Well, you know…..

“I want the UK to stay in the EU, and I cannot even imagine an EU without the UK. I don’t want to imagine it,” he said.
“In particular, for us it’s not good because the UK is a partner promoting a free-market economy, much more than the southern hemisphere in Europe. [Some of these countries] want to have a more state-regulated economy, and the UK is more like us, for instance, like Holland and the northern hemisphere, so we would not be very happy to see it go.”
Mr Fuchs described Brussels as a “huge” bureaucracy that needed to be scaled back. “I fully agree with certain statements of [Prime Minister] David Cameron saying that Brussels need not be such a huge bureaucracy, with so much red tape.
“That’s quite important, I think, and we need Cameron’s help to change it.”

Why not just tell the bureaucrats to fuck off yourselves?

Or, if they insist om the bureaucracy, leave yourselves?

And if the system as a whole is always going to move toward a more statist, bureaucratic, system as a result of the inevitable compromises with said Latins, why have the organisation at all?

29 thoughts on “Well, you know…..”

  1. So Much for Subtlety

    “That’s quite important, I think, and we need Cameron’s help to change it.”

    Actually as BiS mentioned the other day, they had their chance but they do not need Cameron’s help. They needed Wellington’s. Britain could have ruled from Ireland to the Urals. Well the Vistula. They should have picked the right side then.

  2. Bloke in Germany

    That Brussels thing, that’s the bureaucracy with fewer bureaucrats than Birmingham?

    And as for bureaucracy, when did Brussels last make you fill in a form for Brussels? Anyone here? Ever?

  3. Bloke in North Dorset

    If the German’s stopped kow towing to the French it might help.

    BiG, its not the number of bureaucrats that’s the problem, per se, its the power they have, and use, to affect our everyday lives.

    Do I have to fill out any forms to send to Brussels, not that I’m aware of. Is the power of my kettle and toaster limited because of the power of Brussels, yes.

    But its not about trivia, look at the mess they’ve made in Greece in pursuit of their pipe dream.

  4. Bloke in Germany

    So out of the EU no one will make any rules about your toaster or kettle? You will be able to have a Free English Kettle?

    Look at the mess the Americans have made in Puerto Rico in pursuit of their pipe dream. It must be time to break up the dollar and dismantle the USA.

  5. “So out of the EU no one will make any rules about your toaster or kettle? You will be able to have a Free English Kettle?”

    More to the point if UK bureaucrats decide to invent some daft rule, we can vote out the politicians who rule them, and get new politicians to change the rules. We can’t vote out Brussels. Every single person could vote one way in the UK on a single European issue, and it would make not a jot of difference in Brussels if we are outvoted by the other members.

  6. Because it’s not as if the bureaucrats in Brussels cast any influence over the bureaucrats in Birmingham, (or London).

    So holding the Brussels bureaucrats in withering contempt does not preclude holding the Birmingham, (or London), chaps in as much, or more, derision.

  7. “Britain could have ruled from Ireland to the Urals. Well the Vistula.” Thank God Parliament never had any such ambition. Leave that to Frogs, Krauts, Russkies and proud Dons.

  8. Biggie:

    These cunts are unelected, unaccountable and filled with the grand old euro-tradition of tyranny.We have enough wannabe dictator scum of our own. The EU can shove all of it up their corpus juris arse and go fuch themselves.

  9. Oh Yeah:

    “It must be time to break up the dollar and dismantle the USA”

    Long past time the federal tyranny was gone.

  10. Bloke in North Dorset

    “Bloke in Germany
    July 5, 2015 at 9:52 am

    So out of the EU no one will make any rules about your toaster or kettle? You will be able to have a Free English Kettle?

    Look at the mess the Americans have made in Puerto Rico in pursuit of their pipe dream. It must be time to break up the dollar and dismantle the USA.”

    Yes, I would be able to have a Free English Kettle. And yes I know that manufacturers would have to manufacture to EU standards if they wanted to trade there, just like they have to manufacture to Japanese, USA, Chinese standards.

    What the USA has done in PR may or not be a pipe dream, it has little impact over UK. The EU does.

  11. We will hear more of this as the referendum approaches; “yes, the EU has gone the wrong way, we need British help to get it back on track”.

    Might have been believable if you had been shouting about a reform beforehand, but not now.

    Sorry, 20 years too late.

  12. Bloke in Germany

    @Jim,

    So you vote for the house of lords do you? Y’know, that democratic institution that has the final word on the laws that run your life?

  13. Biggie: Pathetic. The HoL doesn’t think up laws. And has often tried to disrupt and minimise the crap passed up by the HoC. It is a joy compared scum like the EU commission.

  14. BiG

    “that has the final word on the laws that run your life”

    I do hope that you know that that is complete nonsense?

    It’s been a very long time since the HoL could veto the Commons. Delay, temporarily obstruct, and all that, but not ultimately veto the ones that got themselves democratically elected.

    Not that it makes any difference when you look at the blithering ineptitude of our elected MPs, but that’s a different matter from the one you raised.

  15. @BiG: the House of Lords would never come up with such nonsense in the first place, certainly the old one wouldn’t have, being full of people with a bit of experience of life, often having been shot at, and know that there’s more to life than ever expanding books of regulations. Apart from which as you well know, the HoL has zero power to pass legislation that is not approved of by the elected MPs, so its role is entirely revisionary.

    Given half a chance I’d plump for rule by a hereditary HoL topped off with an absolute monarch, over the shower of Common Purpose scum we get as elected rulers.

    I also notice you completely sidestepped the point on the lack of democratic legitimacy of the EU, such lack being in fact its stated purpose – to push the European people together whether they like it or not.

  16. @BiG:

    > And as for bureaucracy, when did Brussels last make you fill in a form for Brussels? Anyone here? Ever?

    Every time I make a VAT return I’m filling in otherwise useless fields for Brussels’ benefit, I believe.

    And I tried hard in starting the microbusiness I’m involved in to avoid the enormous Eurostat returns it looked like would be demanded of me. Basically, by avoiding any perception of our buying from or selling to Europe, which I thought a shame. I can’t remember the details, it was something like twenty years ago I went through this.

    The new regulations on digitally delivered services make this all much worse, of course: when they’re extended to other transactions it’s going to be a disaster. As I understand it, we’ll have to get two independent forms of proof of each client’s country of operation. And refresh on each new invoice if it’s deemed out of date.

  17. much more than the southern hemisphere in Europe. [Some of these countries] want to have a more state-regulated economy

    The answer is to let them – by leaving the EU.

    If relatively free Single Market trade matters then commit to the 4 freedoms and stick to them. This can be done as individual nations or by creating a new competing body or by joining the EFTA but what you get is access to the single market for a fee, some influence on EU regulations, self-representation on the global stage and none of the unaccountable judicial and political extensions to the 4 freedoms that we are currently subject to.

  18. Is there a market for a UK kettle? Likely to get the same kettle produced for sale in EU?
    Maybe a UK kettle can be made to different specifications. Smaller run, higher unit price?
    Think last kettle I purchased was about £7. It boils water – pretty much what I want a kettle for.

  19. “It boils water – pretty much what I want a kettle for.”

    Wouldn’t you rather have one that can send e-mails (“they keep giving sugary sweets to the kids”), follow instructions to take a breather because the wind has dropped, or (and this is really clever) talk to the toaster so that it can coordinate your toasted sandwich with your hot drink…

    It’s all for your own good?

  20. Arthur Teacake

    You’re right. The whole MOSS fiasco (VAT) is all EU driven.

    That’s the point. So much of the regulatory garbage we enact is initiated by directives from the EU.

  21. Bloke in Germany

    @Arthur Teacake,

    I am staring into the abyss of my own VAT nightmare (having to register at some point shortly, timing likely to be driven by the digital content thing). I agree you could not invent a system more wantonly destructive of intra-EU trade.

    @Jim, there is no democratic deficit.
    The parliament is directly elected.
    The council of ministers is the – whoops – democratically elected heads of government of each country.
    The commission is people appointed by those – whoops- democratically elected national governments (your civil service is appointed too).

    So where is this famous democratic deficit?

    No Euroseptic has ever been able to explain to me which of those three bits is actually anti-democratic, because none of them are.

  22. @BiG:

    I think the point of the digital content thing is to pilot a switchover such that all goods and services end up liable for VAT at the customer country’s rate, not the vendor country’s rate.

    And the point of that is to cause a crisis. Inter-country trade becomes entirely impractical: large areas of commerce are crippled.

    So as an emergency measure, they can solve the problem they’ve created by withdrawing the reporting requirements — while imposing a uniform rate of VAT across Europe.

    That’s the only reason I can imagine for doing such an astonishingly stupid thing. Turns out it’s not stupid, it’s just evil.

  23. Bloke in Germany

    @Arthur Teacake,

    It has occurred to me that that was the purpose of the digital thing. But I think that attribtutes a degree of conspiratorial thinking to people who really aren’t capable of doing a proper conspiracy.

    Occam’s razor suggests the real reason for national collection of VAT at national rates is that the governments will never let go of that revenue (and there’s more of it than the EU could ever possibly use anyway). Thus we have a nearly-unworkable compromise of potentially having to report that tax into 28 different countries, and probably every other business in the EU is breaking the rules in some relatively minor way. It isn’t actually (theoretically) any different for traders outside the EU, AFAIK (except you are less likely to get pursued), but i am just beginning to get my head around this stuff. I have done a VAT inspection for a forrin revenue office, and we thankfully passed, despite having done half a million euro’s worth of business there (we have exemptions on most of our product, which are nice to have but will only complicate matters once we do sign up).

  24. @BiG:

    Exemptions? As in, exempt from VAT? Or zero-rated?

    It seems to me that making VAT-exempt supplies is a nightmare, because if I remember right you can’t reclaim the VAT you’ve paid on the relevant inputs, nor on some proportion of your inputs for the business as a whole, depending on how much of the business is dedicated to exempt supplies.

    Zero-rated products are fine because you can still reclaim the VAT you’ve paid.

    We got caught that way once because one of our clients found their product suddenly got reclassified as exempt. So they tried to push it down to their suppliers, saying hey, we’ll pay you the amount we agreed but now it includes VAT. We refused to accept the massive pay cut and they backed down; but it was the start of that contract going down the tubes.

    Re a uniform rate of VAT: They deeply want this. Sure, they’re incompetent, but there’ve got to be people chipping away at it. Don’t trust the bastards.

  25. Bloke in Germany

    @AT,

    Could be exempt or zero-rated, I am not sure. A mixture of the two most likely. Forrin VAT woman was at least convinced we didn’t owe her anything, so that was the end of the matter – we didn’t even get told if we had a technical obligation to make returns – there was no money outstanding and that was the last we heard.

    How we would calculate which of our inputs related to exempt sales, which to zero-rated sales, and which to VATable sales is a further complication that hadn’t yet occurred to me (in an already ludicrously complicated situation). I really need an expert to take a serious look at this, on behalf of an impoverished, non-profit, volunteer-run professional society. I am convinced we have the most complicated potential VAT situation anyone will have ever seen, certainly the complexity is utterly disproportionate to the size of the business.

  26. @BiG: yes, but we are but one voice among god knows how many and can be outvoted all the time, and frequently are. As I said every single person in the UK could vote one way on a single issue in a European election, and a General election, and it would have zero effect if the rest of Europe didn’t agree with us. Thats not democracy, thats rule by foreigners, and we’re fucked off with it.

    As an aside, so are the Greek, the Irish, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Italians and oddly enough the French too it seems. They don’t like being told what to do by the Germans either.

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