We need to change this headline a little

Stonewall is right to bring our trans brothers or sisters in from the cold

98 thoughts on “We need to change this headline a little”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    They are a wave, no, they are a particle!

    Obviously Schrödinger’s cat was trans. Not sure if it was a brother or a sister until you look at it.

    In the meantime the c*nt with the most punchable face in British politics says:

    But there are other reasons, and that should lead to some reflection and self-criticism by people like me. I have written columns on all sorts of topics – hell, I’ve even written about the merits of cycling helmets – but this is the first time I’ve ever written about trans issues.

    Because, of course, a lot of people ride bicycles but to a first order approximation there are no Trans people in the world. They are so small we could ignore them and no one would notice.

    Which leads to the next comment:

    Trans people are murdered for who they are: more than 200 were killed across the world last year

    Even if they are as vanishingly rare as a Gay Kenyan White Rhino, it is clear that being Trans is damn safe. Only 200? From all causes? That makes being Trans safer than pretty much anything. I bet more cyclists were murdered last year for being ar$es on the road.

    As a final word, I like how mental head cases push Leftists to be mental head cases too:

    There was a “discussion to be had” over whether trans people are “a social category”, but “trans women are not, by definition, biological females.” This was published in the New Statesman, a left-of-centre publication. It is my firm belief that in generations to come we will look back at such commentary as we do now on discussions of women, gays and black people in the magazines of the 1950s.

    Owen, honey, Trans are by the very meaning of the word biological, not biologically women. You can insist, like King Canute, otherwise all you like. It ain’t going to change it.

  2. As a general observation it seems to me that the stridency of a minority group is almost in inverse proportion to its size.

  3. So Much for Subtlety

    Matthew L – “As a percentage, that’s considerably higher than cyclists.”

    That may be true I suppose. But let us suppose that one in ten thousand people are trans. That means worldwide there are 600,000 of them. 1 in 3000? Actually I am convinced. That sounds fairly dangerous. We need to save the endangered Thai ladyboy!

    This is not a vitally important topic that Owen C*ntface needs to be talking about. I wonder how often he has written on malaria? TB?

    This is ignoring the fact that the main danger to Trans appears to be themselves, other Trans and then other Gays. I doubt many of these deaths, in the West at least, were heterosexual hate crimes. Odd that almost half of them should have taken place in Brazil.

  4. trans/trannies – if I have it right seem to be being much more aggressively promoted and protected than say a year ago. Something happen?
    Or is it to add to the feminist/gay/ score card.

  5. SMFS – Brazil is full of trannies (don’t know why), many of whom are prostitutes. I would imagine the murder rate for Brazilian hookers of all flavours is pretty high.

    john malpas – I think it is partially due to the increasingly hysterical and unhinged leanings of the ‘progressive left’. The ravings of the TS crowd now seem acceptable to Owen Jones and his ilk.

  6. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Newman – “Well, that explains why the sentry shot him at Chancellorsville.”

    A White heterosexualist shot another man engaged in restraining a horse with leather bondage gear? An accident he claims?

    Clearly a zoophobic hate crime! I demand Owen Baby writes an article denouncing this atrocity! The Zoophiliac community must be protected! The world should be safe for men who want to have sex with squirrels.

  7. So Much for Subtlety

    john malpas – “if I have it right seem to be being much more aggressively promoted and protected than say a year ago. Something happen?”

    I think that the Left is running out of angry people who are plausibly suffering. They need the Oppressed to live on, like zombies need brains. Gay people are pretty happy at the moment and not complaining that much. The wimmz are either happy enough or too crazy to get much public sympathy. And the workers all voted for Thatcher.

    MC – “Brazil is full of trannies (don’t know why), many of whom are prostitutes. I would imagine the murder rate for Brazilian hookers of all flavours is pretty high.”

    Slavery? The long Arab occupation? Too much Catholic education? I wonder.

    It may just be better reporting.

  8. This makes no sense: but “trans women are not, by definition, biological females.” This was published in the New Statesman”.

    If they are biological females, then they’re just females, so why the separatism?

  9. Time to disband our footling political parties and install a benign Junta made up of older Matrons, Cricket Scorers and the like. Is there really much of an issue here?

    If person X started as gender A, but only feels “normal” as gender B, then leave them to it. None of our business. This would include using B toilets. Meanwhile, everyone, regardless of current or previous gender, should remember to clean up after themselves, AND WASH THEIR HANDS.

  10. Brazil is full of trannies (don’t know why), many of whom are prostitutes. I would imagine the murder rate for Brazilian hookers of all flavours is pretty high.

    This. Same in Thailand for the ladyboys. They tend to inhabit the seedier parts of town and mix with dodgy people as a matter of course. Note that twat Owen Jones didn’t say they were killed because they were trans, simply that 200 trans people were killed. Might as well say a left-handed guy has been murdered.

  11. Well this talk about not being right to call trannies biological women has out-pythoned monty python, hasn’t it?

    FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.

    REG: What’s the point?

    FRANCIS: What?

    REG: What’s the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can’t have babies?!

    FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.

    REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.

  12. Sorry I should have said it being wrong to call trannies not biological women. It’s all so fucked up I’m becoming confused.

  13. bloke (not) in spain

    [[ MC – “Brazil is full of trannies (don’t know why), many of whom are prostitutes. I would imagine the murder rate for Brazilian hookers of all flavours is pretty high.”

    Slavery? The long Arab occupation? Too much Catholic education? I wonder.

    It may just be better reporting. ]]

    Just markets. Brazil is one of the centers of sex tourism. Like Bangkok. Or, to an extent, the city I live in in Southern Spain. (pop 70K) Where we have a hooker/civilian ratio a couple of orders of magnitude greater than London. Amongst them being at least 5 trans to my knowledge. And one of them has told me the punters are almost exclusively non-resident.
    We also have three golf courses.
    Not saying I’m making any connection with men being away from their wives on a foreign vacation whatsoever. Of course there’s nothing odd about golfers. Following a small ball about the countryside’s entirely normal.

  14. My personal opinion is that Trans people are mentally ill and require therapy. The medical profession doesn’t indulge the fantasies of schizophrenics so why treat those of trans people as true?

    Doesn’t one of the major medical institutions in the US define it similarly? (cant find the link)

    Don’t the stats reveal that the suicide rates for trans people go up after transition surgery?

    I’m not trying to be heartless, I think the left’s instinctive emotional response to the these issues is dangerous. Look at the mad invective Julie Bindle received last year…

  15. bloke (not) in spain

    That was an interesting little excursion…
    A little research turns up Tim’s part of the world not only has a lot of golf courses….but a considerable number of trans hookers.
    Not implying that would influence one’s desire to live on the Algarve. Not at all. Or the advisability of golf.

  16. A little research turns up Tim’s part of the world not only has a lot of golf courses….but a considerable number of trans hookers.

    Me too. The Bois de Boulogne has a golf course.

  17. Owen Jones sez:

    Why should lesbians, gays and bisexuals stand together with trans people? “Because we get beaten up by the same people!”

    That doesn’t narrow it down. My teenage neice could beat up Owen Jones. Not sure how she’d fare against a burly man called “Barbara” though.

    Stonewall’s belated but extremely welcome embrace of trans rights is therefore a historic moment for the LGBT movement

    Yes. I can imagine how that came about.

    “Well, we’ve won. Bugger! That means we’ll have to shut down Stonewall and find real jobs! Unless…”

    the organisation’s work on everything from education to the workplace to guidance will be made trans inclusive.

    Just what our kiddies need. Who cares if they can read or write? As long as they know the correct pronouns to use when addressing a deranged ladyboy, we’ll be sound as a three bob note.

    “The most important thing about recognition by Stonewall is that people will take us seriously, and our concerns seriously,” Kaveney says. “It gives us more clout, and shows trans people are worthy of respect.”

    “Take us seriously!”, demand wibbling lunatics.

    Transphobia is not confined to knuckle-dragging bigots; it contaminates the thinking of some progressives. A recent article objects to an ideology whose “core … is the assertion ‘trans women are women’.” There was a “discussion to be had” over whether trans people are “a social category”, but “trans women are not, by definition, biological females.” This was published in the New Statesman, a left-of-centre publication. It is my firm belief that in generations to come we will look back at such commentary as we do now on discussions of women, gays and black people in the magazines of the 1950s.

    Pointing out the realities of chromosomes will be regarded in the same light as wanting blacks to sit at the back of the bus?

    And we know where these sentiments all lead.

    To the gas chambers? Crucifixion? Trannygeddon?

    In Florida, the Republican state representative Frank Artiles is advocating legislation that would compel trans people to use toilets assigned to their original “biological sex”.

    Holy Crying Game, Batman! A local politician in Florida wants to stop men using the ladies room? It’s worse than we thought!

    What does that mean in practice? “If you can’t use the right toilet, you can’t function in society,” Kaveney points out. “You can’t have a job, you can’t have an education.”

    Or… you could use the right toilet. Or even the disabled toilet. But don’t let facts get in the way of a good tranny cry.

    There are all too many trans causes to champion. Trans people are murdered for who they are: more than 200 were killed across the world last year, with deaths ranging from stoning to being beaten to being burned alive.

    200 across the entire world, in an entire year eh? Meh. Tell it to the Christians being slaughtered in Lybia.

    And then there is mental distress. One survey last year found that a staggering 48% of young trans people had attempted suicide, and 59% had at least considered it.

    Transsexualism is a severe mental illness that is closely correlated with suicidal ideation.

    A 2013 study in the US found that trans people are far more likely to suffer from poverty and unemployment, and research in Britain has uncovered similar findings.

    Being a tranny is bad for you in every way that can be measured.

    These are all damning indictments of a transphobic society.

    Nope. They’re damning indictments of pasty-faced little twats like Owen Jones who want to encourage people to indulge trannies in their self-destructive delusions rather than help them cope as normal, functioning members of society.

  18. bloke (not) in spain

    @TimN
    “Me too. The Bois de Boulogne has a golf course.”

    I didn’t know there was a golf course, as well. Things you learn!

  19. SMFS – I think that the Left is running out of angry people who are plausibly suffering. They need the Oppressed to live on, like zombies need brains.

    Zackly. Stonewall is desperately casting around for new victims to champion because Stonewall has won.

    There’s no Section 28. Gay marriage and gay adoption are legal. The NHS pays for artificial insemination of lesbians. Openly gay people serve in Parliament and the armed forces. The media is positively homophilic. Schools are teaching kids about bum sex.

    So what to do, if you’re a big fake charity raking in taxpayers’ cash? Declare victory and go home? Or hastily find a new bandwagon?

    Johnnydub – it’s Stevella, you cisgendered oppressor!

  20. My personal opinion is that Trans people are mentally ill and require therapy. The medical profession doesn’t indulge the fantasies of schizophrenics so why treat those of trans people as true?

    Oh, how wonderful to be diagnosed by a professional. You are a professional, aren’t you? Or are you just another know-nothing gobshite on teh interwebs?

    No, I’m not mentally ill and no, I don’t need therapy. I don’t need Stonewall looking out for me either.That’s the last thing I want or need. Nor am I a part of some LGBTQ “community”. And I need friends like Owen fucking Jones like I need a hole in the head.

    Transsexualism is a severe mental illness that is closely correlated with suicidal ideation.

    No, it isn’t. I’m perfectly well balanced, thank-you very much – another cod psychiatrist making pronouncements about people he’s never met and knows nothing about. Given that you clearly have issues about this and are repeatedly and tediously vocal about it, maybe it’s not me who is in need of therapy.

    No one is entirely sure why gender identity does what it does – one theory being hormonal imbalance during gestation. Either way, the outcome is that gender isn’t binary, which is why we have feminine men and butch women. Those of us further along the line than most are not ill, don’t need therapy and don’t need you telling us what we are.

    Being a tranny is bad for you in every way that can be measured.

    No, it isn’t. You are confusing your subjective opinion with fact.

  21. Longrider – No, it isn’t.

    Yes it is. That’s why so many trannies kill themselves.

    I’m perfectly well balanced, thank-you very much

    Good.

    – another cod psychiatrist making pronouncements about people he’s never met and knows nothing about.

    I saw The Crying Game AND Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

    But I don’t need to be a film fan or a head doctor to know that wanting to turn your meat sword into a flapjack is sign of mental problems.

    C’mon!

    Given that you clearly have issues about this and are repeatedly and tediously vocal about it, maybe it’s not me who is in need of therapy.

    I’m already on crazy pills.

    I’m repeatedly and tediously vocal about this because it’s madness. We’re being asked to play along with the harmful and dangerous delusions of a tiny minority. They want to inject gender madness into schools, for Pete Burns’ sake. What that means in practice is crazy bullshit this:

    “Don’t use phrases such as ‘boys and girls” […] Always ask yourself, ‘Will this configuration create a gendered space?’”

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/09/gender-inclusive-school-district-says-drop-boys-and-girls-call-kids-purple/

    Down with this sort of thing.

  22. Hold on a moment, think we’ve two different meanings of trans here. One is transvestite, the other transgender. Better not to get confused between the two.

  23. Tim – think we’ve two different meanings of trans here. One is transvestite, the other transgender.

    Yes. Me and Owen Jones are talking about transsexuals.

    As far as I’m aware, transvestites are mostly normal heterosexual blokes who don’t have any more mental problems than the average person.

    Better not to get confused between the two.

    It’s difficult not to get confused though, when people who identify as “trans*” insist that “women” with penises are women:

    “Many trans women have reclaimed the notions around their penises and recognize them as a feminine part of them.”

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/respectfully-loving-trans-women/

    This wouldn’t be of any concern except to them and their therapists, if it wasn’t for the fact that they want to make “trans” issues everybody’s problem.

    They even threatened to murder Peter Tatchell:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/peter-tatchell-twitter-mob-who-vowed-kill-me-over-mary-beard-transgender-letter-have-it-all-wrong-1488351

  24. Tim, quite right. I’m transgender. It doesn’t mean I want to transition, though (a lifetime of HRT, loss of fertility and sexual function? No, thanks). And I most certainly am not mentally ill, despite the half-arsed amateur psychoanalysts here suggesting that I am.

    Steve; bollocks. Keep taking the crazy pills. Although, between you and I, they don’t appear to be working 😉

    Yes it is. That’s why so many trannies kill themselves.

    And most of us don’t. Anyone who believes in surveys that have no idea of the actual number of the population they are measuring might just as well believe in sky fairies. After all, the latest ,i>”research” suggests that men are more likely to commit suicide. Better stop being a man, then, as that must surely be a sign of mental illness that can be cured…

    Down with this sort of thing.

    I agree entirely. Don’t blame me for it, though, nor others like me for the behaviour of a vocal minority and leftists like Owen Jones with an agenda.

  25. bloke (not) in spain

    Well done for pointing out the difference, Tim.
    Because here’s a thing.
    I don’t have any problem with transexuals. In the same way as I don’t have a problem with gays (except the persistently hopeful) bi-sexuals, fetishists, BDSM fans or any of the other flavours of life’s diversity. But I do have a problem with transvestites.
    But then, none of the other lot are trying to fool me what they are. I know a couple of T-girls & they make no secret they’re blokes with a rack. i know quite a few women who’s rack was on credit card, so what’s the problem. Body mods is body mods.
    Trouble is, TVs are mislabeled goods. Fair enough if it’s just a bloke likes wearing frocks. But not “I dress as a woman. i should be treated as a woman.” Sorry, but how i treat someone is my decision & not to be required by the person being treated. If you’re a bloke trying to go around kidding people you’re a bird it’s deception.

  26. Hmmm, crossover there. Trans can mean a range of people. Transvestite usually means a heterosexual male who doesn’t feel female, but enjoys the dressing. At the extreme end transgender involves gender dysphoria – someone who really, really hates the body they were born with and feels an overwhelming urge to change it. There are degrees though. I have always felt out of phase and that I should have been born female. But I don’t want to transition.I am not mentally ill. I do not need therapy. When the urge takes me a nice dress, pair of heels and lippy and a night out on the town is all the therapy I need.

  27. If you’re a bloke trying to go around kidding people you’re a bird it’s deception.

    Unless they are coming on to you, which, given that most TVs are heterosexual, they won’t be, what’s it to you? Live and let live.

  28. bloke (not) in spain

    “Unless they are coming on to you, which, given that most TVs are heterosexual, they won’t be, what’s it to you?”

    The same way as I’d feel about someone trying to kid me they’re racing driver or airline pilot ’cause they’re wearing the hat. They’re lying.

  29. bloke (not) in spain

    And don’t get me wrong. I’ve absolutely no objection what clothes & slap you want to put on. just don’t expect the illusion to be consensual.

  30. No one is trying to kid you of anything because it’s none of your concern. Unlike the airline pilot flying you to Spain,which is very much your concern. So that’s a non sequitur.

  31. bloke (not) in spain

    No. That is the point. If I’m being expected to treat the bloke as if he’s an airline pilot there’s a whole subscript which includes getting in the left hand seat of an Airbus.

  32. bloke (not) in spain

    “I don’t need your consent.”
    Yes you do. To be treated, by me, as a woman you do. You ain’t got it. Whether others do might depend on whether they’re information light.

  33. To quote the distinguished Dr. Paul R. McHugh:

    “’Sex change’ is biologically impossible,” said McHugh. “People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.”

  34. BiS – if you think your consent is even relevant, you have ideas way above your station.

    JohhnyDub, strawman. I never said anything of the sort. I simply and accurately stated that you have no business trying to diagnose me because you are not qualified. And, frankly, neither is Dr McHugh without having met me and conducted an investigative session. He, at least, being a professional, which you are patently not, would recognise that. Professional psychiatrists are not in the habit of conducting diagnosis of people they’ve never met over the internet So, yeah, you’re just another know-nothing gobshite. And I am not mentally ill.

  35. Longrider – the crazy pills work great.

    It’s like basking in mental sunshine in pill form. God bless those boffins in the pharmaceutical companies.

    They have some side effects though. If I forget to take them, I can become very irritable for no reason.

    I was watching TV once and, when I started thinking about stalking each presenter in a deadly game of cat and mouse, I realised it was time to switch off Loose Women and take my medication.

    And most of us don’t. Anyone who believes in surveys that have no idea of the actual number of the population they are measuring might just as well believe in sky fairies. After all, the latest ,i>”research” suggests that men are more likely to commit suicide. Better stop being a man, then, as that must surely be a sign of mental illness that can be cured…

    Well, men *are* more likely to kill themselves than women.

    And, according to a mental health charity, about half of young transsexuals have attempted suicide:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/19/young-transgender-suicide-attempts-survey

    I think their figures may be inflated, but they’re not making this up out of whole cloth.

    Similar observations are made in America:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28/local/la-me-ln-suicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

    Don’t blame me for it, though, nor others like me for the behaviour of a vocal minority and leftists like Owen Jones with an agenda.

    Indeed. Owen Jones and other lefties didn’t give a fuck about trannies 5 or 10 years ago. Their crocodile tears now are only because they’ve stunningly, comprehensively won the culture wars over homosexuality.

    But homosexuality was only ever a bloody shirt to the Proggies. Their real goal remains epater la bourgeoisie. Being progressive means permanent discontent and unrelenting destructive critique of Western society.

    Can’t use homosexuals for that purpose any more, so they’ve moved on to transsexuals.

    Another thing – “transgender”, as a political category, is bullshit. There is no single thing as “transgender”. It’s an awkward cut-n-shut of people who like crosdressing, people who want to get radical surgery to look like the opposite sex, people who are simply confused and don’t feel like they fit in with normal social expectations, and all sorts of combinations thereof.

  36. Let me apologise for the snark.

    However you are not by your own admission someone who doesn’t want to undergo surgical mutilation; I would therefore state you don’t fall within the group of which I speak. Maybe my understanding of the definitions is wrong, but I thought Transexuals want to undertake the surgical journey. You behave as a transvestite, which is entirely your business.

    I appreciate there’s a spectrum on this, and my opinion is that people who do want surgery have expressed a desire which by Dr McHugh’s assessment is an expression of mental illness.

  37. I have a lot of respect for Tatchell.

    Gay Rights has changed. I remember, in fact, sitting in a gay bar talking about this back in the 1990s; that there was an entryism occurring and many ordinary gays were unhappy about it. The people like Ben Summerskill moving in producing a kind of corporate gayness. The pooves and bulldykes getting shoved to the back of the Pride marches so that nice middle class slightly gays could walk at the front.

    I don’t agree with Tatchell’s politics, but he was on the front line when gay was still unfashionable, the State was still persecuting rather than defending gays (though arguably they have just switched to locking up poofters as paedos. Discuss). He has not, like the Summerskills, made a nice cosy corporate career and overstuffed bank balance out of his activism.

    Most of you probably don’t know the name Michael Boothe. He was an actor. I worked with him on a show (he was understudy on Blithe Spirit at the Vaudeville). He was a sweet man. On our West End theatre Live Aid run, he did a music hall act in Golden Square. For a couple of hours, Soho’s peep show industry came to a halt as we all ran the world, and every lap around Golden Square, there was Michael doing his act and collecting more donations.

    Later, Michael Boothe was savagely beaten to death for being gay. His murder (unsolved to this day) was one of the triggers for the formation of the original Stonewall by a small number of gays including Tatchell. It was time to bring an end to the State that still gave a nod and wink to gay bashers, as pretty police toured pubs trying to entrap harmless gays under the ridiiculous gross indecency law and arrested men for kissing each other. It was not the state-corporatist monstrosity it has become under the Summerskills who moved in once there was a nice cosy Establishment career on offer.

    I’m no doubt in a minority here, but Tatchell deserves respect, I think.

  38. As to transexuality, as I said in another thread, there simply isn’t enough information to decide whether or not it is congenital, and anyone saying they know for sure either way is projecting.

  39. Another thing – “transgender”, as a political category, is bullshit. There is no single thing as “transgender”. It’s an awkward cut-n-shut of people who like crosdressing, people who want to get radical surgery to look like the opposite sex, people who are simply confused and don’t feel like they fit in with normal social expectations, and all sorts of combinations thereof.

    Well, yeah and being well into this spectrum, even I get confused sometimes. I’ve tried to explain where I fit. I’m not transvestite because I have always felt strongly female. Just not enough to want surgery. I am not alone by any means.

    And, according to a mental health charity, about half of young transsexuals have attempted suicide:

    And herein lies the problem. Half of what? What about those who are not out and are not measured? I’ve spent a lifetime living with this and never once thought about topping myself because of it. These surveys are inherently unreliable. I’d take ’em with a large dose of salt.

    JohhnnyDub, fair enough. The reason I don’t want surgery is precisely because of what McHugh says. I really, really wish I’d been born female, but I’m not and can’t change it. I can, however, satisfy that part of my personality by dressing up every so often and hitting the town with like minded folk. We have a lot of fun. And on McHugh, there are those who vigorously disagree with his assessment – his is but one voice on the matter in his profession. Being transgender is no more curable with therapy than being homosexual – and, no, the god botherers can’t cure it. There’s something else going on here that we do not fully understand. Labelling it as a mental illness is too simplistic. Hence my irritation.

    Further to B(n)iS’s point about consent – I don’t ask anything of others than politeness when I’m out and about, so consent is an irrelevance. As someone who is frequently referred to as “madam” when not dressed, what people call me is of no consequence. Although when they do, I usually enjoy the subsequent double-take.

  40. JuliaM – poor Peter! He wasn’t even criticising the trannies. His sin was to take the side of the radfems, who have been steadily losing control over the feminist agenda to “women” with deep voices and big hands.

    That was enough to earn him a fatwa from the faux-female Falange.

    They even got the Vagina Monologues, which is basically the feminist version of the Passion Play – but with lady-parts – banned from some universities because it’s not inclusive to “women” with penises:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/16/holyoke-is-too-pc-for-vagina-monologues.html

    Consider what an incredible achievement it is to make Peter Tatchell seem like a level-headed moderate.

    They even went after the perhaps unfortunately named professor Mary Beard:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/transgender-activists-target-peter-tatchell-and-mary-beard-after-free-speech-letter-10050155.html

    Mary Beard is a lovely girl who is full of interesting facts about ancient Rome. If it wasn’t for her, I would be unaware that Pompeii in its pomp “smelled like shit”.

    Her tormentors include this chap, a prominent Lib Dem LGBTOMG nuisance who calls himself Sarah Brown:

    http://s216.photobucket.com/user/rserven/media/auntysarah_zps7332f44b.jpg.html

    I’m thinking of starting a Campaign for Real Women.

  41. It’s an arms race. If you inhabit a world of progressivism, where denunciation is a tool of the trade, if you want to stay top dog you can’t stick with the old, boring stuff which was in last year. You have to expand, stake out new territory, while simultaneously branding your former comrades on the old, last year’s ground as toxic.

    Keep the buggers on their toes, keep them guessing. Bask in the adulation of the Masses (alright, Guardian readers) for your new dangerous and BRAVE new stance.

  42. Tatchell was, no doubt, needed in his time.

    But when his time had passed, he rapidly became determined to not go gentle into that rainbow retirement, but instead write 9/11 conspiracy theories for the ‘Guardian’.

    And that, I won’t forgive.

  43. So Much for Subtlety

    JuliaM – “But when his time had passed, he rapidly became determined to not go gentle into that rainbow retirement, but instead write 9/11 conspiracy theories for the ‘Guardian’.”

    Tatchell began his career campaigning to bring Pol Pot to power. That is why he fled his native Australia – which was fighting in Vietnam – for the UK. He came to avoid the chance of being called up and so he could campaign for totalitarianism in Indochina. He then spent the next decade supporting pretty much every Communist regime on the planet – he is famous for taking part in PR events in Cuba and East Germany.

    He was and is a c*nt of the first order. A c*nt’s c*nt. He may have been right on Gay liberation, although I don’t think so, but that is beside the point. Stalin might have been right on Fascism. Doesn’t make the rest of his life go away.

  44. I’m just going to say that I’m the fossilised neanderthal sniggering through the relevant bits of the Equality and Diversity training.

    And I agree with SMFS that Tatchell, despite some of what he has done, is still a shit stain on the conscience of humanity. Although every one of my queer friends disagrees. They are wrong of course.

    Anyway, I currently have a part time gig being pimped to one of the big Indian outsourcers. Their CBT is cringeworthingly hilarious. Come Monday, I’m going to have to seek out their QUILTBAG training manual. They work in California. They will have one.

    If I survive the experience, I will report back.

    Oh, and as I’m on the record here as working with a post-op trannie “Senior Army Officer”, the first thing she said to me when we met after she started “living the dream” was “Am I that ugly a woman?” My ‘still in shock’ response was “You were a fairly effing ugly bloke! “

  45. I couldn’t give a shit what you wear, who you shag, which bits you have chopped off or pumped up, and I’m about as right wing as they come.

    I do object to my money being abstracted to pay to teach my kids shit about ‘gender’ etc – not because it’s about gender but because I regard it as more important that they learn maths, actual chemistry and biology, and so on.

    The manners stuff, which is what it is, I will deal with.

    I’m not big on the inevitable next step which will be trans bogs in all public buildings – it strikes me as the 21st century of a fat Roman pervert scraping on a violin – and I will vote for anyone brave and sensible enough to suggest that you urinate in the bog appropriate to the bits you were born with.

    Fuck me, this is fin de siècle stuff and no mistake.

  46. Interested

    I get the objections, money and all that, but:

    “and I will vote for anyone brave and sensible enough to suggest that you urinate in the bog appropriate to the bits you were born with”

    OK, I’m being a bit thick here. Unless the intent is to giggle and laugh, why not “the bits they currently have”?

    Otherwise you’re telling what (on a good day) looks like the girl to go and take a leak in the gents?

    Someone else suggested the same as yourself here – hence I’ve clearly missed something?

  47. @PF yep I only said “suggest”, and I only said that because people are bound to get asked the question.

    If the answer was “whichever one you like” or your own option that would be fine.

    Anything but “something must be done” and money must be spent basically.

  48. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “Just markets. Brazil is one of the centers of sex tourism. Like Bangkok.”

    Is it markets? Or which comes first, the horse or the man in the squirrel suit? Bangkok is a centre of sex tourism and Jakarta is not. Why not? The women of Indonesia are not less pretty. OK, the US Air Force may have something to do with it, but I expect that the sex tourism follows the young girls, not the other way around. Brazil was known for the women of the Carnival before it became known for much else.

    “Or, to an extent, the city I live in in Southern Spain. (pop 70K) Where we have a hooker/civilian ratio a couple of orders of magnitude greater than London. Amongst them being at least 5 trans to my knowledge. And one of them has told me the punters are almost exclusively non-resident.
    We also have three golf courses.”

    I would buy the idea that the punters were non-resident if it wasn’t for the fact that Latino Trans prostitutes are now big business across southern Europe. They are huge, if you will forgive the expression, in Italy. I guess it is because sticking it up someone’s ar$e does not have the same moral shame that it does in the north of Europe. See Ronaldo.

  49. So Much for Subtlety

    Longrider – “I really, really wish I’d been born female, but I’m not and can’t change it.”

    And you don’t think that objective people, of good faith and good intention, might read that and think something has gone wrong with your life or your childhood or something that amounts to mental illness?

    “And on McHugh, there are those who vigorously disagree with his assessment – his is but one voice on the matter in his profession.”

    His was the mainstream voice in his profession before people like Peter Tatchell started physically assaulting doctors and forced them to remove homosexuality from the DSM. It wasn’t a medical decision.

    “Being transgender is no more curable with therapy than being homosexual – and, no, the god botherers can’t cure it.”

    Curable is an interesting concept. But I think that we should move away from a binary concept of hetero- or homo- sexual. People vary. One of the ways in which they vary is that perfectly heterosexual people some times decide that they like sex with men – and occasionally call themselves Gay. Some time perfectly homosexual people decide that they like sex with women or a man and some times they go on to call themselves heterosexual. Some times they call themselves lesbians who only has sex with men as in the case of a colleague’s friend. It is an interesting and complicated world. But it does suggest that homosexuality may be curable in the strict sense.

    “There’s something else going on here that we do not fully understand. Labelling it as a mental illness is too simplistic. Hence my irritation.”

    We do not understand a lot of things, like schitzophrenia. Why shouldn’t we label that a mental illness? Does being trans make people happy? By and large no, it doesn’t. So why not call it a disorder?

    Or take the example of Dennis Avner. Who was distinctly unusual in that he felt that he should have been born a tiger. Is it unreasonable to call this a mental illness too?

    “I don’t ask anything of others than politeness when I’m out and about, so consent is an irrelevance.”

    But the Trans community as a whole has very different views on that subject. There are a number of them working hard to jail people even. I am happy to extend all the politeness in the world. But only to people who are not lobbying for laws to throw me in jail for expressing my opinion – bigoted or not.

  50. bloke (not) in spain

    “To be fair, it’s just a practice area in the middle of the hippodrome.”
    Thanx Tim, but tit was the golf I found surprising.

  51. Well, SMFS, that’s the interesting question. How do you decide what is a mental illness? How do you even define one? Sometimes it’s clear that a physical malfunction in the brain is occurring- but that’s more of a brain illness than a mental illness.

    And how then do we characterise such problems? A man is hearing voices in his head. Is he “mad”? Is he suffering a “delusion”? As an engineer, I’m inclined to wonder if it’s just crosstalk between circuits.

    Once you’re into “believing strange things that do not appear to be true”… well, as an atheist I could argue that most of the world’s population are delusional. They believe in Gods that clearly are not there. Should we attempt to cure them rather than indulge them? Is allowing churches, temples and shrines just pandering to a madness?

    And then there’s the Keynesian economics believers. Mad as a box of frogs.

    Bit tricky really.

    As I have said several times; the problem is this with transexuality. We just do not know what causes it. It might be a “mental” illness. It might indeed be a congenital wiring error- a brain wired to believe it is female, in a body that developed male- or vice versa. If we are hardwired male or female, it is certainly plausible that the wrong wiring could be formed in the delicate process of development of the foetus. We cannot simply dismiss it.

  52. And you don’t think that objective people, of good faith and good intention, might read that and think something has gone wrong with your life or your childhood or something that amounts to mental illness?

    If they do, they merely expose their own ignorance. My childhood was fine, thank-you very much. I repeat, I am not mentally ill. Gender is not binary, which (and I repeat myself, but it seems necessary) is why we have butch women and feminine men. It’s perfectly natural. What isn’t is the politics of identity that’s sprung up and which I abhor.

    Does being trans make people happy? By and large no, it doesn’t.

    How would you know? How many do you know (I suspect I know more than you do and we are perfectly happy and well adjusted once we came to terms with it)? And even if you do, how do you know? Many are still very much in the closet. I was for fifty years and no one knew so how could anyone have made such a judgement? A colleague of mine once remarked that I see the world from two perspectives. I see this as a gift, not a curse. I would rather be feminine than be alpha male. So, yes, it makes me happy.

    So why not call it a disorder?

    Because it isn’t. Unless you are some sort of Neanderthal who believes that gender is strictly binary and that God can cure gays, when it isn’t and he can’t. It is perfectly natural and has been occurring for millennia.

    But some Trans people have very different views on that subject. There are a number of them working hard to jail people even.

    There, corrected that for you. I refute the “community” bollocks as this is a weapon used by the leftists who would use people like me for their own ends. A pox on all of them. It’s a bit like expecting all black people to support Labour. We are individuals not a homogeneous mass.

    As I have said several times; the problem is this with transexuality. We just do not know what causes it. It might be a “mental” illness. It might indeed be a congenital wiring error- a brain wired to believe it is female, in a body that developed male- or vice versa. If we are hardwired male or female, it is certainly plausible that the wrong wiring could be formed in the delicate process of development of the foetus. We cannot simply dismiss it.

    This.

    Unfortunately we have a number of cod psychiatrists here who think that they know better than I do about me. I am not mentally ill, I do not need treatment and I certainly am not in need of any medication. I suspect, strongly, that my brain is hard wired. I live with it. I indulge it from time to time.

    I am what I am. I like what I am and I accept it. I suggest others do likewise without trying to label me or psychoanalyse me.

  53. @Longrider

    To repeat myself, I couldn’t care less what you wear and what you do as long as it doesn’t hurt me or my family (or, if we’re being sanctimonious, any others).

    However:

    “Gender is not binary, which (and I repeat myself, but it seems necessary) is why we have butch women and feminine men.”

    This doesn’t make any sense.

    Butch women are still women.
    Feminine men are still men.

  54. bloke (not) in spain

    ” I guess it is because sticking it up someone’s ar$e does not have the same moral shame that it does in the north of Europe. ”
    Oh your prejudices, prejudices, SMfS. Where do you get them from?
    The truth is, you could draw a line across across Europe that put the Latins on one side & the Germanics/Scandos & Slavs on the other & use exactly that taste to differentiate. For you look at markets. Where northern working girls largely offer the service & their southern cousins much more rarely. Less market for it & reluctance to supply the market
    Or, to put it another way: The Greeks don’t do Greek..

  55. So, some Trans people want to persecute others for having fairly mainstream opinions, and some want to whine their way to a nice public sector sinecure, often using a hideous version of English in the process.

    It’s not just Trans people that do this.

  56. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “How do you decide what is a mental illness? How do you even define one? Sometimes it’s clear that a physical malfunction in the brain is occurring- but that’s more of a brain illness than a mental illness.”

    That is an excellent question. How do we define it? I think we have allowed too much self-harm myself, but who knows? As long as people are not unhappy and are mostly functioning well – and they pose no risk to others or even themselves – then we can ignore it.

    “And how then do we characterise such problems? A man is hearing voices in his head. Is he “mad”? Is he suffering a “delusion”? As an engineer, I’m inclined to wonder if it’s just crosstalk between circuits.”

    But isn’t crosstalk between circuits the basic definition of madness? We don’t have a problem with people who hear voices in their head but people who credit voices in their head. Someone who heard voices in their head and just recognised them as such would not be insane.

    “Once you’re into “believing strange things that do not appear to be true”… well, as an atheist I could argue that most of the world’s population are delusional. They believe in Gods that clearly are not there. Should we attempt to cure them rather than indulge them? Is allowing churches, temples and shrines just pandering to a madness?”

    I am not sure that is evidence of insanity. Because for most people there is evidence they are there. You may not find it credible but many people do. People are not all that irrational. Besides, we have a limit for rational behaviour. We need the irrational. Suppress one sort – religion for instance – and you get astrology and feminism instead. No nett improvement in rationality or human welfare.

    “If we are hardwired male or female, it is certainly plausible that the wrong wiring could be formed in the delicate process of development of the foetus. We cannot simply dismiss it.”

    It is plausible but that is still an illness. Something we might theoretically fix.

  57. bloke (not) in spain

    “I am not sure that is evidence of insanity. (belief in gods) Because for most people there is evidence they are there.”
    Consensual, cultural delusion?
    Given contemporary understanding of how the world works but no pre-existing paradigm of religion, would anyone posit the existence of a divinity to explain anything? It seems unlikely.

  58. I think the Squeer community (people of either or any intermediate gender who feel they are really squirrels) are in need of a champion. Could Stonewall get involved?

  59. And back on topic, gender (sex actually, let’s not be American prudes) is pretty much binary, it’s just that there are at least four different things we are measuring here.

    You have your genetic sex, you are either XX (female) or XY (male). Exceptions are rare but do occur – chimeras, various non-lethal chromosomal abnormality.

    You have your genital sex. Most people are unambiguously male or female in terms of dangly bits. Again, exceptions are rare but do occur.

    You have your, for want of a better term, “mental sex”, for most people this is identical to their genital sex. The exceptions may feel like they are, or want to be, or would prefer, to be a woman/man despite having dangly bits and/or chromosomes that are telling the world a different story. The extent to which this is a mental disorder, lifestyle choice, or deep-seated feeling in an otherwise well-balanced individual will vary considerably from individual to individual.

    And fourthly (no doubt there are other axes we can measure sex on) you have your “environmental sex”, which is the clothes you wear, hormones you take (or not), outward image you attempt to project. And again, most people fit neatly into one of the two categories, in that you can identify most people as male or female identity pretty quickly.

  60. Regardless of the psychological/philosophical ins and outs we clearly need a Cuntry Code to resolve practical matters.

    1 Round up all leftists involved regardless of what particular side they are on. Beat the shit out of them on masse and throw their unconscious bodies into convenient skips. That will take most of the heat and venom out of these situations.

    2. Kids get to hear nothing about all of this crazy crap. They deserve a childhood not time in an anteroom next door to sexual hell. They should not even get sex education until puberty is looming. As for paedo-panic and all the rest–don’t care. The old “watch out for strange men” will have to do. Even if the strange men look like strange women.

    3- Toilets–If you have a dick and piss through it–you use the gents. If you are committed enough to have your dick lopped off you deserve to use the ladies but–and a big one–not if you look like Desperate Dan in drag. If you are a ladyboy such that you are a (fill in the beautiful women of your choice) lookalike then you should have no problem going into the ladies (esp as women use cubicles–as far as I know) anyway–but you can understand even ordinary women–not hate-filled femmis–being nervous at seeing a line of be-skirted Nosher Powell lookalikes waiting outside their toilet.

    4-Proper professional labelling–if you are a trans “sex worker” then you must properly label what you are. A sizeable amount of violence against trans undoubtedly occurs when they successfully present themselves as women until the peak of the evening arrives. Without condoning violence–self control being the mark of an English gentleman–one can understand a certain amount of annoyance when a chap finds out that his paid girlfriend de jour has a dick or a codged up, medically-manufactured meringue. As for private assignations–where truth is a rare commodity under any circumstances–well perhaps some kind of super sniffer can be developed that can read the molecules on the air and tell if the entity before you has a real working vagina. Green light/red light etc.

    We can all get along without the argybargy–so long as the leftists are kept down.

  61. This doesn’t make any sense.

    Sigh… You are confusing gender with biological sex. Gender is not binary, it’s a spectrum. Also, given that we have inter-sex people, arguably neither is biological sex. So, yes, I am making perfect sense.

    It is plausible but that is still an illness. Something we might theoretically fix.

    No, it is not an illness. It is a naturally occurring phenomenon and it does not need curing any more than homosexuality does. People are varied and diverse. A great deal of us do not fit easily into the little boxes you appear to ascribe to us (nor would I want to). Not fitting your labels does not make us ill.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

    David Reimer was some pretty conclusive evidence that gender is hard-wired and not learned or a consequence of nurture.

  62. Mr Ecks – They didn’t have any sex education when I was at school. Didn’t do me any harm, I figured it out soon enough.

  63. David Reimer was some pretty conclusive evidence that gender is hard-wired and not learned or a consequence of nurture.

    But, as you said above, that was (biological) sex, not gender.

    And, given the huge variety of humanity, one person is not “pretty conclusive evidence”.

  64. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “Consensual, cultural delusion? Given contemporary understanding of how the world works but no pre-existing paradigm of religion, would anyone posit the existence of a divinity to explain anything? It seems unlikely.”

    Given the contemporary understanding of how the world work, but a declining pre-existing paradigm, people have voted for how they think the world works and Shirley McLean’s friend from Atlantis has won. People just cannot stand sizable amounts of rationality. You destroy the Christians and you just get worse irrationality.

    I assume it is because we evolved to find patterns. If we saw some crushed grass and a bent stick, we evolved to put two and two together and presume a mammoth we could cut off at the pass. We see the sun, the moon, the seasons and we posit God. Or a God. Or several Gods. We still do the same thing. We see the complex economy in trouble and we assume a Jewish plot. Or a capitalist plot. Or a Jewish Capitalist plot.

    We have no rational basis for a lot of what we believe. We see women and Blacks don’t get promoted. We assume a massive plot. There is no evidence for it, but it must be there. Because, irrationality. We had that irrationality nice corralled and controlled. But the end of Christianity means that it is now ranging free and wide – and killing vastly more people than the Churches ever did.

  65. So Much for Subtlety

    Longrider – “You are confusing gender with biological sex. Gender is not binary, it’s a spectrum. Also, given that we have inter-sex people, arguably neither is biological sex. So, yes, I am making perfect sense.”

    You are assuming gender exists. There is no reason to think it does. There is sex. And that is about it. We do not have inter-sex people.

    “No, it is not an illness. It is a naturally occurring phenomenon and it does not need curing any more than homosexuality does. People are varied and diverse. A great deal of us do not fit easily into the little boxes you appear to ascribe to us (nor would I want to). Not fitting your labels does not make us ill.”

    Schizophrenia is naturally occurring. So is cancer. We can’t cure them particularly well but that is no reason to stop. A great deal of us? You mean virtually nobody? None of these alphabet soup communities amount to a particularly significant percentage. Not even Gays.

    “David Reimer was some pretty conclusive evidence that gender is hard-wired and not learned or a consequence of nurture.”

    DR cuts both ways, so to speak. It showed that his sex was not malleable. It showed that sex or gender was not a social construct. It did not show that if you cut off a man’s testicles and give him hormones and tell him his entire life he is a girl, he become a girl. That looks like a blow for my side, not for your’s.

  66. So Much for Subtlety

    Bloke in Germany – “You have your, for want of a better term, “mental sex”, for most people this is identical to their genital sex. The exceptions may feel like they are, or want to be, or would prefer, to be a woman/man despite having dangly bits and/or chromosomes that are telling the world a different story. The extent to which this is a mental disorder, lifestyle choice, or deep-seated feeling in an otherwise well-balanced individual will vary considerably from individual to individual.”

    So do you accept the proposition that Dennis Avner was in fact a tiger?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

  67. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “Oh your prejudices, prejudices, SMfS. Where do you get them from?”

    I doubt I have said anything that is not absolutely mainstream. Prejudices they may be but they are massively well documented prejudices. I just don’t think you have bothered to understand before replying.

    “Where northern working girls largely offer the service & their southern cousins much more rarely. Less market for it & reluctance to supply the market”

    That is utterly irrelevant. What I said is that in northern Europe we despise homosexuals for engaging in sex with other men. In southern Europe, they despise the passive partner for allowing other men to penetrate him. Thus we get the extreme example of the Egyptian police raping Gays in an effort to punish them for being Gay.

    This Italians really do seem taken by Latino transvestite prostitutes, presumably because having sex with them is not unmanly. Hence Ronaldo’s completely relaxed attitude about being busted with a transsexual prostitute – as compare to, say, Eddie Murphy.

    “Or, to put it another way: The Greeks don’t do Greek..”

    I suspect that not a single Gay person who has been to Greece would agree with that.

  68. @SMFS, there do seem to be, in links from your link, an awful lot of grown adults who like dressing up in costumes of various small furry things.

  69. So Much for Subtlety

    Bloke in Germany – “there do seem to be, in links from your link, an awful lot of grown adults who like dressing up in costumes of various small furry things.”

    So …. is that a “yes” you do think Dennis Avner is a tiger or a “no” you don’t think Dennis Avner is a tiger?

    (as for the furries, what is interesting about them is that they did not exist before some crime programme with a sound track by the Who invented them. Go back a decade and no one enjoyed sex dressed as a small furry thing)

  70. SMFS:“as for the furries, what is interesting about them is that they did not exist before some crime programme with a sound track by the Who invented them. “

    Ummm, no. ‘CSI’ just aint that inventive! They did indeed exists, it merely brought them to mainstream attention.

  71. Mr Eck: “4 – Proper professional labelling–if you are a trans “sex worker” then you must properly label what you are. A sizeable amount of violence against trans undoubtedly occurs when they successfully present themselves as women until the peak of the evening arrives. Without condoning violence–self control being the mark of an English gentleman–one can understand a certain amount of annoyance when a chap finds out that his paid girlfriend de jour has a dick or a codged up, medically-manufactured meringue. “

    Interesting point. Didn’t the left-wing press & rabid feminist nutters get up a huge stink about an undercover cop ‘not being who he pretended to be’?

    Where do they stand on this, I wonder..?

  72. bloke (not) in spain

    @SMfS
    “That is utterly irrelevant….”
    No it bloody isn’t. You said ” I guess it is because sticking it up someone’s ar$e does not have the same moral shame that it does in the north of Europe. ”
    You really don’t understand Latino/Catholic culture, do you?.You try & find yourself a hooker on some saints days, for a start. Just because they’re easier going about paid for sex & age of consent doesn’t mean they live in a moral vacuum. It’s a different morality. Different attitudes There’s quite lot of things northerners regard quite lightly are distinct no-gos. It doesn’t, now, have that much to do with religion. But it’s still part of the culture.
    ” In southern Europe, they despise the passive partner for allowing other men to penetrate him.”
    I don’t know what to say about that. Really. Beyond me. Your kink, not mine.
    Gyppos?
    Look, I don’t know what maps you use, but I’ve got Egypt on the southern shore of the Med on mine. Not Europe, you follow?
    You don’t think it mightn’t be easier to connect with a rental TV in the south because you can pick one out of your local paper, like you can girls. Try the classifieds in surinenglish.com the Brit language version of Andalucia’s daily as the espanol might defeat you. Like you wouldn’t have any problems finding yourself one in Holland or Germany.
    Or that Latinos tend to make more convincing Latinas because putting tits & a skirt on a Mediterranean lad doesn’t make him look quite so Vicky Pollard as a boy from Brum. A talent shared by Thais.

  73. @Longrider: “No, it is not an illness. It is a naturally occurring phenomenon and it does not need curing any more than homosexuality does. People are varied and diverse.

    Thank you, Longrider, for your honesty on this thread.

  74. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “No it bloody isn’t. You said ” I guess it is because sticking it up someone’s ar$e does not have the same moral shame that it does in the north of Europe. ””

    OK. I could have specified the sex of the passive partner. I assumed that was obvious from context.

    “You try & find yourself a hooker on some saints days, for a start.”

    Sorry but what has that got to do with the relative shame of passive homosexual anal intercourse?

    “Just because they’re easier going about paid for sex & age of consent doesn’t mean they live in a moral vacuum.”

    No. It is because they live in a moral vacuum that they live in a moral vacuum. And to be fair, it is not even that they live in a moral vacuum. It is partly because they want to show they aggressively reject Christianity, as in France, or that what really counts is how good they look, as in Italy.

    “I don’t know what to say about that. Really. Beyond me. Your kink, not mine.”

    And yet you are replying when you have nothing to say on the subject discussed.

    “Or that Latinos tend to make more convincing Latinas because putting tits & a skirt on a Mediterranean lad doesn’t make him look quite so Vicky Pollard as a boy from Brum. A talent shared by Thais.”

    Does that work for Brazilians? Maybe. I have not seen a convincing European or African trans. Thais? Sure. Maybe it is time to apply to the government for funding to do some research. It would probably get waved through.

  75. bloke (not) in spain

    “No. It is because they live in a moral vacuum that they live in a moral vacuum.”
    SMfS
    I haven’t chosen to live in the sunny south & can’t wait to be able to get away from this stinking northern island, just because of the weather.
    I quite enjoy being able to go out of an evening without being jostled by staggering groups of staggering drunks & skidding in pools of vomit. Until the Brit holidaymakers arrive, anyway. I enjoy looking at women who can dress attractive without looking sluts. Same conditional.
    It’s nice being in a country where the children are well behaved & don’t treat a restaurant & other diners as an adventure playground. To their parents’ apparent approval. Until, of course..
    It’s great to be able to leave a bike outside a shop without having to lock the wheels to the frame & the ensemble to a lamp-post. Mostly I don’t bother locking it at all. Even when I forgot it & it was left all night.
    It’s good to see the elderly treated as respected members of the family & community & not battery farmed in care homes or left to freeze unwanted.
    I find it interesting that most of the more novel sexual activities are referred to by english names. Spanish not having the words.
    I cannot think of anywhere I would hesitate to walk unaccompanied, at any time of the day or night. Nor can my girl friend.
    Regrettably, though, it’s possible I might not be staying there long. I’m seriously considering joining her ladyship in her home town. Medellin, Colombia. After all, it’s safer than London.

  76. Pingback: Just a Sweet Transvestite…, | Longrider

  77. Have just read through every comment in the thread. How wonderful to read comments, well thought out, a few bollocks aside, and suitably injected with humour. Warms this devilishly handsome, blond and increasingly cynical old Saxon. Perhaps I should come here more often. Wad ya think?

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