Interesting

We are definitely seeing more diversity today, in television and in movies. Probably more than we ever have. There are certainly more Asians, more South Asians, more people from the Middle East, portrayed on television today, as compared to when I started out.

But in Hollywood, Caucasian is still the norm. Your heroes are still Caucasian. So that is somewhere we need more diversity, in terms of who’s creating the stories, who’s starring in the stories, who the stories are about. You can have a lot of brown people, but if the story’s really about white people, then it’s diversity, but not the kind we need.

Aasif Mandvi

Given that, you know, Indians are caucasians….

94 thoughts on “Interesting”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    The real question is why doesn’t he do something about it? American Jews created Hollywood and so a lot of heroes are more or less honorary Jews. The Hong Kong Chinese wanted to see their own sort of heroes. Along came Bruce Lee to give it to them. The Indians never liked Western films and have created a juggernaut – the problem being that Westerners don’t care much for their films which is really a bit unfair. Even Nigerians have got into the act.

    Black Americans have their own sub-genre of film. Indeed Tyson Perry is one of the most reliable earners in Hollywood. A pity he works almost entirely in racist cliche.

  2. Two of the biggest action stars at the moment are Dwayne Johnson and Vin Diesel.

    Personally, though, I think a far better test is whether non-white actors can play lead bad guys. Firstly, because the lead bad guy is, as any actor can tell you, the plum job that everyone wants. Secondly, because it shows that the filmmakers really don’t give a fuck about race. No-one’s asking “Oh dear, is it OK to cast this guy as the bad guy? Will the New York Times have conniptions?” They’re just casting the guy ’cause he’ll do the job well. Which has given us fantastic performances from Chiwetel Ejiofor and David Oyelowo and Idris Elba and Samuel L Jackson.

  3. American Jews created Hollywood and so a lot of heroes are more or less honorary Jews.”

    I’m inclined to write “WTF” but your friends like Jim and Interested will be along to scream at me that I ‘m the one with he problem. So go on, tell us all about these American “honorary Jews”. Tell us all about why the general populace doesn’t realise what is so obvious to you while you’re at it.

  4. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “I’m inclined to write “WTF” but your friends like Jim and Interested will be along to scream at me that I ‘m the one with he problem. So go on, tell us all about these American “honorary Jews”. Tell us all about why the general populace doesn’t realise what is so obvious to you while you’re at it.”

    I think we can all agree you are the one with the problem. Why would the general population care? Hollywood has gone over to telling stories about characters a lot like their writers – nerdy intellectuals who clearly got beat up a lot in school. Woody Allen films without the intellectual pretensions. With the bad guys usually being upper class WASPs. It is often a good story.

    Not all of them, of course. Not all the time. But often.

    The point still being if he don’t like it, he can make his own.

  5. So Much for Subtlety

    Squander Two – “Ah, yes. Jews. Of course.”

    Well yes. Look you all are being stupidly sensitive about this, but you only have to look at Israel to see what I mean. The national myth of the New Israeli was directly opposite of how Israelis saw the Jews of the diaspora – people who got beat up a lot. Israelis saw themselves as strong and aggressive who beat up other people.

    It is why Israel is such a tough issue for Jews still in the diaspora. Being the righteous victims of bullies is important to their identity. But the media these days shows Israel bullying the weaker Palestinians. It is a serious identity issue.

    But like I said, you all are being too sensitive. Which means, I assume, you have never heard of Perry.

  6. Hollywood movies predominantly are made, funded, written by and for Caucasians… could explain it.

    But there is a great opportunity for non-Caucasians to invest their money, write and make TV and movies with more of their kind in them.

    How much ‘diversity’ in Bollywood output I wonder?

  7. Now, when we talk about who runs the Indian media you are referring primarily to descendants of Brahmins and the.. merchant castes, but hey, you can’t spell ‘Indo-Aryan’ without ‘Aryan’.

  8. John B: Now now, let’s not get into tired old myths.. the people who make, fund, and write Hollywood movies are no more than fifty percent Caucasian even in mtDNA terms. The Khazarian thesis has been effectively discredited.

  9. Aah yes. Every time I see I see a Dwayne Johnson movie I think “needy intellectual who was clearly beaten up at school.

  10. So Much for Subtlety

    Paul Rain – “Now, when we talk about who runs the Indian media you are referring primarily to descendants of Brahmins and the.. merchant castes, but hey, you can’t spell ‘Indo-Aryan’ without ‘Aryan’.”

    The same way Latin America has never chosen an even slightly dark Beauty pageant winner. It was big news when Brazil crowned a Black woman Queen of the Samba parade a few years ago.

    However you do Bollywood a small injustice. It was always very upper class/caste but in the beginning it had a place for lower caste people. Someone like Suraiya (a father-less refugee from what is now Pakistan) might well have ended up in prostitution but for the industry.

  11. David

    Vanessa Mendoza may be defined as Black, but she’s a pretty white Black; well over 2/3 white, to be precise.

  12. I may not be observant, but I’m still Jewish enough to tell some gentile cunt who wants to lecture me about what Jews really are and what we really think to go and fuck himself. And, oh, look, I just did.

  13. Or, you know, maybe most normal black and indian people don’t care that much? Maybe they identify with the stuff people do more than the colour of their skin.

    I’ve got a sikh mate whose DVD collection is very similar to mine. We both own Raging Bull, the Lord of the Rings boxset, a number of Luc Besson movies, Indiana Jones, Star Wars etc. He doesn’t care that these feature white people, or at least not enough to prevent him buying them. His Indian film list is one film: Lagaan.

    There’s a lot of loud, political people saying that “Hollywood doesn’t tell our stories” but when those films are made, they often have terribly small audiences, often more biased towards white, middle-class left-wingers than those audiences. Most black people, like most white people do not want to watch Spike Lee films. They want something to entertain them – an action, comedy or romance movie. They might prefer to see a black or white guy in the superhero suit, but they fundamentally want the same story.

  14. S2,

    “Personally, though, I think a far better test is whether non-white actors can play lead bad guys. Firstly, because the lead bad guy is, as any actor can tell you, the plum job that everyone wants. Secondly, because it shows that the filmmakers really don’t give a fuck about race.”

    I’m not sure about that. There’s a thing with films about audiences identifying with protagonists – they vicariously fantasize about doing what the actor does – and until relatively recently, there were very few black actors in that role. I think it only started in the mid 80s with films like Beverly Hills Cop and Brewster’s Millions, where you had black actors playing lead roles that could have been played by a white actor (and Brewster’s Millions was a remake). On the other hand, I was watching the brilliant Yapphet Kotto in Live and Let Die (brilliant actor, so-so Bond film) some years earlier.

    And I’m not saying Hollywood was particularly racist in the recent past (you can go back to Birth of a Nation or Breakfast at Tiffany’s to see real racism). There were lots of positive black characters from the 60s onwards like Quarrel in Dr No, or Lando in Star Wars. Hollywood can only create the products audiences will buy, which is why there hasn’t been an openly gay actor cast in a romcom.

    I’m not even saying it’s just a white thing. Blaxsploitation cinema was about creating films for black kids who wanted heroes like them. So, you got Shaft and Foxy Brown.

  15. If a film is historical (and lots are) then you’re pretty much stuck with what happened.

    In the film ‘Zulu’, for example, there are far more parts for Zulus than for white people.

    So, swings and roundabouts really.

  16. @Andrew M

    And there’s even lots of bias in westerns. Want to make a film about gay cowboys? Get an Oscar. Want to make a film about lesbian squaws? Pah, you get written off as a pervert.

  17. >Dwayne Johnson and Vin Diesel

    Who are both in The Fast and the Furious series, which has an ensemble cast that is about as ethnically diverse as it is possible to be. Justin Lin – who directed most of the movies in the series – is an immigrant to the US from Taiwan. Action movies are sold to the whole world, and the more diverse the cast the better, generally. Action movies have been this way for at least 20 years now. (Consider “Rush Hour” from 1998 and its sequels. There are barely any white guys anywhere in the movies).

    Other genres of Hollywood movie are whiter, but it’s all about money, really. If diverse casts sell, they make more movies with diverse casts.

  18. Stig,

    You have a point, but I’m not saying casting didn’t use to be racist. I’m saying that non-white actors being cast as lead villains is an even better sign than their being cast as heroes. And I mean today, in the current climate. If they were being exclusively cast as villains in the Seventies, that would be a different thing, happening for different reasons. Chiwetel Ejiofor was superb in Serenity, and he was cast in that role because he was superb, not because Whedon had a character who was an amoral killer so told casting “Get me a negro.”

    Also, I’m not sure Live And Let Die is a great example: Yaphet Kotto (agreed, brilliant — I love him in Midnight Run) was playing the black bad guy for a very specific reason to do with the setting of the film. It’s not as if Bond villains were generally black. And then there’s In The Heat Of The Night.

    Black people tended to be cast as bad guys rather than good guys in olden times, but my point was that they weren’t usually the lead villains till recently. They’d get cast as a bunch of violent thugs and low-lifes in cop films, sure, and as henchmen, but evil masterminds tended to be white — and evil masterminds are the roles that actors want most. Which is precisely why Yaphet Kotto got that role: because he was one of the best black actors on the planet. And precisely why, despite being as great as he was, he didn’t get a lot more roles.

  19. Andy,

    > If a film is historical (and lots are) then you’re pretty much stuck with what happened.

    There has now been a stage production of Pride & Prejudice with a non-white Miss Bennett. Remains to be seen whether it’ll catch on.

  20. Live and Let Die is close enough to the Fleming novel from the mid-fifties to be described as based upon it. The story was, however, perfect to catch the wave of Blacksploitation films in the early seventies. Wouldn’t really have made sense for Mr Big not to have been black. So it doesn’t really tell us all that.much about Hollywood’s attitude to black actors at that particular moment in time.

    Unless of course Baron Samedi was actually a reinvention by some nerdy Jewish kid getting his revenge for being beaten up at school.

  21. > Unless of course Baron Samedi was actually a reinvention by some nerdy Jewish kid getting his revenge for being beaten up at school.

    I would actually pay good money to see Live And Let Die remade by Woody Allen. Including having him pay the theme tune on clarinet.

  22. More heat than light in this thread. Who cares about the actors’ akin? People want a good story, well acted.
    Olivier blacking up in Othello may seem a bit dated and histrionic nowadays, but would we really prefer Lenny Henry in the role?
    I reckon that a Hollywood remake of Beowulf would play well in Nigeria. Provided it was actually a good film.

  23. In identity terms, the “caucasian” or more direct “white” refers exclusively to people of Northern European racial character (race does not exist, by the way). Not Indians, not Jews and Arabs, not Native Americans, not even Latins generally.

    When Susan Sontag famously said that the white race is the cancer of history, she didn’t include herself in that, for instance. Following up the bunfight above, this comes down to culture. The construction of identity politics was largely an Ashkenazi Jewish project, and may be seen as a process by which victimhood groups are constructed who see themselves, like the Jews as eternal victims.

    As a general rule, human groups take pride in past triumphs, real or invented. We won the war, and all that. The Jews however never had any due to an unfortunate history, so defined triumph as survival of victimhood. And since the Ashkenazi were living in Europe, the victimising gentiles are white Europeans. When a Jew thinks of a gentile, he doesn’t think of a Chinaman or an African, he thinks of a Germanic Christian.

    So long story short, “white” means that cultural enemy with fair hair and a freckled tendency. An assumption that is inherited by all the victim groups of identity politics.

    Which is why it all dovetailed so nicely with the Puritan urge to condemn one’s own people.

  24. > When a Jew thinks of a gentile, he doesn’t think of a Chinaman or an African, he thinks of a Germanic Christian.

    Gosh. I’ve been told what I really think again. Twice in one day.

    Really, fuck off.

  25. Squander Two

    When you read “The Jews however never had any due to an unfortunate history, so defined triumph as survival of victimhood. And since the Ashkenazi were living in Europe, the victimising gentiles are white Europeans” you might think of that teensy weensy matter of 6 million of your people being gassed by white gentiles and might say “FUCK OFF”

    Oh, you already have.

  26. No, really Squander. We hold “nouns” in our head as a stereotype. If I say “chair” to you, you’ll think of a chair of some kind. It won’t be the same as the standard chair I think of, or anyone else. It’s a placeholder concept until you get more details (it’s a chintz armchair in the Queen Anne style).

    For most of the past 2000 years, Ashkenazi Jews were living among Northern Europeans who didn’t treat them well. It’s natural for the stereotype of a gentile to reflect that, same as a shiksa is a Northern European woman, normally stereotyped as a blonde.

    I’m not telling you what you think personally; it’s a cultural matter, and why for instance the Holocaust isn’t just seen as a terrible thing that happened, but characteristic of whites, the natural consequence of gentile Jew hatred, an evil in which all of us (northern) Europeans share.

  27. Ironman-

    I was typing my previous post while yours appeared, but as you can see I already addressed the Holocaust. Thanks for agreeing with me.

  28. “…would actually pay good money to see Live And Let Die remade by Woody Allen. Including having him pay the theme tune on clarinet.”

    Woody Allen has, of course, already been in one Bond film. The original film version of Casino Royale, staring David Niven as James Bond (a useful ‘no-one ever gets him’ when you ask people to name all the actors who have played James Bond in the movies).

    In fact, if you want to be really pedantic, in the Niven film, in order to confuse SMERSH, Niven orders all MI6 agents to change their name to James Bond, so (among others) Peter Sellers and Ursula Andress have also played James Bond (although not THE James Bond) in the movies. Meanwhile, Woody Allen played Niven’s nephew whose name was Jimmy Bond.

  29. So Israelis, surrounded as they are by Islamist maniacs, see Northern Europeans as the victimising gentile; an artificial construct.
    So Jews, with a history of suffering under the Spanish Inquisition, see Northern Europeans as the victimising gentile, a cultural construct.
    So after centuries of pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia see Northern Europeans as victimising gentiles, a social construct.
    So Jews, after experiencing at long last something like peace in the New World, see Northern Europeans as the victimising gentile, a national construct.

    But of course you absolutely do not presume to know how any individual Jew views anything. So that ‘cultural matter’ you have worked so hard to construct is visible…where exactly?

    Jesus, there are some fuckwits on this blog.

  30. Given that Squander’s in NI the really important question is that sure, he may be a Jew, but is he a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?

  31. I didn’t say anything about a social construct. I clearly stated that the Jews clearly did suffer harm. I’m not saying it’s an invalid observation, I’m just saying why it exists.

    As to your other points; Israel has only existed since 1948. The Ashkenazim who constructed so much of the new ideology were the product of 2000 years in Europe, not Palestine.

    The Spanish ruling class who reconquered Spain from the Moors were of Northern European stock, take a look at the striking redhead Catherine Of Aragon, for instance.

    The Eastern Europeans are of Northern European stock with some Oriental admixture. Originally Scandinavians who traded with the Orient like the Rus.

    Back with the Islamist maniacs, it is worth noting how many activist Jewish formations have worked tirelessly to flood Europe with Muslims despite the obvious flaws in this cunning plan, apparently because they are still thinking in terms of the cultural threat being solely white Europeans (the Eternal Gentile), the dilution of whom is always good (it makes the world safer for Jews) despite the reality of the situation. It’s become an internet cliche now, but Barbara Lerner Spectre’s infamous fifteen minutes of Youtube fame is a pretty good example;

    https://youtu.be/MFE0qAiofMQ

  32. > We hold “nouns” in our head as a stereotype. If I say “chair” to you, you’ll think of a chair of some kind.

    What a lovely analogy. Oh, hang on, no, it’s shit.

    I’d love to say, “Yeah, but I wouldn’t ascribe behaviour to it,” but your analogy’s so bad I can’t even do that. Because of course I would ascribe to a chair the behaviour of being repeatedly sat on, because that is a chair’s function. It’s function is decided by its maker. If we want to talk about ascribing thoughts or beliefs, we would need to ascribe them to something sentient, which would be the carpenter, not the chair. At which point it suddenly gets a bit more complicated, doesn’t it? We can make the claim that chairmakers make chairs, sure. But would you make a confident claim about, say, what chairmakers think about the Chinese? No, to ask the question is to ridicule it.

    > why for instance the Holocaust isn’t just seen as a terrible thing that happened, but characteristic of whites, the natural consequence of gentile Jew hatred, an evil in which all of us (northern) Europeans share.

    Oh, great. Now my non-Jewish side can share in some collective racial guilt as well because the Holocaust is “characteristic of whites”. It’s worth noting that the same Jews who you claim believe the Holocaust is characteristic of whites escaped it by migrating to the USA and UK of the 30s and 40s and not to, say, Mozambique or Sri Lanka. What fuckwits they must have been. Well, them or you.

    One Jewish stereotype that I think is generally true — and certainly gets referenced by Jews a lot — is “Two Jews, three opinions.” That’s the opposite of your Jewish stereotyping.

    For an encore, perhaps you could tell us what black people think. It’d be handy to know.

  33. Tim,

    A man’s driving through South Armagh late at night in the 70s, when he gets stopped by two men in ski-masks with AKs. One of the men tells him to wind down his window and asks him his religion. Thinking fast, the driver says, “Actually, I’m Jewish.” The masked man calls to his comrade, “Achmed! At last!”

  34. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Hollywood does base most of its movie-making decisions on what puts bums in seats (and, of course, drives DVD and online sales) but not exclusively. This is why they keep making dreadful preachy clunkers like In the Valley of Elah, Grace is Gone, Rendition and Green Zone which no-one wants to see and then when a rare iconoclast like Clint Eastwood makes American Sniper (which has done over half a billion dollars in box office) they act puzzled. And it’s not like Eastwood’s war movies are rah-rah jingoistic propaganda. Neither Letters rom Iwo Jima nor Flags of our Fathers could be said to be pro-war, because it’s impossible to know what happened on Iwo Jima and think of it as anything other than a tragedy, even if one believes it to have been a necessary tragedy. We Were Soldiers was another good movie that didn’t go overboard on the War Is Harmful For Children And Other Living Things nonsense and was all the more effective for it. But it’s only because these examples are atypical that it’s worth remarking on them.

    As for SMFS: I’ve never heard of Tyson Perry, either. Tyler Perry, on the other hand, I have heard of.

  35. As Paul Gottfried (Jewish) recently said, blacks mostly think like Jews these days.

    Culture is a shared characteristic and always incorporates some general way of viewing the world. For instance, I am not a Christian but my values are a product of nearly 2000 years of Christian culture. There should be nothing remarkable in such an observation. This is not to claim that every member of some group thinks identically. It is tendencies. I am less Christian in thought (or try to be anyway) than Ironman, for instance. But we share that cultural heritage in our mental formulations about the world.

    The interesting thing perhaps is that one is allowed to say positive stereotypes about Jews and other Jewish-modelled victim groups, but not negative ones. It is often said in some way like “Jews have been strong proponents of social justice”, by SJW Jews themselves. I’m basically just saying the same thing, but from a more critical perspective.

  36. “‘We Were Soldiers’ was another good movie”

    I thought it was rubbish.

    The plot may have been based on a true event but the true event seemed a bit pointless. Mel Gibson lands in a helicopter, the marines shoot an awful lot of Vietnamese soldiers then Mel Gibson takes off in his helicopter having achieved nothing of strategic value except an impressively large pile of dead Vietnamese.

    I mean, what was the point? They didn’t take any objective, capture any prisoners, hold any ground. Whilst a lot of dead enemy might be seen as an end in itself, there was no shortage of more Vietnamese soldiers and as things transpired, it was the relatively smaller number of dead Americans which in the end proved more powerful as motivator to change views of the participants in the war.

    I guess what I wondered was why make a film about an event so seemingly pointless?

    Unless that was the point.

  37. I rather like the Jews.

    They don’t go door to door bothering people to try to recruit more Jews, nor do they blow people up who won’t become Jews.

    In fact they make it quite difficult to become a Jew. I’d have to learn hebrew (or is it yiddish?) and cut a bit of my cock off and I don’t really fancy doing either.

    So, well done Jews. You’re all right as far as I’m concerned.

  38. Squander Two,

    “I would actually pay good money to see Live And Let Die remade by Woody Allen. Including having him pay the theme tune on clarinet.”

    It would be the whitest Live and Let Die. Mr Big would be the owner of a publishing house living in New York who is intent on flooding the market with French philosophy books, driving his competitors out of business.

    Thinking about it, Mr Big’s plan is an underpants gnomes business plan. 1) give away heroin 2) create addicts 3) drive the mafia out of business 4) sell heroin at high prices 5) profit. Of course, this ignores the fact that between 4 and 5, people will re-enter the heroin business. It’s not an industry with high start-up costs, is it? And how would he have the muscle to enforce his monopoly, having made nothing from giving away heroin for months?

  39. Stig,

    > people will re-enter the heroin business. It’s not an industry with high start-up costs, is it? And how would he have the muscle to enforce his monopoly, having made nothing from giving away heroin for months?

    I’m picturing Mr Big with a Noo Yoik Jooish accountant who keeps pointing this stuff out.

    “What do you want to kill him for? Are you crazy? He works for the world’s richest woman. Hold him hostage, already.”

    “You want to kill people with crocodiles? What about the upkeep? Vet’s bills? Bullets are cheap. Sell the crocs and just shoot people, already. And I know a guy in the handbag trade will do you a great deal for the skins.”

  40. Andy,

    > They don’t go door to door bothering people to try to recruit more Jews, nor do they blow people up who won’t become Jews.

    Well, there’s no money in it.

  41. I’m still waiting for Ironman to one day have a coherent, rational reply to something. Anything. I am a hopeless optimist.

  42. I heard a whining droning sort of sound, and I recognised it immediately as Ironman on his Scooter of Justice (copyright, Johnnydub).

  43. Squander Two

    Yeah, take your point: If it’s pointless arguing with a moron then you’re not going to get uh joy arguing with a moron with misplaced intellectual pretensions.

    So I suppose I’ll offer up my recommendation of ‘Live and Let Die’ the novel, a cracking read. Obviously some of Fleming’s language seems odd to us today. Well, not if you’re convinced your racial theories are right, but odd to most of us. Even so, well worth it. And then read Mark Gatiss’ homage to Fleming and his predicessors in his Lucifer Box-Set.

  44. Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS

    Nice stuff you wrote on this thread today; you must be so proud of yourself. Anything more to add to the subject of discussion, or do you think uou’ve already given a fair and accurate account of yourself?

  45. Well that went Fucko pretty quickly.

    The Joo Squander, surrounded though he is on here by odious Northern Europeans, is pulling everyone’s strings superbly, and stirring up trouble with his talk of films.

    At least we know what he thinks of us Northern Europeans now.

  46. bloke (not) in spain

    @AndyC re “We Were Soldiers”

    It probably helps having read the book & a number of other books around the subject.
    “Air Mobile” was intended to update what, in previous wars, was a cavalry role. To locate, bring to battle & defeat an enemy force. Not to hold or deny specific ground. It’s not much different a tactic to that employed by irregular forces. The intention is to deny all ground to your opponent by posing a threat to his forces, wherever they are..

  47. Bloke in Costa Rica

    AndyC: yes that was the point. It was a straightforward depiction of a real and very unpleasant event without much attempt to draw deep philosophical conclusions from it. It wasn’t a ‘message’ movie, thank God. The most notable thing about the battle of the Ia Drang Valley from a purely military perspective was the lessons it taught about how regular forces of the US and Viet Nam fared against each other in normal, symmetric warfare (namely, the Vietnamese lost tactically, and very badly, but not necessarily strategically).

  48. I’m rather disturbed to find there are things we can’t say on here about how certain cultural or ethnic groups tend to think or behave. That’s the kind of closed-minded attitude that gave us Rotherham.

  49. Bloke in North Dorset

    AndyC
    June 15, 2015 at 5:07 pm

    I rather like the Jews.

    They don’t go door to door bothering people to try to recruit more Jews, nor do they blow people up who won’t become Jews.

    Or go around lopping the heads off the wrong sorts of Jews.

  50. @Andrew M

    Oh dear. That whining noise in your rear view mirror is Neil the Saffa Accountant from Liverpool, AKA ‘Ironman’, hater of Muzzies, Ugly Women and Russians, but strangely incoherent enforcer of political correctness, on his self-righteous Scooter of Justice.

    See – he’s waving his book of Wrongthought tickets and trying to spell complicated words like ‘predicessors’!

    If you look closely, you can see his tongue out in concentration!

    ‘uh joy!’

    Add yourself to the list:

    Interested
    Mr Ecks
    SMFS
    JuliaM
    Tim Newman
    johnnydub
    Ian B
    Tim Worstall
    Jim
    Andrew M

  51. @AndyC/BiND

    Everyone* likes the Jews, they’re intelligent, hard-working family people who contribute to society.

    Ironman hates them (see threads passim) but he’s unusual in that and many other respects.

    uh joy!

  52. Or go around lopping the heads off the wrong sorts of Jews.

    What about other body parts though?

  53. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Andrew M – “I’m rather disturbed to find there are things we can’t say on here about how certain cultural or ethnic groups tend to think or behave. That’s the kind of closed-minded attitude that gave us Rotherham.”

    I’m surprised that you haven’t previously noted how sensitive members of a certain racial/ethnic group tend to be. Jesus, the whole notion of Islamophobia was cooked up after the Muslims noted how successful insinuations of anti-Semitism were in silencing criticism and shutting down debate.

  54. The interesting thing perhaps is that one is allowed to say positive stereotypes about [adjectival phrase I’m not repeating] groups, but not negative ones.

    Extraordinary isn’t it, that people prefer not to have negative traits attributed to them on the basis of an imaginary stereotype? It’s almost as if the members of these groups are human beings just like anyone else.

    I’d tell you about the films I like, but half the commentators here are already sure they know what I tend to think about everything.

  55. Social Justice Warrior

    Don’t you understnd? The right to display your bigotry and sing out your imagined negative stereotypes about racial and religious groups is one of the things that makes our country great.

    It’s second perhaps only to the right not to have to suffer the right of reply, somebody telling you what a fucking tit you’re making of yourself.

  56. Extraordinary isn’t it, that people prefer not to have negative traits attributed to them on the basis of an imaginary stereotype?

    It depends whether the observation is valid. Nobody likes to be criticised, but some critiques are valid and some are not. The funny thing here is I haven’t even said anything critical; just described what seems to me to be fairly clear which is that Jews tend (with justification) to see themselves as victims of historic gentile oppression, and thus tend to see being a survivor as something to be proud of. And this view has tended to be adopted by other groups (e.g. non-white ethnic groups, women, gays, etc) as part of the identity politics which was largely (though not entirely) developed by Jewish intellectuals.

    Culture really does influence people very strongly, in their assumptions about the world. There is surely nothing wrong with investigating that. If for instance I talked about Catholic guilt, nobody would bat an eyelid at the observation.

  57. The true idiot reveals self by trying to say something nice ABOUT AN ENTIRE GROUP. Hence you get someone like Dave Whelen announcing that he admires the way Jews are canny with money (quote). On here we have Interested telling Jews that he likes them (they must be so gratified) and he thinks they are hard working (every last one of them?)

  58. Interested: “Everyone* likes the Jews ….”

    Not really, it has to be said (and I don’t mean Muslims).

    Orthodox Jews in Orthodox Jewish settings, be it “their” parts of Brooklyn or Israel, are maddeningly rude and exclusive.

    I can understand why, but it doesn’t allow much opportunity to “like”.

  59. Philip Scott Thomas

    Ian B –

    The Jews however never had any due to an unfortunate history, so defined triumph as survival of victimhood.

    FWIW, back in the early nineties I attended a series of lectures o Jewish theology at Cambridge. The instructor was a Reform jewish rabbi. He told us that modern Jewish theology, post-WW2, identified the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 52, which most Christians would see as a foreshadowing of Jesus, as the suffering of the Jewish people as a whole.


  60. If a film is historical (and lots are) then you’re pretty much stuck with what happened.

    You mean Genghis Khan really did look like John Wayne?

    In the film ‘Zulu’, for example, there are far more parts for Zulus than for white people.

    That’s true if ‘parts’ includes extras. But here‘s the cast list.

  61. I dont watch films any more – my attention span has shrunk. Does it matter?
    Well I am one of th hoard of old people who are not only a gret social burdon but actually have some cash. So where are the white grandfather films – eh?
    Reruns of ‘Shane’ are not enough.

  62. You can have a lot of brown people, but if the story’s really about white people, then it’s diversity, but not the kind we need.
    – Aasif Mandvi

    Steve’s first law of diversitymongling:

    * Diversitymonglers only want the sort of “diversity” that suits them.

    Do we think Aasif lectures Bollywood to include more black people, white people, and yellow people in their movies?

    As if, Aasif!

    Rob – Starship Troopers the book, or Starship Troopers the film?

    I like em both.

    The book is classic sci fi action, and more or less singlehandedly invented the genre of military science fiction.

    Just as Tolkien inspired legions of imitators and numerous rock bands, Heinlein’s novel still has people writing about space troopers in power armour to this day.

    Games Workshop and its hugely popular Warhammer 40K universe is perhaps the ultimate fusion of both authors.

    The film was good in a cheesy, over the top, typically Paul Verhoeven taking-the-piss way.

    It wasn’t a faithful or even respectful adaption of the novel by any means, but anybody who doesn’t like Denise Williams in a tanktop – or Neil Patrick Harris dressed up as a Space Nazi – is probably an arachnid spy.

  63. john malpas – So where are the white grandfather films – eh?

    “The Straight Story”, by David Lynch – lovely little film

    “Up”, by Pixar – I was struck with terrible hayfever watching the opening sequence. In December. (My wife was bawling. Women eh?)

    “Gran Torino” by Clint Eastwood. It’s by Clint Eastwood. What else do you need to know?

    And, of course, there’s those loveable geriatric rascals in “Cocoon”.

  64. Andrew,

    > I’m rather disturbed to find there are things we can’t say on here about how certain cultural or ethnic groups tend to think or behave.

    Not at all. I make such claims quite a lot myself. Scroll up and you can see exactly what I objected to, because I made it clear. Ian is either utterly shit at expressing himself or is now lying about what he said earlier.

    Furthermore, where are these claims you can’t make? As Ironman has pointed out, having someone criticise your speech is not the same as having your speech somehow stopped. I won’t — and can’t, and wouldn’t — stop anyone saying whatever they want here. But I’ll tell people to fuck off if they’re obnoxiously offensive to me. Seriously, do I need to explain that distinction? Here?

    And, Interested, again, your relentless shouting at Ironman is tiresome beyond belief.

  65. So Much for Subtlety

    Squander Two – “Oh, great. Now my non-Jewish side can share in some collective racial guilt as well because the Holocaust is “characteristic of whites”.”

    Well far be it for me to ascribe belief to anyone, but a lot of people seem to think so. It is a perfectly mainstream academic belief. And some people have won prizes for books claiming precisely that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners

    “It’s worth noting that the same Jews who you claim believe the Holocaust is characteristic of whites escaped it by migrating to the USA and UK of the 30s and 40s and not to, say, Mozambique or Sri Lanka. What fuckwits they must have been. Well, them or you.”

    And yet it is one of the odd things that so many of them were not happy. Ed Miliband’s Father and Eric Hobsbawm were both saved. Sort of. They immediately started working to destroy the societies that saved them. I have always like the story of the Frankfurt School more or less entirely moving to California and immediately writing about how much they hated it.

    Squander Two – “I know, but I’d much rather talk about films. Honestly, some people.”

    No you wouldn’t. You came looking to be offended and offended you were. The films were and are beside the point.

  66. So Much for Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “Extraordinary isn’t it, that people prefer not to have negative traits attributed to them on the basis of an imaginary stereotype? It’s almost as if the members of these groups are human beings just like anyone else.”

    Yeah but if they say “stereotyping is racism” that is a very different argument. They ought to be clear about which argument they are in fact making. Either stereotypes are all unacceptable or they are not. If they are acceptable, why are only the positive ones acceptable? Worse than that, some stereotypes can be both positive and negative. So presumably you insist we should judge the intent of the author before condemning? A good example – last year Obama listed a “race realist” book in his reading list. He was reading a book that argued West Africans have better genes when it comes to running. In a positive sense, of course. People have got fired for saying that. Is it now acceptable to say it or not?

    “I’d tell you about the films I like, but half the commentators here are already sure they know what I tend to think about everything.”

    If there is one thing true about SJWs – if they tell you their views on whale hunting or whatever, you know their views on everything else. We do know what you think and like. And not because of your genes.

  67. So Much for Subtlety

    David – “Colombia had their first black miss Colombia 14 years ago”

    I stand corrected. Notice that Wikipedia claims a lot of people thought it was a political effort to diffuse accusations of racism.

    Bloke in Costa Rica – “This is why they keep making dreadful preachy clunkers like In the Valley of Elah, Grace is Gone, Rendition and Green Zone which no-one wants to see and then when a rare iconoclast like Clint Eastwood makes American Sniper (which has done over half a billion dollars in box office) they act puzzled.”

    The same with Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. But they could not bring themselves to make a film that Christians might like. They make one about Noah but it has to be about Global Warming not God.

    “As for SMFS: I’ve never heard of Tyson Perry, either. Tyler Perry, on the other hand, I have heard of.”

    Two corrections in one day. My mistake. I recommend people go out and watch one of his films. Especially one that involves Madea. He seems to make a lot of money the shallower his films are. And he does make money:

    In 2011, Forbes named him the highest paid man in entertainment; he earned $130 million between May 2010 and 2011.

    That is not bad for a film maker no one has ever heard of. Again, people have the ability to make films that do not appeal to White audiences. I kind of wish Perry wouldn’t but he does.

  68. So Much for Subtlety

    AndyC – “They don’t go door to door bothering people to try to recruit more Jews, nor do they blow people up who won’t become Jews.”

    Every year Jews celebrate Hanukkah. Which is a celebration of the deeds of a man who was the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban. His father began by slaughtering Jews he deemed too Westernised and forcibly converted a whole lot of people. Herod was descended from forced converts. Jews have a perfectly good tradition of forcible conversion. It is just that most of them have lived among Christians and Muslims who do not like conversion and so they have adapted.

    Although admittedly the only reason Jews started celebrating it is that they didn’t want their children copying Gentile ways like Christmas. The same with Kwanza really. But I am sure they felt that way out of love.

  69. So Much for Subtlety

    The Stigler – “There’s a thing with films about audiences identifying with protagonists – they vicariously fantasize about doing what the actor does – and until relatively recently,”

    I wonder how large the White audience for films like Shaft were? Because rap shows there is a large White audience for viciously misogynistic and violent music. It is, I would guess, necessary for the producers of such music to be Black because it allows White suburban boys to experience the thrill of the transgressive by identifying with ghetto thugs.

    “And I’m not saying Hollywood was particularly racist in the recent past (you can go back to Birth of a Nation or Breakfast at Tiffany’s to see real racism).”

    Hollywood is still very race conscious – but in the good way that Ironman likes. They are very careful to show crime is a White problem. Isn’t the joke that Law & Order showed more White murders than actually existed in New York during the period the show ran? They certainly took Black on White crime and regularly re-made it as White on Black or White or White murders. Hollywood is usually very careful to show street gangs as White unless they have to do otherwise. Think of the start of Terminator. They are careful to show figures of authority as Black – the cliche being that Police Chiefs are all Black in films. Or racists I suppose.

    In the same way the British media can’t show anything but the nice happy cheerful Rasta stereotype of Jamaicans even though the way that most Middle Class Whites are likely to interact with someone of Jamaican origin is as a victim of crime.

    But that is the nice sort of racism SJW and Ironman like.

    “There were lots of positive black characters from the 60s onwards like Quarrel in Dr No, or Lando in Star Wars.”

    Lando is the worst Black character ever. Again Hollywood has to steer a careful course. They need to put Black actors in “good” roles, and they have to be very careful not to show them as thugs. So Black characters have to be shown as harmless. It is actually mildly offensive and it is sad to see how this impacts some people’s careers. Take a look at Ice Cube for instance. From [The Initial Which Cannot Be Named or Ironman Will Cry].W.A. to films of such amazing crapitude it is impossible to describe. How the rapper on Straight Outta Compton would despise the actor in Are We There Yet.

    But the rapper would scare White audiences who know the truth even if Hollywood can’t say it.

  70. SMFS: [That the Holocaust is “characteristic of whites, the natural consequence of gentile Jew hatred, an evil in which all of us (northern) Europeans share”] is a perfectly mainstream academic belief. And some people have won prizes for books claiming precisely that [Hitler’s Willing Executioners]

    In fact the book claims precisely the opposite – it argues that many Germans participated in the holocaust because of a specifically German anti-semitism divorced from the values of the rest of the West.

    [Ralph Miliband] immediately started working to destroy the societies that saved [him]
    By joining the Royal Navy and fighting for Britain.

    Ian B: When a Jew thinks of a gentile, he doesn’t think of a Chinaman or an African, he thinks of a Germanic Christian.
    Tell us, O wise one, how you came to be so well informed? You seem to have not the slightest empathy with Jews, yet you know exactly what they think. (They/we; the boundaries are blurred.)

  71. So Much for Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “In fact the book claims precisely the opposite – it argues that many Germans participated in the holocaust because of a specifically German anti-semitism divorced from the values of the rest of the West.”

    So your argument is that ethnic stereotyping and collective guilt is acceptable if applied to one nationality but not if it is applied to an entire continent? Interesting.

    However Goldhagen focused on Germany’s history of anti-Semitism but he was perfectly willing to spread the blame wider. Blaming the Catholics too. Which means pretty much all of Europe.

    “By joining the Royal Navy and fighting for Britain.”

    By joining the Royal Navy and fighting for the USSR. Or at least against the Nazis.

  72. So your argument is that ethnic stereotyping and collective guilt is acceptable…

    No, I made no comment on that. My argument is that your vile views are founded in ignorance reinforced by a profound incapacity to understand what you read.

    [Ralph Miliband] immediately started working to destroy the societies that saved [him]…by joining the Royal Navy and fighting…against the Nazis.

    That really is a fair contraction of what you’ve written.

  73. SJW-

    You seem to have not the slightest empathy with Jews, yet you know exactly what they think.

    I’m not interested in “empathy” and emotionalism. I’m just trying to understand the cultural motivations behind the way people think, particularly how they get woven into intellectual discourse. I’ve variously in the past talked about Adam Smith’s Calvinist motivation in his analysis of the theory of value and other economics, and written a great deal about Protestant (and specifically Puritan) assumptions woven into our culture in general and philosophy in particular. I’ve also for instance suggested that the form of modern militant atheism is a remaking of the old Protestant hatred of Catholics (“old men in dresses” etc). This is just looking the same way at the Jewish cultural input.

    Jewish intellectuals have played an enormous role in the post-war philosophies; you can actually be much more specific and say, Ashkenazi Jews centred in New York. I am of the view that understanding this is greatly helpful in understanding modern configurations of class discrimination as presented by, um, SJWs.

    People are products of their culture. This is hardly a shocking new revelation, I think. People like to flatter ourselves that we are uniquely free thinkers who have broken the chains of history, but that is vanity. We have to understand that cultural input not only in order to understand others, but to understand ourselves.

  74. @SJW” “In the film ‘Zulu’, for example, there are far more parts for Zulus than for white people.”

    That’s true if ‘parts’ includes extras. But here‘s the cast list.”

    Yes, I am aware of that. My comment had its tongue so firmly planted in its cheek that the tongue had gone numb and the cheek was starting to crack & bleed.

  75. “Rob

    Anyway, what did everyone think of Starship Troopers?”

    “I lost my heart to a starship trooper” – Sarah Brightman & Hot Gossip?

    Oh, you meant the film?

    What I liked about it was that none of the human characters had any really likable features. They were all people you would have avoided as being so far up their own arses as to not notice anyone else. And too bloody perfect looking.

    So when the ‘bugs’ started ripping them in half, you didn’t care about them and could enjoy the special effects.

    Was that deliberate?

  76. So Much for Subtlety

    @SMFS
    “AndyC – “They don’t go door to door bothering people to try to recruit more Jews, nor do they blow people up who won’t become Jews.”

    Every year Jews celebrate Hanukkah. Which is a celebration of the deeds of a man who was the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban. His father began by slaughtering Jews he deemed too Westernised and forcibly converted a whole lot of people.”

    I’m not sure Jews are celebrating slaughter and forced conversions these days when they celebrate Hanukkah. Doesn’t seem to mention either on the internet when I look it up.

    Seems some slaughtering might have happened in the second century BC but I tend to give more weight to what a people have been up to more recently than further back in time.

    If there has been much slaughtering and forced conversion perpetrated by the Jews recently I’d be interested in hearing about it.

  77. Hanukkah…is a celebration of the deeds of a man who was the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban…
    Bunch of nutters, the Maccabees. But they were responsible for one of those past triumphs Ian B tells us the Jews never had, and therefore can’t take pride in.

    My comment had its tongue so firmly planted in its cheek…
    Sorry, it can be hard to tell on here. Sometimes I think SMFS’s whole act is just a parody.

  78. @andyc – Meanwhile, Woody Allen played Niven’s nephew whose name was Jimmy Bond.

    I remain much tickled by Russ Abbots take on Bond.

    “The name’s Bond, Basildon Bond”

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