Skip to content

Well, yes, I suppose so

Sally Bratton, who sits on the board of the Health Services Association for Californian Community Colleges, which represents two million students on 112 campuses, said: ‘These contracts are a very good idea. They take away any doubt or misunderstanding, which is one of the leading causes of accusations of sexual assault. When you have apps like Tinder making sex purely recreational, why not have an app or contract to protect yourself?’ But Jasmin Enriquez, 23, who was date-raped as a student at Pennsylvania State University, branded sex contracts ‘pure evil’, saying: ‘They are nothing more than stunts and money-generating schemes which distract from the real issue which is education. We need to educate students of both sexes. Informed consent is an ongoing, shifting process which cannot be encapsulated in a contract. A contract fails to safeguard a woman who might change her mind after signing it.’

And it might protect that bloke who thought that yes meant yes as well.

Rather the point isn’t it?

54 thoughts on “Well, yes, I suppose so”

  1. Isn’t this worthless in court if the woman says she changed her mind between agreeing and actually having sex? Is a formal contract agreeing to have sex legally binding? Given we know that a woman can consent to sex and then withdraw that consent during sex I’d say any such contract, videoed or written, won’t help a man accused of rape one bit.

  2. Does a contract not need a consideration to be paid, albeit as small as a peppercorn, to be valid?

  3. @jim

    Yes,quite right. As consent is supposed to be an ongoing process, to show the presence or absence of consent would require the recording of the entire act. As this then opens people up to the danger of this being used for embarrassment /blackmail, in practical terms you’d need an app that encrypts the video so that video can only be decrypted by having both the private key of the owner, AND a private key held by the police for if the evidence is needed. Obviously there’s a bit more to it than that in practice, but it is possible. Would have to be open source to keep people’s confidence though, so could only be done as a public service /volunteer run project, no money to be made from it.

  4. Informed consent is an ongoing, shifting process which cannot be encapsulated in a contract. A contract fails to safeguard a woman who might change her mind after signing it.

    It’s exactly this type of cant about “yes doesn’t always mean yes” that we’re trying to stop as it undermines genuine rape cases. The same goes for “post-coital regret” (i.e. “he raped me because my boyfriend found out”) or “matrimony rape” (i.e. “he raped me because he refused to marry me”) a delicacy in the Indian sub-continent.

    The more SJW’s push their misandrist viewpoint, the more they alienate the wider public and men in particular.

  5. “In the SJW world, consent can be withdrawn at any time”

    I’m completely ok with that and I’d hope that you would be too. Or do you think that someone shouldn’t be able to withdraw their consent during sex?

    “even after the event.”

    Citation please.

  6. ‘“post-coital regret” (i.e. “he raped me because my boyfriend found out”)’

    That’s a scummy thing to do, but have you got any examples where it was actually brought to court? Because as far as I know, the times when that’s happened are vanishingly rare compared to the times when a woman has withdrawn consent while there’s still time and the guy has kept going anyway.

    But yes, if a girl does pull that stunt then she should at the least be prosecuted for wasting police time.

  7. But Jasmin Enriquez, 23, who was date-raped as a student at Pennsylvania State University, branded sex contracts ‘pure evil’

    That is truly awful. I was curious about whether her rapist faced justice, so did a quick Google…

    Unfortunately, it seems she wasn’t just raped once, but twice! Before she was 18!

    During my senior year of high school I was raped by someone I was dating at the time. As a student in a private Catholic school, I felt I did not have the support from the faculty and staff to reach out for help because I didn’t think any of them would believe me. I thought the faculty and staff would blame my actions instead of the actions of the person who raped me. I moved on and tried to leave the past behind me.

    I suppose it’s possible that a boy at a private Catholic school might rape, and it’s possible a young girl might worry about not being believed, but what are the odd she’d be raped again? And fail to inform the police, again?

    Unfortunately, during my first year of college at Penn State, I was raped, again.

    Facepalm.gif

    Now, pay attention to this bit, because here’s where it gets interesting:

    This time I was in a fraternity house close to campus. I was assaulted by someone I genuinely trusted and spent a lot of my time with. While sitting in a Women’s Studies class, a woman from the local women’s resource center did a presentation about acquaintance rape. At that moment I was able to identify what happened to me. I always knew something felt very wrong about both situations but at the time I didn’t think it was rape.

    Womens Studies, eh?

    Anybody with a passing familiarity with what Womens Studies teaches girls knows that it’s a field utterly dominated by radfem lesbians who define all heterosexual sex as “rape”.

    Is it an amazing coinkydink that she suddenly decided she was raped – twice-raped! – after attending a Womens Studies lecture?

    As far as coinkydinks go, that’s like suddenly realising the universe is secretly controlled by alien ghosts – after attending a Scientology meeting.

    So what’s really going on here? Is Miss Enriquez a rape-magnet and serial forgetter of the existence of the criminal justice system?

    Or…

    BTW, it costs between $35,000 and $47,000 a year to send your daughter to the rape factory that is Penn State University.

    Also BTW, Miss Enriquez appears to be trying to set herself up as a sort of professional rape awareness spokeslady. No word yet on whether she’s found the number for 911.

  8. Matthew L,

    Splitting that statement into two parts is very much taking the piss, it existed only in it’s whole context. As for citations, just spend more that 30 seconds listening to any of the outpourings of the SJW’s powering this movement.

  9. How dull do you have to be to write a contract for sex? Is this like every time? You get a bit frisky with a girl at a party, are you going to go home and print out a contract to sign? Do you need to get a list of available acts “the female partner consents to tops and fingers and dry humping”.

  10. This time I was in a fraternity house close to campus. I was assaulted by someone I genuinely trusted and spent a lot of my time with. While sitting in a Women’s Studies class, a woman from the local women’s resource center did a presentation about acquaintance rape. At that moment I was able to identify what happened to me. I always knew something felt very wrong about both situations but at the time I didn’t think it was rape.

    Womens Studies, eh?

    Anybody with a passing familiarity with what Womens Studies teaches girls knows that it’s a field utterly dominated by radfem lesbians who define all heterosexual sex as “rape”.

    Is it an amazing coinkydink that she suddenly decided she was raped – twice-raped! – after attending a Womens Studies lecture?

    As far as coinkydinks go, that’s like suddenly realising the universe is secretly controlled by alien ghosts – after attending a Scientology meeting.

    So what’s really going on here? Is Miss Enriquez a rape-magnet and serial forgetter of the existence of the criminal justice system?

    The sentence immediately following what you chose to quote says, “I thought rape only happened when a scary, bearded, old guy jumped out of the bushes and kidnapped someone.”

    Something many people believe – they don’t think circumstances can constitute rape if the people are friends or intimates.

  11. UKLiberty: ‘Something many people believe – they don’t think circumstances can constitute rape if the people are friends or intimates.’

    Back in 1910, you might have been right. But she doesn’t look that old to me…

  12. If this catches on, the men of the educated middleclasses might just as well give up on sex except the paid kind because at least the contract for services is explicit, no pay without delivery.

  13. Ukliberty – yes, it’s entirely possible that an upper-middle-class American millenial might have been innocent of the knowledge that men putting their penises in her vagina without consent will is rape.

    Until one fateful day in a Womens Studies lecture, naturally.

    I suppose it’s also possible that some of those kids who were coaxed by eager social workers into revealing their repressed memories really were molested by satanic cults, too.

    You seem like a trusting chap. Can I interest you in buying a bridge?

  14. “Don’t be silly, Darling. Fred’s just here to video the action to make sure that we stick to the contract and no-one changes their mind.”

    “No, of course the vid won’t find its way onto the internet.”

    “No, dear. His tee shirt says Coed Cont dot com. It stands for coed contracts.”

    “Yes he does have to get in close down there. It’s a vital part of the deal… Er contract… Er…”

    “I’m sorry dear. I thought one of your groans was a no, so I pulled out immediately. It’s just unfortunate that it went off all over your face.”

  15. ‘“post-coital regret” (i.e. “he raped me because my boyfriend found out”)’

    That’s a scummy thing to do, but have you got any examples where it was actually brought to court?

    Quite a few in the last few years, hears a recent one:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/girl-who-cried-rape-after-5406386

    A girl who falsely accused two army soldiers of trying to rape her because she felt ashamed about sleeping with them both has been jailed.

    Nicole Richess, 20, had a drunken threesome with the two servicemen at a friend’s house and then her own home at the end of a night out.

    The following day her boyfriend heard rumours she had been unfaithful and confronted her.

    Just google “cried rape after boyfriend found out” and there are loads more…

  16. “it’s possible a young girl might worry about not being believed, but what are the odd she’d be raped again? And fail to inform the police, again?”

    You could ask a friend of mine, who was raped by four men. Once by her uncle when she was 8 – she told her parents, they didn’t believe her.

    Once when she was 15, at knifepoint by the son of the local sheriff. She lives in small-town Alabama. She didn’t report that one, can’t really blame her.

    Many, many times by her boyfriend who just laughed at her when she said she didn’t want to have sex, pushed something heavy against the door and did it anyway. Eventually she gave up and just let him do it because it hurt less that way. She tried dumping him – it didn’t work, he wouldn’t accept it. Her parents thought he was a nice boy and let him into the house so she couldn’t hide from him, and after not being believed about her uncle she was strangely reluctant to tell them what was happening.

    And once by her best friend who gave her a lift home one night and stopped to confess that he’d always been in love with her and couldn’t understand why she stayed with her boyfriend when he would be so much nicer to her – and then made her take her clothes off and raped her in the back of his pickup truck.

    So tell me again, Steve – what *are* the odds that a young, vulnerable, traumatised girl could be raped more than once and not inform the police?

  17. John Galt: Ah, so she was prosecuted and jailed for it. Good. Doesn’t really do much for the position that it’s an epidemic we should be panicking about, does it?

  18. Steve, it may come as a surprise to you that there are many ignorant or misinformed people out there, even “upper-middle-class American millenials”…

  19. Doesn’t really do much for the position that it’s an epidemic we should be panicking about, does it?

    You asked for an example that went before the courts, I gave you one.

    Now you say one swallow doesn’t make a summer. Fair enough. Use the google search I gave you (Google “cried rape after boyfriend found out”) and even under that very specific search criteria you’ll find lots more.

    I’m not saying this happens everyday, but it is the counterargument to SJW’s claim that “Women never lie about rape” and #ibelieveher bullshit.

  20. Matthew L – what *are* the odds that a young, vulnerable, traumatised girl could be raped more than once and not inform the police?

    If she’s a child, particularly one raised in poverty by a single mother? Higher than average. We saw it in Rotherham.

    An upper middle class American who went to private school and a pricey college? Lower than average.

    Ukliberty – sure, but we’ve heard this song before, have we not? Heard it a lot, in fact. Especially from girls minoring in Womens Studies. American colleges are currently going through a rape panic that closely resembles the 1980’s satanic panic.

    Colour me sceptical, especially since this self-appointed warrior against “rape culture” has done precisely nothing to bring her alleged college rapist to justice. BTW, the statute of limitations on rape in Pennsylvania is 12 years. Her most recent alleged rape happened in 2009 or 2010.

    She’s finding time to do the following:

    * Attended a meeting and an event on two separate occasions at the White House to work with the Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault under the Office of the Vice President
    * Interviewed with local, national, and international media corporations in English and Spanish including Marie Claire, The Chronicles of Higher Education, BBC Mundo, Mundo Fox, Telesur, Univisión, La Opinión, and El País
    * Fundraised $1,300 in 48 hours to cover travel expenses from San Diego, CA to Washington D.C. through social media to attend meeting with White House Senior Administration
    * Use social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to connect with over 900 combined followers across the world
    * Track and analyze Google Analytics to reach a larger population and understand web-flow and visitor demographics
    * Maintain inventory of materials, manage digital storefront, and coordinate distribution of the materials
    * Presented to Greek Life students and incoming first-year students to open dialogue about sexual violence
    * Lobbied student government to allocate $6,000 in 2012 and $26,000 in 2013 to provide financial support for the Sexual Violence Awareness Week of activities, a 433% increase
    * Collaborated with over 15 student groups and local and national organizations to bring the week together
    * Planned, executed, and participated in events including: the first annual Rock Against Rape, Walk a Mile in Her Shoes, Take Back the Night, documentary screenings, discussion panels, local fundraising, and campus outreach

    …but apparently is content to let the fraternity boy who raped her remain at large.

    Maybe it was Haven Monahan, the Scarlet Pimpernel of rapists.

  21. “SJW’s claim that “Women never lie about rape” and #ibelieveher bullshit.”

    SJWs don’t claim that. The position is, I believe, that we should give rape victims the benefit of the doubt to start with. That seams a reasonable position given the numbers of rapes vs false accusations.

    Steve: Have you ever talked to a rape survivor? It’s not as simple as “if she’s not a quivering wreck she’s obviously lying about it”. The friend I talked about, you’d never know she’d been raped unless she told you or you saw her freeze in terror at certain triggers. Even then you might not notice the freezing reaction unless you were looking for it. She’s quite accomplished, a top student at her school, just been appointed drum major of the marching band. Doesn’t mean that stuff didn’t happen to her, it’s just that human beings are good at compartmentalising trauma.

  22. The Meissen Bison

    Adrian: Here’s Godfrey Elfwick’s take on it….

    Well it’s all in the name, really. You wouldn’t expect an Elfwick to have a normal position on matters sexual, would you?

  23. “The position is, I believe, that we should give rape victims the benefit of the doubt to start with.”
    The person given “the benefit of the doubt” is the accused, aka presumption of innocence.
    ” Have you ever talked to a rape survivor?”
    Have you ever talked to a false rape accusation survivor?
    Rape is a horrible thing, like all assaults on the person. But let’s not use that as an excuse for bad justice.

  24. Colour me sceptical, especially since this self-appointed warrior against “rape culture” has done precisely nothing to bring her alleged college rapist to justice. BTW, the statute of limitations on rape in Pennsylvania is 12 years. Her most recent alleged rape happened in 2009 or 2010.

    I recall much criticism in this parish of formal allegations made years after alleged sexual offences.

  25. Surreptitious Evil

    “SJW’s claim that “Women never lie about rape” and #ibelieveher bullshit.”

    SJWs don’t claim that.

    No, that’s exactly what they claim.

    The position is, I believe, that we should give rape victims the benefit of the doubt to start with.

    No, you’ve not even got the sensible position accurately stated.

    All allegations of crime, particularly violent crime against the person (I am content, if not happy, that low level damage property crimes, might merely be recorded) should be treated seriously and investigated to see if there is sufficient evidence that a full and formal investigation is justified.

    You always treat complainants with a degree of professional scepticism. Even if they are genuine survivors of traumatic assault, that actually makes their evidence less reliable. Even it is honest.

    You don’t necessarily let them know that, though. That’s one of the things about being a professional investigator.

  26. “SJW’s claim that “Women never lie about rape”

    Sorry SE, that’s right up there with “neoliberals claim that the invisible hand of the market fixes all problems”. You might be able to find some lunatic who said it, or some out of context quote that makes it look like that’s what was meant, but nobody sensible takes that literally. It’s so easy to find a counterexample, how could anyone claim that?

    “The person given “the benefit of the doubt” is the accused, aka presumption of innocence.”

    No, because at the point we’re talking about there is no accused. When I say that rape victims should be given the benefit of the doubt to start with, I’m talking about “did a rape occur”. When you convert “person or persons of interest” to “Bob Smith” then sure, the presumption of innocence becomes vitally important.

    And yes, as SE says it’s important to keep the idea that the accusation was falsified in mind, but it’s also important to remember just how rare false accusations are compared to actual rapes.

    I’m also skeptical of just how much of this is due to a noble and high-minded attention to the presumption of innocence because I don’t see other crimes treated like this. Where’s the outcry about false accusations of assault or kidnapping?

  27. “Have you ever talked to a false rape accusation survivor?”

    As a matter of fact, I’ve been accused of sexual assault by an ex-flatmate. It was obvious that she was full of it and once everyone contributed their version, the matter was dropped. I make a habit of getting full and enthusiastic consent instead of relying on “well she didn’t say no” so I was never in any danger of not being believed.

  28. More statistics…

    http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

    But I don’t think anyone really knows, because in most cases there’s no physical evidence (of intercourse, yes, but not of lack of consent) and it’s one person’s word against another. I’m sure that evidence-free rapes *do* happen, but the point is that by definition we can’t know.

    But if everyone knows that there are no penalties for making a false accusation, or a false claim to have been a victim (even a numerically-improbable multiple-times victim), but you got a lot of sympathy and attention if you did, why wouldn’t some people make such claims? It’s a bit like guys claiming to be in the SAS, or people claiming to have seen a ghost, or to have been probed by aliens – instant kudos amongst a certain gullible set. The more unprovable, and the more socially unacceptable any hint of scepticism is, the better.

    (We have the ‘presumption of innocence’ for a reason. Accusations are cheap.)

    Basically, it comes down to a belief that women can never be bad people – malicious or stupid or attention-seeking or immature. Everyday sexism.

  29. “But if everyone knows that there are no penalties for making a false accusation”

    Fortunately that’s not true so we don’t have to worry about it.

  30. “Fortunately that’s not true so we don’t have to worry about it.”

    The same principle applies the other way round, too. In essence, in any rape accusation where the alleged rapist denies it, the alleged victim is being accused of having made a false allegation. The same presumption of innocence applies. Unless it is positively proved beyond reasonable doubt that the allegation is false, she shouldn’t get jailed, and unless there’s a reasonable chance a jury would convict on the evidence, she shouldn’t get charged.

    And because, as I just said, there’s generally no physical evidence of consent or its lack and it’s one person’s word against another’s, it’s almost always the case that “false allegation” is unprovable.

    And everybody knows it.

    But if you want to call back after that girl in the Rolling Stone case gets jailed for a comparable term to a rape case, I’ll be happy to reconsider…

  31. “That’s a very strange way of looking at it, NIV. I’d like to see what a lawyer thinks of that reasoning.”

    Standard ‘presumption of innocence’ argument. Any lawyer would agree.

    “109 women prosecuted for false rape claims in five years, say campaigners”

    Which proves my point. In only a tiny minority of cases is the evidence incontrovertible enough to prosecute. For the vast majority of accusations, there’s no cost.

    To quote from your article: “There have been cases in Australia where people have been accused, then nothing ever happens to the accuser, even though the police believe the report is indeed false.”

    ““This can be hugely problematic and has led to many personal and professional issues for the accused [including suicide], even when the police have proven that they did nothing wrong and are not a sex offender,” she said.”

    But do tell me, since you’re back so fast, how much time did that Rolling Stone girl get? Five years? Ten years?

  32. “But do tell me, since you’re back so fast, how much time did that Rolling Stone girl get? Five years? Ten years?”

    If you want to pick out one individual case to base your argument on, I’m sure I can find an equivalent case of someone getting off a rape with a ridiculously light sentence. The good news for you though is that she’s had her life thoroughly ruined, so the allegation wasn’t consequence free.

    “Which proves my point. In only a tiny minority of cases is the evidence incontrovertible enough to prosecute. For the vast majority of accusations, there’s no cost.”

    Then why aren’t the prisons full of falsely accused men? If there’s no consequences to a false accusation then surely more people would be doing it. You should try it – find an unpopular gay man to falsely accuse, see how much you enjoy the experience.

  33. “Then why aren’t the prisons full of falsely accused men?”

    What makes you think they aren’t?

    That 4th bullet point in that radar web page I linked is about a study of men jailed, often for many years, being subsequently found innocent by DNA evidence.

    But the simple answer is that it generally requires more than simply an accusation. That’s what the SJWs are complaining about – people are being accused and not getting jailed, which is why they’re trying to get rid of presumption of innocence for men. Apparently men getting found innocent due to lack of evidence is evidence of the patriarchal rape culture and must be stopped, or something…

  34. “I’m also skeptical of just how much of this is due to a noble and high-minded attention to the presumption of innocence because I don’t see other crimes treated like this. Where’s the outcry about false accusations of assault or kidnapping?”

    We don’t see mobs protesting for castration of the ‘accused’ for those other crimes like we did with the Duke guys now do we?

  35. How dull do you have to be to write a contract for sex?

    We used to do that. We called it ‘marriage’. Then the left said it was uncool, and anyone should be able to shag whenever they wanted without needing a piece of paper.

    It’s a funny old world where the ‘progressive’, ‘radical’ left are demanding ‘no sex before contract’, while the ‘conservative’ right oppose it. Even funnier that anyone takes the SJWs at all seriously.

  36. The feminist SJWs are so contradictory.

    They claim that many rapes are not prosecuted (I’m sure that’s true) and that in many rape prosecutions a guilty rapist is let off (probably true too although not to the extent they believe). They then use this in an attempt to undermine the justice system and have as many men put away as possible.

    However, when the counter point of false claims is made the number of prosecutions is the figure they use to show how infrequent that is.

    Dicks.

  37. “Then why aren’t the prisons full of falsely accused men?”

    For one thing, the justice system doesn’t (yet) operate the way the SJWs want it to – it still requires evidence and offers the accused the presumption of innocence. Hence the preference for a lot of these “rape survivors” like “Jackie” and Mattress Girl to avoid the criminal justice system altogether and seek redress through campus kangaroo courts and/or through the media.

  38. Then why aren’t the prisons full of falsely accused men?

    Because Britain still has juries, who refuse to convict (oddly enough, from what I’ve read, women are significantly less likely to convict in rape cases than men). Which is why the SJWs want to eliminate juries for rape cases, because the conviction rate is ‘too low’.

  39. Mathew L
    “I’m also skeptical of just how much of this is due to a noble and high-minded attention to the presumption of innocence because I don’t see other crimes treated like this. Where’s the outcry about false accusations of assault or kidnapping?”

    You may be skeptical but the law is not. And neither am I-this is a “bad faith” argument and does you no credit.

    “so I was never in any danger of not being believed.”-not the same thing is it?

    Presumption of innocence-if you agree with this then what are you saying ? That rape, like every other allegation of violent crime, shld be taken seriously and the alleged facts investigated? Who has ever argued against this?

  40. Matthew L: ‘Where’s the outcry about false accusations of assault or kidnapping?’

    Did you miss the incident just last week with the woman who claimed a security guard in Primark tore her nursing baby from her tit? Turns out to be bollocks. I hope Primark sues the deranged cow.

    These people are mentally ill attention seekers. We shouldn’t be mounting our white chargers and drawing our swords.

  41. Matthew L – your friend who claims she was raped four times is clearly a fantasist. If you can’t see this there’s very little hope for you

  42. In essence, in any rape accusation where the alleged rapist denies it, the alleged victim is being accused of having made a false allegation.

    It’s not necessarily deliberately false, though; two people can have honest and reasonable different beliefs about the same circumstances, something that is explicitly provided for in English law in terms of consent.

  43. @ Interested
    That’s coming on a bit strong. Matthew L’s account is a lot more plausible than that of Ms Enriquez

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *