I dunno, heavy criticism?

The new Labour leader faced heavy criticism for standing in silence while God Save the Queen was played during a Battle of Britain remembrance ceremony at St Paul’s Cathedral attended by the Prime Minister, Defence Secretary and scores of military leaders.
Former military commanders as well as Labour and Tory MPs said he was “dishonourable” for refusing to sing the national anthem.
Mr Corbyn later insisted that he “stood in respectful silence” during the remembrance ceremony.

Well, obviously, they would. And there’s, among Jezzbollah, plenty who would applaud such a stance of sticking it to The Man.

But it wasn’t just The Sun which played up Foot’s donkey jacket at the Cenotaph, was it? Didn’t go down well woih working class England, let alone Middle, did it?

82 thoughts on “I dunno, heavy criticism?”

  1. It didn’t back then, no. Even the horniest-handed son of the toil was brought up to understand respect, and putting on a suit & tie for certain occasions (and not just because your solicitor told you to).

    But these days that generation – and, dare I say it, that attitude – is fast decreasing. Who knows if it’s still a tactic that will resonate with enough voters?

  2. I love that kind of spin – “stood in respectful silence”, including the part where it is considered respectful to sing and disresepectful to stand in silence.

    As I’ve said before, he’s such a jurassic ideologue that he can’t even control himself to play the damn game. Let’s hope he makes it to 2020, eh?

  3. Don’t see how not singing a dirge sing about one person from one family that makes no reference to this nations’ land or people past or present is ‘disrespectful’ to people we should be singing about in a national anthem who defended this land and its people in our darkest hours.

  4. At least he resisted the urge to spray paint “Fuck Tory Scum” on the whispering gallery. Give him his dues for that.

  5. Rob Harries, if you are really asking a serious question, the answer is ‘Because it’s the accepted thing to do when everyone else is doing it’.

  6. Part of being a leader is being seen to do the Done Thing, even if you don’t personally agree with it. It’s about playing the game, and about showing self-control and willingness to participate.

    If you don’t do that, people draw inferences.

  7. You don’t need to fuck about with “inferences”. Corby is a brazenly treasonous twat who would betray this country and sell all of us down the river in the blink of an eye.

    The same thing is true of Blueballs Camoron. At least Jezza is an obvious traitor.

  8. I see on Farcebook that the spin is definitely “dignified silence during the national anthem” which makes No F*cking Sense outside of the loonybubble.

    This is prep school level spin 🙂

  9. A certain Mr. A. Campbell must be cringing right now. Loathe him or loathe him, you can’t fault him for being good at what he did.

  10. I’m not so fussed by him not singing…it’s slightly better than mumbling along John Redwood style because you don’t know the words, but the thing that gets me is the way he dresses.

    I’ve seen school kids who dress more respectfully…in fact the way he dresses is very much like a teenage school kid who has been forced to go to a wedding / funeral by his parents and is going to be as childish as possible to show his displeasure.

  11. “very much like a teenage school kid who has been forced to go to a wedding / funeral by his parents and is going to be as childish as possible to show his displeasure.”

    That is his entire life.

  12. This is just the press getting warmed up.

    Wait until they start properly on his “dialogues” with Hezbollah, Hamas, IRA.

    I’m sure those articles are ready to go but are being held back for a day when Jez hasn’t made some other fuck-up.

  13. And after the National Anthem, he and McMental’s henchman helped themselves to the free lunches set aside for veterans.

  14. Don’t see how not singing a dirge sing about one person from one family that makes no reference to this nations’ land or people past or present is ‘disrespectful’ to people we should be singing about in a national anthem who defended this land and its people in our darkest hours.

    The lyrics are irrelevant, it is what the song signifies that is important. The French don’t sing La Marseillaise because they want a revolution, they sing it because it is the anthem of France. I don’t sing Land of My Fathers at rugby matches because I believe in all that bollocks about poets and bards, and besides, my father is from England.

  15. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    FFS he’s a republican – not singing along to the royalist dirge is a perfectly acceptable stance to take. And Debrett’s is quite clear on this matter; only a fearsome oik would think to sing it out loud. But please, carry on harrumpfing like it’s 1899.

  16. Tim beat me to it. “God save the Queen” is not about God or the Queen or any particular wish to have the latter saved by the former or by anyone else. It’s also a fucking awful tune. (It’s a sign of what a truly great composer Elgar was that he managed an arrangement of it that sounds good.) But it is the National Anthem, and Corbyn is the Leader of the Opposition. Utterly fucking clueless.

    Mind you, if Corbyn is going to stand so staunchly and literally by his principles, how comes he’s in Parliament? Should he not, like his friends in the IRA, have refused to swear the Oath of Allegiance? Or is he willing to set his principles aside in exchange for power? Oh, good. That bodes well.

  17. “FFS he’s a republican – not singing along to the royalist dirge is a perfectly acceptable stance to take.”

    And to think he’s a twat for doing so is also a perfectly acceptable stance to take.

    He’s also leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition. Whether he likes her or not. Standing on petty Lower Sixth principles like that is for bolshie backbenchers, not for someone who supposedly aspires to high office.

  18. ”And after the National Anthem, he and McMental’s henchman helped themselves to the free lunches set aside for veterans.”

    To be fair to the two twats, he and Tom W. were clearly offered the bags of sandwiches. The classy, statesman-in-waiting approach would have been to politely decline. Maybe they thought they were showing solidarity with food bank users or something.

    Perhaps more telling is that those offering clearly thought that Tom & Jerry were the kind of political pond life who’d go for a free sandwich and a bag of crisps.

  19. “Rob Harries, if you are really asking a serious question, the answer is ‘Because it’s the accepted thing to do when everyone else is doing it’.”

    Ah bollocks. For once a politician *doesn’t* do the accepted, and easy, thing… and you’re all over him for it. He didn’t want to sing the song, so he didn’t. The end.

    Did he make a big deal of it? No. Does anyone, at all, anywhere, ever have a right to be even slightly bothered or offended by a man not singing a song? No.

    If Dishface Cameron appeared at a Union conference and opted not to join in with ‘The Red Flag’ would you be criticising him more or less than if he did?

    And yeah.. it’s a fucking awful song which embarrasses the nation every time it’s aired.

  20. @TTG – the red flag is divisive and is not part of the done thing. The National Anthem, dirge though it is, is meant to be unifying, and is part of the done thing.

  21. To be fair, the Nazi-Soviet Pact (supported by the Corbyn parents, we must assume) was in place at the time, so the old boy is merely being consistent.

    It’s his strength, you know: he sticks to his principles through thick and thin. Tho’ mostly thick.

  22. There must be some old mimeographed pamplets in someone’s attic with some “interesting” quotes from him from back in the day. Would be fun if some surfaced at convenient intervals 🙂

  23. “Do you think they’ll be going for brown, black or red shirts this time?”

    Green is the colour for today: conveniently, both current fascist groupings (islamo- and eco-) can wear it.

  24. Not singing the Nat Anth could be construed as being respectful, if for the particular person it was credible. In the case of Corby Trouser Unpressed it simply isn’t credible.

    But the real killer is the unbuttoned shirt. That is seriously DISrespectful conduct by the leader of Her Maj’s (Dis)Loyal opposition. and by doing it on the occasion he did, he’s disrespecting us all. So, as expected, he shows himself to be a cvnt on day 1.

  25. TTG,

    > Does anyone, at all, anywhere, ever have a right to be even slightly bothered or offended by a man not singing a song?

    What have rights got to do with it? This is a democracy. A politician’s job is to win votes. A Leader of the Opposition refusing to sing the National Anthem is a politician throwing votes away. There’s no point going on about whether the voters have a right to be offended. How do you think that could work? Tell them they have no right to be offended and then they vote for him after all?

    Personally, I’m not offended. As I said, it’s a sign that the man is utterly fucking clueless. On multiple levels.

  26. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    There must be some old mimeographed pamplets in someone’s attic with some “interesting” quotes from him from back in the day.

    Yeah, cos while disrespectful old Jezbollah was getting arrested demonstrating against Apartheid, the Bullingdon boy was in the FCS producing ‘Hang Mandela’ posters. Whoops!

  27. @Witchsmeller Pursuivant, you, Sir, are a master of the art of Whataboutism.

    Anyhoo… anything “interesting” from Callme Dave and co has had the thick end of a decade (and two general elections) to come out now.

    But a release of a pamphlet containing a nice defence of shooting people at the Berlin Wall, or the USSR’s policy towards the Baltics or something like that would be such sport.

  28. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Who would have thought that the inhabitants of a so-called libertarian website would turn out to be a bunch of ruddy-cheeked, spluttering old Tories?

  29. WP,

    What’s Libertarianism or Toryism got to do with it? They’re both ideologies that compete within a nation-state. Loyalty to that state (which is what the National Anthem signifies) is about the parameters within which ideologies get to compete. It’s a total non-sequitur.

    Secondly, if you think taking umbrage at the man’s refusal to sing the National Anthem is a Tory thing, your knowledge of the British is highly suspect.

    I note that Corbyn has accepted his invitation to join the Queen’s Privy Council. Anyone reckon he’ll refuse to stand when she enters the room? Of course not. Again, his devotion to principle ends at the moment he’s offered power.

    Refusing to sing the National Anthem because you’re a republican is like refusing to wear the Poppy because you don’t like gardening.

  30. I’m with Squander on this, it doesn’t offend me at all, but it’s a second unnecessary own goal (after McDonnell) which shows that he really ISN’T going to compromise.

    He’ll be defenestrated by his own MPs within 18 months if he doesn’t learn, ‘cos they’ll be panicking for their jobs when they’re 20 points down in the polls.

  31. The anthem thing reminds me of the white poppy thing – it’s within his rights not to sing, just as it is within his rights to wear a white poppy.

    It is what that says about him that counts.

    What it says is that he does things so that they are all about him, instead of the people that they should be about (war dead, the nation, etc).

  32. And by the way, Michael Foot never wore a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph.

    Uh-huh. And perhaps the left will one day quote the full “no such thing as society” sentence too, eh?

  33. @abacab

    Some people think that the national anthem is divisive. Some people don’t think that the Red Flag is divisive. These people are, presumably, allowed their opinions?

    @S2

    If nobody has a right to be offended by it, then what does it matter? If Corbyn doesn’t want the votes of royalists then who cares? And why are people here criticising him?

    Who gives a fuck about ‘the done thing’? Aren’t we all broadly of a mind that politicians should spend a bit less time doing ‘the done thing’ and try someone else? Is it any wonder they don’t when poxy shit like this even gets a bunch of apparent liberals having a go?

    If this was a person approved of by the Worstallites no doing ‘the done thing’, in a manner that causes no harm to anyone, then the reaction here would be a resounding ‘who gives a fuck, move on’. The criticism is pure double-standard because Corbyn is one of the bad guys.

    I wouldn’t join in with the national anthem anywhere because it means nothing to me. And it’s shit. Just like I won’t join in with prayers at weddings and funerals, even if to do so is ‘the done thing’. I’ll always be respectful (as was Corbyn) but I’m not going pretend for the sake of vague social conventions.

  34. “For the record, I don’t sing the National Anthem because the tune’s shit. But I would if I were Leader of the Opposition. Because I’m not a fuckwit.”

    You are easily one of my favourite contributors here, but you just lost my vote because, as opposition leader, you wouldn’t even be ballsy enough not to sing a shit song… and credit the voters with the smarts not to rank that decision above your *actual policies* when casting their ballots.

  35. > you just lost my vote because, as opposition leader, you wouldn’t even be ballsy enough not to sing a shit song

    If I were a politician, I would campaign for the National Anthem to be changed to Bring Me Sunshine. Complete with the Eric & Ernie dance. I have been quite consistent about this for nearly twenty years.

  36. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    @S2 – What’s Libertarianism or Toryism got to do with it?

    It’s the hypocrisy and double-standards as The Thought Gang has eloquently pointed out. If people don’t like Corbyn’s politics fair enough, criticise him for that. But attacking him for ‘not doing the right thing’ and claiming an unbuttoned shirt is disrespecting the nation is pure Tory cant.

    Farage went to the the European Parliament and personally insulted the EU President. That was fucking bad manners and disrespectful. I don’t remember anyone here taking him to task for it.

  37. TTG – so what for you is a good song? some tinpot heap of shit like the Marseilleise? Something even more vomit inducing as Flour of fucking scotland?

    I’m actually not mad about the National Anthem but it has a certain majesty to it; and unlike in cerain countries that Corbyn would like the UK to resemble, you don’t get shot if you don’t sing it. In certain situations though, you look like a total cunt, which is what he managed to do.

    Now, we’ve got the message you don’t like it. Great. Now just piss off..

  38. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    so what for you is a good song? some tinpot heap of shit like the Marseilleise? Something even more vomit inducing as Flour of fucking scotland?

    I thought all men of taste agreed that ‘Jerusalem’ would be a superior anthem to our current royalist dirge. And at least we wouldn’t have to share it with Liechtenstein.

  39. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Who elected him and how many divisions does he have?

    Imagine your umbrage abacab, if Corbyn were to quote Stalin.

  40. “Imagine your umbrage abacab, if Corbyn were to quote Stalin.”

    There’s a difference between quoting stalin ironically, and quoting stalin and meaning it.

    I mean, the man’s quite seriously proposing the NSDAP’s 1930s economic programme, and I don’t see Lefties taking umbrage at that…

  41. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    But you didn’t use it ironically. You used it to make the same point Stalin did; that he only respected force. And Corbyn’s economic programme is currently mainstream European social democracy, so let’s not hyperventilate and Godwin the whole thread shall we?

  42. @WP So I guess I should endorse you on LinkedIn for the skill of “Mindreading” too? Or just “gratuitous presumption”?

    Tell me what I was thinking at the same time about the “President”‘s toleration of the various speeches of Guy Verhofstadt directed towards the Britain and towards Farage personally?

    And mainstream European social democracy is nationalisations and printing money for infrastructure projects now, is it? Since bloody when? Is this “Europe” of which you speak different from the one I have lived in for more than a decade?

    No wonder Arnald likes you.

  43. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Ireland all have publically owned rail companies. That is mainstream Europe is it not? What else do you fear that Corbyn will nationalise?

  44. When did France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Ireland nationalise their railways?

    What countries are currently in the process of (potentially) nationalising privately-owned railways at this time?

  45. Witchsmeller Pursuivant


    When did France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Ireland nationalise their railways

    Do your own homework, lazybones.

  46. WP–Corbyn is an evil cunt who openly admires mass-murdering socialist tyrannies. Not singing the NA is just another sign that he is treason on spindly fucking legs. As pointed out he had no trouble with the fucking “Red Flag” a vile piece of shite that is a direct insult to 200 millions murdered by the scum of the left.

    Also re your bullshit about South Africa above–below are some stats about life in the lovely socialist/tribalist shithole that is post-Apartheid South Africa.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4SS8uyhQnY

  47. TTG,

    > credit the voters with the smarts not to rank that decision above your *actual policies* when casting their ballots.

    Character trumps policy. Loyalty to the system that allows the choice to be made on either basis trumps both.

  48. “Do your own homework, lazybones.”

    France – 1938.
    Germany – always state-owned, from before Germany even existed. So 19th century.
    Italy – 1905.
    Ireland – 1950’s?

    Very “current policy” that.

    So, which countries are currently moving towards (re) nationalisation, as you contended was mainstream?

  49. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Mr Ecks, you are a seriously deranged loonball who appears to believe anyone to the left of Pinochet is an evil socialist cunt. I don’t think that leaves us much space for a meaningful exchange of views.

  50. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    @ abacab. That’s right, they are currently nationalised, making it current policy that Corbyn is moving towards.

  51. “@ abacab. That’s right, they are currently nationalised, making it current policy that Corbyn is moving towards.”

    *sigh*.

    Many countries in Europe are liberalising the railways and increasing private participation. *that* is the current policy.

    And what other countries are planning “People’s QE”, AKA printing money to fund infrastructure projects? Or punitive top rates of tax? Or any of the other things?

  52. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    OK abacab, you tell me – which of Corbyn’s policy ideas were also Nazi party policy, as you stated?

  53. WP–A loon?

    All the murdered victims of socialism are still dead loon or not.

    South Africa is still a collapsing socialist shithole. Blacks and whites in both SA and Rhodesia would have been better off, freer and safer if the original regimes had stayed in power. And that is now–the future will be much worse–loon or not

    And Corbyn is still a dangerous cunt.

    I don’t want a meaningful exchange of views. I just want to ensure that statist and socialist shite don’t get the power that they seek over me. mine and the people of this country and the world in general. The ranks of powerseeking scum includes Corbyn. Shit– it includes Blueballs Camoron for that matter. Jezza’s dickless antics are drawing attention away from the tinpot tyranny of BluNuNuLabour –which suits Blueballs and the gang nicely.

    nb–Pinochet was–by and large– a supporter of corporate socialism. Although he did allow a market free enough to prosper his country far more than anything that twat Allende would ever have done. He still obviously believed in the supremacy of the collective–the state–over the individual. That makes him a socialist in my book.

  54. Well, nationalisations for one thing.

    Direct public investment in transport.

    Increased union participation (in the state-controlled unions, natch); close collaboration between unions and government to further the latter’s aims; anticapitalism.

    Unbacked State spending by increasing the fiat money supply (People’s QE).

    High budget deficits.

    Just for starters.

    I think you and he would have liked the Reinhardt Program, amongst others.

  55. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    So Pinochet was a socialist (Mr Ecks) and direct public investment in transport is Nazi (abacab). I’m going to back away from this thread now, because my work is done. Thanks for having me x

  56. WP–You have a nice line in smug snide but not in refuting points made.

    Your definition of “socialism” doesn’t match mine. Of course it doesn’t as you wouldn’t be able to salve your conscience if it did.

    Your boy Corbyn is going down. And if there is to be any worthwhile future for the human race, socialism in general is going down as well.

  57. “and direct public investment in transport is Nazi (abacab).”

    As is collectivism, anticapitalism etc. They’re all aspects of National Socialism. They’re also aspects of Soviet Communism. A bicycle has two wheels, but not everything with two wheels is a bicycle.

    By your standard, nothing is anything if a single aspect is shared by another thing.

    Well, it fits in with everything ever having been described as “socialism” not actually being “socialsim” when it is no longer politically convenient.

    If you were to look at National Socialist and Fascist economics, you’ll find there’s more in common with Corbynism, Soviet Communism etc. than you might be comfortable with.

  58. Clarification – not “is nazi” but “is a characteristic of nazi policy”.

    I hate this bad-faith type of wordplay. It allows the extremists to get away with all sorts. If something is not congruent with what they’re saying is socialism today, then it’s not socialism.

    But then they have to maintain the self-delusion that they’re not a fag-paper’s width from doctrinaire fascism themselves (it wasn’t referred to as the “Russo-Italian method” in the 20s for nothing.)

  59. Who is WP?

    Can’t be Arnald unless it’s some kind of Jekyll and Hyde scenario – Time – your influence is growing – now up to half a dozen hostile contributors. By the way, I thought the instruction from TRUK was to ignore Tim, or have I got that wrong?

  60. Interesting. I’m very strongly pro monarchy, but with the “live and let live” lot rather than the “traditionalists” on this one.

    Ie, I wouldn’t sing – because I don’t sing.

    It would be disrespectful to mime (once was one too many for Redwood!), and attempting to sing would have been in very poor taste given the occasion, as poor Dave (standing next to me) would have been creasing himself trying not to snigger…

  61. @WP, I was about to jump in and share my assumption that Fecks considers Pinochet a socialist cunt along with everyone to the right of Genghis Khan. But he’s come and done it for me.

  62. Your incomprehension is because your petty prosaic mind can’t conceive of any demarcation of politics beyond the left-right axis given to you by the pundits.

    All those who seek power over others are cut from mainly the same wicked fabric. The bullshit rhetoric they fling may sound different but the end result is the same. Pinochet drops people into volcanoes and the soviets fed people feet first into furnaces an inch at a time.

    Nor do I care much about gradiations. “I’m a DEMOCRATIC socialist –I only belief in 5% or 10% coercion–not like those nasty full on commies etc”. It is situational lying based on what they think will fly–because they don’t have power. Once they get it–whatever the promises–once the wind changes they hoist the Jolly Rodger quick enough.

  63. Witchsmeller:

    And Debrett’s is quite clear on this matter; only a fearsome oik would think to sing it out loud.

    No doubt you have a citation, or a link? I failed to find one in a cursory look at their website. I thought you would, no doubt, have it close to hand.

  64. For Christ’s sake, is this important? I would not sing the national anthem because my voice does not fit the keys that church organists use – so if I do sing a hymn, I have to switch between octaves in a way that annoys people around me, so I refrain. It is not a big deal. Being caught miming would be a big deal. There are more important things about Corbyn’s inadequacy.

  65. By an odd coincidence, I shared an umbrella in the pouring rain with a neighbour I bumped into on my way home last night. Real old Labour & staunch union chap (retired), the only thing we have in common really is our shared interest in gardening.

    Quite unprompted, as we discussed current affairs, he starts in fuming and ranting – about Corbyn! I hadn’t raised the subject at all, I swear.

    But his comments were to the effect that the party had lost its mind, elected a wrong ‘un who’d do the country down, had no respect for tradition, etc, etc. I hadn’t expected this from him, I must admit.

    Interesting times….

  66. Allan Massie articulates this better than many:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11874444/Jeremy-Corbyn-singing-national-anthem-sometimes-silence-is-more-dignified.html

    Even at Twickenham, or Murrayfield in my youth, the crowd stood silent, men removing their hats or caps, when the anthem was played. It was a solemn moment.

    “We live in a time of perpetual chatter. Silence seems to disturb us”

    It still is, sometimes anyway. When it is played at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday, you are not expected to sing the words. Silence is more impressive, more moving.

    You might say that silence would also be more appropriate at a commemoration of the Battle of Britain. Silence invites you to think of the brave young men who risked death to defeat Hitler’s Luftwaffe. Singing is a distraction from the memory of the debt we owe them.

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