So Ms. De Piero

The debate has another resonance for de Piero, who as a teenager did some glamour modelling with a friend. “It was so bloody long ago, it’s sort of like you’re talking about a different life. A totally different life.” She was 15, a mate suggested it as a quick way of earning extra cash, and de Piero wanted new clothes that she otherwise couldn’t afford. Her parents, on finding out, were disappointed. “But, you know, I was a teenage girl, do you know what I mean?” A rebel, then. “I was naughty.” She hoots.

The campaigning against Page 3 is a tad odd then. Unless the misanthropes are actually correct, in that it’s all about those who used to have it trying to make sure that those who still do don’t advertise the fact.

45 thoughts on “So Ms. De Piero”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    “It was so bloody long ago, it’s sort of like you’re talking about a different life. A totally different life.”

    Sure it was. Operation Yewtree would come for anyone who bought, downloaded or otherwise looked at those pictures today.

    Has anyone asked her if she thinks her friend ought to be doing 15 to life for abetting the production of child porn?

    Unless the misanthropes are actually correct, in that it’s all about those who used to have it trying to make sure that those who still do don’t advertise the fact.

    Not aging well is she? This is just Sailor’s law at work – every reform proposed by a feminist means re-arranging society so that said feminist will be thought of as sexually desirable. I suspect it ain’t going to happen.

    University was the all-consuming obsession, and de Piero was marched from library to museum to help her on her way. She got her degree at the University of Westminster

    Yeah. I bet they were disappointed then.

  2. There’s one trait which runs deep and wide through the middle of British politics, and that is a desire of those who are relatively comfortable – both in terms of wealth and social status – to pull the ladder up after them. So many people, and not just politicians, seem to have enjoyed a “carefree” youth but are now determined to ensure future young generations live nice, wholesome middle-aged lives.

    I know parents are hypocrites of the highest order (for good reason) when it comes to setting rules for their children, but I don’t know if this phenomenon of age envy is a new one, at least insofar as it appears to be driving politics.

  3. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Newman – “There’s one trait which runs deep and wide through the middle of British politics, and that is a desire of those who are relatively comfortable – both in terms of wealth and social status – to pull the ladder up after them.”

    I am not sure that appearing as a page three girl was vital in this young lassie’s rise to power. Unless she was sleeping with someone when she got a job on the TV I suppose. It is more likely that she resents not being thought of as sexually attractive any more – while she got a thrill out of it when she was 15.

    “So many people, and not just politicians, seem to have enjoyed a “carefree” youth but are now determined to ensure future young generations live nice, wholesome middle-aged lives.”

    Well yes, but some times people do stupid things as children and they learn. She does not fall into this category, obviously, because she doesn’t regret what she did. But someone like Linda Lovelace who did porn and bitterly regretted it is not a hypocrite. A former porn star that wants to keep their child away from the industry is surely a sensible parent. Otherwise we can never tell our children to learn from our mistakes.

    But again, the strange thing about this woman is that she thinks what she did was fine, but that men shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy *other*women’s* breasts. That is the core of her problem.

  4. I am not sure that appearing as a page three girl was vital in this young lassie’s rise to power.

    It’s not so much that it was a route to power, it’s more the fact that she had the freedom to do such a thing when she was young – and seemingly seems to have no regrets or come to any harm – yet still wants to prevent the next generation doing the same thing. There’s a lot of this about.

  5. A former porn star that wants to keep their child away from the industry is surely a sensible parent. Otherwise we can never tell our children to learn from our mistakes.

    Yes, I’m fine with parents being hypocrites and telling their children not to do what they did. What I am less fine with is adults telling slightly younger adults who they don’t know not to do what they did.

  6. It is worth bearing in mind that people drawn into a movement or ideology (a religion, feminism, fascism, greenism, whatever) do not necessarily have the same motivation as those who invented the ideology or movement. While I am as tempted as anyone else to ascribe to every feminist the motivations that informed the initial developement of the movement, we must remember that many women just get sucked into it at university (or later) and would not necessarily be otherwise prey to the foul jealousies of its originators.

    Feminism- like many of these noxious things- is a taboo system. Humans have an innate capacity to absorb social taboos- I believe there is specific neural wiring- and then they will zealously promote and enforce them. Feminism is now- at least among the ruling class- a hegemonic taboo system. The reason that most of them believe in it is simply that everyone else (at least everyone else decent, in a circular definition) believes in it, so to think otherwise is literally unthinkable.

    Taboos are hard to shift in their adherents, not least because inherent to a taboo is the assumption that even questioning itself is taboo. Some posters in these threads are an example- asking them to justify their belief leads, inevitably, to a response consisting of triumphal refusal to do so.

    Once you’ve decided that female sexuality is taboo, it is circularly maintained by the powerful taboo wiring in every human brain.

  7. Parents tell their kids certain things are wrong because they are harmful. Taking drugs is bad for your health. Getting a tattoo on a visible body part will damage your employment prospects. Not using a condom risks catching the clap.

    But where’s the harm in posing topless for the Sun?

  8. There is no harm, and that’s the irony of all this. It’s literally a fuss about nothing. It’s the same as trying to explain that women don’t need to cover their faces to a raving muzzie.

  9. When they come to make a film about the Battle of Britain’s Boobs, I hope it’s titled after the Douglas Bader biopic.

    Kenneth More is Rupert Murdoch, in: REACH FOR THE TITS

    EXT. DAY. SOMEWHERE SHIT LOOKING. A LEATHERY OLD PROSSIE STANDS OUTSIDE THE LOCKED SHUTTERS OF A CASH CONVERTERS.

    “That’s no prossie!”, thought the Guardian’s girl-reporter, Sophie Elmhirst, as she hastily looked for somewhere to park her Mini Cooper. “That’s Labour MP Gloria del Monte!”

    “I was just, like, surprised. Shocked. Disappointed … I’m pissed off.” A copy of Thursday’s Sun sits in front of Gloria de Piero, the shadow women and equalities minister. On Page 3, next to a story about Manchester United’s mouse infestation (“Gnaw blimey”), is a picture of Nicole, 22, from Bournemouth. She’s winking, topless, and the cause of de Piero’s rainbow of emotions.

    Strange. I saw Nicole, 22, and the only emotion I felt was a patriotic swelling with pride that our country produces such wholesome, boobsome, free spirited young ladies.

    Maybe Gloria de Partyanimal has mental problems, if a picture of a cheeky lass in a tabloid paper can ignite such a “rainbow of emotions”. And that’s a worrying thought. This isn’t some random bint from Mumsnet (Gransnet, by the looks of her) – this particular bint is an MP. She gets to make our laws.

    On Tuesday, the Times ran a story confirming that the decision had been signed off by Rupert Murdoch, and it was assumed to be true, given the Sun and the Times share an owner. The No More Page 3 campaign, run by Lucy-Anne Holmes and a team around the country, began to celebrate.

    Still makes me chuckle. There were lezzie radfems dancing in the streets of Twitter and unaccountably fat vegans toppling statues of Rupert Murdoch on Facebook.

    So did everyone bemused by the continued presence of bare breasts in a popular daily newspaper, which is a lot of people.

    Not nearly as many people as those who think boobs are good or who don’t care.

    She likes talking, de Piero, which must help the canvassing marathons. Since becoming an MP, she’s made a bit of a speciality of conducting national tours, taking the rock star approach to politicking. First there was the “Why do you hate me?” tour, on which she tried to get to grips with deep-set antipathy towards politicians.

    Because of nanny statist crap like this, you dozy cow.

    Then, after her promotion to the shadow cabinet in 2013, there was the “What women want” tour,

    They don’t know what they want, but they’re sure to get it!

    and now she’s kicking off “Woman to woman”

    Ew.

    with deputy leader Harriet Harman,

    Ewwwww.

    a bid to get more women out to vote.

    A bid to get more stupid women to vote Labour.

    “I don’t really like Westminster,” she says. “It depresses me.

    Resign.

    Still, she must be hungry to win: she’s got an election to fight. The message booms: “Yes, obviously, I want a Labour government because I think that would be better for the people of Ashfield. I want to help people, I want to represent people, I want to fight for people.” So why not be a social worker? “Because the Labour party’s in here” – she pats her stomach – “in every little bit of me.

    I know how she feels. I ate undercooked chicken once and my guts were infested with Labour too. Nasty business.

    I look at that front bench … and I just think, ‘How can it be?’” She means the raft of Etonians, Oxbridge graduates, men. Her mission is to open up politics, to make it accessible and comprehensible. She wants more people like her there.

    More middle aged Italian slappers?

    Born in 1972, de Piero grew up in Bradford

    Christ. She’s had a hard paper round. I’d have said 1962.

    She remembers being made to stand in a separate queue as a kid on free school meals, and not going on holiday for years.

    Oh come on. Not even Guardian readers are going to fap to softcore poverty porn like that. “A-a-and we didn’t even own a telly!”, she sobbed, “it was from Radio Rentals!”.

    Still, middle-class, university-educated, media and politics professionals do love to play the Four Yorkshiremen game.

    Anyway, this picture is gold. Ed Miliband is surrounded by women, and he still looks like the biggest fanny:

    http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h–/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/1/23/1422023173055/2232d5b0-1a63-4dce-a0e0-b36904ce50f2-620×399.jpeg

    when you look at what the life of a politician – particularly a female politician – involves, you can see why they aren’t flocking to sign up. The online abuse and mirthless banter,

    Fuck you.

    “Harriet Harperson”

    Mustn’t laugh at Harpic.

    and “calm down, dear”

    If that’s enough to discourage women from politics, they’re better off out of politics. And I mean that sincerely. Politics is an ugly, dirty, thankless business. Those who complain about being criticised or mildly patronised have no clue just what a snake-pit they’ve gotten themselves into.

    But isn’t this what the whole Page 3 debate is about – not putting up with it, not accepting the status quo just because it’s been that way since 1970 and a handful of blokes say so?

    (“A handful” – LOL) You don’t have to accept it – don’t buy it. I don’t like Squirrel Fanciers Monthly, but I don’t get all emotional about its existence. I simply leave it on the newsagent’s shelf and let sketchy blokes from Northern Ireland buy it.

    Asked if she’ll keep taking the Sun, a paper she has professed to read regularly, she fudges. “I feel pissed off today, but um, I, um, we – aargh – people read this paper.

    She wants to live like common people. She wants to do whatever common people do.

    They don’t have kids, and when I ask whether she plans to, she flares. “A man would never get asked that …”

    This is going to sound mean, but there is an incredible amount of ignorance and denial these days about the basic facts of human reproduction.

    Gloria, you’re 43. Your womb is rapidly desiccating. If you haven’t had kids by now, barring intensive and highly expensive medical intervention you never will.

    Men don’t get asked the same question because a man can help create healthy children well into geriatritude. You cannot. Sex And The City lied to you, and you’ve wasted your prime childbearing years on pointless media jobs and now this politics bullshit. In 100 years time nobody will remember you or care what you did.

    When you die alone, eventually your cats will eat your remains.

    “It’s why it makes me cross when they say that all politicians are the same,” says Clarke. “Because when you’re stood in front of somebody like that you think, ‘No, they aren’t.’”

    Yes they bloody are. This one just happens to look a bit like Tim Curry.

  10. I’m pretty sure she was oppressed by boys/men into wanting new clothes and thus into demeaning herself by flashing her bits for cash.

  11. Worth noting that first wave feminist doyenne Jane Addams wrote an infamous White Slavery tract, “A New Conscience and Ancient Evil” which indeed blames the availability of fancy clothes to young women for seducing them into prostitution to pay for them. Also, funnily enough, going out to work (in offices, etc) since it brings them into contact with men, away from their mothers’ stern watchful gaze. It would be a very funny book, if the same nutters were not now running a new White Slavery Panic.

  12. So Much for Subtlety

    Andrew M – “But where’s the harm in posing topless for the Sun?”

    Where to start with that? Well, how did it work out for Sam Fox?

    There was a time when I would have thought it was not necessary to state the obvious. But it seems times have changed.

    Ian B – “There is no harm, and that’s the irony of all this. It’s literally a fuss about nothing. It’s the same as trying to explain that women don’t need to cover their faces to a raving muzzie.”

    Obviously there is harm. There is demonstrable harm. It is damaging to a girl’s chances of forming a genuine and long lasting romantic bond. Look at what happens to Page Three girls.

    God, Nature or Evolution, depending on how you want to roll, is not to be mocked. There are consequences to such actions.

  13. “Unless the misanthropes are actually correct, in that it’s all about those who used to have it trying to make sure that those who still do don’t advertise the fact.”

    That’s not what it is, but there’s more going on than what’s on the surface. I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that nearly all opponents of prostitution and pornography are either old or charmless*.

    In the case of 2 well known former sexual liberals, they’ve converted to saying that Mary Whitehouse was right. Is this because they’ve thought hard about the subject and the wisdom of age has changed their opinions? Or is it because they’ve gone from the women that could grab someone else’s husband to the woman trying to stop her husband being grabbed?

  14. Obviously there is harm. There is demonstrable harm. It is damaging to a girl’s chances of forming a genuine and long lasting romantic bond. Look at what happens to Page Three girls.

    God, Nature or Evolution, depending on how you want to roll, is not to be mocked. There are consequences to such actions.

    Oh bollocks. What happens to them precisely? Other than they retire and have a life like everyone else? Get married, even, many of them. Astonishingly.

    The reality is that most romances fade with time, which is why societies who want to glue people together make divorce difficult or impossible. They don’t dwindle away because the wife got her tits out when she was 18, but because, getting old, bored, not the handsome young man/pretty girl you married any more, I could’ve done better, life must be more than this, I wish he didn’t drink so much, God she nags too much, is this all there is? yada yada.

    You do come out with some rubbish sometimes, SMFS.

  15. Steve,

    “Men don’t get asked the same question because a man can help create healthy children well into geriatritude. You cannot. Sex And The City lied to you, and you’ve wasted your prime childbearing years on pointless media jobs and now this politics bullshit. In 100 years time nobody will remember you or care what you did.”

    Amen to that.

    I was talking to someone about this thing where Google will freeze their employee’s eggs and pointed out that women have no idea what this will mean. If you’re 25 years old, and not a total minger, you probably get sick of the number of men hitting on you. You have no perception of what it’s like being a 40 year old woman. You’ll still get hit on, but you won’t get the same quality of sperm donor.

    The most sensible thing for most women to do would be to have kids at 20, spend 5 or 6 years raising them, then do a degree at home during primary school years, then go back to work part-time in the secondary school years, then full-time when they’re 36.

    Most jobs women don’t require youth. Working a checkout, or a call centre can be done until you’re 60. I’d rather have a more mature woman as a business analyst than a 20 year old. Young women who manage are frequently uncool and panicky.

    And yes, our current setup is based on a very tiny number of women who put career first. Who became high-flyers and could afford to have kids being raised by full-time nannies.

  16. “Since becoming an MP, she’s made a bit of a speciality of conducting national tours, taking the rock star approach to politicking. First there was the “Why do you hate us tour”.

    For the answer, see sentence one. National tours, for fucks sake. Even by the stratospheric standard of politics her ego is off the scale.

  17. She must be a nightmare to know or work with. She is clearly in the (mostly female) camp of people who have an opinion on everything and simply cannot conceive they might be wrong on anything. Add the ego and the crusading zeal and oh what a pain in the arse she must be.

  18. “In the case of 2 well known former sexual liberals, they’ve converted to saying that Mary Whitehouse was right. Is this because they’ve thought hard about the subject and the wisdom of age has changed their opinions? ”

    There is a third possibility: mere contrarianism against accepted wisdom. In the 1970s, Whitehouse was the highly visible emblem of reaction. Now that society has moved almost 180 degrees it is now simply boring to run with the common herd; hence take the opposite position.

    There also sems to be a rhythm in ‘Progressivism’ which, like the magnetic poles, seems to switch to its opposite. In the case of Progressivism the interval is about 30-40 years. Take the attitude to alcohol, for example.

  19. bloke (not) in spain

    @SMfS
    Have you ever actually met Sam Fox?
    I’d say she’s come through the celebrity meatgrinder remarkably intact. Or, at least she’s about as normal as most of us.
    Come to think of it, most of the girls go through the ‘trade on their looks’ circus come out of it fairly well. It’s the nature of the game. The illusions get knocked out of them very early on.
    It’s the other end of the celebrity business spend their lives with their heads jammed firmly up their own butts. Result of endlessly being told how wonderfully talented they are.
    I give you Penny Dreadful for a benchmark.

  20. The Stigler – It’s very strange to me that we are probably more open about sex than previous generations, yet less aware of the realities of fertility.

    So many people expect to have kids “one day”. Well, as the Talmud says: “if not now, when?”

    I know couples still in their 30’s who needed expensive and lengthy IVF treatment to have children. They thought they were still young as far as being new parents goes. The painful truth is, female fertility tends to drop off at an alarming rate after about 30.

    Google will freeze their employee’s eggs and pointed out that women have no idea what this will mean. If you’re 25 years old, and not a total minger, you probably get sick of the number of men hitting on you. You have no perception of what it’s like being a 40 year old woman. You’ll still get hit on, but you won’t get the same quality of sperm donor.

    Sounds like a good deal for Google and a bad one for their young female employees.

    “Hey, ladies! Give our megacorporation the best years of your lives, and we’ll stick your eggs in the freezer so you don’t have to be distracted by being a mum at the age when you’re biologically best equipped for it! Sure, you can have children… whenever. Probably.”

    As you say, the chances of finding the sort of man she’d like to have a family with is much lower for the 40 year old woman than for her 25 year old self.

    These girls are trading their birthright for a mess of Gmail.

    And “I’d like you to fertilise my frozen eggs!” is a great invitation for any man who has options to leg it.

    And yes, our current setup is based on a very tiny number of women who put career first.

    Feminism means freedom of choice. As long as feminists approve of your choices. Women being mothers and wives isn’t helpful in the mission to smash Patriarchy, so those women are thrown under a bus.

  21. @ Tim Newman
    “I know parents are hypocrites of the highest order (for good reason) when it comes to setting rules for their children, ”
    Not all of us: no 1 son has on a number of occasions complained about my/our (usually my) failure to grow up.

  22. It’s also worth considering that the whole work now, kids in your 40s thing has another massive downside few 20 year olds would consider. My parents had my younger brother (planned, and naturally!) when mum was 45 (I was 12).

    While running round after a baby in your mid 40s isn’t too bad, keeping tabs on a teenager when you’re hitting 60 has proved a much tougher proposition than they had allowed for. They love him very much, but I’m sure there must be moments when they think “was another kid that late on such a great idea?”

  23. @ theprole

    I smiled to read about your parents late child. It’s always nice to know we are not the only crazy people out there. Our youngest was born when my wife was 43, like your brother, planned and naturally, and 8 years younger than his next sibling.

    He is now 21 and doing reasonably well in university. The teenage years are usually just an interlude and things turn out better than you fear. We certainly have no regrets.

    On second thought we are probably madder than your parents. Our son is the youngest of 7. When we drove him off to university we had been raising children for 40 years straight.

  24. On the subject of when to have kids, we had no.1 when I 42, no.2 – 44 no.3+4 – 46.

    I’m 51 now and they wear me down. We would all be better off if I were younger.

    You can go raving when you are fifty and you be a parent also – but if you go raving when older, you can go home when you’re worn out and leave the youngsters to rave on into the following afternoon, but you can’t abandon your kids just because you’re worn out, you have to soldier on and everyone suffers. Having kids if far away the biggest thing you will ever do, if the raving or the kids has to give due to lack of youthfulness, then be it the raving.

    Have ’em young, that’s my advice.

    ======
    As an aside, many here will already know of my 3+4, they were the twins featured in the Zoe Williams piece of Feb2013 about trying to look after 6 toddlers. They are the two on the right http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/feb/01/liz-truss-tried-six-toddlers

    (i’m a(n ir)regular on here, have changed id in order to reveal personal stuff re ZW – don’t want journalists trawling back through my old comments, some are rude 🙂 , strange to reflect that i’m hiding my online identity in order to reveal my real one.)

  25. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “Oh bollocks. What happens to them precisely? Other than they retire and have a life like everyone else? Get married, even, many of them. Astonishingly.”

    It depends on how traditional their values are. The South Americans who used to be internationally famous went home and married their first boyfriend. No harm, no foul. But the more developed countries’ girls either do that if they are sensible or they end up doing porn and heroin. They do not have a life like everyone else. Case to point – Sam Fox. She can’t even maintain a lesbian relationship.

    “The reality is that most romances fade with time, which is why societies who want to glue people together make divorce difficult or impossible. They don’t dwindle away because the wife got her tits out when she was 18”

    The reality is that most romances fade. But most people stick together anyway. The problem with getting your tits out when you were 18 is probably first of all it introduces you to a world of high class sh!ts. For instance:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porfirio_Rubirosa

    But second, the more men in your life, the less special any one of them is. It is harder to maintain a relationship when that bond was never there in the first place. The more partners a woman has, the higher her risk of divorce.

    “You do come out with some rubbish sometimes,”

    That’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle Afro-Caribbean. But in the end I don’t make the rules. I am simply reporting them.

  26. But second, the more men in your life, the less special any one of them is. It is harder to maintain a relationship when that bond was never there in the first place. The more partners a woman has, the higher her risk of divorce.

    I’m not convinced by this. Women who have had just one partner can easily be browbeaten into thinking the asshole she is with is no different from all other men, and will stick with a complete asshole out of some misplaced notion that she should only sleep with one guy in her life. Conversely, I know of some women who married a decent guy who after 10 years had her head filled with shit from her divorced mates that he’s really an asshole and she should leave him: having only ever been with one guy, she didn’t know any different.

    Whereas I agree that women who are extremely promiscuous often make bad partners (and I’ve dated “ex” hookers) I think women ought to get around enough in their early 20s to:

    1) Get all the sexual curiosity out of their system (same advice applies to men), and
    2) Learn the difference between a nice guy and an asshole.

    Any woman who has saved herself for a special guy before putting out and wants to keep her purity is asking for trouble, because she won’t know whether he’s an asshole or not until it’s too late. I thought young students sleeping with an asshole in university and spending the next 2 weeks crying over his lack of returned messages or infidelity to be possibly the best life lesson they could learn. By the time they hit mid/late 20s they could see through the bullshit a mile off.

  27. On the other hand, the happily married Linda Lusardi.

    People have all kinds of different lives. Moralists love to declare dubious cause and effect relationships between arbitrary variables, and 99% of the time, they are nonsense that just reflect what the person wants to believe.

  28. How do we know Sam Fox / any other bird of her ilk wouldn’t have gone hatstand anyway?

    Seems to me that wanting to get your baps out in a national newspaper is a good indicator of chronic attention seeking, and attention seekers often go a bit yampy in my experience.

    Doesn’t matter if the attention is ten million blokes fapping over them in a paper or being the office/town bike, once the attention wanes with the fading of the looks, it all goes ratshit.

    Re older conception, my wife recently got up the duff (accidentally). I’m in my mid 40s. To say I was pleased she miscarried is the understatement of my life.

  29. You could argue that being any sort of entertainer or public figure is chronic attention seeking and some kind of character defect. Or recognise that people generally like being admired for something, and adulation and so on. I don’t see any abnormality in that.

    You’re a pretty girl, there’s a market for that, you can make good money, be some degree of famous, travel the world, and when you’re old have something interesting to look back on. Or, work the checkout in Poundland. Tough choice.

  30. Also, im not sure we should assume somebody who gets their tits out in the paper is necessarily promiscuous. I knew lots of girls who wouldn’t go topless on a beach but would shag anyone who bought them a drink; and I knew girls who were happy to flaunt what they had but would be fairly choosy when it came to actually having sex. Women are weird like that.

  31. SMFS is sort of channelling the kind of stuff that appears on the Chateau Heartiste website.

    That is to say they claim that women who spend their most attractive years riding the “cock carousel” (as they put it) do not do so well in their late 30s/40s when they try to find some worshipful beta-male loser who will provide cash and semen to start a family. The CH crowd opine that rootless sex and a life made much easier by female youth and good looks is an ill-preparation for the realities of family life and the decline brought by age.
    This is a slightly different issue than page 3 appearances and subsequent fame etc. But the two may overlap.

  32. Tim Newman,

    “Also, im not sure we should assume somebody who gets their tits out in the paper is necessarily promiscuous.”

    For a lot of them, it’s just like sitting on a beach in Spain.

    A few of them end up doing nude modelling and then porn or escorting, but sampling Wikipedia, it’s rare they do porn (and you can make a fair case that a lot of women regret doing porn based on post-career interviews and the number of women who do 1 scene, that just isn’t the case with Page 3).

  33. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Once again, Steve makes me actually laugh out loud, rather than just LOL. “Unaccountably fat vegans”. “She’s had a hard paper round”. “Looks like Tim Curry”. Solid gold.

  34. As far as the “more than Page 3” goes, back in the heyday (the 80s/90s) there were mostly a mixture of girls who only did Page 3 stuff, and girls who went as far as pink and girl/girl for topshelf mags. A very small number did porn. Nowadays the distinction is even more severe; most of the page 3/Zoo/Nuts type models never even go full nude. They are pure topless only. It’s all actually more “wholesome” (or puritan, by my analysis) than it was back in the Golden Age of Page 3.

  35. @Ian B

    ‘You could argue that being any sort of entertainer or public figure is chronic attention seeking and some kind of character defect.’

    I could, and I would.

  36. Tim N,

    >> They don’t have kids, and when I ask whether she plans to, she flares. “A man would never get asked that …”
    > They do. Oh Lordy, they do.

    Yeah, I keep hearing this claim that men “never” get asked whether we plan to have kids and am puzzled by it. Has it not occurred to the women who make this claim to first ask some men whether it’s true?

    And it wasn’t even in the context of her career. She was asked at a point in the interview where they were discussing her marriage, for fuck’s sake. Yes, the subject of kids often comes up when discussing marriage. No, really.

    I have two kids, and am regularly asked if I plan to have more. Pretty sure I’m not being oppressed by the patriarchy. Or the sciurarchy.

    Stigler,

    > The most sensible thing for most women to do would be to have kids at 20, spend 5 or 6 years raising them, then do a degree at home during primary school years, then go back to work part-time in the secondary school years, then full-time when they’re 36.

    Absolutely, yes, and I’ve met a few women who agree — with the benefit of hindsight. Men, too: no, we don’t have the biological clock, but the fact is that raising kids takes energy. A few sleepless nights is so much less hassle in your twenties than your thirties.

    Friend of mine’s mum was a young single mum with a handful of O-levels. She brought him up, then went back to education. Is now rather important and well respected in her field. Why this obsession with building the career first? It really can be done any time. Having kids can’t.

  37. Worth noting as well that male politicians are considered suspect if they aren’t married with kids: Blair virtually marched Broon to the church, Portillo was seriously undermined by a lack of kids and ghey implications, Hague actually had to make a public statement about lack of issue.

    I wouldn’t mind if some of the things feminists complain about were actually real. They just make shit up. If cows falling from the sky were killing people at random, the feminists would have a “protect women from falling cows” campaign, and declare that men are not suffering the falling cow problem, and when you pointed to the press reports of men killed by falling cows they’d call you a misogynist ignoring the terrible suffering of women.

  38. Steve,

    > When you die alone, eventually your cats will eat your remains.

    It’s weird people don’t get this very obvious point. People say they don’t want kids because they’re enjoying their various hobbies so much. I don’t think they understand that being ninety’s not like being forty. Look, one day, you will be incapable of those hobbies. You may not be able to walk. Your eyesight and/or hearing may well be screwed, meaning you can’t get much fun out of watching TV or reading or listening to music. Your memory might not be up to much. None of these things are certain, but they’re hardly unlikely. And one thing that is very likely to bring you joy even under such awful circumstances is a visit from the grandkids.

    And all these active sporty types who are looking after themselves think that stuff’s not going to happen to them, and they don’t seem to realise that, even if they’re right, that’s a bad thing. Because it means you will outlive your friends.

    My grandma was fit and tough. Used to walk for miles across the Yorkshire Moors. Once broke her leg but kept walking for a couple of weeks anyway until eventually relenting to my parents’ nagging and going to see a doctor about it, just to shut them up. Outlived her husband by four decades. Outlived her sister and all her friends. If she hadn’t had kids, the only person at her funeral would have been her.

    But hey, at least she wouldn’t have been oppressed by the patriarchy.

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