We will not surrender; they cannot kill all of us.

Bravo!

Hear Hear!

69 thoughts on “We will not surrender; they cannot kill all of us.”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    I hate to be a constant downer about this but we will surrender. We have already conceded the basic principle – Britain will jail you for saying the wrong thing about the wrong people. This is simply a dispute about which groups ought to get special treatment – that is, Muslims want to be protected for their religion, not just their skin colour.

    And yes, they can kill everyone who objects. They have already intimidated most Western media into censoring these pictures.

    On the other hand, the article on Mandela is interesting:

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9116391/the-mandela-files/

  2. A somebody pointed out elsewhere, this meeting would probably have been shut down in the UK before any shooting was necessary. The generals surrendered long ago, the poor fellas in the conference are just soldiers in a remote outpost who haven’t gotten word yet.

  3. SMFS – Britain will jail you for saying the wrong thing about the wrong people

    Yarp. So it’s stunningly myopic of our current metropolitan establishment to assume that they will get to define what are the “wrong things” and who the “wrong people” are, in perpetuity.

    Illiberal laws can be enforced in either direction. A more practical, survival minded generation of Brits and Europeans will find that those who intended to replace us with murderous, illiterate goat-herders have created a framework of legislation that can be easily redrafted to put multiculturalists, open borders fanatics, and critical race theorists in jail.

    All for the interests of public order, of course.

    I’d much prefer liberty, but nobody listens to me. So I might as well buy some Waitrose Heston Blumenthal sweet & salty popcorn.

    I’ll sign a petition for Amnesty or something when a geriatric Tony Blair is stuck in the Tower of London.

  4. I’ve just seen the headline in the Independent:

    Copenhagen shootings: Police shoot dead man they believe was responsible for two deadly attacks

    Bloody hell! Zombie Jihadis!

  5. bloke (not) in spain

    Wholeheartedly agree with SMFS.
    But it’s worth pointing out who’s done the surrendering & to who.
    Don’t point your finger at UK Gov. The sort of restrictions on freedom & liberty that have been imposed are the sort of things any government would welcome. Government is about control, which governments will seek to maximise. Issues like this are what governments use to justify control. So the balance between liberty & security is decided by how much liberty the citizen concedes in pursuit of security. And the concession is to you’re own government, not the terrorist. So, if you’re not happy with the balance, it’s them you’ve surrendered to.

  6. “Government is about control, which governments will seek to maximise. Issues like this are what governments use to justify control. So the balance between liberty & security is decided by how much liberty the citizen concedes in pursuit of security. And the concession is to your own government, not the terrorist. So, if you’re not happy with the balance, it’s them you’ve surrendered to.”

    Absolutely spot on.

  7. There are quite a few people I know who are ready, willing and able to go and kill these guys in the industrial numbers required. Unfortunately there would be some innocent deaths too so it can’t be allowed. One day the leash will have to be slipped – it’s just a question of how many Euro/US non combatants have to die first.

  8. Steve: We don’t need to jail them. Just sack them without a penny compensation, confiscate their pensions (even if they be–in the vein of cops in action movies–“5 days from retirement”) and blackball them from whatever “profession” they might have. Mouthy lawdogs or medical hacks who think puritan tyranny is cool–all out and banned from ever again working their trade. That’ll do the job nicely.

  9. bloke (not) in spain

    Go where Interested?
    The London bombers were British, the Hebdo killers French & the Danish guy’ll probably turn out to be Danish.
    What you’re actually advocating is genocide on European soil.
    Not saying that’s something to be necessarily opposed. Just to point out where we stand.

  10. Yeah, can’t disagree with the tenor of this thread. The chances of being blown away by some savage are comparatively remote. The chances of having your life destroyed by some white idiot quisling who’s obsessed by racism are much higher.

  11. Chants of ‘no surrender’? Yeah, we’ve never heard those before from a ravening mob of hooligans and skinheads.

  12. Interested

    “One day the leash will have to be slipped”

    It may appear so, unless perhaps either a) Islam can somehow fast track the kind of enlightenment that “the west” took centuries to undertake, or b) that same western Judeo-Christian heritage ultimately intends quite fully to capitulate?

    Charlie Suet

    “chances of being blown away by some savage are comparatively remote.”

    I agree, but isn’t this more importantly to do with the direction we are taking and will continue to (courtesy of birth rates and all that)?

  13. What’s your point, Dave? That those who believe in “no surrender to the Islamicist Raving Arseholes (IRA)” are obviously bigots and therefore should not be listened to, better to come to an accord with the religion of peace and let them win? Because Islam is certainly one of the least bigoted cults you can find, it doesn’t hang homosexuals or push them from towers, it believes in equality of the sexes, it believes that all people should be free to practice their religion without being beheaded, shot or blown to smithereens.

  14. bloke (not) in spain

    “Chants of ‘no surrender’? Yeah, we’ve never heard those before from a ravening mob of hooligans and skinheads.”

    Can you enlighten us, Dave, on which ravening mobs of hooligans and skinheads? Unless you’re referring to the anti-foxhunting mob or the anti-fracking mob or the Occupy Movement or …. Thing is, it’s so difficult to actually recall any other hooligans & skinheads ravening, apart from the tonsorialy challenged left.

  15. PF,

    Islam cannot undergo an enlightenment because you have to be the dumbest fucks on the planet to think that pedomo actually spoke to the archangel Gabriel and received the words of god. That is the problem we face, Muslims are as thick as pig shit and their cult is complete and utter bollocks. There is no wriggle room, either you accept the clear logic that pedomo was a fraud or you revere the bastard. We need to deal with the reality that Muslims insist on believing the unbelievable and that even the supposedly moderate ones consider death a reasonable punishment for dissing their prophet.

  16. @ DocBud

    I wasn’t actually making a value judgement as to the likelihood of either a) or b)…;)

    I was – how do I put this – trying to be rational?

  17. Kipling said it all…

    “The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind”

  18. If Kipling had it right, then so too did Enoch Powell. Powell, he foretold of the clash of cultures, he had a sense of awful foreboding drawn from observations, life and experience on the Subcontinent.
    Evidently as Powell alluded to, for the western people’s and tradition and as most men and women instinctively sense [PEGIDA]. That, the creed of death – is inimical to the west in all facets of its political and cultural ideology; there is no moderate path, no ‘in between’, no happy medium nor, accommodation to be had, it is either all or nothing.

  19. Islam cannot undergo an enlightenment because you have to be the dumbest fucks on the planet to think that pedomo actually spoke to the archangel Gabriel and received the words of god.

    On the other hand believing that an itinerant carpenter’s son who had a brief preaching career and did some conjuring tricks actually is the supreme being and creator of the universe, that’s entirely rational.

  20. Anyway, at this point in history, this kind of violence is inevitably a consequence of, and proportionate to the quantity of, the presence of Islam in a society. The surrender occurs when you let them in. Any brave words after that are too late.

    There are many forms that Islam could potentially take, like Christianity. But this is the form it has at the moment.

  21. In the UK we HAVE surrendered. The meeting – timed to remember a death threat against a British citizen was in Denmark. Sadly the Muslims have won. Maybe when they lose in Denmark we will get courage again.

  22. @” Ian B
    Islam cannot undergo an enlightenment because you have to be the dumbest fucks on the planet to think that pedomo actually spoke to the archangel Gabriel and received the words of god.

    On the other hand believing that an itinerant carpenter’s son who had a brief preaching career and did some conjuring tricks actually is the supreme being and creator of the universe, that’s entirely rational.

    The difference between Christianity and Islam is very simple. Jesus didn’t kill anyone Mo did.
    Good followers of Jesus can only kill people after some very difficult rationalization. Mo’s followers can very easily – because he did.
    The other difference of course was that Mo liked 9 year old girls and so therefore under Sharia – pedophilia is fine!!!

  23. Surely the issue is that the west (unlike Islam) has mostly moved on from all that sky fairy guff?

    And those that haven’t (moved on) are generally now a lot more relaxed about the rest of us heathens freely living amongst them.

    Ie, we did do the enlightenment bit? It’s not really got anything to do with carpenters’ sons or advanced vodoo?

    “There are many forms that Islam could potentially take, like Christianity. But this is the form it has at the moment.”

    Ignore our own idiot PC problems for a second, this is what we are really intrested in. Do they (Islam) or don’t they? Yes, then maybe not looking so bad. No, perhaps the wise money will be on what Interested said above (in that capitulating doesn’t really sound too promising)?

  24. Yes, we have moved on. But that is a different point to the idea that Islam cannot be anything else. You could have said the same about Christianity 500 years ago.

    For instance, there is a nice story from sleepy Dorchester which, about 400 years ago, was a Puritan heartland. At one point, they caught a Catholic priest and, of course, executed him. The botched execution too about half an hour– and then the mob proceeded to play football. With his head. Who would have had much hope for that kind of society turning into a moderate, sane and secular one?

    Of course, this brings me back to my argument that it never did, and the latest form of our “sharia” is political correctness.

  25. I agree with Interested: at some point our society will be driven to put its internal enemies to the sword (or whatever). The timing will be influenced by the almost inevitable nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran, since whoever wins the Muslim homelands will be greatly weakened (Israel has about 400 thermonuclear warheads).

  26. @”Ian B
    February 15, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    The Bible is jam packed with God’s chosen killing competitors. Discuss.
    “Well if you read the Bible/Koran more you would know that both say that Jesus/Mo are models to follow.
    e.g.
    ” I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

    John 13v15
    e.g. Koran
    68:4 And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.

    Therefore the relevant comparison is between Jesus and Mo – sadly assuming that Ali was lying the most accurate followers of Mo today are the Islamic static (if not it is Iran).
    Mo burnt people to death like the Islamic do (funny the media forgot to mention that).

  27. @”With his head. Who would have had much hope for that kind of society turning into a moderate, sane and secular one?”
    If of course they had taken the view that anyone who leaves Christianity should be killed then of course it would never have changed.

  28. They did. You could be executed just for disagreeing with the interpretation of the Bible. Islam is basically the same as the other two Abrahamics- but it’s still pre-reformation.

    The Reformation, by the way, was not intended to create a moderate, diverse and ultimately secularised Christendom. That was an accident of all the falling out. It was a fundamentalist movement- like Islamism- and rather violent- like Islamism- and the Protestants were certain that they were absolutely right about everything- like Islamism. It’s just long enough ago that we can look back on it somewhat benignly, and because it’s our ancestors, more comfortably.

    Plus, the murder technology was much more basic then.

  29. Bloke in North Dorset

    @BNiS
    “The London bombers were British, the Hebdo killers French & the Danish guy’ll probably turn out to be Danish.”

    They may have the passports and even been born in those countries, but culturally they are not of those countries.

    @PF
    “It may appear so, unless perhaps either a) Islam can somehow fast track the kind of enlightenment that “the west” took centuries to undertake, or b) that same western Judeo-Christian heritage ultimately intends quite fully to capitulate?”

    I used t think that an enlightenment was the solution but the more I listen to even so called moderate Muslims I don’t think it can ever happen. Islam means submission and they are expected to be submissive and unquestioning. Furthermore, there’s no real hierarchy that can speak on behalf of a majority, even if one can be found amongst all the sects. No equivalent of the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury. Every time any significant amount of Muslims move towards an enlightenment they will be denounced by a large number of nutcases who claim the true faith and violence will descend.

    Its like having a large and significant bunch of Christians who want to live with a literal translation of the old testament, but worse. There’s no appeasing these sorts of bigots.

  30. Islam is basically the same as the other two Abrahamics- but it’s still pre-reformation.

    But the relevant target is not the Reformation (about which you are correct.) It is the Enlightenment. Which separated (mostly) church and state and (almost completely) science and religion.

    There were significant pre-Enlightment tensions between the church and the state (to do with taxation, churchmen’s immunity to state trials and the Pope’s claim to secular supremacy over mere kings.) Western science was already disagreeing with church interpretations of reality.

    Now, Islam claims to be the ultimate embodiment of church and state – so that’s going to be a difficult one to sell. As for science, well, despite them preserving a little more of Greek science (albeit it is quite possible that they destroyed what was left of the Library of Alexandria in 642AD.) That the Caliphs tolerated some exploration of science is no indication that their modern wannabe successors have any interest in educating men past being able to read the Koran.

  31. @”They did. You could be executed just for disagreeing with the interpretation of the Bible. Islam is basically the same as the other two Abrahamics- but it’s still pre-reformation.”
    But Jesus never said “If anyone changes his religion kill him”.
    A reformation cannot change the fundamentals of a religion – all the reformation did was get rid of evil bits added to Christianity – all of Islam is evil you get rid of the evil and what is left? Nothing.

  32. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “Yes, we have moved on. But that is a different point to the idea that Islam cannot be anything else. You could have said the same about Christianity 500 years ago.”

    Intolerance always wins out over tolerance in the end. The pagans were a lot more tolerant than the Abrahamic religions and pretty soon there will be no animists left anywhere on the planet. Buddhists are more tolerant than Muslims and so have been losing ground to them for a long time. The Muslims were not stopped by a pagan society. They were stopped by Christian Spain and Charlemange.

    The West’s rejection of Christianity will not long survive. The only question is what sort of intolerance suits us best. You can have an Islamic Europe or you can have a persecuting Christian Europe. What you cannot have for long is a secular Europe. You rejected Christianity. Fine. You get to live in a Muslim country.

  33. What you cannot have for long is a secular Europe.

    No, what you cannot have for long is a happy, fluffy, lefty Europe where ‘we all just get along’ and sing kumbaya together around a camp fire. The idea that secular Europeans are going to start believing in sky fairies again is just silly.

    My guess is that secular Europeans will keep ignoring the problem until they can ignore it no longer, then there’ll be open civil war.

  34. So Much for Subtlety

    Edward M. Grant – “The idea that secular Europeans are going to start believing in sky fairies again is just silly.”

    Well I don’t know. I expect that in the end all the male Europeans will be killed, their women taken by people who do believe in sky fairies and the children of said marriages will believe as well.

    But I think you underestimate how many Europeans do sort of believe. Although our culture shames them for saying so. But also “secular” is a bit of a cop out. Because we got rid of Christianity and replaced them with the even less tolerant Communism and Fascism. It has only been the sterling efforts of the Americans, with their naive belief in God and all, that has stopped us Europeans sending half the population of Europe up the chimney as our intellectuals want to do.

  35. bloke (not) in spain

    Strange how a bunch of people generally ill disposed to the EU are talking about “Europe” as if all Europeans are the same.
    As I mentioned above, it’s not governments surrender it’s people. And different people in Europe are responding in different ways to Islam. Some quite robustly: The French, the Germans (but, of course they’ve previous), Greeks, Italians, the Finns. The Eastern Europeans hadn’t stopped.
    If you’re looking for a white flag being waved rigorously, try that island off the North West coast. But like I’ve said often before: They don’t come much more craven than a Brit.

    ~

  36. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “And different people in Europe are responding in different ways to Islam. Some quite robustly: The French”

    Well the French government declined to invite the National Front to the Charlie Hebdo memorial. But they did invite the terror-funding Emir of Qatar or wherever. Perhaps that is the government and not the people?

    “the Germans (but, of course they’ve previous)”

    The Germans elected Merkel who described protests over Islamification as vile. They have silently allowed parts of their country to slow become part of Turkey.

    “Greeks”

    The Greeks have just elected a government with a long track record of supporting Islamists and other Arab groups against the West.

    “Italians”

    Hard to imagine there is anything to say about the Italians.

    “the Finns.”

    Who have embraced the wholesale transformation of their society through multiculturalism and immigration from the Third World.

    “The Eastern Europeans hadn’t stopped.”

    There have been some mild responses from the Czechs.

    “If you’re looking for a white flag being waved rigorously, try that island off the North West coast. But like I’ve said often before: They don’t come much more craven than a Brit.”

    Britain has been copying Europe in this craven surrender. Our laws are copies of their laws. Because our elite has the same contempt for ordinary people theirs do too.

    At some point there is an identification between the people and the idiots they elect. It is not strong but it is there – and people like Hollande were elected.

  37. As I mentioned above, it’s not governments surrender it’s people.

    What choice do the people have? In the UK, they can vote Labour, LibDim or Tories, and all will adopt pretty much the same policies. Just look at the latest suicide pact on ‘Climate Change,’ signed by all three.

    It’s the political class surrendering, not the people. They’re too busy working to go rioting in the streets.

  38. The idea that secular Europeans are going to start believing in sky fairies again is just silly.

    My guess is that secular Europeans will keep ignoring the problem until they can ignore it no longer, then there’ll be open civil war.

    Well I don’t know. I expect that in the end all the male Europeans will be killed, their women taken by people who do believe in sky fairies and the children of said marriages will believe as well.

    Whether Edward is right or not (about civil war), this is not going to happen!

  39. “Just look at the latest suicide pact on ‘Climate Change,’ signed by all three”

    Yep, idiots and cretins all of them!

  40. When the Serbs stood up against the Muslim terrorist KLA, we bombed them and rewarded the ethnic Albanians for their years of ethnically cleansing Serbs in Kosovo by giving it to them.

  41. bloke (not) in spain

    @Mr Grant
    “It’s the political class surrendering, not the people. They’re too busy working to go rioting in the streets.”

    Well, precisely. Let nothing disturb their comfortable lives.
    But surprisingly enough, populations are not made up entirely of middle class office workers with an overwhelming stake in the status quo. It’s the others matter. Yes they voted Hollande. And now they’re voting Marine. They tend to do less ideology & more anger.
    To my knowledge, there’s never been a revolutionary movement of bank clerks.

  42. So Much for Subtlety

    bloke (not) in spain – “You haven’t the slightest idea what’s going on in Europe, have you?”

    You mean apart from the rape of schoolgirls? Not much.

    PF – “Whether Edward is right or not (about civil war), this is not going to happen!”

    He is probably right about the civil war. It is actually going on at the moment. Just on a very low scale. There are already areas in every European country where the police and White people cannot go. The French police got shot at by an AK-47 the other day somewhere down south. Not to worry though. They determined it was just routine violence.

    It is happening. As we speak. As the girls of Rotherham.

    bloke (not) in spain – “Yes they voted Hollande. And now they’re voting Marine.”

    And the French “Deep State” will make sure the FN will not win. While all the time the governments of Europe are working to make sure they cannot be removed from office by angry voters by replacing them with Somalis and the Congolese.

  43. He is probably right about the civil war. It is actually going on at the moment. Just on a very low scale. There are already areas in every European country where the police and White people cannot go. The French police got shot at by an AK-47 the other day somewhere down south. Not to worry though. They determined it was just routine violence.

    It is happening. As we speak. As the girls of Rotherham.

    But you said:

    Well I don’t know. I expect that in the end all the male Europeans will be killed, their women taken by people who do believe in sky fairies and the children of said marriages will believe as well.

    This is not going to happen.

    And, if this even vaguely looked likely , Edward would be right – and you, SMFS, would not be idly twiddling your thumbs..;) …(imvho)

  44. JuliaM – and you’d think zombie jihadis would have the decency to only eat halal.

    Hypocrites.

    Why did zombie Mohammed cross the road?

    He was looking for weeeannnss!*

    *(joke only works in a Glasgow accent, but I think everything sounds funnier in Glasgwegian, so I make no apologies)

    Interesting exchange of views above.

    Ian B raises some good points, but we have the Islam we have. We don’t have 400 years to wait in the hope they’ll evolve.

    Our long term choices – barring some miraculous Islamic Enlightenment – look to be crystallising around a ternary set: convert, die, or expel.

    The other choice, the one our present elites are intent on, isn’t a choice at all. It’s merely can-kicking, noble lying, and wishful thinking.

    I don’t think SMFS’s argument that we must choose either some sort of Cromwellian, stone-the-sinners Christianity or Islam is right, though it’s true our baby-shy postmodernist culture won’t endure in its current form, because a culture that fails to reproduce has built-in obsolescence.

    Turns out the Pope and all those other repressed fuddy duddies were right about the Pill and abortion. Who knew, eh? We’ve tested the sexual revolution to destruction and only caught STD’s for our trouble.

    Only a fool makes predictions about the future, so I can confidently say that the collapse of the Western European welfare state will prove to be the straw that broke the jihadi girlfriend’s back.

    We’ll stop having workshy medieval religious fanatics in our midst when we stop paying people in our midst to be workshy medieval religious fanatics.

    We’ll stop choking off the birthrates of our own indigenous working and middle classes when we stop punitively taxing them to support people who don’t feel like working for a living, and stop screwing them through house prices.

    At heart I’m an optimist (isn’t every parent?). I sure as hell am grateful to be alive today rather than around the time of the battles of Tours or Vienna or Lepanto. The flower of Islamic martial power couldn’t conquer Europe. A bunch of illiterate moochers on the dole sure aren’t gonna.

    The near future is probably going to be tougher in some ways than the Golden Age we enjoyed towards the end of the 20th century, but that’s no reason to despair.

    There’s no reason to despair while you still have breath in you.

    If the Lord of the Rings taught us anything, it’s that the Men of the West always pull something out of the hat to save the day. That Tolkien chap was on to something. He was quite clever for a guy who went to Oxford.

  45. bloke (not) in spain

    “There are already areas in every European country where the police and White people cannot go.”

    But the difference is, in France there’s places blacks & the Maghrébins (collective impolite for Muslims) can’t go. You watch the police running them out of the better parts of cities at gun-point, you see the difference between the France & the UK. When push comes to shove, the French police aren’t impartial, whatever the politicians pretend.

  46. Tony Blair, zealous Christian. Gordon Brown, Christian. The Labour Party itself, predicated on Christian socialism (hence the old “methodist party” label). All fanatical imposers of ideological multiculturalism. You don’t have a very good argument, SMFS.

    It gets to be an even worse argument when you trace the history back to the 16th century and realise the thread that created the modern Progressives started with the reforming Protestants- “[Puritans are] the hotter form of Protestant” to quote a much quoted Elizabethan pamphlet- who, unhappy at the Church’s insufficiently rapid change (particularly under Laud) decided to use “the word and the sword” as they put it to force change through. Their search for new sins that displease the Lord has led, in the post-war period, to their wallowing in the new sin of racism (as well as sexism, homophobia, insufficient ecological sensitivity and so on) which has led us to this pretty pass.

    I can think of many irreligious, “secular” type people who would happily have stopped the Islamic influx a very long time ago. It is the religious impulse that has kept the flood gates open.

  47. So Much for Subtlety

    Steve – “I don’t think SMFS’s argument that we must choose either some sort of Cromwellian, stone-the-sinners Christianity or Islam is right, though it’s true our baby-shy postmodernist culture won’t endure in its current form, because a culture that fails to reproduce has built-in obsolescence.”

    I don’t think it is a choice either. You either believe or you don’t. We don’t. That was a collective choice. We, as a civilisation, had the choice to use every organ of the government, every media outlet, to lie, demean and debase Christianity, or we could have chosen not to. We, or our elites, chose to do so. They continue to lie about Christians – child abuse is a much bigger problem in State schools than Catholic ones but you wouldn’t know it to listen to our Betters.

    “Turns out the Pope and all those other repressed fuddy duddies were right about the Pill and abortion. Who knew, eh? We’ve tested the sexual revolution to destruction and only caught STD’s for our trouble.”

    Indeed. Humanae Vitae turns out to be surprisingly accurate in retrospect. We should be honest to admit that. Even if we have no intention of undoing any of the Sixties “reforms”, we should stop pretending you can have a Christian society without Christianity.

    “We’ll stop having workshy medieval religious fanatics in our midst when we stop paying people in our midst to be workshy medieval religious fanatics.”

    Then we will have mildly hard working mediaeval religious fanatics in our midst. Except by then they will not be a minority but a rapidly growing majority.

    “We’ll stop choking off the birthrates of our own indigenous working and middle classes when we stop punitively taxing them to support people who don’t feel like working for a living, and stop screwing them through house prices.”

    Well I think we can agree that ain’t going to happen.

    “The flower of Islamic martial power couldn’t conquer Europe. A bunch of illiterate moochers on the dole sure aren’t gonna.”

    The Byzantine Emperors invited the Turks into Europe. They disappeared under a Turkish Empire. We have invited the Turks into Western Europe. We could defend ourselves against the Arabs because we had a border. We no longer do. We have a large and rapidly growing Muslim population inside Europe. We too will go the way of the Byzantines.

    “That Tolkien chap was on to something. He was quite clever for a guy who went to Oxford.”

    And yet LotR is fiction. Notice that Communism proves my rule. The secular put up no fight against Communism worth mentioning. The Polish workers paraded behind icons of the Virgin and brought Communism down.

  48. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “Tony Blair, zealous Christian. Gordon Brown, Christian. The Labour Party itself, predicated on Christian socialism (hence the old “methodist party” label). All fanatical imposers of ideological multiculturalism.”

    The Labour Party wasn’t a supporter of multiculturalism when it was a Methodist party – and not a Christian socialist one by the way. We would be much better off with the old working class Labour party than the modern self-loathing middle class Labour party we got.

    Blair likes the label of Christian for some reason, but a Christian he is not. Brown was a Communist.

    “It gets to be an even worse argument when you trace the history back to the 16th century and realise the thread that created the modern Progressives started with the reforming Protestants”

    You keep saying this and yet there is still no evidence of it.

    “I can think of many irreligious, “secular” type people who would happily have stopped the Islamic influx a very long time ago. It is the religious impulse that has kept the flood gates open.”

    Can you? Why haven’t they then? I am sure that the secular would like a lot of things. But you don’t go off and spend your life among the lepers in Calcutta unless you believe in God. Only faith pushes people to do irrational things. They will sit in their comfortable living rooms wishing something would be done, but none of them will have the courage to be labeled a racist. Much less to actually achieve anything.

    It is not a religious impulse that keeps the flood gates open although the Churches attitude to refugees is shameful.

  49. SMFS – I think this is the quintessential SMFS quote:

    Well I think we can agree that ain’t going to happen.

    We don’t agree, my friend. We have fundamentally different outlooks on life.

    Don’t take this the wrong way, but if you live on the internet, of course you’re going to have a bleaker view of things than a manic depressive at a Joy Division concert in Skegness.

    We’ve weathered worse storms in the past 75 years alone. And yes – it’s different this time. It’s always different. At least we aren’t living in the days of the Black Death or Nazi bombing or the Bay City Rollers any more.

    We’re not bloody dinosaurs and there’s no asteroid with our name on it. We’re people and we change with the times. So prophesying doom based on current trends is just wrong. Trends change, because people do.

    Unless they just talk themselves into doom and despair – those sorts of prophesies tend to be self-fulfilling.

  50. So Much for Subtlety

    Steve – “We don’t agree, my friend. We have fundamentally different outlooks on life.”

    There is just no way that we are going to let single mothers starve on the street. It really ain’t going to happen. I agree with what you mean and in any other situation I would not object, but we will never roll back the welfare state. Even Thatcher only slowed spending on welfare.

    “Don’t take this the wrong way, but if you live on the internet, of course you’re going to have a bleaker view of things than a manic depressive at a Joy Division concert in Skegness.”

    I don’t take that the wrong way.

    “We’ve weathered worse storms in the past 75 years alone.”

    The conservatives often win the battles but lose the wars. We did defeat Napoleon but his ideas dominated Europe for the next century – the Revolution won the peace. Traditionalists have lost in the long run on every issue ever since. We may have defeated Communism, but as with the French Revolution, the ideas of Stalinism are winning. I don’t like pessimism either but we have to be realistic. We will lose. The only question is how long can we hold out for.

  51. SMFS-

    Can you? Why haven’t they then?

    Why haven’t you? Same reason, the dominance of our polity by evangelical reform movements. The ones who started off stamping out Catholicism and are on the verge of stamping out Europe.

    You keep saying this and yet there is still no evidence of it.

    That depends whether you bother to read a history book and thereby observe the simple fact that the Progressive movements arose out of Christian reformists in the 19th century, whose beliefs in turn came from the hotter sorts of Protestants in the English Reformation.

    Or it might be just a coincidence that there is a wave of moral reformers attempting to expunge all sin from society in the 21st century, and there was a wave of moral reformers attempting to expunge all sin from society in the 19th century, and there was a wave of moral reformers attempting to expunge all sin from society in the 17th century. And if you go with the American Conservative interpretation, you can try to convince yourself that the current wave attempting to abolish all pornography (including simple nudity) and throw people in jail for having casual sex are motivated by an elderly Jewish Marxist who wrote a book recommending the end of sexual repression and the adoption of a “polymorphous perversity”. But you do have to be quite doolally to swallow that one.

  52. But you don’t go off and spend your life among the lepers in Calcutta unless you believe in God.

    The Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, Save the Children are all secular charities.

  53. Who have embraced the wholesale transformation of their society through multiculturalism and immigration from the Third World.

    Not been to Helsinki, have you? One of the most homogeneous places I’ve ever been, *everything* is Finnish. I barely saw a non-Finnish logo, let alone hordes of foreigners. Foreign language speakers make up something like 4.5% of the population, with most of those being Russians and Estonians. I understand a whole load of Somalis have gotten in, but “wholesale transformation”? The bloody language alone would prevent that ever happening. Finland is not Sweden.

  54. So Much for Subtlety

    Ian B – “That depends whether you bother to read a history book and thereby observe the simple fact that the Progressive movements arose out of Christian reformists in the 19th century, whose beliefs in turn came from the hotter sorts of Protestants in the English Reformation.”

    The Progressive movement in the 19th century? Sure. Good people, mostly. Made sure government jobs weren’t handed out as pork. Made the trains run on time. Built libraries in every town. Made the schools work. For some reason the British loathe evangelicals, but there is no denying the massive improvement they made in Western life for all the rest of us.

    But the problem with the Progressive movement has been Entryism. They have been taken over by Marxists. They are the problem. Not the original Progressive movement.

    “Or it might be just a coincidence that there is a wave of moral reformers attempting to expunge all sin from society in the 21st century”

    There isn’t. The modern feminist movement is not even remotely interested in sin. They are interested in class and oppression.

    “you can try to convince yourself that the current wave attempting to abolish all pornography (including simple nudity) and throw people in jail for having casual sex are motivated by an elderly Jewish Marxist who wrote a book recommending the end of sexual repression and the adoption of a “polymorphous perversity”. But you do have to be quite doolally to swallow that one.”

    Well I don’t think it was one elderly Jewish Marxist. More like several. You have to ignore so much that has happened in the West to pass over the Sixties when the Feminists were sex positive. People like Erica Jong were not oddities. They were mainstream. Nor do I think that people hate sin now. They hate men having fun. Not the same thing.

    Again what we have seen is a massive displacement of Evangelicals from the Reform movement as the evangelicals declined and moved to the right. Their place has been taken by immigration communities which hate a lot of the Western tradition and look to Marxism to justify that dislike. Evangelical feminists are not the problem. There are so few of them. Bella Abzug, Susan Brownmiller, Andrea Dworkin, Eve Ensler, Susan Faludi, Shulamith Firestone, Betty Friedan, Erica Jong, Susan Sontag, Gertrude Stein, Gloria Steinem, Naomi Wolf – all these women have one thing in common. Well several things really. Evangelical Christianity is not one of them.

    DocBud – “The Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, Save the Children are all secular charities.”

    Well, Save the Children started out with Christians who wanted broad support. But they are examples of what I mean. What do they do? What do they ask? They just put up some horror porn on the TV from time to time and ask us all to send them money. Which they seem to spend in large part on themselves. And campaigning for Social Justice. The Red Cross is not much better but at least they still remember they were intended to help wounded soldiers and so they still do a bit of that. When not campaigning for Social Justice. Neither spends decades in the slums of Calcutta. MSF is better – which is odd because they were Maoists. But they usually ask people to give them a few months here and there. They have not strayed far off their original course yet but they will. Social Justice beckons.

    If we lost Save the Children would anyone notice? I don’t think so. Much the same is true for the Red Cross although some soldiers would be sad. The poor of the Third World would notice MSF a little. But all that pales in comparison with the Catholic Church which is still the largest single provider of schools and hospitals in the Third World. Nothing any secular group does comes even close.

  55. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Newman – “I understand a whole load of Somalis have gotten in, but “wholesale transformation”? The bloody language alone would prevent that ever happening. Finland is not Sweden.”

    In 1975 the Swedes decided that they wanted to be a multi-cultural society and so began encouraging every Third World poverty stricken peasant to move there. Crime is up something like 400%, while rape is up closer to 1500%. Sweden is now second only to Lesthto when it comes to rape.

    The Finns simply made their decision more recently. They have not yet had time for their lemming-like suicidal jump to have an effect. But it will.

  56. No argument about Sweden. But Finland is a very, very different country inhabited by very, very different people. Multi-cultural it ain’t, and there is no evidence that is about to change in a meaningful way. Shit, even the Russians think the Finns are weird and insular!

  57. Well, Save the Children started out with Christians who wanted broad support. But they are examples of what I mean. What do they do? What do they ask? They just put up some horror porn on the TV from time to time and ask us all to send them money. Which they seem to spend in large part on themselves. And campaigning for Social Justice.

    It’s hard to argue with that…

  58. So Much for Subtlety

    Tim Newman – “No argument about Sweden. But Finland is a very, very different country inhabited by very, very different people. Multi-cultural it ain’t, and there is no evidence that is about to change in a meaningful way. Shit, even the Russians think the Finns are weird and insular!”

    People would have said the same about Britain in the 50s.

    I have not been to Finland for a long time and when I did go, I was a lot more politically correct. But even I was struck by how often every single newspaper and media report was selling the success of some Congolese guy who was now a successful DJ or some Iraqi Kurd who was now studying accounting. There is no denying it – their ruling class is determined to change Finland so changed they will be.

  59. But even I was struck by how often every single newspaper and media report was selling the success of some Congolese guy who was now a successful DJ or some Iraqi Kurd who was now studying accounting.

    Unless you spoke/read Finnish – which I doubt, because it is a fiendishly difficult language unrelated to any other save Hungarian and possibly Estonian – then whatever you were reading would almost certainly have been some minority publication or broadcast aimed at a very limited selection of the population or tourists.

  60. @Tim Newman:

    The Finns I know all give me the impression that the media parrot the multiculti bullshit, but the people don’t believe it.

    There’s also a substantial movement to get rid of mandatory Swedish classes for native Finnish speakers, since the Finnish-speakers see being forced to learn a language that only 5% of the population uses and isn’t much used other than in Sweden is pointless and that the time could be better spent teaching kids English, German, or Russian as their first foreign language. The media/government, of course, disagree vehemently.

  61. @coward – “Sadly the Muslims have won. ” – no, they haven’t.

    For what its worth I don’t think that Islam will survive the onslaught of atheism, and i don’t think the West (as we know it) will survive either.

    What the future will be like i’ve no idea, but it won’t be Islamic.

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