God, there’s yet more of it

Warning “you can’t just hide” from the problem of workplace sexism, Ellen Pao says Silicon Valley must continue to work on the issues brought up in her loss to venture capital-firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers in a much-watched gender-bias trial.

What, like you weren’t sexually discriminated against so get over yourself?

Ms. Pao has returned to her work as interim chief executive of social-media startup Reddit Inc.

Dang, ain’t industry blacklisting of those who speak out fierce?

Ms. Pao, who said she wants to stay long-term as Reddit’s CEO when a one-year interim period ends, said she has removed salary negotiations from the hiring process because studies show women don’t fare as well as men. She has brought in well-known Silicon Valley diversity consultant Freada Kapor Klein to advise the company. And she has passed on hiring candidates who don’t embrace her priority of building a gender-balanced and multiracial team. “We ask people what they think about diversity, and we did weed people out because of that,” she said.

So you’re hiring on the basis of social attitudes? You ever heard of this idea “discrimination”?

39 thoughts on “God, there’s yet more of it”

  1. “hiring on the basis of social attitudes”

    I’m fine with that. I’d never knowingly hire a racist.

  2. Hmmm. To be honest, I would, if I thought he could treble my profits.

    If he was of similar ability to a non racist I might not, but it would have to depend what other foibles the non-racist exhibited.

    All things being equal the non racist would win, but life’s rarely as simple as an Ironman/Luke look-at-me social justice wankfest, sadly.

    When, exactly, did we lose our collective mind to the point that racism became the greatest possible sin?

    I mean, I know we can trace it back to the post holocaust realisation that national socialists are as vicious as international socialists, but given that most leftists still hate Jews as much as they ever did it can’t be that.

  3. If Reddit have any sense they’ll get rid of this lunatic as fast as possible. Bet they don’t though.

  4. I mean, I know we can trace it back to the post holocaust realisation that national socialists are as vicious as international socialists, but given that most leftists still hate Jews as much as they ever did it can’t be that.

    It isn’t that. It’s from the American communist left realising that latching onto the Civil Rights struggle and realising that race could ignite the class war that droning on about the emancipation of the proletariat had failed to achieve.

  5. “I’m fine with that. I’d never knowingly hire a racist.”

    Would that include the non-white ones then?

    I’d hire anyone who did the job and didn’t cause trouble on the time I’d be paying for. Outside of work that is his or her business. Nor would I give a shite what others think.

  6. There’s no such thing as a non-white racist, and Matthew L knows it, so he’s agreeing to do something he knows he’ll never have to do. Only members of oppressor classes can commit the sin of discrimination. That is, in the case of race, whites.

    Also, race does not exist. Believing that race exists is racist. Unless your race is other than white.

  7. >Matthew L

    Any other boxes we have to tick to be hired by you? Islamophilia, militant secularist, health fascist, statist, anti-free speech… and on and on and on….?

    Glad I don’t need a job from you.

  8. Ian B – It isn’t that. It’s from the American communist left realising that latching onto the Civil Rights struggle and realising that race could ignite the class war that droning on about the emancipation of the proletariat had failed to achieve.

    Its not that either. It’s simply a tactic to stop white people in historically white countries complaining that the current rates of immigration will effectively render whites a powerless minority in said historically white countries in 50-100 years – maybe less if you count Sweden & Holland.

  9. Glad she can make a stand in hiring practices. Her competitors must be delighted that she will choose on aspects other than who is best for the job.

  10. Interested,
    “All things being equal the non racist would win, but life’s rarely as simple as an Ironman/Luke look-at-me social justice wankfest, sadly.”

    I don’t actually know what point you’re making. But the joy of this website is the unexpected alliances between opposing views. Ian B (who I suspect would disagree with me on most things) backed me up on something, I forget what.

    Why not join in that broad minded approach, and only criticise my views when I actually express them?

  11. To state the obvious: right now all that matters for Reddit is building base, keeping the servers up, and shipping solid code. ‘Weeding out’ stellar candidates for those jobs is suicidal.

  12. She lost a case about not being in the centre ring of the in.group. Now she wants to ensure that everyone she hires is in the in group 24/7/365.

    Irony is not dead, just taking a nap.
    Hypocrisy is wide awake though.

  13. So Much for Subtlety

    “We ask people what they think about diversity, and we did weed people out because of that,” she said.

    It shows the two faces of “diversity”. It is often claimed that diversity is good in itself – even though there is remarkably little evidence for it. But there is diversity in racial origins and gender. And then there is diversity in opinion and experience. Pao wants the former. But if diversity works, it is the latter type that is beneficial.

    NASA used to be entirely White, but it was made up of people who had only just joined the Agency. They brought a diversity of experience from other walks of life. Now it is much more multicultural but everyone who works there has always worked there. They used to have the good sort of diversity, now they have the pointless sort. Which sort got a man to the Moon?

    Pao simply wants an echo chamber where no one will challenge her purile beliefs. Matt L too by the looks of it. That is not the right sort of diversity.

  14. “Would that include the non-white ones then?”

    Yes.

    Dare you to ask a black candidate if they were racist and then not give them the job.

  15. Well if you want the job now you know what bollocks to spout at the interview.

    And his bit: “she has removed salary negotiations from the hiring process”. How does that work?

  16. NASA used to be entirely White, but it was made up of people who had only just joined the Agency.

    Bullshit.

    For a start, the moon landings might have been under the auspices of NASA, but they were largely carried out by civilian (i.e. non-government contractors) such as North American Aviation / NorthAM Rockwell, Grumman, Bellcom, etc.

    These companies in turn hired the best people for the job, now sure, given the time they were mostly white, college educated folks with STEM degrees, but not all of them were, like Farouk El-Baz (Bellcomm) who was Supervisor of Lunar Science Planning.

    Another example is Dr. Robert Shurney from Tennessee State University, it was Dr. Shurney who designed the tires for the moon buggy used during the Apollo 15 mission.

    Dr. Vance Marchbanks, a heart surgeon and medical specialist for NASA, helped develop ways to monitor astronauts’ vital signs during space flight and was responsible for John Glenn’s health during America’s first orbital flight.

    George Carruthers who built the camera that was carried to the moon on Apollo 16.

    The list goes on.

  17. Perhaps the candidates ‘weeded out’ by diversity queries were those who were too stupid to realise that ‘yes, I love diversity so much that as a white heterosexual male am considering cutting my cock off and wearing a dress to work’ was the right answer.

    More likely they thought ‘I’m not working for this fucking idiot’ and ruled themselves out…

  18. SMFS

    If you have not read it, I’d heartily recommend ‘Creating Equal’ the autobiography of Ward Connerly, the black man who led the campaign against Affirmative Action/ institutionalised race discrimination in California – shows the ruthlessness and intellectual dishonesty of the ‘diversity industry’ in all its gory details – and in the 10 years or so since that was written things have got much worse……

  19. said she has removed salary negotiations from the hiring process because studies show women don’t fare as well as men.

    Firstly, doesn’t this run somewhat against the narrative that women are equally capable as men in every aspect of business? I’d have thought being able to negotiate was pretty important.

    Secondly, who is the judge of whether women fare as well? I’ve found myself working in a position for less money than the chap next to me mainly because our criteria were different: for me, the location was great and so would accept a lower day-rate, whereas he hated the place and would only work for top dollar. I think here we have a CEO who thinks the salary is the only part of the package an employ looks at.

    Time for folk to start unloading reddit stock I think.

  20. Reading this makes one wonders if the lost discrimination case was just strategic on her part: actually setting up the battlefield for her continuing in her current post when the interim period ends. “Hello Reddit, see this big sue-ball? Wouldn’t want that now would we? So just play nicely…”

  21. So Much for Subtlety

    John Galt – “For a start, the moon landings might have been under the auspices of NASA, but they were largely carried out by civilian (i.e. non-government contractors) such as North American Aviation / NorthAM Rockwell, Grumman, Bellcom, etc.”

    Soooooo …. your response is to change the subject? An interesting approach.

    “These companies in turn hired the best people for the job, now sure, given the time they were mostly white, college educated folks with STEM degrees,”

    So basically you agree I was right. But you are still p!ssed anyway. Odd.

    “but not all of them were, like Farouk El-Baz (Bellcomm) who was Supervisor of Lunar Science Planning.”

    So they got a geologist from Egypt. I am not sure what point you think that makes.

    “Another example is Dr. Robert Shurney from Tennessee State University, it was Dr. Shurney who designed the tires for the moon buggy used during the Apollo 15 mission.”

    The tyres on the Moon buggy? You don’t say. OK, let me extend the olive branch and say that NASA was not 100% White. You found four examples. At the peak there were over 20,000 contractors for the Apollo programme alone. So let’s be generous and say one in five thousand wasn’t. I think my comment is a little understandable.

    “Dr. Vance Marchbanks, a heart surgeon and medical specialist for NASA, helped develop ways to monitor astronauts’ vital signs during space flight and was responsible for John Glenn’s health during America’s first orbital flight.”

    You don’t think this sounds a little pathetic? A decorated war veteran and his job is as part of a team that looks at an EKG?

    “George Carruthers who built the camera that was carried to the moon on Apollo 16.”

    Affirmative action all the way back then? Can’t be.

    “The list goes on.”

    It is going to have to go on a long way to show I am wrong. As an example of what I mean:

    Administrator Webb realized that in order to keep Apollo costs under control, he had to develop greater project management skills in his organization, so he recruited Dr. George E. Mueller for a high management job. Mueller accepted, on the condition that he have a say in NASA reorganization necessary to effectively administer Apollo. Webb then worked with Associate Administrator (later Deputy Administrator) Robert Seamans to reorganize the Office of Manned Space Flight (OMSF).[24] On July 23, 1963, Webb announced Mueller’s appointment as Deputy Associate Administrator for Manned Space Flight, to replace then Associate Administrator D. Brainerd Holmes on his retirement effective September 1. Under Webb’s reorganization, the directors of the Manned Spacecraft Center (Gilruth) Marshall Space Flight Center (von Braun) and the Launch Operations Center (Debus) effectively reported to Mueller.[25]

    Based on his industry experience on Air Force missile projects, Mueller realized some skilled managers could be found among high-ranking officers in the United States Air Force, so he got Webb’s permission to recruit General Samuel C. Phillips, who gained a reputation for his effective management of the Minuteman program, as OMSF program controller.

    George E. Mueller? Before NASA he worked in academic, for Bell Labs, back to academia, back to industry, off to the Air Force, eventually landing in NASA. Robert Seamans? MIT to RCA to NACA to NATO and then to NASA. D. Brainerd Holmes? Cornell to Bell Labs to RCA to Atlas, to missile defence to Apollo. Von Braun needs no introduction. Samuel C. Phillips went from the Army’s air force to the Air Force’s Engineering command, back to active command, to missiles and missile defence, and then to NASA.

    Every single one was White. And male. And of a certain age. But they came from diverse backgrounds with diverse experiences. That is what counted.

  22. So Much for Subtlety

    Van_Patten – “If you have not read it, I’d heartily recommend ‘Creating Equal’ the autobiography of Ward Connerly, the black man who led the campaign against Affirmative Action/ institutionalised race discrimination in California”

    Not yet but I will. I like Thomas Sowell’s argument that allowing second rate Black students into first rate colleges just means they fail. As do the third rate students at the second rate colleges. And the fourth rate at the third rate. And then there’s the Historic Black colleges.

    Affirmative action would be a war crime if the people who proposed it hated Blacks.

  23. Luke, the point I was making is that life is not as simple as an Ironman/Luke social justice wankfest. The clue was in the words I used.

    Ian B – you’re thanking Luke for not remembering what you once agreed with this about. This I find puzzling.

    Re NASA under sane circumstances it would nowadays be stocked 75-24-1 by Asian extraction folks/whites/blacks, I guess.

    They are currently trying to remake Brooklyn Tech and other public schools to fix this, so don’t fly in NASA rockets in say thirty years would be my advice.

  24. SMFS the people who proposed it do hate blacks. Everything they do is aimed at keeping the black man down. Minimum wage, affirmative action, the projects, abortion on demand, plea bargaining, destruction of the family… They are the real racists, posing as friends.

  25. “Ms. Pao, who said she wants to stay long-term as Reddit’s CEO when a one-year interim period ends, said she has removed salary negotiations from the hiring process because studies show women don’t fare as well as men.”

    She should be fired as CEO for that alone. The objective of the CEO is to make as much money for the shareholders as possible. If a load of workers are undervaluing themselves, that’s their problem, not yours.

  26. “I’d have thought being able to negotiate was pretty important.”

    Firstly, that depends on the role.

    Secondly, someone who’s not necessarily great at getting the best financial deal for him/herself won’t necessarily show the same ‘weakness’ when they’re negotiating on behalf of someone else. I know that applies to me personally. My risk/reward calculations depend on the particular circumstances that are in play (and it goes both ways.. I can be a more or less aggressive negotiator depending on how I perceive the relative outcomes)

    So whilst I don’t particularly agree with Ms Pao, I think it’s wrong to assume that someone who can nail
    down the best personal package they can will be similarly effective when acting on someone else’s behalf.. and the world isn’t exactly short of examples of people great at looking after themselves and not so great for anyone else.

  27. Tim Newman,

    “Secondly, who is the judge of whether women fare as well? I’ve found myself working in a position for less money than the chap next to me mainly because our criteria were different: for me, the location was great and so would accept a lower day-rate, whereas he hated the place and would only work for top dollar. I think here we have a CEO who thinks the salary is the only part of the package an employ looks at.”

    One thing about women is that they generally like big, comfortable companies. I’ve worked in all sorts of sizes of IT departments from a couple of people up to a couple of hundred and you will rarely find women in the small ones – they’re nearly all in the big ones. They all go for low-risk, high-comfort locations, and generally stay there as long as they can.

    That’s why they can’t negotiate. Men will trade in comfort and safety for money. And so have more options and so can push harder.

  28. We have affirmitive action here in the UK.
    There are jobs advertised where I can get an interview not because of being in the top few candidates but because I cannot walk much. There are even council recruitment schemes whereby a job is on offer only to the disabled.
    Annoys me a lot, none of this best candidate for the job stuff, just get the interview or job to meet quota of diversity.

  29. @Martin Davies

    There’s a problem with ticking the “Give me a guaranteed interview, I’m disabled” box – which is that you can end up getting called to completely pointless interviews where you don’t have a cat in hell’s chance, and generally waste everybody’s time including your own.

  30. “Any other boxes we have to tick to be hired by you? Islamophilia, militant secularist, health fascist, statist, anti-free speech… and on and on and on….?”

    Don’t be ridiculous. Although I’d be hesitant to hire a militant anything.

  31. “said she has removed salary negotiations from the hiring process”

    Politics aside, this is an excellent idea. Underpaying employees is every bit as much a mistake as overpaying them – possibly more of one – although far, far more common*, and so unless someone’s being employed as a negotiator, their skills at negotiating their salary are entirely irrelevant to what they’re actually worth to an employer.

    *In my experience, it’s overwhelmingly the most common serious error made by smaller businesses.

  32. So Much for Subtlety

    Matthew L – “Don’t be ridiculous. Although I’d be hesitant to hire a militant anything.”

    Why is it ridiculous? The more you give in to these people, the more they will demand. So you won’t hire a racist. Will you hire a sexist? As we have been told smiling at women and generally being helpful to them is sexist.

    We define benevolent sexism as a set of interrelated attitudes toward women that are sexist in terms of viewing women stereotypically and in restricted roles but that are subjectively positive in feeling tone (for the perceiver) and also tend to elicit behaviors typically categorized as prosocial (e.g., helping) or intimacy-seeking (e.g., self-disclosure) ….[Benevolent sexism is] a subjectively positive orientation of protection, idealization, and affection directed toward women that, like hostile sexism, serves to justify women’s subordinate status to men….

    As is buying a big dog. Wearing the wrong sports shirt. Not forgetting such classics as using words like chairman.

    Racism has gone the same way. Apparently golf is racist. As is drinking coffee.

    So if you are going to let yourself be bullied by the PC crowd, where are you going to stop? Refusing to employ someone because they drink coffee and play golf when they are not holding doors open for the typing pool?

  33. Just imagine at the interviews she finds the perfect person for the job who also happens to be a one-legged, black, lesbo. Fantastic. However, this perfect candidate also happens to be currently earning $1000 more than the salary on offer and won’t take a pay cut. Does she give the job to the less qualified/experienced middle-aged white Anglo-Saxon male who is happy with the non-negotiable salary??

  34. SMFS: You’re putting words in my mouth. You can hold your own opinions but you don’t get to define mine. I wouldn’t hire a racist. An actual racist, not the straw ones you’re busily erecting there. I wouldn’t hire a sexist either – someone who thinks that women are inferior, not whatever definition you’re about to dredge up from your sky-is-falling worldview.

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