There’s an obvious answer here

Can’t the BMA just admit it doesn’t want pregnant women to have fun?

Not quite right.

Everyone’s allowed to have fun. But only a little bit, because the BMA are puritans. A pregnant woman is showing the symptoms of having had some such fun. Therefore she must be allowed no more.

32 thoughts on “There’s an obvious answer here”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    I don’t know. I think there is a problem here. Pregnant women should not smoke crack for instance. I think we can all agree on that. Some number of pregnant women do. And drink too much. And eat the wrong things.

    What to do about it? Well the medical professional cannot be honest and say we have a problem with the underclass. They have to pretend this is a problem for all women. I am sure they like bullying other people too, especially the Middle class who do what they are told. But basically they don’t want to be seen as snobs offering advice like the Vicar’s wife of old.

    They should grow a pair.

  2. SMFS – Well the medical professional cannot be honest and say we have a problem with the underclass.

    My wife and I saw this after our youngest was born. The bed across the ward was occupied by an emaciated young woman, the toll of heavy drug abuse clearly visible on her face.

    Her baby was a pitiful thing: underweight, with misshapen features, and making eerie mewling noises like a newborn kitten, not the full-lunged screams of a healthy baby.

    Social workers spent the best part of two days at this new mother’s bedside, and we couldn’t help but overhear the conversations where she was reassured they wouldn’t take her baby away.

    I’ve worked with disabled kids from deprived areas in the past. A small but not tiny percentage of them are that way because their mothers didn’t stop drinking or taking drugs while pregnant. After a while, drink syndrome kids become easy to spot.

    I’m not sure there’s anything the BMA can do about this though. These people do the things they do not because they lack information, but because they don’t care. And in some cases, knowing they’ll get extra benefits for having a disabled child is seen as an incentive.

  3. These are SOPs for the state, though: identify a problem with a minority, refrain from calling a spade a spade through fears of being up-PC, announce the problem applies to everyone and then proceed to lecture/annoy/jail everyone *except* the minority to whom the problem applies.

  4. The article is fixated on fags and booze. I’m pretty sure that they’re not the *only* fun available to a pregnant woman.

    Some years ago the BBC France correspondent did a report on From Our Own Correspondent. She was pregnant and been to see her French Doc.

    Doc: Do you smoke
    Corr: (feeling guilty) Yes.
    Doc: How many?
    Corr: (Even more guilty) Five or six cigarettes a day
    Doc: Oh my dear, that is not *smoking*.

    Some places retain a sense of proportion…

  5. Full blown Foetal Alcohol Syndrome is catastrophic. Slighter degrees of alcohol related damage may partially explain the huge increase in ADD, ADHD and SEN. It’s not worth the risk.

  6. FAS is indeed appalling. And it requires a serious amount of booze to cause it too. The sort of amount that’s not healthy for a non-pregnant woman for example.

  7. @Ljh
    “explain the huge increase in ADD, ADHD and SEN”
    Has there been a huge increase? Or is it just that we’ve got new diagnoses to play with and keep finding new uses for them?

    Is there evidence that alcohol consumption by pregnant mothers has increased?
    “Key findings from the IFS show that in 2010 in England, of the women who drank before pregnancy, 48% gave up (33% in 2005) while they were pregnant and 47% (62% in 2005)
    said they cut down on the amount drank”
    IFS: Infant Feeding Survey 2010 Chapter 11.3

    That said what sort of person are you if you can’t manage without fags and booze for 9 months?

  8. Tim: the amount of alcohol intake for FAS varies by individual, timing (chronic vs binge at sensitive developmental period) and nutritional status(folate seems to be protective). As a child is a long term commitment and ADD, ADHD and SEN kids are harder work for parents than the healthy kind, it’s not a worthwhile chance.
    Increase in problem children since 80s definitely, separation by increase in awareness and actual incidence beyond my nonpaediatrician, noneducationist skills.

  9. Yes, but I’ve been a waiter where a pregnant woman has worried about whether the vinaigrette was made with wine….definitely taking it all too far.

  10. Btw, pre effective drugs to delay premature labour, alcohol was the obstetrician’s standby, probably too late to do damage and cheering in the circumstances.
    Re vinegar: a surgeon of the RoP variety forgot his organic chemistry to assure me grape vinegar was irretrievably haram, so it’s not just middleclass mums.

  11. @Ljh, correlation does not imply causation. If alcohol use is linked to ADD and it many other similar diseases then how come there was no epidemic of it in previous centuries when alcohol was drunk more commonly.

    I would posit that ADD and the increase in asthma or other auto-immune diseases (yes I am lumping them all together, a deliberate ploy like yours of ADD, ADHD, SEN) is down to the increase of modern practises like anti-bacterial hand wash, the use of pharmaceutical drugs for any minor ailment. But then I could be make a connection where there is none.

  12. Maybe the increase in auto-immune conditions is more apparent than real. Diagnosis and knowledge of them is so much better now, as is the availability of treatment. In the past people either died or suffered in silence as there was nothing to be done.

  13. So Much for Subtlety

    Steve – “Social workers spent the best part of two days at this new mother’s bedside, and we couldn’t help but overhear the conversations where she was reassured they wouldn’t take her baby away.”

    Well, as long as she doesn’t vote UKIP ….

  14. So Much for Subtlety

    Ljh – “Slighter degrees of alcohol related damage may partially explain the huge increase in ADD, ADHD and SEN. It’s not worth the risk.”

    It might. If ADHD and ADD actually existed. As opposed to medicalising poor parenting.

    I have a simple test for any young boy diagnosed with being ADHD – give him the latest version of Grand Theft Auto. I am willing to bet that in most cases, if you came back in four hours, you would find Little Johnnie, 1. sitting down, 2. concentrating and 3. shutting up.

  15. Smfs: there are genuine ADHD kids out there as well as simply disinterested and uncooperative ones.
    As for correlation and causation, how would you design an ethical doubleblind prospective study in humans? Animal models demonstrate a range of dose related longterm toxicity in foetuses.

  16. It might. If ADHD and ADD actually existed. As opposed to medicalising poor parenting.

    You beat me to it. Contrary to what middle class parents think of their own parenting skills, a lot of them are shit at it.

  17. So Much for Subtlety

    Ljh – “there are genuine ADHD kids out there as well as simply disinterested and uncooperative ones.”

    Are there? How do you know?

    “As for correlation and causation, how would you design an ethical doubleblind prospective study in humans? Animal models demonstrate a range of dose related longterm toxicity in foetuses.”

    For ADHD? I would suggest we try some Christian Brothers’ style education. That is, the little dears get a healthy dose of rugby practice every morning, following their monotonous diet of boiled oats along with an even healthier dose of beating should they talk back.

    I would expect a 100% cure rate. Roughly.

    As for alcohol, I suggest we don’t do a damn thing. The cure – government meddling in things beyond their ken – is worse than any damage mothers can do to their children short of FAS. And if low levels of alcohol consumption caused much damage, the French would have noticed it by now.

  18. “Sir Tim, screamed critics”

    This sort of journalism really fucks me off. Did they really scream? Why not say ‘said’ or ‘claimed’? Straight away you are giving the impression of a biased hatchet job which undermines the article. It is littered with language like this. it is classic Daily Mail.

  19. The Meissen Bison

    Steve Crook: That said what sort of person are you if you can’t manage without fags and booze for 9 months?

    The answer is that you’re an addict, a hopeless, helpless addict.

    And there are countless organisations and innumerable do-gooders whose sole purpose is to succour¹ you and justify your lack of self-reliance.

    ¹ also ‘sucker’

  20. Thanks for that link SMFS. So the entire shit storm is based on the claims of one woman who seems to have a tenuous relationship with the truth.

  21. So Much for Subtlety

    Rob – “This sort of journalism really fucks me off. Did they really scream? Why not say ‘said’ or ‘claimed’?”

    Actually I think that is a reasonable definition of the shrill hysteria that marked Sir Tim’s perfectly sensible remarks.

  22. If alcohol use is linked to ADD and it many other similar diseases then how come there was no epidemic of it in previous centuries when alcohol was drunk more commonly.

    Indeed. It’s only been safe to drink the water within the last couple of centuries. Before then everyone drank beer, as they’d worked out that drinking the water made them ill, drinking beer didn’t (noone had yet figured out that it was the boiling stage of the brewing process that did the trick. I expect they knew about the preservative qualities of hops though.)

    Several brews were made from the same mash, giving ‘strong beer’, ‘table beer’ (roughly the same strength as our session beers) and ‘small beer’ (probably 1-2%). The small beer was the everyday drink.

    So our ancestors, including the pregnant women, were knocking back half a dozen pints of beer a day.

  23. So Much for Subtlety

    Bloke in Wales – “So our ancestors, including the pregnant women, were knocking back half a dozen pints of beer a day.”

    Mind you, they were also baiting bulls, burning witches and sleeping with their cousins. Or worse.

  24. So Much for Subtlety

    Surreptitious Evil – “Don’t witches count as renewable energy?”

    There’s a form of renewable energy I think we can all support.

  25. I have yet to meet anybody that my mother can’t drink under the table. And I used to live in Glasgow. She did not cut down even remotely during pregnancy. Looking at the list of symptoms of FAS here, I see that it stunts your growth. I am 6’5″.

  26. From Wikipedia:

    Surveys from the United States, have found about 10% of pregnant women have drunk in the last month and 20% to 30% drank at some point during the pregnancy. … FAS is believed to occur in between 0.2 and 9 per 1000 live births in the United States.

    And yet they still also write:

    There is no safe amount or safe time to drink during pregnancy.

    And Wikipedia are usually quite good at the whole science thing.

  27. Looking at the list of symptoms of FAS here, I see that it stunts your growth. I am 6’5″.

    I’m surprised the nanny-statists haven’t come back to say “Yeah, but if your mum had been teetotal, then you might have grown to 8’7″!”

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