Amusing in South Africa

nathi

Nathi Mthethwa, South Africa’s arts and culture minister, said UCT’s students had raised a valid concern.

“For far too long our heritage landscape has been viewed through the prism of our colonisers and we have got to challenge that,” he said.

It’s not PC to point this out these days but the Bantu groupings (tribes, if you will) are later colonisers of this part of what is now South Africa than the various white groupings are. From Western Cape around to the Fish River (flowing into the Indian Ocean) is an area where the Bantu agricultural package simply doesn’t work. So the expansion from West Africa over the couple of millennia, all the way down Africa, rather stopped at the northern borders of this area. The Hottentots, as they were called back then, were left in possession: until the European agricultural package turned up with the Dutch and English by sea.

Further north, in Natal and so on, yes, fair enough to call the whites the most recent colonisers. And for the Hottentots (now, Bushmen? I Kung!? Forgotten the current PC name, sorry) to call the whites colonisers is also entirely accurate in the Cape. But the Bantu themselves are colonisers and they’re later ones of this area, the Cape than anyone else is.

Just to be accurate here, The Bantu expansion is largely similar to, say, the Celtic one across Europe. Iron Age, with a decent agricultural package (umm, yams, or sweet potatoes, rice, plantains maybe? as opposed to the Celtic wheat and deep ploughing) expended over the generations into new territory. Engulfing the hunter gatherers who previously lived in those regions. Pretty much all of sub-Saharan Africa sans the Ethiopian Highlands (different food package) and the Cape. And it all occurred rather late on. A Gentleman of, say, the Zulu, Tiswana and so on persuasion is no more a native of this area, the Cape, than someone called Cronje is, perhaps less.

Not PC to point all of this out though.

56 thoughts on “Amusing in South Africa”

  1. Not so amusing. For.a.gov’t minister from one racial grouping to feel able to.describe another racial grouping as ‘colonisers’ suggest a.fucked up country.

    How is he different from our blog’s very own Thick.Racist.Prick?

  2. The PC term for Bushman is San.

    This is another worrying development in South Africa and the government seems prepared to use the hotheads to deflect attention away from their ever more increasing failings.

  3. This was not vandalism at least they are putting it in a museum or will sell it. A bit short sited maybe because in 200 years who will be bothered about it (yes I know plenty of places e.g norn iron hold on to historical figures but still…I dont have too much problem with a statue of Agricola or two)

  4. Sighted…arhhh.

    what really he shld be doing is avoiding Rhodes becoming a white only figure.. try a little apprpriation.

  5. The Western Cape, with its different population and politics, its effecient less corrupt administration, better infrastructure and education, and dislike for the ANC, has been unfairly targetted. State institutions are supposed to employ people according to the national not regional population profile. Black Africans only started to arrive in the 80s as economic migrants: a friend, descendant of slaves and Khoisan, raised and educated in Cape Town, specialist in his field, was informed he had the wrong profile to work anywhere except the sticks. The state owned airline no longer flies LHR-CPT direct despite the Cape being the premier tourist destination. The premier of the Western Cape, Helen Zille, previously a strenuous opponent of apartheid, is regularly villified by every cadre from the president down. The Western Cape would do better as an independent country.

  6. Mmusi Maimane, the parliamentary leader of the Democratic Alliance, South Africa’s official opposition, said the statue debate was a “distraction” from the ANC’s failure to improve the lives of the majority of South Africans.

    “That is the real scandal in our country,” he said. “We cannot erase history, and we cannot escape the fact that our heritage is intertwined as South Africans.”

    Seems reasonable. I’ve no idea if the Democratic Alliance is any better than the ANC, but the ANC seems to be mainly interested in stealing anything that isn’t nailed down and distracting the masses with race-trolling.

    Dali Tambo, son of the ANC’s liberation leader Oliver Tambo who oversaw the erection of a new statue of Nelson Mandela outside Pretoria’s Union Buildings, said he was dismayed by the protests.

    “I would like to live in a country with a varied heritage landscape, but it must be dominated by the heritage of the majority;

    I agree. Let’s start by re-naming anything in Britain currently named after Nelson Mandela, and pull down the Mandela statue in Parliament Square. To avoid time and trouble, let’s just call them “Steve Street”, “Steve Place”, etc.

    The statue can be replaced with one of a true British hero: Terry Wogan.

  7. Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS

    There you go again. “Dickhead”, “drunk”, “breakdown”. You really have found your level on this blog haven’t you!

  8. And your comment about Jews last night, really classy.

    Oh don’t tell me, like the Muzzies Jews aren’t a race either are they. So you can’t be a racist can you.

  9. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Not so amusing. For.a.gov’t minister from one racial grouping to feel able to.describe another racial grouping as ‘colonisers’ suggest a.fucked up country.”

    Well it is not so amusing, but he is, of course, right. The Whites of South Africa colonised South Africa. They were not indigenous. This ought to be obvious to everyone. In fact you seem to be the only person denying it. Given that, you know, TW OP is based on the concept that the Bantu were equally colonising.

    So what is it you have against the concept of indigenous?

  10. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Not so amusing. For.a.gov’t minister from one racial grouping to feel able to.describe another racial grouping as ‘colonisers’ suggest a.fucked up country.”

    So just in passing, the PC-thing in Guardian-land is to deny that Cecil Rhodes was, you know, not born in Africa, now?

    The idea that there is another way to look at the world apart from that of the rich, prosperous, democratic, free, developed West is what is depressing. Why don’t they put up a statue to Idi Amin or Mugabe or Mobutu to let the good people of South Africa know what they are in for?

  11. So Much for Subtlety

    Gunker – “This is another worrying development in South Africa and the government seems prepared to use the hotheads to deflect attention away from their ever more increasing failings.”

    Actually it is probably worse than that. The ANC looks to be pushed into this by Julius Malema. I am sure that on the whole the ANC would prefer the White community to stay so they can produce the wealth the ANC is stealing. That means keeping the “African Street” quiet. But Malema can see racial hatred as his path to power. The ANC does not want to be out-demagogued.

    The point being that Africans (African Africans as it were) are buying this nonsense. That is the bad news.

  12. But shurely a bronze statue is essentially black when you look at it?

    So what’s their fucking problem??

    Been reading “Guns germs and steel” Tim?

  13. I ask how he is different from our Thick.Racist.Prick. and our Thick.Racist.Prick. provides the answer: he isn’t.

  14. @Ironbore-the-sexist

    Speaking for myself (only), I don’t know what you mean about comments about ‘Jews’ – I didn’t make any. (I think Jews are generally great. We should have more of them in the UK.)

    I’ve also never used the word ‘muzzies’ – in fact, I think you’re the only person on here I’ve seen do it.

    Re the use of pejorative terms, I think if you look a little further up the comment thread you are the one using the phrase ‘thick racist prick’ (with your characteristic scattering of misplaced.full.stops).

    On this thread (https://www.timworstall.com/2015/04/10/so-there-is-a-libertarian-party-at-this-election-then/#comments) at April 10 8.29am you are describing women as ‘ugly slappers’.

    Classy.

    But it all does tend to suggest that you actually are mentally ill.

    I’m sorry for you, but until you see a doctor and get help it’s your own fault.

    🙂

  15. I like Jews, but I couldn’t eat a whole one.

    Unless it was Natalie Portman.

    Sweet little Natalie, I would ruin that girl.

    Also, Israel is full of hot women. It’s the land of milk and honies. You have to go to France or the Czech Republic to find similar quality in Western Europe. This is why I take the side of Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians: burkas aren’t sexy.

    I’d be tempted to convert to Judaism, but nobody’s taking a knife to my tackle. I doubt they make scalpels in super-jumbo size anyway.

    How did the Jews get into a thread about South Africa?

    Probably used their Jewish media control superpowers to get in, the tricksters.

  16. Careful you pair, lest you become Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS-Steve-Ian B

    He has eyes everywhere – on stalks, swivelling.

    As for Natalie Portman, you must me mad or blind Ian B – possibly you went blind through excessive knob-polishing over images of Ms Portman?

  17. Ian B – it’s sadly true that she’s not 19 any more. Still a knockout though.

    Her Thor co-star, the blouse-popping Kat Dennings, is also a treat for pervy male eyes.

    Damn… think I’ll pop home for lunch and see what the wife’s doing.

  18. I feel a little snubbed at not being in Ironman’s unholy trinity frankly, but it might be he has a special one for people whose views on sex are “odd”, I don’t know.

  19. Thanks for that Steve, I’d never heard of her before. Now I can never unhear of her.

    In terms of blouse-popping superhero babes, though, you can’t beat Captain America’s Hayley Atwell.

  20. Interested – You are very welcome! Careful though. She’s the reason Odin lost an eye, you know.

    I haven’t seen Captain America, but those look like two very good reasons to watch it.

    I do wish we’d get our act together and make a Captain Britain film.

  21. Tim, as a white South African I am begging – begging! – you to stop writing things like this. At the end of apartheid it was agreed that we were going to draw a line under the past, and move forward as a society under the rule of law and as one nation, not a collection of separate tribes. Certain political movements are now trying to undermine that, to put the focus back on race and tribe, as a prelude to an us-vs-them campaign of property appropriation and ‘redistribution’.

    I know it’s fun to point out the hypocrisy and stupidity of the likes of Mthetwa, but when you do it like this you’re playing the game on his terms. “Your lot is just as bad” is an unhelpful remark in the circumstances. The correct response is: “we operate under the rule of law, under which all South Africans are entitled to equal treatment and due process. If you don’t like a statue, write a letter to your local council and start the process of getting hearings where it will be judged on its merits according to agreed-upon standards. You do not take the law into your own hands.”

    The colour of Rhodes’s (or Mthetwa’s) skin should not be relevant to the debate. If we make it relevant, we give ammunition to those seeking radical and bloody “reform”, in the Zimbabwe mould.

  22. Neil

    So, leaving the racist cretins aside, the issue is a minister in your government feels able to refer to his fellow countrymen of a particular racial background as ‘colonisers’. How do you as a white South African feel about that? Is the impression correct? Is that shit acceptable for a public figure in South Africa?

  23. P.S. Neil

    You’ll have noted that Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS thinks it IS OK for him to say it, because he’s basically right. And he’s supported by IanB, who likes underage teenage girls.

  24. Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS
    Why don’t you go back and read what you wrote on “Won’t this piss Ritchie off”
    I know.you have a short attention span, but it was only yesterday.

  25. Neil/Ironman – you do know that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness?

    Which is out of synch for you, as you have exhibted signs 2-6 first.

    😉

  26. The point being that Africans (African Africans as it were) are buying this nonsense. That is the bad news.

    It’s news? Business as usual after a brief hiatus, more like.

    As for Natalie Portman. Yes, definitely. She has brains, probably more than the rest of Hollywood put together. Albeit not enough brains to avoid those Star Wars prequals.

  27. @Ironman

    ‘Neil
    I really am sorry to have dragged you into this crap.’

    🙂

    You really *are* deluded if you think people can’t see through you. Brah.

  28. @Ironman: I don’t believe that Mthethwa *was* referring to part of the SA popultion as colonisers. He was saying that our view of history (or heritage, if you prefer) is from the colonial perspective, which is a different thought entirely. He has a point: The history of South Africa is generally considered to have started in 1652 when Jan van Riebeek arrived in the Cape. This is roughly equivalent to saying that the history of Britain started in 43AD with the arrival of the Romans; we do generally think about things as starting from the time of the first arrival of a literate culture, because before then there was no one to write down what happened. What Mthethwa is trying to say is that we shouldn’t confuse the easily-accessible *recorded* history of South Africa with its *actual* history, which goes back far longer – which of course would make Rhodes a proportionally less significant figure.

    The difference between SA and Britain is that there are no longer any actual Romans wandering around the isle, speaking Latin and generally keeping separate from the rest of the population. The centuries have smoothed out the differences, so no one (except in parts of Scotland and Wales!) is particularly annoyed at the fact that pre-Roman British history is largely ignored. And as a result nobody is seeking to exploit that annoyance to push a radical redistributionist agenda, either. South Africa isn’t there yet, but the way to get there is NOT to engage in tit-for-tat “your culture is just as bad as mine” nonsense. It’s to decide to create a new culture an move on.

    @Interested: First time I’ve ever been accused of being a sock puppet; thanks for that. Can I ask: What exactly is it about my post that would have led you to think I was one?

  29. Ironman, why don’t you like teenage girls? What have you got against them?

    Back with the important stuff, I’m much more in the Hayley Atwell fan club than the Natalie Portman fan club, and I’m praying for another season of Agent Carter.

  30. @Neil/Ironman

    ‘@Interested: First time I’ve ever been accused of being a sock puppet; thanks for that. Can I ask: What exactly is it about my post that would have led you to think I was one?’

    Because you are too thick to do it cleverly.

  31. I’ll take your Hayley Atwell and Natalie Portman, scrumptious as they both are, and raise you a Mila Kunis. Then I’m going to sit down for a bit with my legs crossed.

    As for the original point… Tut, tut, tut that’s terrible… probably.

  32. I’ll also say I have to admire Ironman for managing to fall out with so many people simultaneously. That’s quite a talent there.

  33. Ian B – certainly not the sort to be kicked out of bed for farting, perhaps a flight to Ukraine is in order? Damn you Putin!

  34. “The Western Cape would do better as an independent country.”

    That’s what I thought at the time of the collapse of Apartheid – the white Saffras, endlessly posing as hard bastards but proving feeble in the end, chucked in the towel rather than strike a territorial bargain. I suppose they didn’t want to lose the cheap servants.

  35. So Much for Subtlety

    Neil – “At the end of apartheid it was agreed that we were going to draw a line under the past, and move forward as a society under the rule of law and as one nation, not a collection of separate tribes.”

    That is what they said. But did they mean it? Certainly the SACP Front, the ANC, meant it but in a different way to what you mean. That does not mean the population of South Africa meant it.

    “Certain political movements are now trying to undermine that, to put the focus back on race and tribe, as a prelude to an us-vs-them campaign of property appropriation and ‘redistribution’.”

    Indeed. And highly successful it is likely to be, in its own terms, too. Because the focus has never been off race and tribe among the Black majority. The “former” Communists in the ANC may not like it. The Whites may hope it does not come to pass. But no one has shown that the Black majority has changed their minds.

    Whites have given up on race. They have repented and reformed and promised not to do it again. No one else has. Race remains central to the way the rest of the world operates. It is also very renumerative – as it will be for at least one generation in South Africa as they take everything from the Whites and gives it to Blacks.

    I wish you all luck. But there is no way to stop Black politicians demonising Whites. Most Whites will help them – just look at Ironman. They will get elected. They will get rich. South Africa will become poor. Regardless of what TW says. Saying that there are no innocent victims in this is actually the best way to deal with it. We need to over turn the Guardian consensus that Whites are uniquely evil.

  36. Yep, as we started out saying; South Africa has a black culture minister who is no different to our white Thick.Racist.Prick, Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS

  37. So Much for Subtlety

    Neil – “And as a result nobody is seeking to exploit that annoyance to push a radical redistributionist agenda, either. South Africa isn’t there yet, but the way to get there is NOT to engage in tit-for-tat “your culture is just as bad as mine” nonsense. It’s to decide to create a new culture an move on”

    Actually Scottish independence owes a lot to Braveheart which pushed a total fake version of Scottish racial resentment that the Scots bought into. Discussions of the aristocracy usually get into the Normans pretty quick.

    Look, everything you say is sensible, but it fails the common sense test. This is a Prisoner’s dilemma sort of thing. Good luck giving up on the race thing. But why would any Black do so? Racial resentment is the key to social advancement and wealth. If you accuse a White liberal of racism, he will give you anything. It is always a guaranteed win.

    So it is obvious why you want to move on. Why would anyone else? For racism to go away, we need a series of small steps that makes sense to everyone, each step at a time. Throwing money at people because they cry about racism will only encourage them to find more racism. Which is why racism is not going away. White people are ashamed of it. Everyone else makes careers out of it.

    You need to follow little Janny Coetzee’s example. Make yourself feel better about the Blacks by sh!tting all over your own people, which also builds you a career among liberals across the world, then grab all the cash and run like crazy for another country with a lot fewer Blacks. It is much easier to decry White racism from a nice suburb in a rich country with few Black Africans. He may be gutless, but at least he is realistic.

  38. So Much for Subtlety

    dearieme – “That’s what I thought at the time of the collapse of Apartheid – the white Saffras, endlessly posing as hard bastards but proving feeble in the end, chucked in the towel rather than strike a territorial bargain. I suppose they didn’t want to lose the cheap servants.”

    If the Afrikaners were going to make a go of it on their own, they would hardly pick the Cape would they? There aren’t that many Boers there. It is heavily English. They would want to save the Transvaal.

    But even if they did, can you explain to me please how a country whose economy would wilting under sanctions would be better placed to resist those sanctions with a fraction of the population and none of the mines? What exactly would support the economy of the new smaller independent Cape? Wine growing?

  39. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Yep, as we started out saying; South Africa has a black culture minister who is no different to our white Thick.Racist.Prick, Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS”

    And another sub-literate comment from our resident CiF troll. Apart from agreeing that Rhodes was, you know, not African and South Africa was actually colonised, I don’t see anything that the Minister said that I agree with. What do you think I have said that he would agree with?

    I think I prefer Arnald.

  40. “If the Afrikaners were going to make a go of it on their own, they would hardly pick the Cape would they?” Why not? They’d have to move, but hard bastards can presumably reverse a treck or two. Then they’d own one of the loveliest bits of real estate in the world. Like Southern Spain, but with the seasons reversed and English-speaking. They could make spoke of their livelihood in the same way.

    “They would want to save the Transvaal.” Bastards who are hard and not entirely stupid would work out that holding Transvaal while being surrounded by blacks would be a bit risky. Better, perhaps, to give up the Transvaal and make a living off supplying services to it.

  41. At the end of apartheid it was agreed that we were going to draw a line under the past, and move forward as a society under the rule of law and as one nation, not a collection of separate tribes. Certain political movements are now trying to undermine that, to put the focus back on race and tribe, as a prelude to an us-vs-them campaign of property appropriation and ‘redistribution

    Neil, unfortunately that’s how negotiations were ever thus with the now ruling groups in South Africa and I speak from much some experience from during my university days. You would negotiate in good faith to a compromise position and walk away happy that you had given some and kept some. Until the next manufactured event blew up, and once again negotiation would end up half way from the new starting position and their original position. Rinse repeat and before you knew it, they had got everything they originally demanded.

    Certain political movements are now trying to undermine that, to put the focus back on race and tribe, as a prelude to an us-vs-them campaign of property appropriation and ‘redistribution’.”

    Unfortunately these political movements hold the reigns of power.

  42. Dearie me
    That’s what I thought at the time of the collapse of Apartheid – the white Saffras, endlessly posing as hard bastards but proving feeble in the end, chucked in the towel rather than strike a territorial bargain. I suppose they didn’t want to lose the cheap servants.

    What sort of territorial bargain would have been acceptable to the SWJ of the world (who strangely enough seem to ignore atrocities in Southern African now that apartheid has gone)

    Oddly enough, it wasn’t that much about race. There was a genuine concern that a black majority government would result in a puppet communist government (much of Southern Africa was a hint on what could happen). Once that was no longer a threat, SA pulled out of Angola, gave up SWA/Namibia and announced that they were going to official negotiate with the ANC.

  43. So Much for Subtlety

    dearieme – “Why not? They’d have to move, but hard bastards can presumably reverse a treck or two.”

    Because it is not where their ancestors are buried. It is not where their “sacred” places are. It is not where they live.

    “Bastards who are hard and not entirely stupid would work out that holding Transvaal while being surrounded by blacks would be a bit risky. Better, perhaps, to give up the Transvaal and make a living off supplying services to it.”

    And they did indeed work out that it would be tricky and so did not try it. But then holding the Cape wouldn’t be much better. Why would the ANC stop? How could they supply services to the Transvaal as sanctions would still be in place?

    I stand second to none in my contempt for Nationalist Party politicians, but I don’t see they had much choice here. They could have held out in the face of growing violence from places like Soweto. Or they could have tried to strike the best deal they could get. Which they probably did.

    The question is whether it was good enough. After all the Nationalist Party came to power with a promise of a type of race-based socialism. Their electoral appeal was based on resentment of British South Africans, more than Blacks. So they implemented a type of socialism for Afrikaners. Which worked nicely for poorer Whites – although in fairness it was probably not needed for most Whites as they still hold most of the good jobs. But the Nationalist leadership soon compromised with the English business elite and did not push redistribution too far. After all, they already held all the best land which is what they really wanted. No doubt they hoped the ANC would also see reason.

    So the question is will the ANC also come to terms with the business elite and restrict themselves to milking the cow rather than flaying it alive and flogging the corpse. I would think the ANC’s leaders might but the South African voters will not. Some of them are clearly more sensible. Cyril Ramaphosa, for instance, has gone from a mine union organiser to politics to becoming a billionaire. Nice work if you can get it. When the Marikana workers went on strike – and the first killings were by Ramaphosa’s NUM’s officials – Ramaphosa sided with management, calling the strikers criminals. So far, so typical. But the miners have simply started their own more radical union and the NUM is in decline. They insist on demanding higher wages as unemployment stands at 25% and employment in the mine sector is collapsing.

  44. SMFS –

    I think I prefer Arnald.

    I’m a black, one-legged, lesbian guardianista working for a Diversity NGO. Fron Romania.

    You’re quite the liberal multiculturalist!

  45. So Much for Subtlety

    Arnald – “I’m a black, one-legged, lesbian guardianista working for a Diversity NGO. Fron Romania.”

    Come back. All is forgiven!

    “You’re quite the liberal multiculturalist!”

    Most people don’t understand that about me. But I am.

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