In which Mehdi Hassan is wrong

“The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see,” wrote Ayn Rand in her novel The Fountainhead. That there is a link, a connection, between the west’s military interventions in the Middle East and terrorist attacks against the west, that violence begets violence, is “glaringly evident” to anyone with open eyes, if not open minds.

So, we’re causing it by our actions, they’re just reacting.

OK. Then in he same newspaper, on the same day:

Isis is reaching out to fill the void wherever a state of “chaos” or “savagery” (at-tawahoush) exists, as in central Asia and Africa. And where there is insufficient chaos in the lands of the infidel, called “The House of War”, it seeks to create it, as in Europe.

They’ve actually got a plan they’re working to. But then we’re not surprised that Mehdi is wrong, are we?

83 thoughts on “In which Mehdi Hassan is wrong”

  1. Bombing Muslim majority countries “back to the stone age” can’t help though, can it?

    Undeniably they have an over-aching plan to cause terror; they’re terrorists. The targets n the West, and Deash know damned well that they can’t “topple Western civilisation”.

    The only reason they have gained some traction and the land that they control is because the states they operate from are entirely broken. Lawlessness always pushed up the most ruthless to power.

    Bombing Syria will just force them sideways. Some analogy I heard: terrorist groups can be blown to hell, but like a dandelion, the seeds will fall on fertile ground and it will all start again.

    Or words to that effect.

    I don’t know what the solution is. I know, however, demonising entire Muslim populations is juvenile and self-defeating.

  2. The problem is they can always go back further, and further, and further. Even the Crusades are a cause! For, of course, a war in 1096 is a perfectly rational reason to kill civilians over 900 years later.

    And if they can’t go back, they blame future events, e.g. 9/11 on the invasion of Afghanistan/Iraq.

  3. Medhi Hasan is an islamist wolf in sheeps clothing. I’ll bet you a tenner that he gets a boner from the thought of cutting infidels head off.

    Yes Arnald even Dhimmi’s like you….

  4. That there is a link, a connection, between the west’s military interventions in the Middle East and terrorist attacks against the west, that violence begets violence, is “glaringly evident” to anyone with open eyes, if not open minds.

    Okay, good. Now we’re all agreed that both sides are engaged in violence, can we drop the “religion of peace” bullshit and engage these fuckers properly?

  5. We had to kill 15 million germans to get the militaristic streak out of them. It was cultural, not just a few “fanatics”. The culture then, as now, bred the fanatics on a continual basis. It’s the culture we need to destroy and that means destruction on a scale of total war. The occasional bomb falling in the desert only shows our lack of resolve.

  6. “violence begets violence,”
    No it doesn’t.
    Insufficient violence begets violence.
    Sufficient violence ensures either there’s no one living to do violence back or they’re too shit scared to try.
    That’s a truth Mehdi boy needs to ponder on a while.

  7. This argument is predicated on the same racism that underpins the Stop the War world view: only white westerners have moral agency; everyone else just reacts.
    The problem is it’s hard to see how and why Nigerian schoolgirls are “reaping the whirlwind”, or Nairobi students, or Yazidi widows, or Mumbai shoppers, or Kurdish peace marchers or… How can they can moral agency too? They’re not white and living here.

  8. The problem is it’s hard to see how and why Nigerian schoolgirls are “reaping the whirlwind”, or Nairobi students, or Yazidi widows, or Mumbai shoppers, or Kurdish peace marchers or… How can they can moral agency too? They’re not white and living here.

    Presumably because the white man’s influence is so overwhelming they have to “lash out in anger” at people they really don’t want to rape, decapitate or slaughter.

  9. Ironman

    “This argument is predicated on the same racism that underpins the Stop the War world view: only white westerners have moral agency; everyone else just reacts.”

    Stop the War want to see the end of needless death regardless of what, why or where. It’s hardly racist.

  10. “Stop the War want to see the end of needless death regardless of what, why or where. It’s hardly racist.”
    Then they’re be holding their demonstrations out in Syria, are they?
    They’re not?
    Good grief!
    Wonder why?
    White people in Western cities less likely to hack their heads off?
    Seems a fairly racist assumption, to me.

  11. So Much For Subtlety

    Arnald – “Bombing Muslim majority countries “back to the stone age” can’t help though, can it?”

    We are not bombing them at all. Certainly not back to the Stone Age. The French bombed Raqqa for the first time yesterday. Their capital had not been bombed once up to that point. The French dropped something like 20 tons of bombs on them. So essentially nothing.

    However you are wrong. In the old days, the Muslims attacked us and we burnt Alexandria to the ground. Or Algiers or wherever. That worked. It brought us about 150 years of relative peace from the Muslim world. We should try it again. Attacks need to bring an overwhelming, crushing, maybe even nuclear, response. Attacks will stop.

    “The targets n the West, and Deash know damned well that they can’t “topple Western civilisation”.”

    I disagree. I think they think they can. They think they toppled the Soviet Union after all.

    “The only reason they have gained some traction and the land that they control is because the states they operate from are entirely broken. Lawlessness always pushed up the most ruthless to power.”

    Indeed. Muslims tend towards unbelievable levels of violence towards each other unless there is a dominant single power that monopolises terror in their ruling tribe. We need to make sure some government emerges in the Middle East so that they will torture and execute until the terrorism is restrained.

    “Bombing Syria will just force them sideways. Some analogy I heard: terrorist groups can be blown to hell, but like a dandelion, the seeds will fall on fertile ground and it will all start again.”

    B0ll0cks. People turn to terrorism because it works. We have to make sure it doesn’t. They used to turn to Arab Socialist terrorism because that worked and the Soviets gave them money. It stopped working and they deserted it for the Islamists. Once that fails, those angry young men will turn to something else. Our job is to make sure that everyone knows joining such a group is a short road to a nasty death.

    “I don’t know what the solution is. I know, however, demonising entire Muslim populations is juvenile and self-defeating.”

    I disagree. We need moral clarity. We need to stop making excuses for them. We need ar$es like you to stop apologising for them. All these are steps forward. As is pointing out the obvious – Islam is the problem.

    Arnald – “Stop the War want to see the end of needless death regardless of what, why or where. It’s hardly racist.”

    Needless. To be exact, the Trots and Islamists who make up the StW Coalition want to stop their enemies killing people on their side, or if not that then they want to make as much propaganda from it as possible, and they want to encourage people on their side killing as many people as possible. Just as Trotsky said it was right to kill the Tsar’s children but wrong to kill his own.

    The StW people are not anti-War. They are anti-Western.

  12. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “This argument is predicated on the same racism that underpins the Stop the War world view: only white westerners have moral agency; everyone else just reacts.”

    And Rusty leaps out of a phone booth having turned into Irony-man.

    Given, you know, this is the basis of his entire world view.

  13. Arnald:“Stop the War want to see the end of needless death regardless of what, why or where. …”

    Which is why they often hold peace marches in Nigeria, Iraq, China, etc, I suppose?

  14. Funny, murderous fascist theocracy wasn’t the anti-imperialism expression of choice for diaspora’s the countless nations we as the west brutalised in the past. What’s changed? Or who has changed maybe?

    I don’t believe any of these chumps care one bit about injustice and that’s why they chose to kill their neighbours in a fit of theocratic violence. Unless we can sort of excuse the vile racist attacks on some people post-Paris as a ‘reaction’ to real and felt suffering?

  15. Bloke in North Dorset

    Nobody hates a Muslim fanatic more than another Muslim fanatic, just look at the way they fight each other. Just look at the way Shias and Sunnis go at each other hammer and tongs. We’ve even imported it in to this country.
    And then add in he treatment of Kurds and other minorities and we’ve got generations of internecine warfare to contend with and that isn’t the west’s fault.

    What we do provide with our interventions is a rallying cry for a united Islam on the basis of my enemy’s enemy etc. But even that isn’t working because they still can’t figure out how to get along with each other such is their mutual hatred and barbarity.

    We’re not going to bomb the fanatics out of existence, all we can do is wait for, and encourage, an Islamic Enlightenment and in the meantime make it absolutely clear that we will trade* and work with moderates and if their civil war spills on to our home soil we will seek revenge and there will be nowhere for their leaders and planners to hide as was demonstrated by the deaths of Bin Laden and Jihadi John, among others.

    *As Tim used to say when I first started reading this blog, if goods don’t cross borders Armies will, and that applies to terrorist armies as well.

  16. The only real danger the islamics pose is demographic takeover in the West. Leftist scum are doing everything they can to make that happen. That is the danger we face and must find a way to deal with.

    Stop them arriving and stop them breeding here in large numbers by making it beyond their means to do so. Encourage those here to leave.

    Above all –in not just because of Islamic danger–we must smash the left. There will be no future if that pack of cunts triumph.

    PS Tim–where has the preview below the comment box gone?

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    Bloke in North Dorset – “if their civil war spills on to our home soil we will seek revenge and there will be nowhere for their leaders and planners to hide as was demonstrated by the deaths of Bin Laden and Jihadi John, among others.”

    On the other hand Arafat died in his bed. Well a Western hospital bed. Mandela died in his bed too. Feted by the world. Gerry Adams seems likely to die in office. I expect he will get an OBE in the end.

    There is no reason to think the West has the stomach or the ability to make anyone pay. Except, of course, middle aged White hairdressers.

  18. I didn’t know there was one, didn’t know it’s gone and have no idea whatsoever about what to do about it.

  19. From a cursory inspection it looks like inline PHP has been hosed somewhere in your WP config, so the inline comment preview object is not being instantiated correctly. At this point the web monkey in the basement of Worstall Mansions either needs to be given a banana or beaten until he does something about it.

  20. SMFS:It didn’t take the socialist pissoir long did it eh.

    Even if the islamics can’t manage a demographic takeover then socialist cunts can still use them to facilitate the tyranny they want anyway.

  21. So Much For Subtlety

    Incidentally has anyone told this Islamist apologist c*nt that the present round of violence, according to the Islamic State began with the end of the Caliphate? Which was ended, of course, because the Turks attacked the West with no actual provocation whatsoever. And lost.

    The Muslims sit in the historic capitals of Christianity and worship in Churches that are now Mosques. There are virtually no mosques that are now Churches. We can change that.

    Mr Ecks – “Even if the islamics can’t manage a demographic takeover then socialist cunts can still use them to facilitate the tyranny they want anyway.”

    It is a displacement activity. They can’t do anything. They know they can’t do anything. At least nothing they have the courage to try. So they will make it look like they are doing something. New York sent some “crack, highly trained” anti-terrorist squads out on the street yesterday. That is, some fat middle aged men in poorly fitting uniforms who have scoffed too many donoughts and carry guns. It will do no good whatsoever, but it is a substitute for actual achievement.

    What France will end up with is no civil liberties and an Arab Muslim demographic take over.

  22. Ironman – The problem is it’s hard to see how and why Nigerian schoolgirls are “reaping the whirlwind”

    Or English schoolgirls in Rotherham, Oxford, etc.

    Medhi sez:

    he hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see,” wrote Ayn Rand in her novel The Fountainhead.

    Medhi’s an Ayn Rand fan now. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    That there is a link, a connection, between the west’s military interventions in the Middle East and terrorist attacks against the west

    There may well be. There’s an even more direct link between having beardy nutters in our midst and said beardy nutters raping schoolgirls and chopping people’s heads off.

    So, deport the beardy nutters.

    Derided by a former Labour minister as “west-hating fury chimps”, the UK’s Stop the War coalition

    That’s pretty funny.

    On a BBC panel discussion the Telegraph’s Janet Daley referred to the crash as “a direct consequence of [Russia’s] involvement in Syria”, adding: “[Putin] has perhaps incited this terrorist incident on Russian civilians.”

    Ain’t no con like a Neocon.

    Yes, the attackers in the Bataclan concert hall chanted Allahu Akbar as they opened fire on the crowd, but they were also heard saying: “What you are doing in Syria? You are going to pay for it now.”

    Indeed, the French paid dearly for Angela Merkel’s invitation to the beardy nutters to swarm into Europe. And their own government’s pathetic short-sightedness in letting people who hate everything about France – except the benefits office – to settle there.

    This is the simplistic fantasy, the geopolitical fairytale, that we tell ourselves. It gives us solace and strength in the wake of terrorist atrocities. But it does nothing to stop the next attack.

    True. You only stop would-be killers by killing, jailing, or deporting them before they strike again.

  23. It is difficult to deal with, a creed and anti culture which adheres verbatim to a series of scripts purportedly written in stages some time long ago in a cave and which reflects in detail, a misanthropic and bestial savagery run rampant.

    Demanding unquestioning obedience, allowing for murder, torture and demanding killing as diversity & equality number one directives – you can see why it appeals to a certain type of bloke. Whoa though, that’s not Mehdi’s type of thing…….. but you know, he likes to keep on their good side – because yer never know, do you?
    David Cameron, is a much more dangerous fellow, Dave is part of Common Purpose and is a member – joined UAF – both of these organizations have a soft spot totally blind spot – for the death cult. Dave is our PM.

  24. So, we’re causing it by our actions, they’re just reacting.

    Norway’s (young) socialists caused Anders Breivik.

    Try that one and watch today’s apologists go nuts.

  25. As SMFS says: Islam is the problem. As long as our leaders are in denial about this, there will be no effective solution. As long as debating Islamic beliefs is considered Islamaphobia and likely to draw the attention of plod, we cannot begin to approach a solution.

    To be honest, I don’t believe an Isamic Enlightenment is possible. Could there have been an Enlightenment of Jim Jones’s or David Koresh’s cults? Mohammad’s cult is no different, it is a really screwed up mix of beliefs that cannot be reformed because they supposedly come from a divine power (if he was real he’d have to be the devil) and have been transmitted through the messenger of said divine power. As such, any reform is blasphemy.

  26. SMFS: “There are virtually no mosques that are now Churches. We can change that.”

    They’ll sit just as empty as CoE ones in this country, then…

  27. So Much For Subtlety

    Off Topic I know, but I have just seen across that ticker tape thing that Jonah Lomu has died.

    Say it ain’t so! The guy was 40!

    Anyone else heard anything? It really is the passing of one of the game’s greatest players if true.

  28. As a general rule, anyone who quotes Ayn Rand is likely to be wrong. And certainly it’s nonsense to say that Islamist terrorism is no more than a reaction to what the West does in the middle east.

    However, it’s worth looking at the effects of what has been done in our names:

    – In the 80s, and into the 90s, we (mainly the USA) funded and armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, in opposition to the Soviet-backed government. The result was that the Taliban took over the country, and Al Qaeda was established (it was originally the name of a Mujahideen training camp).

    – In 2003, we (mainly the USA) overthrew Saddam Hussain’s government in Iraq. The result was a state of anarchy in which armed groups seized power (and oil wells to fund themselves with) as they could. One of these groups was ISI. The West tended to prefer ISI to Shiite groups backed by Iran.

    in 2012 the West (mostly indirectly and covertly) started funding and arming groups in Syria opposed to the Russian-backed government of Bashar al-Assad. Officially, extremist groups were excluded, but in practice the people who ended up with the effective firepower were ISIS.

    It’s not hard to see and understand the pattern. You need extraordinary motivation to take arms against the sort of government we wish to overthrow in the middle east. And the main source of extraordinary motivation there is Islamic fundamentalism. When we fund opposition to loathsome governments in the middle east, we fund, directly or indirectly, Islamist nutters. When we ourselves overthrow loathsome governments there, we create opportunities for Islamist nutters to seize power.

    Ron Paul says “the best formula for giving us peace and preserving the American way of life is freedom, limited government, and minding our own business overseas.”. As a general rule, anyone who quotes him is likely to be wrong. But perhaps there are exceptions.

  29. @Rob

    Go back to The Crusades? Go further – what were Muslim armies doing in Poitiers & Tours in 732? To paraphrase Ali G, was they on ‘oliday?

    This is the latest battle in a *very* long war.

  30. Well, let’s mirror Mehdi’s position: the rise of ISIL and increased risk of domestic terrorism have nothing whatsoever to do with our overseas adventures. Is that a wholly reasonable position?

  31. Of course everything is interconnected. However, as has been said in other threads, ISIS are moral agents. They’re aren’t like pool balls that follow some law of physics when struck with a cue.

  32. Crap analysis, SJW.

    ”When we ourselves overthrow loathsome governments there, we create opportunities for Islamist nutters to seize power.”

    Quite. Should’ve told the likes of the Guardian to STFU and kept the Shah of Iran in power, shouldn’t we?

  33. Anyone else heard anything? It really is the passing of one of the game’s greatest players if true.

    Yes, he had a long-term, rare, and serious kidney problem. Very sad.

  34. Are people here seriously raging that the present problems, and their scale, are entirely disconnected from the USSR invading Afghanistan, or the US Iraq? Do they have nothing to do with the west’s unprovoked attacks on Libya and Syria?

    Are you really arguing that because lots of the trouble has nothing much to do with the west, or the Russians, then none of it can be to do with them? Bonkers. Utterly bonkers. Get a grip! Just because a lot of Lefties cry that it’s all the fault of the west doesn’t mean that none of it is.

    Now, how shall we organise the expulsions?

  35. “I don’t believe an Islamic Enlightenment is possible…”

    The Golden Age of Islam was a thousand years ago. Al-Khwarizmi developed algebra and algorithms. Al-Ḥaytham was the first real experimental scientist. Omar Khayyam developed Khayyam’s triangle (also known as Pacal’s triangle), created a calendar more accurate than Pope Gregory’s, and wrote his Rubaiyat:
    A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
     A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou…

    Then at the end of the 11th Century came a wave of attacks by heavily armed religious fundamentalists from the uncivilized West. They murdered Muslims and Jews alike, looting and burning as they went.

    Over the next two hundred years, attacks from Christians from the West and Mongols from the East made it impossible to sustain the economic and social conditions which allowed the scholars of the Golden Age to flourish.

    Back then, Islamic commentators may well have thought that a Christian Enlightenment would be impossible.

  36. In the 80s, and into the 90s, we (mainly the USA) funded and armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, in opposition to the Soviet-backed government. The result was that the Taliban took over the country, and Al Qaeda was established (it was originally the name of a Mujahideen training camp).

    Not really. The funding of the Mujahideen was already well underway via Saudi Arabia and Pakistan by the time the US got involved. Steve Coll’s Ghost Wars is a very thorough account of the events that took place between the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and 9/11, and it states that is is almost impossible to determine what proportion of Saudi, Gulf State, Pakistani, and US money went to which group, let alone determine further which of those intermingled and ever-changing groups turned into Al Qa’eda. So American money went into the mix, some of which probably found its way into the hands of those who went on to join Al Qa’eda. If you want to lay the fucking up of Afghanistan and the rise of extremism in that country at somebody’s door, try the Soviets. Coll’s book also makes clear that – as the man himself said in person – Bin Laden’s main motivation against the West was the stationing of American/Western troops in Saudi Arabia during and after the Gulf War. Bin Laden wanted the Saudis to use an army of jihadists led by himself to repel any Iraqi invasion of Saudi lands: understandably, the Saudis preferred to use the US army and Bin Laden turned to terrorism.

    – In 2003, we (mainly the USA) overthrew Saddam Hussain’s government in Iraq. The result was a state of anarchy in which armed groups seized power (and oil wells to fund themselves with) as they could.

    No, the seizing of power was a direct result of Obama pulling out of Iraq against the pleas of his own military and the Iraqis themselves in order for him to make himself look good. Sure, he inherited a shit-sandwich in Iraq, but his decision to pull the Americans out prematurely was what created the vacuum that ISIS filled.

    in 2012 the West (mostly indirectly and covertly) started funding and arming groups in Syria opposed to the Russian-backed government of Bashar al-Assad.

    Perhaps, but it was not the west that kicked off the uprising. Following protests across Syria against the Assad regime, no doubt prompted by events elsewhere in the Arab Spring (itself caused by dicking with bread/flour prices in Egypt), in March 2011 the Assad regime arrested a load of children and teenagers in some regional town, and when they were released several days later it became apparent that they’d been tortured. Protestors then took up arms, and the civil war started.

  37. SJW,

    What a load of utter fucking bollocks, just because a couple of muzzies were clever at maths doesn’t mean that they were so because the evil shit Mohammed actually got revelation from the imaginary god, Allah. The cult of Islam was as completely evil and brutal then as it is now.

  38. ukliberty and SJW: Yes, we happened to create the conditions in which IS has prospered. (If “prosper” be quite the right term.) But if we hadn’t, somebody or something else might well have done. You can think of various dictators in the Middle East and North Africa: Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad, Mubarak, the list goes on. None of them would live forever, and the death of any of them could easily have created the kind of unrest into which IS could insert itself. Or perhaps Iran’s incessant meddling in the stability of its neighbours might have come back to haunt it. Or maybe another flare-up of Israel-Palestine would go regional and create a gap in the market for Islamically-inspired nutters with RPGs and a bad case of the eschatologies.

    I’m not saying IS was completely inevitable, but there is a clear trajectory from Al Qaeda’s stated aims to those of IS, and if you look at the religious ideology they follow then a lot of the game plan (including what Tim highlights about creating chaos) becomes highly predictable. All they needed was the right conditions to start moving and, while we in the West happened to be the idiots who furnished it, the history of the Middle East suggests they would not have had to have waited long.

  39. SJW,

    Just to emphasise the point, Enlightenment principles of liberty, reason, tolerance and ending the abuses of the state and religious authorities are not things we associate with Islamic states, Medieval or modern Medieval. Islam is evil, was when the utter shit Mohammad fabricated it and remains so in its modern versions. The only right thing to do is to fight evil and those who support and espouse it.

  40. Philip Walker,

    Only problem with your analysis is that there is a clear trajectory from Mohammad to ISIS. That is the nature of Islam, it was fabricated by an utterly evil shit who was a murderer, robber, enslaver and pedophile. It remains as evil today, its serious followers keen to follow the evil example of its founder. Islam is evil, it cannot be reformed or accommodated within Enlightenment values, it needs to be exterminated from the West and quarantined in the Middle Eastern shitholes that it has spawned.

  41. SJW – so the lack of an Islamic enlightenment is down to the evil crusaders? So, it’s ALL our fault! I might have known.

    Islam has been in steady decline since its golden age to the point where all it can spit out is violent primitives.

    The Christian West however has passed into decadence and increasingly can only produce worthless self-hating fuckholes….

  42. Just to be fair to Mehdi Hassan, his claim is simply that there’s “a link…between the west’s military interventions in the Middle East and terrorist attacks against the west.” This may be true or not, but is certainly worth debate.

    He does NOT say that “we’re causing it by our actions, they’re just reacting”, and I’m not sure why TW and others above are so keen to misrepresent his remark.

  43. “…the seizing of power was a direct result of Obama pulling out of Iraq…”

    Most of what you write (Tim N) is fair enough – a different perspective. But that bit is just wrong on the facts. AQI, later ISI, became the de facto government in parts of Iraq in 2006, years before Obama became president.

  44. I am sympathetic to the view that toppling Arab dictatorships is a bad idea. We seem to think the choice is between Assad/Saddam and a sort of Middle Eastern version of the Liberal Democrats, but what if Assad/Saddam is the least worst option available? What if the alternative is not the Lib Dems, but (eventually) IS or the Mullahs in Iran?

  45. “…just because a couple of muzzies were clever at maths doesn’t mean that they were so because [anti-Islamic invective]”

    The Islamic Golden Age was not religious, and nor was the Western Enlightenment. No particular religion, nor atheism, is incompatible with enlightened government, or with repression and inhumanity.

    “Enlightenment principles of liberty, reason, tolerance and ending the abuses of the state and religious authorities are not things we associate with Islamic states, Medieval or modern Medieval.”

    That’s not how things looked to Omar Khayyam.

  46. Dongguan John

    “ISIS are moral agents. They’re aren’t like pool balls that follow some law of physics when struck with a cue.”

    I believe being struck with a cue is the maximum amount of force Jeremy Corbyn would allow the police to use to stop terrorists in the course of an attack in London.

  47. Most of what you write (Tim N) is fair enough – a different perspective. But that bit is just wrong on the facts.

    Oh please. You want to talk about the rise of ISIS and not mention Obama pulling the troops out of Iraq prematurely? How about we talk about Imperial Japan and not mention Pearl Harbour?

    AQI, later ISI, became the de facto government in parts of Iraq in 2006, years before Obama became president.

    No, it didn’t. They were kicked out of Anbar province having tried to take over there. And Al-Qa’eda in Iraq are not the same as ISIS.

  48. Much as I despise the leftist tripe normally peddled by SJW I have to say that on this occasion there is some small element of truth there. We should not be involved with ANY of these goofy shitholes. The only real danger they represent to us is the fact that half of them are already over here and clients of the scum of the left. Externally they couldn’t knock the skin off a fucking rice pudding. 911 could have been far more cheaply and effectively punished by raid and assassination than by a 2 –or is it nearer 3 now-trillion dollar war which has achieved sodall of lasting value. Hell if we can’t stand up to them at home we have lost anyway.

  49. SJW,

    Your supposed anti-Islamic invective is true none the less.

    Islam as a religious cult is entirely incompatible with Enlightenment and entirely compatible with repression and inhumanity, its history shows us that this is so.

    How did things look different to Omar Khayyam?

  50. BTW there never was an Islamic golden age. That is also a load of propaganda tripe.Eg the 7-9th century AD Moorish city of Cordoba in Spain–supposed to have half a million inhabitants, baths etc–which archeologists can find no trace of.

  51. SJW: fucking Al Ghazali put an end to the Mutawzalite experimentation with Aristotle and other Greek ideas which is the very brief flowering of Arab thought idiots like you rave about, before he died in 1111. As a theologian he maintained that expecting the world to behave in a predictable fashion was a limitation on the power of Allah. Before his death inquisitive and rational thinkers from Bagdad to Cordoba met nasty ends for apostasy. His ideas have resurfaced regularly since then with the same force which is why there are more Spanish translations every year than there ever have been into Arabic and why Nobel Prizes to Muslim scientists are a lot thinner than single colleges at Cambridge.

  52. “You want to talk about the rise of ISIS and not mention Obama pulling the troops out of Iraq prematurely?”

    Quite right I do. It’s a bullshit republican talking point, an exercise in shifting the blame. Yes, if the US kept enough troops on the ground in Iraq forever, even when the government the US had installed insisted that they leave, then things would be different.

  53. Quite right I do. It’s a bullshit republican talking point, an exercise in shifting the blame.

    Ah yes. Can’t have Obama being responsible for anything, can we? It’s always the Republicans’ fault.

    Yes, if the US kept enough troops on the ground in Iraq forever,

    No, not forever. Nobody said they should be there forever.

    even when the government the US had installed insisted that they leave, then things would be different.

    Yes, they would be different. But let’s not blame Obama, only the entire military and Pentagon and a good few Iraqis told him the withdrawal was premature.

  54. “How did things look different to Omar Khayyam?”

    There he was, in his garden in Nishapur, thinking and writing whatever he wanted, including verses in praise of wine. Where’s the repression and inhumanity in that?

    I’m trying to think of a contemporary equivalent in Western Europe, but there isn’t one, because the only real scholarship here was on theological questions of no interest to us. Try Peter Abelard. I’d have preferred Khayyam’s life, wouldn’t you?

  55. Ecksy

    There was an Islamic Golden Age of sorts, and arguably the West only overtook Islam technologically and economically in 15th century. The population of Cordoba, as you say, was never 500,000. And the famed tolerance of the of the Ummayads is largely a myth. As for the baths, there were many – the most notable being at the alcazar.

  56. Bloke in Costa Rica

    In order to stop a recrudescence of armed resistance in a defeated enemy it appears necessary to do a couple of things. Firstly the enemy must be seen to be defeated. This means taking away his logistical capability to wage war, to lay waste to large portions of his cities and infrastructure, and to kill a large number of his men of fighting age (as well as a good chunk of the civilian population if you are so minded). Secondly, you need to station troops on his territory, both to reinforce the defeat and to stop a second hostile power exploiting the vacuum. Thirdly, you need to impose systems of governance starting essentially as a colonial administrator and yielding to native rule only as fast as the defeated nation demonstrates it is capable and willing to act in a way consonant with your larger strategic vision.

    We did this in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. We did not do it in Iraq. We were starting to (the Surge broke the back of the Sunni insurgency) but then the feckless poltroon Obama threw away the gains we had made. ISIS is, to a large extent, his creation, but only through his incompetence, arrogance, sloth and narcissism, rather than any ulterior motive. Its theological underpinnings are Islamic to the core; it does not operate either in its stated aims or in its mode of warfare any differently from Islamic armies of the past. It can de defeated, but if it is merely slapped down rather than extirpated without concern about ‘collateral damage’ then the wrong message will be sent. Probably the most effective thing the French could have done in the immediate aftermath of the Paris massacres would have been to drop a single air-delivered nuclear warhead directly over the centre of Raqqa with the express intention of killing as many of the inhabitants as possible. But we’re much too squeamish for that, and we may well lose as a consequence (or, when the nukes do fly, they will fly en masse).

  57. “As SMFS says: Islam is the problem. As long as our leaders are in denial about this, there will be no effective solution. As long as debating Islamic beliefs is considered Islamaphobia and likely to draw the attention of plod, we cannot begin to approach a solution.”

    Bollocks.

    Our leaders know how fucked up a significant proportion of Muslims are (not all – that would be barmy)

    But, they import them en masse with no way of weeding out the scumbags, and unfortunately there’s a pretty high percentage of the moderates who actually don’t mind what the nutters do.

    Our problem are the British and EU governments, who in turn are having their strings pulled by the elites who insist we should be mixed together and that European culture and history is not worth defending cos Nationalism = Racism = War

    India for India
    South Africa for Black South Africans
    Why not Europe for Europeans?

  58. SJW: I presume you know Omar Khayyam died in 1131. That he survived 20 years after Al Ghazali is because he lived in northeast Iran where the politics kept intellectual inquiry safe for a bit longer. One should remember him as amathematician and astronomer. Fitzgerald’s adaptation of his verse is not an accurate translation and is condemned as misrepresentation and character assassination by scholars who read Persian.

  59. Tim Newman

    I’m so glad you posted that about Bin Laden’s motivations further up post. I get so mad at hearing the nonsense spouted by experts about Bin Laden’s motivation.

    Lawrence Wright is excellent on this. It’s quite straightforward. Bin Laden (spoilt Saudi aristo that he is) considered himself a knight (sic) in shining armour who, with his non-existent band of warriors would ride out to defeat the Iraqui Republican Guard should they cross the desert in Saudi.

    The Saudi govt were less convinced and picked the 500,000 well-trained, US-led coalition troops with their depleted uranium tank rounds, Apache gunships and smart missiles.

    OBL was so shamed and pissed off to be rejected in favour of infidels he founded AQ, and in 1992 bombed the Gold Mohur Hotel in Aden, Yemen.

  60. “ISIS is, to a large extent, [Obama’s] creation, but only through his incompetence, arrogance, sloth and narcissism, rather than any ulterior motive”

    Utter rubbish. ISI was announced by AQI in October 2006: there’s no distinction between them thereafter.

    Here‘s a report from November 2006 describing AQI as being the dominant force in Al-Anbar. And here‘s one from Christmas 2006 on AQI control of Baqouba. Here‘s a report from 2007 on ISI’s battle for control of central and western areas.

    So the US made a new attempt to pacify the country. And some combination of US force, US bribery, Shia reaction, and the “awakening” of moderate Sunnis succeeded in pushing ISI back. In July 2008, a prominent supporter of the “surge” announced victory “by the end of the year, barring some unexpected setback, even the most ardent war critics will have to admit the obvious: The war is over. We won.”

    In December 2008 Bush signed an agreement with Maliki that US forces would withdraw entirely by the end of 2011.

    In January 2009, Obama became president. He slowed down the timetable for troop reductions, but stuck with the final date – Maliki refused to change it. So in December 2011 the last troops went home.

    At no point did Obama get in his time machine, go back to 2006, and create ISI. The charge is ridiculous.

    Bush first declared victory in Iraq in March 2003. Starting from there, how many troops, for how long, would have been needed to eliminate ISI?

  61. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “However, it’s worth looking at the effects of what has been done in our names:”

    No it isn’t. Actually. As it is just an excuse for your usual Teenage Spart-ist nonsense.

    “In the 80s, and into the 90s, we (mainly the USA) funded and armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, in opposition to the Soviet-backed government. The result was that the Taliban took over the country, and Al Qaeda was established (it was originally the name of a Mujahideen training camp).”

    Yes, well they do not need to all thank us at once. The Taliban took over as a reaction to the Mujihadeen. Which would have been fine. The West was doing what the Left usually wants us to do – help people achieve freedom and then f**k off back home to leave them to it. What they wanted was the Taliban. How is that our fault?

    “In 2003, we (mainly the USA) overthrew Saddam Hussain’s government in Iraq. The result was a state of anarchy in which armed groups seized power (and oil wells to fund themselves with) as they could. One of these groups was ISI. The West tended to prefer ISI to Shiite groups backed by Iran.”

    The West has never preferred ISIS. Never armed or funded it either. The West is allied with the government which is Shia and backed by Iran. Strange but true. The result was anarchy. How is that the West’s fault? How was anyone to predict that the Iraqis did not want freedom, democracy and human rights but to go at each other’s knee caps with power drills? Who predicted that?

    “in 2012 the West (mostly indirectly and covertly) started funding and arming groups in Syria opposed to the Russian-backed government of Bashar al-Assad. Officially, extremist groups were excluded, but in practice the people who ended up with the effective firepower were ISIS.”

    Which is to say that what happens in Syria has nothing to do with the West at all. An utterly token effort has been made to back democrats. We changed the government and intervened in Iraq. The result was a mess with Iraqis brutalising each other. So we learned that lesson. We simply changed the government in Libya with no intervention. The result is a mess with Libyans brutalising each other. So we learned that lesson too. We did nothing in Syria at all. What has the result been?

    Naturally Paul here is blaming the Jews for everything.

    “It’s not hard to see and understand the pattern. You need extraordinary motivation to take arms against the sort of government we wish to overthrow in the middle east.”

    No you don’t.

    “When we fund opposition to loathsome governments in the middle east, we fund, directly or indirectly, Islamist nutters. When we ourselves overthrow loathsome governments there, we create opportunities for Islamist nutters to seize power.”

    That is true. But that is their fault not ours. The Poles did not take to each others’ knee caps. Because they are Poles.

    Stop making excuses for degenerates.

  62. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “The Islamic Golden Age was not religious, and nor was the Western Enlightenment. No particular religion, nor atheism, is incompatible with enlightened government, or with repression and inhumanity.”

    The Islamic Golden Age did not exist and was, of course, religious. Given the government, you know, was founded on religious principles and enforced religious law.

    We have no reason to think that enlightened government is independent of people’s religious values. In fact we have every reason to think the opposite – Catholic countries have had a great deal of trouble coming to terms with democracy for instance. A clear example. So do Muslim ones but even more so.

    “That’s not how things looked to Omar Khayyam.”

    Yes it was. Given he had to flee the Scholars and lived on the periphery of the Muslim world.

  63. So Much For Subtlety

    ukliberty – “Well, let’s mirror Mehdi’s position: the rise of ISIL and increased risk of domestic terrorism have nothing whatsoever to do with our overseas adventures. Is that a wholly reasonable position?”

    Yes.

  64. “The Golden Age of Islam was a thousand years ago. Al-Khwarizmi developed algebra and algorithms. Al-Ḥaytham was the first real experimental scientist. Omar Khayyam developed Khayyam’s triangle…yadda yadda yadda.
    How often do we have to hear this crap?
    Islam came out of Arabia, on camel back, with bunch of desert nomads knew fuck all but stealing goats, raping & killing.They imposed their rule on a highly developed civilisation that, not long before, had been the Roman Empire. Are we supposed to believe all these educated people just went away? All the wonderful things credited to Islam are actually the product of a thousand year inheritance, has nothing to do with Muhammad & his followers. They’re just the people got their heads on coins. Rulers & conquerers aren’t educated. They’re fighters.
    You’d have similar if the Mongols had conquered Europe. It wouldn’t mean all Europeans would be living in yurts. Paris would still have been a city. It would likely have a university. Roger Bacon might well have gone there to study. But he would have had an asiatic name & spoken a dialect of Mongol.
    The original inhabitants most always end up culturally dominating because, for instance, they’re the ones with the agricultural toolbox for producing food from their land. Their new rulers haven’t

  65. ‘But, they import them en masse with no way of weeding out the scumbags, and unfortunately there’s a pretty high percentage of the moderates who actually don’t mind what the nutters do.’ – Flubber

    “You knew I was a snake when you took me in.” – Phaedrus.

    We have been warned by various fables and parables for 2,000 years not to take in snakes. When you are bit by a snake, is it the snake’s fault? No, it is just being a snake. Paris has a snake pit, yet they adventure elsewhere.

    I think Mr. Putin gets it. ISIS screwed up fatally attacking Russia. We assisted resistance to Russia in Afghanistan in the 80s; we will not in Syria/Iraq now. We are on their side.

  66. So Much For Subtlety

    Flubber – “But, they import them en masse with no way of weeding out the scumbags, and unfortunately there’s a pretty high percentage of the moderates who actually don’t mind what the nutters do. Our problem are the British and EU governments, who in turn are having their strings pulled by the elites who insist we should be mixed together and that European culture and history is not worth defending cos Nationalism = Racism = War”

    It is not just the governments. It is the Leftists that educate and influence them. They not only don’t think Western civilisation is worth defending, they actively want to destroy it. It is bizarre that the best comment on this should have come from the low-life pick up artist Heartise:

    This is all so drearily familiar.

    – White Western nation opens borders to millions of muslim migrants.
    – A muslim terror ring pulls off an attack in the heart of said White Western nation.
    – Western nation responds with moments of silence, effete symbols of solidarity, reaffirmations of commitment to multicultural dispossession of native Whites, and a few bombs flung from the stratosphere onto abandoned campsites in the desert.
    – Bubba cheers.
    – Western leaders ignore nation’s open borders, preferring instead to acculturate its citizens to expect more genital patdowns of elderly nuns at the airport.
    – muslims continue streaming into Western nation, more embittered and full of rage against the West.
    – Another attack in heart of Western nation. Trend is toward higher kill ratios.
    – Another bombing sortie against the desert.
    – Bubba cheers.
    – Western leaders ignore nation’s open borders, engage in all-out semantic war against “nativists”, and issue a flurry of executive orders bringing more muslim refugees into Paris and Mobile, Alabama.

    Repeat ad infinitum until demographic and spiritual displacement of Whites from their homelands is complete.

    Something’s got to break the cycle. Will Bubba eventual stop getting deliriously distracted by desert bombing sorties long enough to WAKE UP to what is really happening to him and his kind?

    Hollande is decrying the poor little Muslims suffering from White people being mean to them already.

    Europe should be for Europeans. Algerians did not want to be part of France when Algeria was part of France. There is no reason to enrich the world with a second Algeria.

  67. Bloke in North Dorset

    Slightly OT.

    I see that ISIS is claiming to have killed a Chinese hostage.

    Poking Russia and China is going to bring about revenge like they’ve never seen and they’re going to wish they’d kept to the soft West.

  68. According to the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap report, the ten worst countries to be a woman are: Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, Chad, Iran, Jordan, Morocco, Lebanon, Mali and Egypt right at the bottom.

    Small wonder that western feminists are constantly up in arms about the way Islamic countries treat women.

  69. ” How was anyone to predict that the Iraqis did not want freedom, democracy and human rights but to go at each other’s knee caps with power drills? Who predicted that?”

    Well, yougoslavia comes to mind. Based on previous history, It didn’t take a genius to guess what would happen, but then again, I don’t see many geniuses in charge of governments anywhere in the west.

  70. Based on previous history, It didn’t take a genius to guess what would happen, but then again, I don’t see many geniuses in charge of governments anywhere in the west.

    That’s a fair point, but I thought in 2003 we had supposedly moved beyond “the darkies cannot govern themselves without collapsing into a violent basket-case”. I suppose it is fashionable again now.

  71. So Much For Subtlety

    monoi – “Well, yougoslavia comes to mind. Based on previous history, It didn’t take a genius to guess what would happen, but then again, I don’t see many geniuses in charge of governments anywhere in the west.”

    No one did. Not a single academic. Not a single think tank. No one. Yugoslavia is interesting but once they changed the Serbian government, the violence stopped. Sure, they have not got the Bosnians to settle down yet but they are not killing each other.

    Tim Newman – “That’s a fair point, but I thought in 2003 we had supposedly moved beyond “the darkies cannot govern themselves without collapsing into a violent basket-case”. I suppose it is fashionable again now.”

    The fact that the Third World cannot govern itself is the Little Black Dress of the political world. Sure, it may not look good on everyone and it is not suited for every occasion, but it never goes out of style.

  72. Three points:

    – the last 35 years of Western intervention in the Middle East have made things worse – worse for the people who live there, and worse for us. But better for the terrorists. This is not a matter of assigning blame – blame the humanitarian left if you want – it’s a matter of making wiser choices. Any time we’re contemplating funding or arming a rebel faction, or sending in troops to fight, or conducting bombing campaigns (drones included) we should ask ourselves: what is this supposed to achieve, how long will it take to achieve it, how will we know whether it’s worked, what will be the new status if it does work, and how many innocent people will die in the process. Bomb Raqqa you say. OK, what is that supposed to achieve that hasn’t been achieved by all the bombing of Raqqa we’ve already done? And if it achieves it, will the ISIL threat to the West be diminished?

    – Islam has many ugly things associated with it. So does Christianity. So does atheism. It’s not the religion, or lack of it, that’s the problem, it’s the people, and the structure they operate in. There were hundreds of medieval years in which Islamic countries were the best places to be a mathematician or scientist: algebra, algorithm, altair, aldebaran – there’s a reason for these words. There’s potential for enlightenment in any country with any religion. But you’ll never bomb anyone into it.

    – “Naturally Paul here is blaming the Jews for everything”.
    If you find yourself on the same side of the argument as someone stupid enough to write that, you should think it very possible that you may be mistaken.

  73. ‘Islam has many ugly things associated with it. So does Christianity. So does atheism. It’s not the religion, or lack of it, that’s the problem, it’s the people, and the structure they operate in.’

    You should have stopped after the first sentence.

    This isn’t about Christianity or atheism (what ugly things???).

    It is the religion. The Koran is a book of hate. Why does Britain allow it? Hate speech laws don’t apply to Muslims?

  74. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “the last 35 years of Western intervention in the Middle East have made things worse – worse for the people who live there, and worse for us. But better for the terrorists.”

    How do you know? On what evidence do you claim to know this? You have special access to a magic ball?

    “Bomb Raqqa you say. OK, what is that supposed to achieve that hasn’t been achieved by all the bombing of Raqqa we’ve already done?”

    The recent French bombings in Raqqa were the first time anyone bombed Raqqa lately.

    “Islam has many ugly things associated with it. So does Christianity. So does atheism. It’s not the religion, or lack of it, that’s the problem, it’s the people, and the structure they operate in.”

    On the contrary, in the West people have killed each other but they have never turned on each other with this level of violence. Islam is uniquely associated with incredible levels of violence. This is not really a matter of dispute. Atheism is, of course, worse.

    “There were hundreds of medieval years in which Islamic countries were the best places to be a mathematician or scientist: algebra, algorithm, altair, aldebaran – there’s a reason for these words.”

    I doubt that is true. There is a reason for those words but it has nothing to do with Islam or even Muslims.

    “There’s potential for enlightenment in any country with any religion. But you’ll never bomb anyone into it.”

    Japan seems pretty enlightened to me.

    “If you find yourself on the same side of the argument as someone stupid enough to write that, you should think it very possible that you may be mistaken.”

    Says someone on the same side as the StW and of course ISIS. You need to refuse to accept brown people are ever responsible for anything. Because you need to believe White people are to blame for everything. It is worse than tiresome. It is trite.

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