Because we can’t.

    No one ever has had to suffer like this, and I want my Nanny.

    Steve, get over it poofter.

    Troll softer next time.

  68. Who’s stopping you having your own opinions Mr Ecks?

    Name names! What would you like to say that you feel you can’t?

    Now, I’d like to poke tedious cliche merchants with a stick (ZanuLiebore, really??), but the law says I pretty much can’t. Sadly, I can’t argue you that that’s oppression.

    Btw, “racism” maybe be regrettably normal, but it’s also pretty weird; think about it logically for a moment.

  69. Jack C – I wrote you a reply earlier but it was eaten by the filter – maybe it’ll appear later.

    Anyway, just saw this story and it made me think about your argument that everything is wonderful and only nasty old sexists and racists have any misgivings about the direction our society is headed:

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/fury-pensioner-locked-up-charged-4797149

    Fury as pensioner is locked up and charged with a hate crime after using the word ‘tinks’ while in his own garden

    IAN MacGregor had never been in trouble with the law before but 71-year-old was hauled into court after his neighbours overheard his comment.

    A PENSIONER was taken from his home, locked in a police cell overnight and charged with a “hate crime” after he was overheard using the word “tinks” in his own garden.

    Retired Ian MacGregor, who has never been in trouble before and has no criminal record, was left visibly shaken after he was forced to appear in court on his 71st birthday.

    The treatment of the pensioner, who was not reported to the police until two days after the comment was made, has been condemned as totally disproportionate by politicians.

    MacGregor – who described the prosecution as a “piece of nonsense” – admitted saying “that’s the tinks got the shed up” and was admonished at Perth Sheriff Court.

    The court was told he was taken from his home by police officers after neighbour Kelly Byrne – who was fined £100 after breaking a tagging order to appear on the Trisha TV show in 2006 – reported the comment.

    Kelly Byrne and her partner Sandy McDonald, who also has a number of convictions, claimed they were offended by the comment because they believed it referred to them. However, they only reported it two days later.

    Mid-Scotland and Fife Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser branded the police decision to lock up the shocked pensioner as heavy handed and unnecessary.

    He said: “You have to ask the question whether the police response was proportionate in all the circumstances of the case?

    “To take an elderly gentleman out of his own home and make him spend a night in police cells does not appear to be in line with the nature of the offence he was accused of committing.

    “Perhaps in future the police and prosecutors need to consider the circumstances more carefully before they rush into taking such severe action. To make this poor man spend a night in police cells is completely out of proportion.”

    Mr MacGregor, from Kenmore, Perthshire, admitted making comments of a racial nature towards Ms Byrne and Mr McDonald on December 8.

    Fiscal depute Tina Dickie said: “The incident happened in the back gardens. Mr McDonald describes himself as a man of the travelling community.

    “They were in the garden erecting a shed. The accused exited the rear door of his property and entered his own shed. As he exited the shed he said in a loud voice ‘that’s the tinks got the shed up’.

  70. Not sure I said everything was wonderful Steve.

    Anyway, yes, this one story of Police twattery proves absolutely that Everything Is Appalling.

    There’s a lot of girlish blubbing on this site recently.

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