Ooooh, yes, homophobia in Ukip!

A Ukip-authorised Christian group has been condemned for distributing a newsletter that refers to gay people as depraved sodomites and argues that they could be converted from a state of vice.

On Tuesday night, the party distanced itself from the publication by the Christian Soldiers of Ukip but was facing calls to categorically cut all ties with the group, which holds events annually at the party’s conference and has previously published articles by the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage.

The comments emerged in an article about last year’s Manchester Pride event, which was described in the Christian Soldiers newsletter as an “annual parade of depravity”. It said: “Thousands of people proclaiming their pride in their depravity paraded through the streets watched by multiple thousands of supporters applauding the display of wickedness and seeking to drown out the voices of the few crying in the wilderness.

Look, people are allowed to express their views. It’s, umm, what’s that word…..democracy isn’t it?

As to the wider party when I worked for it I and everyone else worked bloody hard to get the first transgender lesbian MEP elected, at least one of the current crop is out and has been for decades and one press bod used to be the student union’s gay officer while at uni. That there are some people within the party who hold views the bien pensants do not approve of might well be true. But then said bien pensants don’t seem to approve of any views held by anyone at all in the party. As an organisation Ukip is no more homophobic (or any other form of -ic or -ist) than any other organisation in the UK. Except of course for the eurocrats, they can all go boil their heads. And the federasts.

68 thoughts on “Ooooh, yes, homophobia in Ukip!”

  1. I think the events of the last few months show very clearly that, no, you are not allowed to express your views if they do not agree with the Mob or the Meedja or the Politicians.

  2. A Ukip-authorised Christian group has been condemned for distributing a newsletter that refers to gay people as depraved sodomites and argues that they could be converted from a state of vice.

    Totally agree. As long as it’s lithe, leggy young lesbians we’re talking about. I don’t think I’m equipped to convert Stephen Fry.

    the party distanced itself from the publication by the Christian Soldiers of Ukip but was facing calls to categorically cut all ties with the group

    Banish them to the forbidden zone! That’ll teach those fuckers some tolerance.

    The comments emerged in an article about last year’s Manchester Pride event, which was described in the Christian Soldiers newsletter as an “annual parade of depravity”

    It is though, isn’t it? I thought that was a big part of the appeal.

    I and everyone else worked bloody hard to get the first transgender lesbian MEP elected

    And look how that turned out Tim.

    Men who get their bits chopped off and call themselves ladies are mental. Nearly every one of them is also an attention-seeking drama magnet.

  3. @Steve

    ‘And look how that turned out Tim.
    Men who get their bits chopped off and call themselves ladies are mental. Nearly every one of them is also an attention-seeking drama magnet.’

    I fear you are a terrible cissexist, Steve. I bet you hate otherkin, too.

  4. I’ve long since had a relaxed attitude towards gay men. The more the merrier as far as I’m concerned.

    Less competition for me with the ladies.

  5. Besides, before deciding to listen to these people’s views on sexuality, shouldn’t we be checking to see if they pay the right amount of tax in the right place at the right time?

    One of them might have an ISA.

  6. Due to the prevalence of homophobia amongst Muslims, Islam should be banned in the UK. Oh no. Hang on. They’ve got brown faces, and Guardianistas apply a different set of rules to people with brown faces.

  7. Interested – I fear you are a terrible cissexist, Steve. I bet you hate otherkin, too.

    Yes and yes!

    I first saw Nikki Sinclaire when a poster appeared in my town for a party called “I Can’t Believe It’s Not UKIP” or some such.

    I remember thinking: “why do they have a picture of Lurch from The Addams Family up there?”

    Turns out it was Nikki.

    I’m the most heterosexual man on Earth, and am never likely to win an award for political correctness.

    Yet I’d happily vote for a gay guy if I agreed with his political stance. If Julian Clary was my UKIP candidate, I’d get behind him.

    But I’d never vote for a ladyboy, for the same reason I wouldn’t vote for somebody who thought he was a goldfish.

    Trannies are bad news. Whatever brain chemistry and/or psychological problems cause them to want to mutilate their genitals also manifests itself in lots of other frequently hilarious but sometimes tragic ways.

    The most humane thing we can do for trannies is refuse to fuel their delusions and implore them to get psychiatric help. Electing them to public office is just cruel.

  8. The very strength of party politics is that parties are necessarily coalitions and therefore force compromise. The whole point is that a load of people who disagree with each other about lots of things find common cause in one party. It forces them to prioritise: “Who do we hate more: gays or the EC?” Yet there’s this bizarre popular obsession with making every single person in a party ideologically compliant.

    I would rather vote for a party that allows different views inside it than one that banishes or sacks someone as soon as they express a view that hasn’t been approved by the press office.

    The media keep jumping over every occasion Carswell and Farage disagree, apparently thinking it’s a bad thing. As far as I’m concerned, it’s all pro-UKIP publicity.

  9. In the old days when I was growing up in a rough boring provincial town one longed for a few more pooves around the place – much less likely to punch you in the face in the pub for absolutely no reason.

  10. That photo of the Abbotomus fairly turned my stomach. Her message is risible, but note how sympathetic the article is, and consider what the tone would have been like if some blue-haired elderly white Tory woman had said the same thing.

  11. “people are allowed to express their views. It’s, umm, what’s that word…..democracy isn’t it?”

    No. That’s liberty. Democracy is something else. There are democracies in which by popular will the expression of certain views is banned.

  12. Rob,

    > In the old days when I was growing up in a rough boring provincial town one longed for a few more pooves around the place – much less likely to punch you in the face in the pub for absolutely no reason.

    Unless you really wanted them to.

  13. The comments emerged in an article about last year’s Manchester Pride event, which was described in the Christian Soldiers newsletter as an “annual parade of depravity”.

    That’s actually a pretty good description of the event. Just I don’t think it’s a bad thing.

  14. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Newman – “That’s actually a pretty good description of the event. Just I don’t think it’s a bad thing.”

    The hypocrisy here is that the Gays tend to think it is a pretty good description too. They are usually proud of it.

    Won’t stop anyone mocking Christians for pointing it out.

  15. So Much for Subtlety

    Steve – “If Julian Clary was my UKIP candidate, I’d get behind him.”

    I am sure that behind him is excactly where Clary would like you to be. With or without the squirrel suit.

    “Whatever brain chemistry and/or psychological problems cause them to want to mutilate their genitals also manifests itself in lots of other frequently hilarious but sometimes tragic ways.”

    So just for the record, you’re holding Julian Clary up as the standard of normal against which transvestites are being judged? Julian Clary?

    “The most humane thing we can do for trannies is refuse to fuel their delusions and implore them to get psychiatric help. Electing them to public office is just cruel.”

    Not just transvestites either.

  16. @Steve – You could be right. It’s only the tail that differentiates rats and squirrels and that tail is basically a giant, camp feather boa.

  17. Sorry if I’m being terminally thick here, but what’s the deal with the squirrel suit gag? I’ve seen it mentioned several times here now.

  18. So Much for Subtlety – I am sure that behind him is excactly where Clary would like you to be.

    Aye, he probably likes a bit of rough.

    So just for the record, you’re holding Julian Clary up as the standard of normal against which transvestites are being judged? Julian Clary?

    Granted, I don’t know much about Julian Clary other than that he’s a flamboyantly gay comedian, but sure.

    I don’t thinking bumming another man is something amazing and praiseworthy, but on the other hand, I don’t particularly care either. If two blokes want to wrestle each other naked while listening to Erasure, that’s their business. Doesn’t mean they can’t be a perfectly good MP or employee or friend.

    Trannies, OTOH, are insane. Absolute, bugfuck, squirrel-droppings crazy. I used to have sympathy for them until the internet came along and gave them a global platform for their lunacy.

    There’s a low-level war going on social media between radfems and trannies at the moment. It’s a lot of fun to watch. But it’s also rather spine-chilling to realise that the trannies make the radfems seem like voices of sweet reason.

    “Just because I have a penis doesn’t mean I’m not a woman!” and “DIE CIS SCUM!” are among the more coherent sentiments expressed by the tranny hordes.

    Absolutely mental.

  19. @Steve:

    We had a pre-op trans in our office years ago.

    He was off work for a few months, then came back to work one day dressed as a woman.

    The HR police said we weren’t allowed to even bring it up. So someone we’ve known and worked with for years, and we can’t even say “So, Jim*, been up to anything in the last few months?” And we had to address him as Jemima* and also explain to others outside the department that this “new” person wasn’t actually “new”.

    They left shortly afterwards and I don’t know if they went through with the full treatment or not.

    *name changed to protect the person involved

  20. This is because we live in a moral tyranny. It is closer to a theocracy than a political tyranny like communism or fascism. The primary goal is the enforcement by any means of moral- and thus social- compliance. This is done by manipulation of the “taboo system” built into every human brain- the capacity to readily absorb and enforce social conventions with a range of responses from disapproval to shunning and shaming to violence.

    This is why I keep arguing that to understand our current state, it is far more useful to look historically towards puritanism than, say, marxism. It also helps one understand that rational argument won’t get you anywhere, because it doesn’t work on a rational level.

  21. Wasn’t there a film recently about how gays and transvestities worked down the coal mines and were all put in concentration camps by Mrs Thatcher?

    No wonder she’s a hate figure.

  22. > Wasn’t there a film recently about how gays and transvestities worked down the coal mines and were all put in concentration camps by Mrs Thatcher?

    Apparently, it was “The best British film of the year”, a phrase I have learnt the hard way to interpret as “AVOID AT ALL COSTS.”

  23. “Squirrel suit gag”

    A gag as well?

    Moving on from “normal” squirrel pron to squirrel S&M pron……my eyes are well and truly opened.

  24. GlenDorran – yes, it doesn’t really help the poor bastards when they’re treated as a protected species. Must make em very lonely.

    Andrew C – Wasn’t there a film recently about how gays and transvestities worked down the coal mines and were all put in concentration camps by Mrs Thatcher?

    It was called “Velvet Goldmine”.

  25. “As to the wider party *when I worked for it*….”

    Genuine question – has it changed since then?

    My impression is that it has, but that’s an outsider’s view.

  26. Steve: “The most humane thing we can do for trannies is refuse to fuel their delusions and implore them to get psychiatric help.”

    That is pretty much how it works in the NHS. Transperson turns up at the GP or psychiatrist saying “I’m in the wrong body”. Transperson is referred to a specialist shrink who assesses whether the desire is motivated by depression, sexual fetish, hormonal problems, misdiagnosed intersexuality or a psychiatric condition. Transperson is questioned over several months to determine whether the desire is sincere. Hormones, which suppress sexual appetite as well as changing some physical attributes, may be prescribed as part of diagnosis.

    Transperson will be asked to perform a “real life test” (aka real life experience). This is to live in desired identity 24 hours/7 days, employed or seeking employment, for an extended period, typically a year. The test is supervised by psychiatrists. Some patients drop out during the test.

    At the end of real life test, Transperson may be offered gender reassignment surgery. Some do not take up the offer.

    We can be confident that those following the NHS route have been treated by psychiatrists, and those who receive reassignment surgery spent a lot of time on the couch.

    The NHS methodology is not perfect. I’ve chatted with nurses who doubted whether some patients had fulfilled the real life test. But the methodology is not trivial. When medical staff are doing their jobs, it is hard to cheat.

    In the modern world, one can hop on a plane to a country where gender reassignment surgery is performed for $. To me, that is extreme cosmetic surgery. Spending time with a shrink is the most important part of “changing sex” or understanding a trans identity.

  27. Charlieman – That is pretty much how it works in the NHS. Transperson turns up at the GP or psychiatrist saying “I’m in the wrong body”. Transperson is referred to a specialist shrink who assesses whether the desire is motivated by depression, sexual fetish, hormonal problems, misdiagnosed intersexuality or a psychiatric condition. Transperson is questioned over several months to determine whether the desire is sincere. Hormones, which suppress sexual appetite as well as changing some physical attributes, may be prescribed as part of diagnosis.

    Yar. It’s not working though, is it?

    The suicide rates for post-op trannies are sky-high. Getting hormones and/or surgery is just making them worse off in every possible way.

    Plus, trannies aren’t stupid. They know exactly what to tell doctors in order to get the outcome they think they want.

    There is no such thing as a woman trapped in a man’s body. It’s a mental illness in the same sense that people who have delusions that their limbs don’t belong to them are mentally ill. We don’t lop off people’s healthy arms and legs just because it would align their physical body with their mental delusion.

    We shouldn’t lop off willies either.

  28. Steve: “The suicide rates for post-op trannies are sky-high. Getting hormones and/or surgery is just making them worse off in every possible way.”

    I pointed out that trans people who are treated by responsible medics spend some time with a shrink. I didn’t claim that therapy — whether it be talking, hormones or surgery — fixed all problems. I did mention that psychiatrists look out for depression in trans patients.

    Suicide attempt rates are higher for all trans people, according to badly reported studies on the internet. Blokes who like to wear a pair of stockings (“cis gender males who identify as crossdressers”) are more likely to attempt suicide than blokes who don’t. I don’t think cause and effect are demonstrated by any study that I have read or by your arguments.

    “Plus, trannies aren’t stupid. They know exactly what to tell doctors in order to get the outcome they think they want.”

    When I worked in market research, psychologists told me to never ask a direct question. If you talk long enough about something, people will answer the direct question which you did not ask.

  29. “When I worked in market research, psychologists told me to never ask a direct question. If you talk long enough about something, people will answer the direct question which you did not ask.”

    Answer (and not this context): don’t talk to market researchers..:)

  30. > We don’t lop off people’s healthy arms and legs just because it would align their physical body with their mental delusion.

    The NHS did in fact cut off someone’s leg for exactly this reason a few years back. And lo! there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  31. PF: “don’t talk to market researchers..:)”

    If it takes more than five minutes, interviewers should pay for an interview. “This will take 15 minutes, but perhaps these vouchers will ease your shopping…”

    Web questionnaires (“we will enter your name into a draw”) are mostly run by cheapskates and scum bags. Earnest opinion questioners argue that they are doing it for the common good for free or they pay you.

  32. “At the end of real life test, Transperson may be offered gender reassignment surgery. Some do not take up the offer.”

    And the ones who were rejected are the ones who are suspects in the “Buffalo Bill” murders…Clarice…

  33. So Much for Subtlety

    Steve – “We don’t lop off people’s healthy arms and legs just because it would align their physical body with their mental delusion.”

    SQ2 has pointed out that the Scottish NHS has done this before. They have actually done it at least twice:

    http://blog.medicaljustice.com/the-ethics-of-amputating-a-perfectly-healthy-leg/

    In 1997, Dr. Robert Smith, a Scottish surgeon saw a patient with an atypical request. He wanted the surgeon to amputate his perfectly healthy left leg. Why the request? The patient argued his left foot wasn’t part of him. “It felt alien.” Dr. Smith had the patient see a psychiatrist. The patient was diagnosed with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). Smith performed the operation. At follow-up a couple of years later, the patient reported his life was positively transformed by the operation. Word got out. Smith saw another such patient and performed a similar amputation. And the second patient also reported a positive result.

    What do you do if the patient wants their leg cut off so much they are willing to damage it until the doctor has to?

    But of course we are willing to talk about the mental health problems of people who want bits of them cut off – as long as it is something trivial like a leg and not a penis. Say something about the motivations of transsexuals, and they will try to get you fired or even jailed:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder

    The Americans charged and jailed a doctor in California who used to offer this service.

  34. S2,

    “Apparently, it was “The best British film of the year”, a phrase I have learnt the hard way to interpret as “AVOID AT ALL COSTS.””

    Generally “British film” does the job. Either something grim on a council estate or something involving men at Oxford in the 1950s, probably to do with homosexuality. Yeah, we get it, homophobia is bad. Now bring on the car chases and explosions.

  35. Rob quotes me: “At the end of real life test, Transperson may be offered gender reassignment surgery. Some do not take up the offer.”

    Then him: “And the ones who were rejected are the ones who are suspects in the “Buffalo Bill” murders…Clarice…”

    I’m not an expert on bat shit crazy sociopaths. Or even transgendered sociopaths. My guess is that the shrinks, whilst being specialists in gender identity, might have a clue that a patient is dangerous or bonkers.

    And whilst different nations have different laws, they always have to do something to keep loons off the street. Citizens rightly defend loons in democracy.

    Ed Gein lived an isolated life and did not attend a doctor. He never considered thinking about visiting a shrink who would not have had a fucking clue anyway.

  36. SMFS: “What do you do if the patient wants their leg cut off so much they are willing to damage it until the doctor has to?”

    “But of course we are willing to talk about the mental health problems of people who want bits of them cut off”

    Who is the army? “We are willing to talk about the mental health problems of people…”

  37. Steve (and others)

    Just an FYI.. ‘Trannies’ is short for ‘Transvestites’, who are, usually, heterosexual men who like to dress as women and, often, take on a female persona when they do. Eddie Izzard, for example, is a tans estate (or, in his words, a lesbian trapped in the body of a man). Transvestites do not have their dangly bits butchered.

    Transsexuals are people who consider they were born with the wrong bits, and may take the most drastic of actions to ‘correct’ matters. But they’re not who people are talking about when they say ‘trannies’.

  38. So Much for Subtlety

    Charlieman – “Who is the army?”

    Occasionally I wonder if you post while under the influence. I don’t mean that in a nasty way, but sometimes your posts lack a certain coherence. You mean who is allowed to be mean about people who want bits of them chopped off? Well all of us. Everyone. Wikipedia for a start:

    BIID is typically accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs to achieve that end. BIID can be associated with apotemnophilia, sexual arousal based on the image of one’s self as an amputee. The cause of BIID is unknown. One theory states that the cause of BIID is a neurological failing of the brain’s inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body’s physical form

    Go through that, replace BIID with anything to do with transsexuals, post it anywhere you like and you will see what the difference between a free debate and a totalitarianism in the making is.

    Deidre McCloskey is a sensible economists. As long as the subject is economics. But when J. Michael Bailey published The Man Who Would Be Queen McCloskey didn’t just try to get him fired, McCloskey tried to get him jailed.

  39. TTG

    I’m being a bit slow this evening – run that one past me again.

    “lesbian trapped in the body of a man”

    So that means that he would prefer to be a chick playing with a woman rather than a dick playing with a woman?

    Did I get that right (and is he sure)?

    Sounds like he wants his cake and eat it…

  40. Stig,

    > Now bring on the car chases and explosions.

    Except, actually, please God no, because the British can’t do them properly. Did you see Welcome To The Punch?

    “OK, everyone, jump into cars and drive them fast! Look angry! Fire some guns! Now jump out again! … That’s what the Americans do, isn’t it? I’m sure it’ll be fine.”

  41. SMFS: “Occasionally I wonder if you post while under the influence.”

    100% of the time in response to you. I couldn’t cope with your bonkersness otherwise. What next?

    “I don’t mean that in a nasty way, but sometimes your posts lack a certain coherence.”

    And many of your arguments amount to nonsense. Let’s try:
    “BIID can be associated with apotemnophilia, sexual arousal based on the image of one’s self as an amputee…”

    Versus what I wrote about trans people in plain English.

  42. So Much for Subtlety

    PF – “So that means that he would prefer to be a chick playing with a woman rather than a dick playing with a woman?”

    I assume he was raised by Christians and/or feminists who told him from an early age that men are sinful creatures whose sexual desires are disgusting. While women are pure angels who sometimes submit to their husband’s vile tastes.

    Thus he can only desire sex without guilt if he thinks of himself as a woman. A lesbian can desire sex with another woman without guilt.

  43. The Thought Gang – yar. I meant trannies as in short for transsexuals. It can also be slang for a wireless but I didn’t mean that. 🙂

    SMFS – when J. Michael Bailey published The Man Who Would Be Queen McCloskey didn’t just try to get him fired, McCloskey tried to get him jailed.

    This is the kind of histrionics I mean. They’re not well people. When you read their life stories they tend to be painfully lonely.

    How much of that is due to other people finding it awkward to cope with someone they knew as a man suddenly wearing lipstick and a dress and calling himself Barbara, and how much is due to them driving people away with their toxic personalities – especially when hormone treatments throw their emotions for a loop? I’d guess about 50/50.

    S2 – Did you see Welcome To The Punch?

    Did you see “Hot Fuzz” or “28 Days Later” or “Dog Soldiers”?

    We can make good popcorn flicks in this country. Unfortunately the people who know how to make successful commercial movies tend to fuck off to America at the first opportunity, so we’re left with a predominance of people who want to make dreary social message films using lottery funding.

    Case in point: the BFI still refuses to fund my screenplay about the erotic adventures of Michael Foot.

    Bastards.

  44. SMFS: “A lesbian can desire sex with another woman without guilt.”

    Distance of 30 years denies career for a potential soft porn writer.

  45. @ PF

    It is important to remember that Eddie Izzard is a comedian. He says things for comic effect, but not all things he says are so intended. So I don’t know if we’re supposed to try and interpret that soundbite literally.

    @ Steve

    Yes, I presumed you were. So, for the avoidance of doubt, I was saying that ‘trannies’ ISN’T short for transexuals. Ever. But then I googled it and, according to wiki, it possibly is. So I stand corrected.. perhaps it was changed at the same meeting that Bendydick Cucumberthatch missed. Or whoever told me was just wrong. *Crawls back under stone*.

  46. Here’s the thing; the transexual argument is that humans are born hardwired with a knowledge of their own sex, and transexuals have been born with the wrong wiring. Is this true? We don’t know.

    Here’s another thing; nobody knows the mechanism by which a human or other higher mammal of one sex knows that its sexual target is the other sex, and how it comes to recognise them. In insects, it’s simple things like emitting smells, or even bioluminescence that cause a very simple nervous system reaction in the other sex. But what makes me as a male human know to be attracted to females- well, we just do not know. Is my appreciation for tits and arse hardwired? Do gays have the wrong wiring? Is the wiring inverted in paedophiles (so they avoid tits and arse)? It would be nice to have an answer to all this, but we have no answer at all.

    Back with transsexuals, I swing both ways. I think it might be hardwired, though I think there are some good arguments for why evolution wouldn’t create such a brain structure. It may be that some trans are victims of a congenital error, and others have a purely psychological issue i.e. are delusional. There may thus be more than one kind of transsexual, and it may be the “psychological” type who are more prone to regret transitioning.

    Point is, I don’t think we actually have enough information to make a confident declaration either way.

  47. I agree that we don’t have enough information about biochemistry and psychology to know why would-be transsexuals think the way they do. But we do have enough information about the current state of medical science to know whether we can actually change someone’s sex: we can’t.

    My view is the same as the Judean People’s Front’s: everyone has the right to change sex if they want, but that right is not currently usable.

    Course, everyone also has the right to all the drastic cosmetic surgery and hormone pills they want. I just think it’s a shame — and arguably fraudulent — that doctors are allowed to sell this to vulnerable screwed-up people as a “sex change operation”.

  48. So Much for Subtlety

    Charlieman – “And many of your arguments amount to nonsense. Let’s try: …. Versus what I wrote about trans people in plain English.”

    Umm, Chuck, Chuckie, you paying attention? It is not my fault if what is clearly labelled as a quote from Wikipedia is poor English. You know, coz I did not write it.

  49. Squander-

    I am inclined to agree. I am also deeply critical (haha!) of the current interpretations of transexuality which are based on a critical theory of gender rather than science and medicine.

    I was just saying that we simply don’t know whether this is some kind of physical (congenital) condition, or a matter of delusion. If it is the former, it may be that the person will be happier in a facsimile of the “correct” sex than in the body they were born with, if we can’t fix the condition itself.

    I tend these days to veer towards the opinion that it is psychological, and I think there are one or two good arguments for why that is the more likely case. But we really don’t know.

  50. The Thought Gang – you probably were right, but then they changed it again just to catch you out. When I’m right it’s usually by accident.

    Ian B – But what makes me as a male human know to be attracted to females

    Boobies!

    It may be that some trans are victims of a congenital error, and others have a purely psychological issue i.e. are delusional.

    My guess is that it’s a real hotchpotch of different things that have been awkwardly welded together as “transgender”, partly for LGBTQWERTY politics, partly out of medical ignorance.

    The theories of Dr John Money – that gender is a learned behaviour – have been thoroughly falsified by the disastrous case of David Reimer, where a boy had his penis removed in infancy, was raised as a girl, and it eventually drove him to suicide.

    So it seems gender identity is more nature than nurture.

    But we can’t entirely discount nurture – lots of transsexuals seem to fetishise the idea of themselves in a female body. That could be caused by their upbringing, or it could be a chemical or developmental problem in the brain. It’s not well understood, and LGBTQWERTY politics only serves to dampen honest enquiry into it rather than enlighten.

    We do know that the medical outcomes of male-to-female transexuals are thoroughly miserable. Their suicide rate should be a medical scandal.

    The head head-shrinker at the prestigious John Hopkins Hospital in America says transsexuality is a mental disorder and notes that post-op trannies have a suicide rate 20 times that of the general population.

    To prove how sane and reasonable they are, trannies have responded with characteristic vituperation and hysteria, accusing him of being an evil bigoted trannyphobe.

    Back with transsexuals, I swing both ways.

    Fnarr!

  51. Steve-

    The problem for your argument is this- if you conclude that “gender” is hardwired, you have to allow for the wrong wiring as a physical condition. So it’s a bit of a Catch 22.

  52. Ian B – Oh yes. It’s worse than a Catch 22, it’s a Catch 23½.

    Like in the days when transorbital lobotomies were performed willy nilly, our medical community is prescribing brain-addling hormones and radical surgery for a condition, or conditions, that are only dimly understood.

    Still, it seems reasonable to me that gender is mostly hardwired and not fully or easily malleable. Another question is to what extent soi-disant transgendered folks are, in any real sense, the opposite gender.

    Most trannies present as blokes in a dress. There’s nothing feminine about their behaviour, other than their desire to be known as Mildred or what-have-you.

    When I hear of some burly ex-Army officer or fireman with four kids proclaiming that he always felt he was really a woman, I wonder how much of that is true, how much is bullshit for the consumption of doctors and relatives, and how much he talked himself into believing after some sort of crisis in his life.

    A small subset of trannies are noticeably effeminate gay men who are indeed more skewed towards the pink part of the gender spectrum than the blue bit. They tend to be more convincing acting the female role because they were more feminine to begin with.

    Did the latter get too much estrogen in utero, while the former mostly suffer from fetishes or other psychological issues? Possibly.

  53. We do know that the medical outcomes of male-to-female transexuals are thoroughly miserable.

    The Thai transexuals don’t tend to last long, something to do with the enormous physical and psychological trauma. A lot die in their 40s. But most Thai ladyboys have the full equipment down below and up top either silicone or hormone-enhanced tits up top (which, I am told, is what the market demands). Most of the ladyboys are insane, but whether this has anything to do with their sexuality as opposed to their being 1) Thai and 2) hookers I don’t know.

    Maybe a research grant for one of our bolder commenters?

  54. A gay mate of mine summed up his views on transexuals thusly, in reference to a blonde twink he knew who had the op:

    “He’s gone from a beautiful boy to an ugly woman”

    Outside Brazilians and Thais, this seems to be the case generally.

  55. Tim Newman

    If it’s any help I teach in a Thai high school. The ladyboys become obvious at puberty. There doesn’t apear to be any nurture involved. They just happen. Most don’t become protitutes. We also have tom ladies but you don’t hear so much about them. Thais on average seem to have much lower sexual differentiation than Europeans.

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