Dear Lord, this is deeply distressing

The left must put Britain’s EU withdrawal on the agenda
Owen Jones

I share an opinion with Owen Jones.

How will I ever feel clean again?

83 thoughts on “Dear Lord, this is deeply distressing”

  1. To paraphrase the Great Man, I will deal with the Devil himself if that will ensure Britain’s withdrawal from the EU. The NO campaign will gather some strange bed-fellows, better get used to the idea.

  2. I read that this morning. They are fuckers aren’t they, the left? Didn’t give a shit when an elected right wing government gets kicked out but when a bunch of socialists get told they can’t have anymore free money it’s a fucking coup and a neoliberal conspiracy against democracy wah wah wah.

  3. I had lunch yesterday with a leading light of the No campaign from Ted Heath’s day. He said that even then they had to have special arrangements for meetings – Wedgewood Benn leaving before Enoch Powell arrived, that sort of thing.

  4. Having spent the past 23 years since Black Wednesday being described as ‘quite mad’ a ‘closet racist’ and ‘little Englander’ I now don’t want people to agree with me!

  5. Yes, you and Owen Jones both seem to want Greek bank depositors to have their property expropriated by the government. How very leftist!

  6. Ironman:

    Ah, but Owen and his chums want to leave the EU for good reasons; your reasons were evil.

  7. This opportunism makes me quite peeved.

    For a broad political wing where adherents of all stripes within the left think of themselves as critically minded, it takes Greece to make them wake up that the EU strips members of democratic power. Where were they when technocrats rolled into Ireland and other countries?

    Although I have to say it’s the soft owen Jones left-labour types that are the biggest opportunists here, the far left has always had some kind of opposition yo the EU but that didn’t stop many labelling the socialist party and the no2EU campaign as a ‘left wing ukip’.

    I don’t want these Johnny come latelies on my side.

  8. Glendorran

    Thanks for restoring my faith. You’ve cheered me up no end.

    P.S. We in England are beginning to get a glimpse of what life under the SNP is like; oh shit.

  9. Bloke in Germany

    No, don’t you play that game. If you of all people can’t argue your case without misrepresenting the other view then your case is unarguable.

  10. I am looking forward to what the left describe as a proper living wage.

    Before the election Red Ed called for £8-00per hour, George raised the stakes to £9-00, and now Owen calls for a ‘proper living wage’ – Copyright Guardian Tossers.

  11. So Much for Subtlety

    Just remember, you are walking the same path, for a short period of time. That doesn’t mean you are friends, or that you came from the same place, or that you have the same destination in mind. It just means that for this part of the Long March, you are walking in the same direction.

    Ironman – “Having spent the past 23 years since Black Wednesday being described as ‘quite mad’ a ‘closet racist’ and ‘little Englander’ I now don’t want people to agree with me!”

    The irony!

    Ironman – “No, don’t you play that game. If you of all people can’t argue your case without misrepresenting the other view then your case is unarguable.”

    Oh I get it, Rusty is trying to be funny! Maybe that is why he has adopted Stalin’s name as his own.

  12. Stopped clocks and all that, I wouldn’t worry. He’s still firmly in the camp of big government planning, even while complaining about a terrible failure of big government planning. Apparently it’s never really been tried, you see?

    I had to laugh at his continued support for the ‘progressive’ SNP when it’s quite clear an independent Scotland would have bankrupted itself more quickly than the Greeks have managed under the EU.

  13. I remember working in 1999 on £4 p.h. Didn’t expect to live on it, though, being a filthy student…

  14. So Much for Subtlety

    Mind you, that is not distressing. This is distressing:

    An American judge cannot understand why someone does not like Obama. So he over-rides the first set of doctors he appointed and ordered mandatory therapy:

    http://www.newsweek.com/judge-orders-dsouza-receive-psychological-counseling-353554

    The psychiatrists D’Souza was first ordered to see found no signs of depression, but U.S. District Judge Richard M. Berman overruled their findings and ordered D’Souza see a new psychological counselor weekly.

    “I’m not singling out Mr. D’Souza to pick on him,” Judge Berman said. “A requirement for psychological counseling often comes up in my hearings in cases where I find it hard to understand why someone did what they did.”

    Psychological treatment for dissidents? 1984 was a warning, not a hand book.

  15. Philip Scott Thomas

    D’Souza was sentenced in September to eight months in a work-release center, five years of probation, a $30,000 fine and community service after pleading guilty to campaign finance violations in May 2014. He had arranged “straw donors” to contribute $10,000 to the failed 2012 U.S. Senate campaign of his college friend Wendy Long.

    Rather different from An American judge cannot understand why someone does not like Obama, dontcha think, eh?

  16. The Meissen Bison

    The woman from IMF, she say “no”.

    Looks like they’ve kicked the hellenic can down the road as far as they can and it’s now wedged in a storm drain.

    Interestinger and interestinger.

    I don’t mind Owen Jones agreeing with me: I expect lots of people with whom I shouldn’t like to have dinner to be in the same camp by and by.

  17. Dongguan, Ironman, Rob,

    Brendan O’Neill in The Spectator:

    Where the hell were you guys in 2001, when the Irish people rejected the Nice Treaty and were subjected to a tirade of abuse from EU officials before being made to vote again? Where were you in 2005, when the Dutch and French peoples were libelled by EU officials as racists and xenophobes and ‘the generally pissed off’ for having the temerity to reject the EU Constitution? Where were you in 2006 and 2007 when some of eastern Europe’s elected leaders were told by Brussels to tone down their political rhetoric or face being found in contravention of EU obligations? Greece is far from the first European nation to have its democratic impulse nulled by Brussels bureaucrats.

    I’ll tell you where you were back then: you were on the side of the Eurocrats sneering at the pesky masses. You treated criticism of Europe as a kind of mental malaise: Europhobia. And you let it be known that all good people, like you, back the EU, whereas only bad people — racists, nationalists, fat blokes with the St George’s Cross tattooed on their arses — oppose it. You formed a chattering-class ring of steel around the EU, deflecting all critical jabs and barbs as the unhinged mutterings of the generally pissed-off. So, yeah, your Damascene conversion to the cause of Euro-questioning is a tad irritating, to be frank.

  18. PST,

    When Hillary Clinton, or at least someone involved in running the Clinton Foundation, is found guilty, or even just having to mount a pretty good defence in court, you’ll have a point. Until then, D’Souza’s being punished for being a Republican.

  19. S2: Fantastic. Sums up my feelings entirely. I wanted to vomit reading that Owen Jones piece in the car this morning.

  20. Squander

    Excellent link – I for one want nothing to do with Owen Jones – he might even put me into the Yes camp – as I said yesterday when describing Murphy, Jones is also one of the most dangerous men in Britain – asbolutely horrendous – an accomplice to mass murder in Venezuela, an apologist for all manner of Socialist crimes – The Eurosceptics should say ‘thanks, but no thanks’ and refuse to share any platform with such a creature.

  21. I have been pondering for a while now whether the loony Left was going to flip 180 degrees on the EU; their “we are at war with Eastasia” moment. I think they really might do it. The first bandwagons are rolling and once they get into their usual lockstep arms race of craziness on Twitter et all there is no way of telling where they’ll end up crashing and burning.

    I’m looking forward to it.

  22. So Much for Subtlety

    Philip Scott Thomas – “Rather different from An American judge cannot understand why someone does not like Obama, dontcha think, eh?”

    No, not really. A technical violation of the campaign finance law got him before the judge in the first place. But he is being ordered to have mandatory therapy because the judge says he cannot understand D’Souza’s opinions. The therapy is not to make D’Souza not donate money again.

    America, like the rest of the West, used to be a free place. Not so much any more.

  23. Brendan O’Neill nails it, as always. However, he missed out Italy. Remember that democratically elected priapic ‘great seducer’? We may or may not have liked him, but his election was democratic and legitimate; his removal wasn’t.

    Where was Owen Jones then? Where was Ritchie? Where was Howard Reed?

  24. I mentioned this yesterday on one of the other threads. I think the SJWs are going to go anti-EU. What that means for the 2017 In/Out vote I’m not sure. It could mean a more level playing field in the media as the BBC et al will not want to traduce their usual bedfellows, but the presence of the SJW types in the OUT campaign may put off floating voters.

    But it is the most blatant re-writing of history imaginable. I can remember the Left screaming blue murder at Alan Walters back in the 80s when he said joining the ERM was a folly, and the same for Nigel Lawson when he came out against it. The Left have been pro-EU ever since about 1987, often rabidly so, in the manner of someone who has already flipped 180 degrees once (being anti-EEC in their 1983 manafesto). Its just another ‘We have always been at war with Eastasia’ moment.

    It will be amusing to see how the BBC/Guardian deal with it though. Thats going to take some serious intellectual contortionism.

  25. The irony in this is that for once, I’m backing the EU for being the adults in the room. They let the Greeks have too much fizzy pop and sweets and let them stay up too late, and today they’re telling them that it’s early to bed with cocoa and a biscuit tonight and the Greeks are having a stamping fit.

    Its depressing how the left are. Countries that are on a trajectory to starvation and death and war get an intervention from some sensible people and they complain about the intervention that rescues them. Because of course, if they hadn’t, a socialist Nirvana would have been created, because reasons.

  26. Ironman,

    > However, he missed out Italy.

    Basic rule of journalism: three things makes a trend. What kind of person would list four things? That’s mental.

  27. “because reasons.”

    Well, it’s inevitable. Like the second coming of Jesus or the return of the 12th Imam. And the fact that this inevitable event has not come to pass in the last 150-odd year since the Revelation is proof of nefarious dark forces at play. Like neoliberal trolls, and excessive cis-sexuality on Teh Twatters.

    Cos otherwise the inevitability would be inevitable, right?

  28. “Greek bank depositors to have their property expropriated`’: it’s not their property. A deposit is a loan to the bank. If you don’t like that, don’t use a bank use a vault.

  29. Owen Jones wants us to leave the EU because he’s just realised that the bureaucrats over there aren’t mad enough for him, so he wants his own even madder sort of bureaucrat over here to run our lives for us.

    We want to leave the EU so we are free to make the decision ourselves for all the bureaucrats to piss off and leave us alone.

    Same initial decision but a totally different outcome.

  30. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Brendan O’Neill nails it, as always. However, he missed out Italy. Remember that democratically elected priapic ‘great seducer’? We may or may not have liked him, but his election was democratic and legitimate; his removal wasn’t.”

    He also missed out on Austria. Which didn’t elect a party the EU didn’t like but they did elect a coalition that contained a party they did not like.

    The EU had never objected to the Belgian government’s efforts to ban Flemish parties they do not like.

    Nor can we throw stones. We didn’t elect Nick Griffin but he got thrown in a police cell for telling the truth.

    “Where was Owen Jones then? Where was Ritchie? Where was Howard Reed?”

    Standing outside shouting that they were Thick.Racist.Pricks?

  31. So Much for Subtlety

    dearieme – “it’s not their property. A deposit is a loan to the bank. If you don’t like that, don’t use a bank use a vault.”

    It is a little more than that. A deposit is actually pooling your money with a lot of other people’s money in order to gamble on someone else’s economic success. You are not good at picking hard working businessmen to invest in, but you hope that the bank, using thousands of people’s money, can pick thousands of good people to invest in. Spreading the risk.

    If you used the bank as a vault, if you had a safe deposit box, I doubt your money would be at risk. But most people like the monetary reward of joining the bank in a flutter. Like any other form of gambling, it can go wrong.

  32. SMFS

    Nick Griffin? Oh dear God.

    When I wrote about there being two Ukip, one the anti-EU free market party; the other being BNP-LITE, people here got upset with me.

    So, can somebody please tell me that my fellow travellers on my Eurosceptic path aren’t just the far left and far right?

  33. Well, there’s me. I’ve been saying for years that I agree 100% with Tony Benn on the EU but disagree with him about practically everything else. Does that mean I’m neither Far Right nor Far Left, or does it make me both?

  34. Nick Griffin? Oh dear God.

    Odious man, appalling bigot.

    But, the thing he was tried for in 2006 (he has never actually been jailed)? He was actually telling something at least loosely based on the truth. Stopped clocks and all that.

  35. If you don’t like that, don’t use a bank use a vault.

    Fine, if we are allowed to defend it in the absence of a police force that is willing to, plus we are allowed to start paying for anything and everything in cash without questions. Until then, the government – having one way or another forced everyone to keep their money in a bank – has an obligation to make sure the deposits are guaranteed.

  36. As for the left and the EU.

    They are deeply stupid but also posses immense stores of evil animal cunning. A crew who have murdered millions but still have the shit they peddle broadcast and treated with respect by millions more. It takes colossal guile and brass neck to pull that off.

    As far as their involvement in the NO (to EU tyranny )campaign goes –well useful idiots are, by definition, useful. But there can be no trust. This could just be standard leftist entryism tactics. “Join” something in order to fuck it up.

  37. Dongguan John

    I should have read your comment before reading the piece in detail. What a nauseating piece of crap – this paragraph reinforces my belief (which might veer into tinfoil hat territory) that the man is in fact an agent of the EU (or some sinister international communist cabal)

    ‘And that is why – if indeed much of the left decides on Lexit – it must run its own separate campaign and try and win ownership of the issue.

    Such a campaign would focus on building a new Britain, one of workers’ rights, a genuine living wage, public ownership, industrial activism and tax justice. Such a populist campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.”

    ‘Workers rights’ – As if EU employment law was not restrictive enough for the man – an estimated 40 million jobs lost across the continent to the Third World as a direct result of it.

    ‘Tax justice’ – The EU should enshrine Richard Murphy on a continent wide basis….

    ‘Reconnect with working class communities it lost touch with long ago’ – somehow I don’t think the former mining outposts in the North are big on gay pride marches or gay marriage, Owen

    He should be repudiated by every single Eurosceptic in the media – if he attaches himself to the ‘Out’ campaign our continued membership of the EU is assured.

  38. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Nick Griffin? Oh dear God.”

    That’s the problem isn’t it? It is easy to support free speech for people you like. But people you don’t? Well we all know where you stand on them.

    “When I wrote about there being two Ukip, one the anti-EU free market party; the other being BNP-LITE, people here got upset with me.”

    Did they spew sub-literate invective while simultaneously both mis-characterising and refusing to engage with what you actually said? Don’t you hate it when that happens?

    “So, can somebody please tell me that my fellow travellers on my Eurosceptic path aren’t just the far left and far right?”

    The vast majority of British people are Eurosceptic. Always have been. I doubt they are either on the Far Left or the Far Right. In fact they seem to elect moderate parties on a regular basis. Although perhaps that is because the mean between two extremes is still a mean.

    On the other hand, perhaps the problem is not them but what you Social Justice Warriors think is normal? If you stand out there with the Greens, everyone else probably does look extreme.

  39. VP:

    ‘A genuine living wage’ = much higher than whatever it currently is.

    ‘Public ownership’ = Me and my mates running everything.

    ‘Industrial activism’ = A meaningless phrase that sounds right on and will get a cheer from the idiot mob.

  40. dearieme, SMFS, TN: FWIW, a few days ago the Guardian reported that Greek government has banned people from taking money out of their safe deposit boxes in bank vaults.

  41. Richie: “we are at war with Estonia; we have always been at war with Estonia”
    The World: “Richie, it’s Eastasia not Estonia”
    Richie: “quite frankly if you are not willing to contribute to the debate then you are banned”

  42. “That’s the problem isn’t it? It is easy to support free speech for people you like. But people you don’t? Well we all know where you stand on them.”

    Here we go again! The free speech gang and it’s straw man supression. Nobody shut Nick Griffin up; they stopped voting for the arsehole. And you can’t show me ‘where I stand on them’ because I’ve never tried to deny your right to free speech; I’ve just insisted on responding. It’s the response you don’t like. It’s the response always induces the cry of “free speech”.

    Feel free to consider this a great debating victory you Thick.Racist.Prick

  43. Ironman: You don’t debate anything. You assert that your moral “values” (anti-waycism, etc ) are so much better than any others and you therefore are so much better than anyone who doesn’t share them.

    “Fuck you” would be equivalent as well as more concise and waste fewer electrons.

  44. As 70+ year old Lefty, I have stayed true to my anti EU origins, voting for Bob Crowe’s No2eu when the chance arose more recently. As for the Left flip-flopping on Europe, the extreme Right has hardly been consistent: the first party in the UK to propose European Union was Oswald Mosley’s Union movement (the clue’s in the name.) It looks like the way the EU is now becoming straight Fascist corporatism is the fulfilment of his terrifying dreams.

  45. DBC,

    “the extreme Right has hardly been consistent: the first party in the UK to propose European Union was Oswald Mosley’s Union movement (the clue’s in the name.)”

    Spode was a lefty, not an extreme right-winger. He spent a lot more years as a Labour MP than a Conservative one, he was a Fabian and most of the “Mosley Memorandum” would go down just fine with most of the left of the Labour party and the SNP today.

  46. “…and most of the “Mosley Memorandum” would go down just fine with most of the left of the Labour party and the SNP today.”

    As would the anti-semitism

  47. Such a campaign would focus on building a new Britain, one of workers’ rights, a genuine living wage, public ownership, industrial activism and tax justice. Such a populist campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.

    Greece, in other words.

  48. DBC: Fascism =socialism

    However, despite the wrong reasons you got the right answer.

    A first and well-done.

  49. abacab,

    > As would the anti-semitism

    To be fair, that’s very popular on both sides. All sides, even.

    DBC,

    > the extreme Right has hardly been consistent

    Who said they had?

    Although it’s been easy to conflate the Left and the EU-philes for the last couple of decades, it hasn’t been that simple, as Tony Benn amply illustrated. What we’re noticing here isn’t really the new-found Euroscepticism of the Left; it’s the new-found Euroscepticism of people who have devoted considerable effort to branding all Euroscepticism as ignorant knuckle-dragging mentally defficient fascistic racism. A lot of those people are on the Right. (Or at least claim to be. David Cameron, for instance — although, to be fair, he still hasn’t adopted Euroscepticism. So an arsehole, but not yet hypocritical. On this issue, at least.)

    The Left do have the extra distinction, though, of suddenly blaming the entire project on the Right. Apparently, the Euro was Thatcher’s fault. Which, if true, might just have to go down as history’s greatest double-bluff.

  50. theoldgreenfascist

    DBC REED
    Agree with you entirely. I voted against membership in 1975 and have been consistent about leaving ever since. It is the right which flip flops. Thatcher campaigned for going in in 1975. It’s time the right’s revisionism was exposed for what it is.

  51. > Thatcher campaigned for going in in 1975. It’s time the right’s revisionism was exposed for what it is.

    Well, sure. So get exposing: show us some quotes from people on the Right claiming that Thatcher was against EEC membership. Or EC membership. (I honestly don’t even remember whether the switch to “EU” was during her time as PM.)

    She was, however, consistently against the Euro, on the grounds that it would lead to… well, to exactly what it’s just led to. And she was accused of ignorant xenophobic etc etc for her trouble, by the same people who are now blaming her for the Euro.

  52. Hahahaha Do any right wingers not say that we would be happy with a Europe wide free market which was what the deal was in 1975? (I can’t be sure of the exact nature then; I wasn’t born). It’s what it has become over the last couple of decades which is what I’m against and all the lefties loved until about last week. I doubt a return to the ’75 deal would raise much argument here.

  53. Sorry, also:

    > I voted against membership in 1975 and have been consistent about leaving ever since. It is the right which flip flops.

    You’re comparing one person (yourself) with the entire Right here. Absurd. There are left-wingers who have changed their minds. There are right-wingers who have been consistent. So what?

    Besides, I can’t be having with the media’s obsession with U-turns, as if unwavering consistency is the gold standard of leadership. Changing one’s mind in the light of changing circumstances is what intelligent people do. I’d like to see more of it in politics. So some people who supported the EEC in the 70s oppose the EU today? Good. Anyone who treats the two organisations as the same thing is an obvious moron.

    But there is a difference between merely disagreeing with people and insulting them. The latter is what the EU’s fans, especially those on the Left, have been doing. So it is understandable that a certain amount of crow-eating be demanded.

  54. I’d hazard a sally that there’s quite a difference between someone believing something in 1975 and believing something different now, and someone believing something diametrically opposite to what he believed last week, and who spent last week calling people fascists and racists for believing what he now believes this week.

  55. Sq2

    “To be fair, that’s very popular on both sides. All sides, even.”

    All I can say is that I’ve never met a right-of-centre anti-semite in the last 15-20 years but I’ve met many left-of-centre ones. OK, anecdata; but being jewish is increasingly seen as a religious category rather than a racial one.

  56. theoldgreenfascist

    Squander Two
    What’s your view then? You seem to be saying that Thatcher was pro EC/EEC but anti Euro. We are in the ECC. We are not in the Euro. What’s your problem?
    And of course I am comparing one person (me) with the entire right but that’s because I was trying to highlight what several commentators on this thread are doing – comparing one person with the entire left.

    Rob
    So changing your mind isn’t a problem. Would you let me know what is the decent interval between changing your mind and letting people know you have changed it?

  57. S2,

    EEC until 1993. EU after 2009.

    I can’t remember exactly what the EEC was like, but I don’t think I’d have much trouble going back to it. I’ll gladly have some loose parliament with limited powers which is about ensuring freeish trade across Europe, common measures, even as far as common standards for product safety.

    What’s pissing the left off is that thought the EU was their best bet for getting the sort of anti-neoliberalist views into power and have now realised that that isn’t going to happen, that people like Merkel (and most of the Euro nations) are just not going to keep pouring money into EuroVenezeula and are now demanding the sort of things that Thatcher did (the protectionism of their pharmacies are even worse than the spectacles market here in the 80s).

  58. TOGF

    about the same as the period of mourning for a family member. Plus the real point, which I’m surprised you missed, is that he and his fellow travellers have been insulting people for years for holding this very same opinion, even insinuating that holding that opinion was a sign of mental illness and certainly one of latent fascist tendencies.

    So, is Owrn the teenager now mentally ill and/or borderline fascist? If not, what has changed?

  59. @Ironman,

    Tim wants Greece out of the euro. That means that all the Greek peoples’ euros get turned into new drachma, which would be worth at best estimates about half of one euro each, before we embark on the inflationary money printing that will happen thereafter in order to even meet those liabilities. That amounts to dispossession of Greeks who own euros in favour of people, who already spent those euros belonging to other people, over and over again.

    The leftits want anyone who has been stupid enough to produce and accumulate to be dispossessed in favour of the feckless, in all times and all places. This is just a more extreme version of the “dispossess the prudent in favour of feckless Greek governments” position. Those governments, ironically, being where they are because they played socialism until they ran out of the future’s money.

    I can’t see much more than a cigarette paper between these two positions in terms of its immediate effect on productive Greeks (beyond that Tim would not have had a euro in the first place, which just means the dispossession would have happened more gradually over the last 17 years).

  60. So Much for Subtlety

    Ironman – “Here we go again! The free speech gang and it’s straw man supression. Nobody shut Nick Griffin up; they stopped voting for the arsehole.”

    Well no. They threw him in a police cell and put him on trial for something he said. In a pub I believe. How is that not, you know, shutting him up? We will put you on trial for something you said, but don’t fear, you are free to say whatever you like without fear of many consequences?

    You do know what free speech means don’t you?

    “I’ve just insisted on responding. It’s the response you don’t like. It’s the response always induces the cry of “free speech”.”

    As my other sock puppet Mr Ecks so neatly points out, you may respond but you don’t argue. You simply shout a lot and swear. Big frickin’ deal. That does not bring forward a cry of free speech. When the EU, and all the other people like you, try to suppress free speech, that does.

    “Feel free to consider this a great debating victory you Thick.Racist.Prick”

    I shall, I shall.

  61. theoldgreenfascist

    Rob
    Owen Jones appears to have been somewhat of a Eurosceptic for at least the last four years or so. It is true that he referred to “knuckle dragging” but this appears not to refer to Euroscepticisism but rather to neoliberal right wingers. I can’ t fault him on that.

  62. Biggie: Been taking ramblin’ lessons much?

    The euro is not the” Greek peoples euro” but toilet paper put out by the EU. Yes the Greeks have been fucked by the Greek state but that is what the state is all about. Drac-mas would be worth less than the euro as a reflection of the real economic state of Greece –ie shit-creeked.

    ” before we embark on the inflationary money printing that will happen thereafter in order to even meet those liabilities. ”

    “We” aren’t embarking on anything. You are prob right that the Greek fuckup-meisters will print dracs –but they shouldn’t. That will make things worse. The Greeks will have to suffer on the way back to health. Greece is bankrupt, cannot pay and should default tho’ the heavens fall.

    “amounts to dispossession of Greeks who own euros in favour of people, who already spent those euros belonging to other people, over and over again”

    WTF does that mean? The euros were lent by banks etc on the surety of scummy states. The Greek state pissed the same up against the wall benefitting some, but by no means all Greeks. Had the banks been certain that any losses would be borne by themselves alone they most likely would not have lent the money. Sans the bullshit of the EU the only damage the Greek state could have done would be to the Greek population. That is after all what states really do: damage the peoples they lord it over.

    “The leftits want anyone who has been stupid enough to produce and accumulate to be dispossessed in favour of the feckless” True–but what has it to do with Greece? Beyond the fact that states are arse-raping everyone on Earth to a greater or lesser degree.

    “This is just a more extreme version of the “dispossess the prudent in favour of feckless Greek governments” position. Those governments, ironically, being where they are because they played socialism until they ran out of the future’s money.”

    Who are talking about here? Who are the prudent? The gladhanding pass-it-out fuckwits of the EU? All western governments are playing socialism and spending the future’s money (“your (grand)children’s money/future” as Stephen Molyneux correctly puts it). Political and bureaucratic scum both Greek and EU are to blame for the mess. But since you approve of the EU’s tinpot tyranny what’s your point?

  63. Dongguan John,

    The deal in 1975 (actually 1973) was always going to end up where we are today, except that the UK should be in the Eurozone and paying more. The utterly vile Ted Heath knew that as that smug, punchable face assured the British people on the day of entry that any fears that ‘we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty’ were ‘completely unjustified’.

    Knowledge of the true nature of the project to forge an indissoluble European union went back to Macmillan and included Wilson. These bastards knew that the political objectives of the project would be problematical to sell to the British public so they chose the typical politician’s solution, lie.

    Their hope was that by the time the British people woke up to the reality of European union it would be too late.

  64. The Meissen Bison

    togf: but this appears […] to refer to […] neoliberal right wingers.

    I wonder what you understand by ‘neoliberal’ and what terminology you used before the term was created. I only ask because you are old as well as being green and a fascist so you may have had some way to express the same ideas in times past.

    The puzzling thing for an outsider is how people forge neologisms in the semantic foundry of the Revolution which slip straight into the jargon of sloganeering without ever having acquired any meaning on the way.

    Is neoliberal, neo-liberal, an example of this or does it really mean anything?

  65. DocBud,

    Thanks.

    “Their hope was that by the time the British people woke up to the reality of European union it would be too late.”

    Seems they won that bet.

  66. @Ecks, so the Greeks should print drachmas (to debase their currency by leaving the euro because devaluation is good for them) but then shouldn’t print drachmas to debase their currency because devaluation is bad? What fucking substances are you on?

    Of course Greece has to default. Leftists [groan] like me have been saying this for about five years – they even took that advice a few years back, but not enough. The argument is about whether exiting the euro at the same time is worth the hassle.

  67. BinG

    I see Mr Ecks has handed you an economics lesson in his.own language; consider yourself instructed.

    I did once say that if there was a case for the Euro you would be able to make it. You haven’t, so…

    I’m afraid equating exchange rate movements with dispossession just won’t do. ALL people using a devalued currency have suffered a loss of purchasing power whether or not they have deposits in banks. The next wage packet of a man with no savings is worth ‘less’. So what? He still has a job. Because either the price or the quantity, or perhaps a price on another market, will adjust. The Euro requires ‘competitiveness’ to be achieved through ‘internal devaluations’, ‘labour market adjustments’, meaning mass unemployment, even higher youth unemployment, massive levels of emigration, nations with entire generations hollowed out of their bodies. The social costs have been worse than horrendous. I’m sorry, but depostors’ accounts losing value against other currencies; just doesn’t even begin to compare.

  68. TOGF,

    > What’s your view then? You seem to be saying that Thatcher was pro EC/EEC but anti Euro. We are in the ECC. We are not in the Euro. What’s your problem?

    We’re not in the EEC or the EC; we’re in the EU, which I oppose. And I’m glad we’re not in the Euro.

    My problem, as I clearly explained, is that people on the Left have called anyone who opposes the EU or the Euro a knuckle-dragging moronic xenophobic racist fascist for the last couple of decades. No, not everyone on the Left, but it has been the dominant theme. And the exact same people who have been doing that are now not only opposing at least the Euro and often the EU, are not only claiming they always did, but are claiming that it is we who are to blame for the whole mess.

    I’m not generally a Thatcherite and am perfectly happy to slag her off for various things she did. Blaming her for things she tried to stop is ridiculous.

  69. @BiG: the reason Greeks would have half their purchasing power removed if they return to the drachma, is because thats what their true purchasing power actually is. A fiat currency’s value is based on the actual (and to be fair perceived) productive capacity of the nation issuing it. The Greeks don’t have so much of that. The Germans (ironically) have a fair bit. If they left the euro and issued a new Reichsmark, oops sorry, Deutschmark, they would suddenly be a lot wealthier. All the euro does is smooth over those variances. Leave the euro, go back to what you truly deserve on your own efforts. Which in Greece’s case is not much. At the moment they are leaching off others productive capacity, this may not be able to continue much longer.

  70. BinG

    Actually Jim’s answer nails it. If Greek depositors would be “dispossessed” by a devaluation, the corollary is German depostors are currently dispossessed.

  71. Ironman,

    My case for the euro is that the small, volunteer-run, Europe-wide professional association that I am finance director of, would have finance costs about 15 times our current costs if there were no euro.

    Multiply that by 300 million citizens and their endeavours. The euro is a basically a cost-saving, cross-border-trade-promoting project.

  72. German taxpayers are on the hook whether Greece returns to the Drachma or not, because those debts cannot be repaid and will not be repaid. Much of the aggro in Brussels is about trying to make it look like they will eventually be repaid so as not to irritate northern European voters.

  73. > Anne’s pointy elbows

    S2,

    EEC until 1993. EU after 2009.

    I can’t remember exactly what the EEC was like, but I don’t think I’d have much trouble going back to it.

    Booker and North wrote “The Castle of Lies” back in the mid 90’s – exposing it back then for the monster that it already was.

  74. BinG

    I understand, many businesses find they need to use a single functional currency to reduce costs.
    Many don’t of course. And an entire nation on your border, Switzerland, somehow manages, somehow, to get by without even joining the EU let alone the Eurozone.

  75. BinG I’m still a bit of a Euro fan. It won’t make me popular in the comments section of British facing papers or blogs – but as an opinion it’s pretty typical of those who live around me. (and I suppose helps that our local economy is doing much better than Greecel)

    As you say there’s a business case that never seems to get aired any more – I still have memories of big currency fluctuations increasing or decrease profitability, as well as doing a considerable amount of margin on forex charges. I can also remember buying a TV for the equivalent of about €2.3k when at the time it cost about £1k in the UK – as a tiny nation with limited competition the local shops were very good at putting prices up when the Lira weakened, but not very good at putting them back down again when it strengthened.

    Anyway, obviously Greece has suffered in the EZ – but hopefully it will stand as an example to other EZ Governments to fucking behave themselves.

  76. Biggie: The absence of the euro would put up your finance costs 15 times ?. What % of your total costs are your finance costs and how do these extra costs break down?

    And as for the debts owed to German banks that is down to political scum and numbnuts bankers. The German people have every right to be just as angry with them as with the Greeks. They won’t get their money back, true. But had the EU never existed that money would most likely never have been lent out in the first place. Certainly not to deadbeats like the Greek state. It might well have been lent to ordinary businesses who would have prospered and paid it back with due interest. Prospering Europe likewise without advancing the agenda of the evil state.

  77. “My case for the euro is that the small, volunteer-run, Europe-wide professional association that I am finance director of, would have finance costs about 15 times our current costs if there were no euro.”

    Nobody believes this BiG, not even you.

    When a clever man finds himself typing this sort of obvious bollocks, it’s time to rethink.

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