This just has to be quoted in full

The failure to reach an agreement in Greece is because, from the start, the diagnosis has been wrong. So in the end, the patient got sicker – and now wants to stop being treated.

As Greece’s finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has been repeating from the beginning of this crisis, Greece did not have a liquidity crisis, but a solvency crisis. The latter was caused by a competitiveness crisis and made worse by the financial crisis. And this kind of crisis cannot be fixed by cuts and more cuts, but only by a serious investment strategy, accompanied by serious – not token – reforms (e.g. to how the state, and hence also taxation, is run) to bring back competitiveness.

The conditions of the bailout therefore should have been conditions that emulate the kind of public sector reform and investment strategy that characterises many of the competitive powerhouses of northern Europe – including Germany. Indeed, Greece should not do what Germany says it does (austerity), but what Germany actually does (invest).

Over the last decade, Germany has invested in all the key areas that not only increase productivity, but also create innovation-led growth. Companies like Siemens are the result of a dynamic public-private eco-system in Germany, with high government spending on science-industry links (Fraunhofer institutes), the existence of a large and strategic public bank (KfW) that provides patient, long-term, committed capital to German businesses, a long run-focused stakeholder type of corporate governance (rather than the short-termist shareholder Anglo-Saxon model that southern Europe has copied), an above-average R&D/GDP ratio (rather than the below average one in Greece, Portugal and Italy), investments in vocational training and human capital, and a mission-oriented ‘energiewende’ strategy focused on greening the entire economy.

Imagine the very different types of result we would have witnessed had the negotiations been about stuffing an investment strategy down Greece’s throat, rather than more cuts. “OK, we will bail you out, but reform your country, and kickstart public investments (of the type named above), so that you are ready for the 2020 innovation challenge.”

Instead, insisting on the status quo full of more austerity produced an increasingly weaker Greece, more unemployment and more loss of competitiveness. Now alone, the only hope is that Varoufakis’ insistence on a European-wide investment programme will at least find a national solution. Perhaps it can begin with Greece forming a development bank like the KfW, and use it to kickstart the kind of long-term investment strategy that should have been part of this ‘pact’ from the start. Oh, and Italy’s competitiveness is just as bad. So if Grexit now happens— and Europe does not finally get a proper doctor in the room – get ready for Itexit over the next year.

Yep, that’s Mariana Mazzucato.

Nothing quite like having just the one answer for everything, is there?

Even Danny Blanchflower manages to do better than this:

Greece also has deep structural problems, mostly in product markets with oligopolies in almost every industry, closed professions, administrative and bureaucratic impediments to entrepreneurship alongside barriers to trade and exporting, none of which have been addressed.

Compare that with Mazzucato’s:

a long run-focused stakeholder type of corporate governance (rather than the short-termist shareholder Anglo-Saxon model that southern Europe has copied),

The more I see of Mazzucato’s economics the more convinced I am that she’s a fascist economist (note, please, “fascist economist”, not “Fascist” who happens to be an economist, one who follows the economics of fascism, not someone who is about to invade Abyssinya).

75 thoughts on “This just has to be quoted in full”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    So the answer, according to the good doctor, is a more cuddy and nice corporatism rather than that nasty unpleasant corporatism the Greeks have had up to now?

    Well yes. If only the Greeks were Germans, they would be German. As they are actually Ottomans who happen to speak Greek, any long term arrangements with the government and the banks will be corrupt and incompetent.

  2. a long run-focused stakeholder type of corporate governance (rather than the short-termist shareholder Anglo-Saxon model that southern Europe has copied),

    Erm… if the Anglo-Saxon model is the problem, why is all the socialist European countries that are fuckered?

  3. ” one who follows the economics of fascism, not someone who is about to invade Abyssinya).”

    I was always under the impression that fascist economics would always result in the invasion of Abyssinya sooner or later….

  4. It looks like those with a socialist agenda want to use Greece as an economic experiment to prove that a socialist paradise is possible, that money doesn’t matter, and that markets and capitalism are an illusion perpetrated by a power elite and the Murdoch media behemoth…

    Oddly, I thought that always used to be Venezuela. Whatever happened?

  5. The dead give away was in one word.
    The “energiewende”, the implementation of an inferior method of generating energy, that costs more than conventional, is not a reliable as conventional.
    And only benefits the government, tax, and the crony corporations manufacturing it plus the beneficiaries of the subsidies paid to it.
    An inferior technology that wouldn’t even exist unless the market was distorted in its favor by law.
    Bad economics.
    Corporate + government = Fascism.

  6. Shame on you Tim: don’t you realise that Mazzucato type logic would solve almost all the problems of this world? For example the solution to alcoholism is simple: have alcoholics drink less alcohol. And the solution to violence in the Islamic world is equally simple: have everyone there respect democracy and free speech.

  7. Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS

    As depressing as it is predictable. Why did that nutter shoot up that beach: because he’s Muslim; obvious innit? Why is the Greek gov’t bankrupt? Because they’re Turks and so corrupt and incompetent; obvious innit.

    No it isn’t. You are just a Thick.Racist.Prick

  8. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “As depressing as it is predictable. Why did that nutter shoot up that beach: because he’s Muslim; obvious innit?”

    I don’t recall ever being asked why that nutter shot up that beach. But as it happens we know. He has explained it to us. Him and his friends say it is because he is a Muslim. Why do you think otherwise?

    “Why is the Greek gov’t bankrupt? Because they’re Turks and so corrupt and incompetent; obvious innit. No it isn’t.”

    There is this thing called the real world. In the real world Greece has been in default for about half the time since independence. So. You’re claiming a really really long run of bad luck? A century long German conspiracy? What? How do you explain this?

    And the corrupt goes without saying. We know this because they lied to get into the EU in the first place.

    “You are just a Thick.Racist.Prick”

    But still not wrong.

  9. So why, apart from Islamism (and remember that the Tunisians voted out their post-Arab Spring Islamist government), did that beach shooting happen?

    And, please, we don’t know that he was “that nutter”. He might be clinically sane and entirely rational.

  10. Mazzacutie seems to have forgotten that Germany had almost a decade of austere policies until 2008 that left them in a strong position.

    Unlike those countries that had a consumer boomand a structural deficit…

  11. Surreptitious Evil

    And why did that nutter shot up a black church in Charleston? What entirely sane and rational reason could he have had?

  12. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “And why did that nutter shot up a black church in Charleston? What entirely sane and rational reason could he have had?”

    I thought everyone knew that – it was because Amazon was selling role playing strategy games about the Civil War.

    I suspect that, and I might be wrong here, that nutter shot up that Church because he believed hateful things about the people inside that Church and wanted to start a civil war in the US from which he hoped to profit. You know, much the same reason Muslims shoot up Churches.

    Why do you insist on treating one set of beliefs with kid gloves but equally insist on going boots and all for anything that even suggests the other set of beliefs? Racist attacks are rare. Muslim ones are not.

  13. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “And why did that nutter shot up a black church in Charleston? What entirely sane and rational reason could he have had?”

    I think the real question is why does Rusty think he shot up that Church. After all, he can’t believe that Whatshisname represents the true spirit of White Nationalism, can he? After all, Robert E. Lee was a gentleman! The actions of a fringe lunatic minority who defame most White Nationalists and distort their teachings can’t be held against the peaceful majority of White racists, right? We know that the majority of White Nationalists are peace-loving people who just want to get on with their lives, in harmony with their neighbours, although less so if they are non-White, and wouldn’t dream of burning crosses, don’t we? We definitely do not want to drive the peaceful majority of racists into the arms of extremists so we need to build some bridges to the moderate radicals in the KKK, perhaps some sort of out reach like funding some of their community centres and asking them to speak in schools about the real meaning of White Nationalism, what do you think?

    I am sure Rusty is down with all of that. Just because the Turner Diaries says some things, it doesn’t mean anyone takes them *literally*, right?

  14. And why did that nutter shot up a black church in Charleston? What entirely sane and rational reason could he have had?

    Not the question I asked. And you are committing the “begging the question” fallacy. But …

    Well, personally (and not being Mr Roof’s psychologist), I don’t think he is entirely well-hinged*. I base this mostly on my analysis of his hair-style which speaks “foaming at the mouth whack job”** to me. (I was in the US for the shooting and the subsequent capture. Initially, from the CCTV footage of him entering the church, I though he was wearing a hat. I was so wrong.)

    Obviously, his parents have a lot to answer for. Going through school being beaten up because your parents couldn’t spell “Dylan” properly, can’t have helped him. And switching to your middle name in self defence? “Hi, my name is Storm Roof”?

    * This compares to the wholly different motivations of Seifeddine Rezgui. If you want to drive the filthy kaffir out of Tunisia, opening fire at a tourist beach is a rational option. You don’t have to be “sane and rational” to choose this option, but if you are, it is potentially a completely valid one.

    ** There are many varieties of such. Armed racist is a fairly common one in Yankland.

  15. Blanchflower also said “There has been no reform to speak of. Greece is characterised by endemic tax evasion, a poor tax collection infrastructure, parochial patronage policies, corruption and huge delays in the administrative courts dealing with tax disputes.”

  16. Going through school being beaten up because your parents couldn’t spell “Dylan” properly,

    I was under the impression that Dylan was a Welsh name, and we all know the Welsh can’t spell properly at all. Not with a language that has no vowels.

  17. Has anybody considered that the Greeks relying, for an economy, on the work of Germanic* slaves is hardly new?

    * Okay, I’m not sure if the Greeks got as far as that, but they certainly had slaves from the north west. As with the Romans, having slaves with blond hair was a status symbol.

  18. Oh Tim. Oh Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim…

    “The more I see of Mazzucato’s economics the more convinced I am that she’s a fascist economist (note, please, “fascist economist”, not “Fascist” who happens to be an economist”

    Mazzucato’s grandfather was one of Mussolini’s key aides. Her brother is a leading light in the modern Italian fascist party. Her entire family are fascists, and so is she.

  19. SMFS

    And there you draw your distinction. You suggest that no distinctiin should be drawn netween our friendly Charlestonian murderer and white nationalists in general: “The actions of a fringe lunatic minority who defame most White Nationalists and distort their teachings can’t be held against the peaceful majority of White racists, right?”

    And I entirely agree. He is the logical conclusion to that hate-filled ideology.

    However, that is the grouping you prefer to see him drawn from: white nationalists; most definitely not white people I general.

    Moving on to Turks, however, there is no such need to fund a sub – grouping. Just being a Turk and so “corrupt and incompetent” is axiomatic, innit?

    That is why you are a racist prick, because you ascribe characteristics to an entire race. It is this racism thay leads you to declare that Jewish Hollywood makes films about “geeky nerds who were beat up at school”.

    Surreptitious Evil

    Thank you for pointing out that the Tunisia shooting was down to Islamism and that he was an Islamist.
    Now are you prepared to join your fellow travellers on this blog and say it was because he was a Muslim?

  20. This is the Progressive idea in a nutshell, that wise technocrats can turn Greece into Germany with policy, legislation and regulations. Social engineering alchemy.

  21. Tim>

    Google Mussolini and Mazzucato – helps if you have a smattering of Italian.

    http://www.ebay.it/itm/Fascismo-DA-ANARCHICO-A-SANSEPOLCRISTA-MAZZUCATO-EDMONDO-MARANGONI-1934-/201368002162

    One of grand-pappy’s books, with a foreword by Piero Bolzon.

    The brother – I think, could be a cousin, they’re an extensive clan of fascists:

    http://ricerca.gelocal.it/mattinopadova/archivio/mattinodipadova/2003/07/02/MK1PO_MK125.html

    There’s plenty more out there on Google.

  22. Surreptitious Evil

    Thank you for pointing out that the Tunisia shooting was down to Islamism and that he was an Islamist.
    Now are you prepared to join your fellow travellers on this blog and say it was because he was a Muslim?

    My fellow travellers? You’re begging the question again. Can you manage not to do this? Ever?

    I am perfectly happy to state that I believe that nearly all Islamists and an even greater proportion of violent Islamists are Muslims. Although actual statistics seem to show that a disproportionate %age are converts rather than “racial” Muslims.

    Is the %age of Muslims who become violent Islamists strong greater or less than the number of moronic racists* who commit mass murder? Dunno.

    Are violent Islamists a greater or lesser threat to the mass of people, even southern USian blacks, than moronic racists? I’d bet they are a significantly greater threat. Even to Yanks of colo(u)r.

  23. According to our PM in Aus:

    “What’s being done by Daish (the Islamic State) has nothing to do with God, it has nothing to do with religion,”

    Well, he is half right, it has nothing to do with God, Allah being the invention of Mohammed. It does, however, have everything to with religion, i.e. with those who actually believe there is a God and that he would choose a murdering, thieving pedophile scumbag as his messenger.

    All Muslims may not be Islamic terrorists, but all Islamic terrorists are Muslims and believe that their religion justifies their actions. Pretending otherwise is not helpful. We need to insist that Muslims accept that in western democracies, all ideas and beliefs are open for free and frank discussion. The appropriate response to discussions regarding your beliefs is to either engage or to not take part, it is not to threaten, plead offense or demand that your beliefs are a special case above criticism.

  24. SE

    However, you did respond to my ‘cos he’s a Muslim innit’ with “so why, apart from Islamism did that beach shooting happen?”

    And we have GeoffH happily informing us thay Islamist or Muslim is a “distinction without a difference”.

    So games with subsets and quips on tautology wouldn’t seem to get us very far on this blog.

  25. DocBud

    “All Muslims may not be Islamic terrorists, but all Islamic terrorists are Muslims and believe that their religion justifies their actions. Pretending otherwise is not helpful”

    Just who is pretending otherwise and where?

  26. Rustboy: WTF are you rambling about now? The beach merchant killed them because of islam. Do you think he went on a spree because the tips were light? If you are saying he is not all muslims then you are right. However it doesn’t matter much what the Islamic in the street thinks (it doesn’t matter at all if she is a woman) any more than it matters what the individual Germans in nazi Germany thought. Very few of them stood up at a Nuremberg rally to protest. And most mosques are protest free also. 100 mundanes lead by 1 nutter =101 nutters. Therein is the danger.

  27. Mazzucato’s grandfather was one of Mussolini’s key aides. Her brother is a leading light in the modern Italian fascist party
    Your so-called evidence is vanishingly thin. Your first link shows that there was an Edmondo Mazzucato in 1934 who had once been an anarchist and participated in Mussolini’s meeting in Milan in 1919. It doesn’t show that he’s in any way related to Mariana.

    Your second link shows that there’s a Raniero Mazzucato who was briefly (in 2002) a National Alliance alderman in Padua.

    The public information about Mariana is that her parents emigrated from Padua to Princeton, where her father is still a working physicist, and her mother died four years ago.

    There’s no Raniero in her immediate family, but since he lives in the city where her parents went to university, it’s plausible that he’s related. But there’s nothing in that old article in a local paper to suggest he’s “a leading light in the modern Italian fascist party”. (This may be him.)

    Not that it makes a difference to any assessment of her ideas – she was brought up in an academic environment in Princeton, not in the bosom of her extended family. But perhaps you could come up with some relevant evidence to support your claims.

  28. “And there you draw your distinction. You suggest that no distinctiin should be drawn netween our friendly Charlestonian murderer and white nationalists in general: “The actions of a fringe lunatic minority who defame most White Nationalists and distort their teachings can’t be held against the peaceful majority of White racists, right?”

    And I entirely agree. He is the logical conclusion to that hate-filled ideology.

    However, that is the grouping you prefer to see him drawn from: white nationalists; most definitely not white people I general.”

    So lets see.

    We have white folks, a sub section of who are racist bigots, and Dylan Roof is a (small) subsection of them.

    Then we have brown folks, a sub section of whom are Muslims, and Islamic nutters who shoot people and blow themselves up are a sub section of those Muslims.

    So if its perfectly OK to castigate white racist bigots (who haven’t so far shot anyone) for believing in an ideology that leads to Dylan shooting up a church, I think its perfectly OK to castigate Muslims as a whole for believing in an ideology that leads to Islamic nutters opening fire on tourists.

    Or if we can’t castigate Muslims for the Islamic nutters they produce, then we equally can’t castigate white racist bigots for their violent outliers because the majority haven’t actually done anything nasty as yet, and the ones that have aren’t representative of the rest.

    One or the other please, but not both.

  29. From the DT 17:20 today:

    “Speaking to BBC Radio 4 earlier today, Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis said the measures were something the government will “have to work overnight on with the appropriate authorities” in Greece and in Frankfurt.
    He said:
    It is our view that a monetary union that cannot guarantee functioning banks, especially under the pretext that the Greek people have had the audacity of demanding to have a say in their future, constitutes a major denial of the very principle of monetary union. ”

    And therein lies the fundemental conflict. The very principle of Euro monetary union requires that the Greeks have no say in their future.

  30. White supremacist murderers are a small subset of white supremacists, who are a small subset of white right-wingers who are a subset of white people.

    Islamicist murderers are a small subset of Islamicists who are a subset of Muslim political activists who are a small subset of Muslims.

    So if it’s OK to castigate white racist bigots for believing in an ideology that leads to Roof shooting up a church, it’s OK to castigate Islamicists for believing in an ideology that leads to Islamicist terrorists shooting up a beach.

    I hope that helps.

  31. Ironman,

    The Aus PM for one. President François Hollande insisted the Charlie Hebdo and Jewish massacres had nothing to do with Islam. George W Bush said the same of the Twin Towers attacks. Labor in Australia prefers to look the other way because it relies heavily on Muslim votes in some constituencies.

    The current UK PM for another, following on from previous UK PMs declaring certain terrorist attacks have nothing to do with Islam, Cameron again insisted that Islam is a religion of “peace”, and that the terrorists’ atrocities are “in the name of a twisted and perverted ideology that we have to confront.”

    Islam was founded in violence, spread by violence and, unsurprisingly, persists to day as a violent religion. You can only have peace under Islam if you submit to Islam. When Mohammed made Islam up, he meant it as a tool of subjugation, as a means of maintaining peace under his rule. He didn’t invent it for the good of humankind, he invented it for the good of Mohammed.

  32. Chaps, you’re wasting your time with Ironman. His Scooter of Justice (TM Johnnydub) is a 50cc two stroke affair, but it’s a darned sight more powerful than his brain.

    Obviously, the guy on the beach killed those people because he’s Muslim – unless it was because he used to like breakdancing.

    It doesn’t follow that all Muslims approve of this – hardly revelatory (though I think post Charlie Hebdo twenty per cent of Btitish Muslims – ie perhaps 150,000 people – thought those attacks were justified, which is at least concerning).

    The interesting thing to me is why a foul mouthed South African Liverpool FC fan accountant called Neil who used to work in Wales thinks it’s anything other than crass and revolting to try to use such a tragedy to score points with untruthful slurs against people he doesn’t even know on an unrelated internet blog (possibly being read by the families of victims).

    Perhaps one day some of the above 150,000 Charlie Hebdo approves will travel to Liverpool, and Ironman will see his children murdered in front of him; then we will see how quick the Scooter of Justice is fired up in defence of their killer.

  33. Interested

    So that’s the sixth time you’ve borrowed Johnnydub’s scooter of…blah blah blah.

    So you have no imagination, no individual thought and nothing other than personal invective to contribute.

    Well done you!

  34. “Perhaps one day some of the above 150,000 Charlie Hebdo approves will travel to Liverpool, and Ironman will see his children murdered in front of him…”

    Now why do I believe I am a better person than you? What a classy guy you are.

  35. DocBud

    In answer to “who said that on this blog and where?” you refer to the prime ministers of Australia, the UK and the president of France.

    Do you know for a fact they contribute to this blog?

  36. Ms Mazzucato gets called a fascist for suggesting some kind of investment strategy, by people who think that the bulk of the Uk’s bank “lending” going into bubblecious residential property is absolutely kosher for being anarchic and therefore not statist.Brit laissez faire (from laziness) political wankers have a nerve calling anybody on earth stupider than they.

  37. Maybe, Ironman, you should re-read my comment, which referred to the Aus PM and therefore was clearly talking about people beyond this blog pretending Islamic terrorism had nothing to do with Islam. Try responding to what people actually say rather than what your poor English comprehension imagines they say.

  38. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “And I entirely agree. He is the logical conclusion to that hate-filled ideology.”

    I don’t think he is actually. He is *a* logical conclusion of that ideology.

    “However, that is the grouping you prefer to see him drawn from: white nationalists; most definitely not white people I general.”

    Although notice that the Social Justice set have decided that the proper grouping for this sad whack job is White people in general. Well mainly southern White people, but White people nonetheless.

    “Moving on to Turks, however, there is no such need to fund a sub – grouping. Just being a Turk and so “corrupt and incompetent” is axiomatic, innit?”

    I have no idea. Perhaps when I say that all Turks are corrupt we can have a conversation about it. I did not. Last I checked Greeks were not Turks. Neither were all Ottomans.

    You need to make sh!t up because your need to be angry on the internet outstrips your ability to think about what you read.

    “That is why you are a racist prick, because you ascribe characteristics to an entire race. It is this racism thay leads you to declare that Jewish Hollywood makes films about “geeky nerds who were beat up at school”.”

    The entire race is making Hollywood films? How interesting.

  39. “Fascist” who happens to be an economist, one who follows the economics of fascism, not someone who is about to invade Abyssinya).

    There’s no difference between the two. Both want a ‘People, State, Party’ triumvirate society where the people are on a lower rung than even ‘The People’.

    Wanting to Forcibly export fascism is not a requirement to be a fascist.

    She’s a fascist, plain and simple.

  40. It’s delicious to note that at this very moment tax social justice warrior Richard Murphy is in the midst of clutching his pearls over the plight of Greece over at his site.

    Funny how the same Richard Murphy who obsesses over whether a few multinationals might be beating the system out of a few tens of millions can’t bring himself to criticize a nation whose citizens and businesses routinely evade between 40% and 50% of their tax bills, to the tune of tens of billions annually.

  41. So Much for Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “So if it’s OK to castigate white racist bigots for believing in an ideology that leads to Roof shooting up a church, it’s OK to castigate Islamicists for believing in an ideology that leads to Islamicist terrorists shooting up a beach. I hope that helps.”

    Except you are missing Rusty’s point. He wants to claim that criticism of Islam is racism. So Islamists hold to an ideology. As do Muslims. They come in all shapes, colours and sizes. They are not a race. They are more like Communists. So Rusty has to ignore that to pretend that dislike of Islamism is racism.

    The problem is that this racist bigot is being used to attack people who are not racist bigots or if they are, they are not encouraging anyone to attack Churches. It happens that White communities in America are very law abiding. Even the racists. So racist crime is exceptionally rare – at least White-on-Black racist crime is rare.

    But all that does not matter as the Left is using this to attack White America yet again. So they are picking on the Confederate flag – a great wedge issue for them. Even though it had nothing to do with this attack at all.

    The other question is how much do non-violent Muslims contribute to the violence against non-Muslims. Well, there has always been violence against non-Muslims so it was a problem with this community before Islamism came along. All over the world Muslim communities show little disapproval of such attacks. At least when they are not targeting their own communities. When McVey blew up a building, the Militia movement died. When the 7-7 bombers attacked London, not a single radical preacher was fired.

    Ironman – “Do you know for a fact they contribute to this blog?”

    Damn, you have busted me. Not only am I DocBud, Interested, Ian B, Van_Patten and Tim Worstall, I am also the Prime Ministers of France and Australia.

  42. So Much for Subtlety

    Dennis The Peasant – “Funny how the same Richard Murphy who obsesses over whether a few multinationals might be beating the system out of a few tens of millions can’t bring himself to criticize a nation whose citizens and businesses routinely evade between 40% and 50% of their tax bills, to the tune of tens of billions annually.”

    He is like a lot of the Left – he does not have any principles, he has a Cause. That cause is aimed at the usual targets of the Left – the successful White heterosexual communities of the West. Although Murph is usually only concerned with a subset of those.

    So in Greece, he can side with his Usual Enemies in the fiscally conservative Germans and on the Right, or he can side with the Tax Cheats in order to bash Western free enterprise.

    Not really a choice is it?

  43. DocBud

    FFS

    I asked for “who on this blog and where?”
    You replied “The Aus PM for one”.

    That is the simple fact. Reading should have been the easy part of this; clearly not for you.

  44. “Perhaps when I say that all Turks are corrupt we can have a conversation about it.”

    Well then, let’s have a look at what you actually wrote:
    “As they are actually Ottomans who happen to speak Greek, any long term arrangements with the government and the banks will be corrupt and incompetent.”

    There you go; the causal link between their race and their – in your view – inherent corruption.

    I did think this blog attracted intelligent people. However, intelligence includes being able to remember what you wrote earlier on the same thread. I need to start looking elsewhere.

  45. Mr Interested-Ecks-SMFS

    Another feature of your ugly, vicious world view: when all else fails, when yur hate has been stripped naked and shown for what it is, you turn around and say ” they are not a ‘race’, so it can’t be racism”. So Muslims are not a race, Jews are not a race. (SMFS at 1.45am)

    What term would you prefer boys for your reflexive, thoughtless blind hatreds?

  46. Ironman,

    The question you posed and to which I responded was:

    “Just who is pretending otherwise and where?”

    It is there above for you to read at your leisure, maybe doing so slowly and mouthing the words as you do might aid comprehension of your own words..

  47. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Well then, let’s have a look at what you actually wrote:”

    And so you trivially prove I made no comment about Turks at all. Nor linked anyone’s corruption to their race.

    Well done.

    “There you go; the causal link between their race and their – in your view – inherent corruption.”

    Causal link? First of all, “Ottoman” is not even an ethnic group much less a race. So no racism.

    Second, no mention of Turks. You shot off your mouth before engaging your brain didn’t you?

    Ironman – “Another feature of your ugly, vicious world view: when all else fails, when yur hate has been stripped naked and shown for what it is, you turn around and say ” they are not a ‘race’, so it can’t be racism”. So Muslims are not a race, Jews are not a race. (SMFS at 1.45am)”

    Sorry but when did I say Jews were not a race? They aren’t, as it happens, but where did I say it? Muslims certainly are not. So do you mean a lot of people prefer linguistic accuracy? Well yes we do.

    But what you actually mean is you know you made a mistake and so you’re going to do your best Humpty Dumpty impersonation and insist “racism” means whatever you want it to mean today.

    “What term would you prefer boys for your reflexive, thoughtless blind hatreds?”

    No idea. Something accurate?

  48. Ironman, seriously if the community here is so objectionable, why not fuck off to the Staggers or CiF or some other cesspit?

    Afraid you’ll find your moral preening at your own moral superiority will find a home among fellow like-minded simpletons?

  49. DocBud

    I do find, however, and in the circumstances very embarrassingly that I you at least a big apology. Indeed I didn’t limit my comment to people on this blog. It’s what I mean’t and what I thought I had written. It was not, however, what I did write.

    However, are those world leaders, including George Bush, really denying the perpetrators are Muslims? They are saying g these actions are nothing to do with Islam; not the same thing.

    Look there’s a serious debate to be had by Muslims, particularly in the West. Why is anti-Western rhetoric poured down the throats of young Muslims? Whay are muslims doing to counter this? Do they want to? Why are we too cowardly to challenge it? And do we really want to challenge it? After all, free speech is the freedom to say things others don’t like. When Tim Worstall attacked David Cameron’s illiberal ‘intolerant of intolerance even if it’s legal’ speech there was no great rush on this blog to disagree with him.

    So why do we here leave the field clear for SMFS and his friends to spout their racist shit? ( This thread started with his linking of Greeks’ ethnicity with incompetence and corruption)

  50. If only the Greeks were Germans, they would be German. As they are actually Ottomans who happen to speak Greek, any long term arrangements with the government and the banks will be corrupt and incompetent.

    “Ottoman” is not even an ethnic group much less a race. So no racism.

    So what on earth did you mean? That Greeks are Ottomans in the same sense that English are Romans? No doubt your main aim was to be offensive, because that’s how you like to start your day, but was there anything that might pass for thought behind what you wrote?

  51. Rustednuts: “So why do we here leave the field clear for SMFS and his friends to spout their racist shit?”

    Its the arrogance of this twerp that is most galling. Anyone who doesn’t shit their pants with outrage every time an accusation of waycism is made must be a member of Hitler’s inner circle and a Klan Klaver Kleagle in their spare time.

    Why do “we”–etc. Who is the we Chemo* Sabe? Apart from you, SJW, Dave, R-mould and a few others nobody else on here buys your leftist shite. Even DBC mostly confines his lunacy to economic matters. You however know how it is with the entire world never mind this blog.

    Do you really imagine that there is any great resistance to the whole jihadi caper within islam? Do you imagine that there are legions of islamists ready, willing and able to come to the aid of western civilisation and argue down “extremists” within their own ranks? When the “extremists” lead those ranks? And their own “holy” book tells them exactly what to do about non-believers. Do you believe the Islamic world is composed of middle-class left-sucking equa-freeks like you? All full of outrage about inequality and racism and all the rest. If they knew or cared about your SJW-lite muslims-have-nothing-to-do-with-islam tripe (other than knowing it as being the very coin of useful idiocy) maybe it would give them a laugh while they were setting you on fire.

  52. @Ironman

    ‘No, just you. And thanks for making it undeniable.’

    No, not just me.

    Me plus a dozen or so others (I can name them if you like, but they probably know who they are). And that’s just anonymous commenters on here who happen to disagree with you – I bet like fuck you think you’re better than 90% of the people you meet. But then – typical Saffa 🙂

    The point about your kids is a serious one.

    This utter shite – of yelling ‘Racist!’ at anyone who dares to suggest that we have a very serious problem with some Muslims in the UK – is assisting the terrorists* by muddying the waters.

    It will only stop when people who are doing the yelling suffer themselves.

    While I very much hope that *nothing* bad happens to *anyone*, if anything bad *does* happen to someone I prefer the burden of that something to fall on someone like you.

    Actually, you assisting the terrorists for the masturbation of your own enormous ego while hoping that no ill befalls you and yours makes YOU the bad person.

    *That’s leaving aside the very obvious fact that there are Muslims of all races, and that no-one says ‘all’ Muslims are terrorirts or even terrorist sympathisers – certainly on here, no-one has ever said that, I defy you to produce an example.

  53. ‘I do find, however, and in the circumstances very embarrassingly that I you at least a big apology. Indeed I didn’t limit my comment to people on this blog. It’s what I mean’t and what I thought I had written. It was not, however, what I did write.’

    Ha ha ha ha that is a fucking collectors’ item.

    Almost literally PMSL here…

  54. It’s a peculiar. Ironman – a fat white South African residing in the North West of England – knows better than an old guy in Baluchistan what the Koran says and what it means, when the old guy from Baluchistan has spent the last seventy years memorising it and until about five years ago Ironman had never even heard of it.

    What do we call this?

    If Ironman dictated from the lofty heights of his job as, er, a Liverpool accountant to a Jamaican Rastafarian what the meaning of Rastafarianism was, what would we call it then?

    It’s simple: it’s the I-know-best racism of the arrogant white South African.

    You can take the boy out of Joburg but it seems you can’t take Joburg out of the boy, eh.

    Along with the self-hatred of a true scourging Catholic, whipping himself for his own racism and projecting it everywhere.

    Weird. Are you one of those who inflicts the stigmata on himself? because it must play havoc with that double entry book-keeping.

  55. So ironman’s a Saffa then?

    Explains why he’s such an insufferable cunt then.

    And yes I’m saying all South African blokes are insufferable cunts. Stick that in you top hat…

  56. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “However, are those world leaders, including George Bush, really denying the perpetrators are Muslims? They are saying g these actions are nothing to do with Islam; not the same thing.”

    They come very close to saying these people are not real Muslims. Which is interesting because I am sure that the Muslims world enjoys being told who is or is not a real Muslim by the likes of Tony Blair,

    “Look there’s a serious debate to be had by Muslims, particularly in the West. Why is anti-Western rhetoric poured down the throats of young Muslims? Whay are muslims doing to counter this?”

    Because we handed our schools and the BBC over to Trots and they have used it to further they insane hatred of the West. They are poisoning the mind of our second generation. But also because religion is based on hateful rhetoric. It doesn’t work otherwise. Why would Muslims do anything to counter this? Just as they aren’t doing anything to counter rape gangs. Dead White people, like groomed 12 year olds, are our problem, not theirs.

    “Why are we too cowardly to challenge it?”

    Because ar$eholes like you sit in wait for anyone who might stick their head up so you can administer a good kicking. Because you are the problem. You have made the world safe for Islamist terrorist by your hate filled witch hunting. Because of people like you, no one dares to take part in the conversation. At least not in any way that would upset Polly.

    “So why do we here leave the field clear for SMFS and his friends to spout their racist shit?”

    There is nothing remotely racist about what I said. About anything I said. It is just your Sixth Form Trotskyism.

    “(This thread started with his linking of Greeks’ ethnicity with incompetence and corruption)”

    No it did not.

    Social Justice Warrior – “So what on earth did you mean?”

    Maybe I meant that some [email protected] here are so determined to be offended, so desperate to find something to get out raged by, that any random comment would set them off?

    “That Greeks are Ottomans in the same sense that English are Romans?”

    Well no. That the Ottomans have left a deep mark on every aspect of Greek life in undeniable. The Greeks and the Turks drink the same sort of coffee in the same sorts of tea shops and go home to eat the same sorts of food. If we were talking about music or food, that the Greeks shared a common Ottoman culture with a lot of other people would not be controversial.

    Apart from the rabbits, it would be hard to find evidence of a Roman impact on British life.

    “No doubt your main aim was to be offensive, because that’s how you like to start your day, but was there anything that might pass for thought behind what you wrote?”

    Indeed there was. If you think about it, you may eventually catch up.

  57. Ironman,

    Apology appreciated and accepted.

    It is the saying that Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is what I object to. Tony Abbott keeps calling IS a death cult. He sounds utterly pathetic when he does so. IS is grounded in Islam, it can point to the history of Mohammed (beheader of Qurayza Jews), the Koran and the Hadith for justification of its acts.

    The simple reality is that Islam is the problem. It was founded by a violent psychopath to suit his own ends. In the West we need to stand up and tell the truth, Islam is a force for evil and most certainly is not a religion of peace. All this pussy footing around and appeasement are not helping. We need to have the courage to state the truth about Islam and declare that we will not compromise our beliefs and freedoms to accommodate it. Muslims are free to believe what they choose, but they should have no expectation or right that non-Muslims have to respect their beliefs or accommodate them within the wider society.

  58. Only this morning I was sitting in Caffe Nero thinking how far apart the English and the Romans are in their taste for coffee. Economic convergence is inevitable. Or else you’re completely wrong about everything. In fact it’s the latter.

    (In fact it was the latte.)

  59. So Much for Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “Only this morning I was sitting in Caffe Nero thinking how far apart the English and the Romans are in their taste for coffee. Economic convergence is inevitable. Or else you’re completely wrong about everything. In fact it’s the latter.”

    It is good to see you are using your time profitably. Except there is no reason to think economic convergence is inevitable. The Greeks did not converge. The euro has been a massive effort in trying to get the Greeks to behave like Germans and guess what? It has failed. Max Weber has been proven right. Obscure theological arguments half a millennia ago have been more accurate predictors of the euro’s fate than the best and brights minds.

    We are also seeing another example of this today. Puerto Rico is defaulting. Puerto Rico has the same institutions as the Mainland. It has free access to the largest market in the world. It has open access to the best education system in the world. It has free movement of experts to and from the island. It has the rule of law. It has democracy. It has access to the world’s capital markets.

    Conventional economics should suggest Puerto Rico should be a success story. Instead it is a lot like the other countries it shared so many hundreds of years of Spanish rule. Mexico for instance. Brazil. Argentina. Defaults are common in all of them.

    Culture matters. Worse than that, it is almost impossible to change.

    How anyone thinks this is racism escapes me. But the real world is there, spinning peacefully away, whether you want to accept it or not.

  60. Islam is a force for evil and most certainly is not a religion of peace

    The problem with that is that for every evil committed in the name of Islam, I can find something at least as bad perpetrated in the name of Christianity. Muhammed beheaded hundreds of the Banu Qurayza Jews, Charlemagne beheaded thousands of pagan Saxons at Verden (some scholars think he was guided by the biblical extermination of the Amalekites).

    Most people want peace, some people want violence. All will find their justifications in any religion or in none. The enemy is not Islam, it’s the men of violence.

  61. Men of Violence can’t just jump up and say “Lets go out and do some violence–you know fuck everything up for everybody like”. They require evil doctrines to “soften up” the peaceable, productive mugs, to get the whole show on the road. Two of the most evil doctrines around, indeed all time champs in first and second place respectively are socialism and islam. Christianity’s founder said turn the other cheek. Men of violence, men of power did succeed in perverting that into a power structure of sorts. But it took much more work and greater effort and was far less efficient than intrinsically wicked doctrines such as the two butes above.

  62. SJW,

    Islam is the enemy. It is an evil, pernicious doctrine, the basic tenets of which are diametrically opposed to the principles on which western, liberal democracies are founded.

    Where people are willing to submit to and be controlled by Islam, peace of a kind is possible. The current problems with Islam are due to Mohammed’s cult clashing with people who have not been deliberately been kept in ignorance since birth and who are not willing to have their lives and freedoms interfered with by adherents of a manufactured religion.

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