Pity…….

Latest information says that at least 120 people are believed to have been killed in six separate attacks across the city.

Two hundred people are injured, 80 seriously.

At the Bataclan concert venue, 87 people have been reported dead.

At the Stade de France, the Paris prosecutor François Molins said “some” were killed, possibly three. (It is not clear whether this include the attackers thought to have died here.)

At the shootings at the Rue de Charonne, 18 are dead.

At Boulevard Voltaire, one person is dead.

At Rue de la Fontaine au Roi, five are dead.

At Rue Alibert, 14 are dead and “many seriously injured”.

The eight attackers are also dead, seven of them after detonating suicide belts.

….those belts weren’t detonated a little earlier…..

It’s obviously jihadi someone but jihadi which?

59 thoughts on “Pity…….”

  1. I had two friends who were out in popular nightspots that fortunately weren’t targeted. I was in Exeter last night, so thankfully nowhere near it. After the piss-weak, handwringing response to Charlie Hebdo last January, Round 2 has hardly come as a surprise. We need more than hashtags and candlelit vigils, we need some leadership and governance. And the very first thing to do is state very loudly and clearly that this has *everything* to do with Islam. But I expect our glorious leaders will trip over themselves to assure us this has “nothing to do with Islam”.

  2. I noticed The Guardian have started victim blaming already, which is odd given they normally kick and scream about anyone else doing so.

    “The resentment of disaffected young men and women from a disadvantaged community frequently discriminated against in education, employment and housing has been further fuelled by largely symbolic measures they feel have been taken against Islam under France’s strong secular tradition, such as the 2010 ban on wearing full-face veils in public.”

  3. At what point does someone decide to do to Raqqa what was done to Dresden? Seriously- it’s gone past the point where we can convincingly claim this isn’t a war, however asymmetric the conflict.

  4. An example of the wonderful enrichment that Ms Coppolla wanted the UK to get in order to rid us of our xenophobic ways.

  5. Ugh. Sorry Tim N, not with you on this one. You’re sailing a bit too close to thoughtcrime for my liking.

    Yes, these acts were rooted in Islam, themed by Islam (and probably driven by some of the ‘disadvantages’ mentioned by the guardian, and probably some of the violent narcissism that seems to be the norm these days.)

    But I will condemn them for being terrorists, scumbags slaughtering bystanders because they are too dumb or uncaring to make their argument any other way. Destroying the culture because they can’t have their way with it.

    They shouldn’t be defended, but only because they are monsters, not because of the skin they’ve wrapped their monsterdom in.

  6. Why didn’t they hang on for the U2 concert Bono has now chickened out of? He is sure to have made a speech about welcoming the young military aged males streaming into Europe.

  7. @Ljh: yes, I went to one of the U2 gigs at the O2 a few weeks ago, and there was a big moral high ground shtick about allowing in loads of refugees in the accompanying video show. Might not go down to well in Paris right now I guess.

    On the main issue, I’ve been saying for some time now that this will go on and on, getting worse and worse until we finally decide to take serious action against Islam. I personally think we should allow Muslims the same rights in the West as Christians are allowed in Saudi Arabia.

  8. Jim: No one who does not share the essential values of liberal democracy ie equality before the law (no exceptions, no privileges); freedom of speech ( and to offend) without sanction; and freedom of conscience (to apostasize from liberalism, political correctness, Islam, AGWarmongering, identity politics, etc) should be allowed to share the benefits of these societies. Only fair.

  9. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34819181

    Interesting that under the headline “Lies” he makes reference to Donald Trump saying that France suffered the Charlie Hebdo attack despite having strict gun laws.

    In what sense is that a lie? Is a lie now saying something a person doesn’t like? Taking advantage of an incident for political gain – wow, that never happens to others does it? I mean, when some black kid gets shot by a police officer in the USA, his body is barely cool before Progressives are exploiting it for political gain. You don’t see that reported under the headline “Lies”.

  10. One thing keeps nagging at me… “What the FUCK do they think that they’re trying to achieve?”..

    They’re taking a grave risk with the sometimes-displayed absolutism of the French who might just decide “stuff this for a lark” and start rounding up everyone named Mohammed, everyone married to a Mohammed, all their children and grandchildren and ship the whole bloody lot off to Syria, regardless of where they came from originally… Then nuke the place.

  11. It’s obviously jihadi someone but jihadi which?

    Does it really matter at this point Tim?

    Everything we’ve been told about diversity, immigration and multiculturalism is a bloody lie.

    We can’t live with them.

  12. Rob, reading that article I took the lies to mean people being disingenuous and sharing an old Trump tweet and condemning him for trying to get political capital from this event.

  13. One thing keeps nagging at me… “What the FUCK do they think that they’re trying to achieve?”..

    They’re pushing the boundaries of how far the West will allow them to massacre people and respond by banning things the perpetrators don’t like and enacting policies which favor the perpetrators. At this point, they’re probably gobsmacked at how much they’ve been allowed to get away with. The endgame for them is to destroy our societal cohesion, get the population cowering in fear and defenseless, and then take over. It’s going pretty well, so far.

  14. @Pogo: agreed. The French are known for occasionally declaring something a waste of time and going all reactionary. The DGSE (as was) have had some rowdy days in their past.

    I mean, Christ: it they take military action against *Greenpeace*, Ffs, can you imagine what options are being warmed over for M. Hollande right now?

  15. NielsR,

    They are not just terrorists and scumbags, they are Islamic terrorists and scumbags. Everything they do they can find justification for in the life of that murdering bandit, Mohammed, the revelation he fabricated and in the Hadith.

    It may be an unpalatable and awkward truth, but Islam is the problem and the solution has to recognise it.

  16. What’s alarming about the Paris events is that friends or relatives of the gun-men didn’t out them while they were preparing the attacks. I hope the UK public is better than this if we see a friend or son going running with a suicide belt on to check the straps fit, or similar.

    Two hundred or so are dead, and everyone else will lose a little liberty now because there will be more traction for the evidence-free claim that more restrictions and more government snooping will make us safer.

  17. ‘The resentment of disaffected young men and women from a disadvantaged community frequently discriminated against in education, employment and housing’

    I find this shit astonishing. Young muslims in France get free education, free housing and there are plenty of jobs for those who don’t insist on clocking off every half hour to pray. That’s some kind of discrimination.

    Disadvantage? How about you build a fucking working country where yoyur tribe isn’t beheading their tribe, and a functioning culture where people who don’t follow your bizarre beliefs re sausages and wine are treated with some degree of respect, rather than destroying whatever patch of sand you come from and then travelling to Europe to leech off those whose ancestors did build a decent country and culture? That way you could produce your own ‘advantage’?

    And that travelling… what level of cognitive dissonance do you have to labour under to see millions of muslims battling to get into France while the other side of your brain thinks muslims in France live lives of deprivation and abuse?

    The usual crew will look at some of the above comments and start whining about racism, and islamophobia, but it would be nice if they could tell us (and the security services) what magic antennae they use to separate the undoubted law-abiding muslims from these scum? Because as last night showed us, the finest intel people in France can’t do it very easily.

    The problem is these cunts are hiding in plain sight. I predict many more such incidents before we finally reach some sort of decision about islam and the west.

    Personally, I would bring all our troops home, raze every mosque to the ground and proscribe their religion. If they really must worship ‘allah’ then there are plenty of countries to which they can go to do so.

  18. @Andrew Carey

    ‘What’s alarming about the Paris events is that friends or relatives of the gun-men didn’t out them while they were preparing the attacks. I hope the UK public is better than this if we see a friend or son going running with a suicide belt on to check the straps fit, or similar.’

    See the post Charlie Hebdo BBC poll in which tens of thousands of British muslims said that they supported those attacks and would not inform the authorities if they knew of similar attacks here.

  19. One thing keeps nagging at me… “What the FUCK do they think that they’re trying to achieve?”..

    They achieved it already. Kill lots of infidels.

    what level of cognitive dissonance do you have to labour under to see millions of muslims battling to get into France while the other side of your brain thinks muslims in France live lives of deprivation and abuse?

    This. The sort of level which makes someone read the Guardian every day?

    Young muslims in France get free education, free housing and there are plenty of jobs for those who don’t insist on clocking off every half hour to pray. That’s some kind of discrimination.

    Young white British males do worst in the UK today. Note the lack of suicide bombings and massacres.

  20. Actually, would I raze every mosque? No. There are lots of decent non-insane muslims, why should they suffer? Better to expel people who talk openly of murdering British troops, police officers, and short-skirt-wearing women (aka ‘slags’), and anyone who sympathises with them.

  21. What’s alarming about the Paris events is that friends or relatives of the gun-men didn’t out them while they were preparing the attacks.

    This is the problem with tribal societies: the family bonds trump everything else. In the west, the asshole, criminal brother gets disowned and not invited to Xmas dinner. In tribal societies, everything gets excused because he’s family, and he continues as before.

  22. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34819181

    Interesting that under the headline “Lies” he makes reference to Donald Trump saying that France suffered the Charlie Hebdo attack despite having strict gun laws.

    In what sense is that a lie?

    That Trump’s tweet from January is being re-tweeted by people as if Trump posted it in the last 24 hours. The article isn’t saying Trump lied.

  23. Re: TN

    “They’re pushing the boundaries of how far the West will allow them to massacre people and respond by banning things the perpetrators don’t like and enacting policies which favor the perpetrators. At this point, they’re probably gobsmacked at how much they’ve been allowed to get away with. The endgame for them is to destroy our societal cohesion, get the population cowering in fear and defenseless, and then take over. It’s going pretty well, so far.”

    All according to plan. The elites, as represented by people like Peter Sutherland, the ex-Goldmans Banker, now head of Migration at the UN – have decided that National Homogeneity is a bad thing.

    Mix us up, lob in a load of radical Islam to destabilize everything, remove our liberty in the name of security, call us racist when we object etc etc

    Its all a plan. They get absolute power. We get screwed. Our kids and grand-kids better learn the Koran.

  24. What we need is total internment of all Muslims, radical or not. They need to be shipped to these centres from wherever else they live in the UK.

    We already have the infrastructure, just need to start building some fences and walls to keep them in.

    Bradford and Luton should be ideal.

  25. Hi interested,
    I saw that survey about Muslim attitudes to the Charlie Hebdo attack. The headline number looked bad, but the box of stats at the bottom of this daily mail piece makes the UK look better.
    Alas, we don’t have directly comparable surveys for French Muslims or even Corbyn voters which might be revealing in terms of loyalty to Queen and country.

    I don’t think new laws are needed here though, apart from the max two children on welfare rule from 2017 which clearly discriminates against people with a plan to serve their God through multiplication.

  26. “Everything we’ve been told about diversity, immigration and multiculturalism is a bloody lie.”

    Well, not quite. The last time I looked Mr Patel wasn’t trying to kill me, neither was Mr Goldberg, or Mr Wong, or Mr Singh. I’m quite happy to celebrate Diwali or Hanukkah, or rub the belly of Mr Wong’s Buddha, or allow Mr Singh to not wear a crash helmet on his motor bike, because none of the above deny my equal status with them as a human being.

    Multiculturalism can work, indeed does work (by and large in the UK) but just not with Islam. It’s incompatible with the rest of humanity in its current form.

    And its no good saying ‘But X% of muslims are peaceful etc etc ‘. We didn’t say in 1939 that only a small % of Germans were Nazi’s therefore we weren’t going to attack Germany, we reduced the entire country (eventually) to rubble and told the survivors to start again, and play nicely with everyone else this time.

    I was reading just yesterday evening (as the Paris attacks were about to unfold) a piece about the German Blitz on Coventry. In that raid 568 people were killed. Add up how many have been killed by Islamic terrorists in Europe over last 10 years and you won’t be far off. Thats the reality of what we are facing.

  27. @DocBud: “but Islam is the problem and the solution has to recognise it.” – funny, I thought this blog was broadly in favour of free exchange of ideas, and against ideas of wrongthink. Islam is an idea. It might be on a par with fascism, communism, and Scientology, but I prefer to condemn people for their actions. The terrorists from last night? Hang any survivors, scrape up the bits of the ones that blew up and feed the whole lot to the pigs.

    “They’re pushing the boundaries of how far the West will allow them to massacre people and respond by banning things the perpetrators don’t like and enacting policies which favor the perpetrators. ” – Why? Surely this is a ‘purity’ movement, why would they care about compromise and slow revolution? Seems to me the point is to create an environment hostile to all Muslims, push the moderates into radicalising. Maybe get the US to stomp around the Middle East some more, knowing that it’s impossible for the West to win that way, but all too easy to look bad.
    “What we need is total internment of all Muslims” – BraveFart

    “What’s alarming about the Paris events is that friends or relatives of the gun-men didn’t out them while they were preparing the attacks.” – So much this. Though I doubt it’s unique to ‘tribal’ cultures.
    This is where the wedge should be applied. A culture has to be self-regulating to survive, without tipping over into some form of authoritarianism.
    Nutters are common, it’s not like Islam has a monopoly on them. They can appropriate any idea system to justify themselves. Anyone who wants to preserve the culture that they live in should accept the duty to deal with those that want to destroy it, whether it’s the next Jihadi John, Anders Breivik, homeopaths, or whoever.

    Interested, Rob, others: “what level of cognitive dissonance do you have to labour under…”

    Right – but are we then saying SJWism is as dangerous an idea as Islam? That’s actually a serious question, as it seems to be amazingly good at breeding people who feel they don’t get what they’re entitled to, and are willing to dehumanise their opponents to get it.

  28. Thoughtful post Niels, and interesting analysis. Are you suggesting dealing more harshly with folks we catch agitating? Does that just not open us up to the same responses from ISIS as sending troops in? They seem to be on a forward March with no compromises, and short of meeting them head on, I’m not sure I see a solution?

  29. “but it would be nice if they could tell us (and the security services) what magic antennae they use to separate the undoubted law-abiding muslims from these scum?”

    Well I certainly have no such magic antenna. But given that nobody else on this blog has either, perhaps you could tell us what steps you would now take regarding those undoubted law-abiding muslims.

  30. I was reading just yesterday evening (as the Paris attacks were about to unfold) a piece about the German Blitz on Coventry. In that raid 568 people were killed. Add up how many have been killed by Islamic terrorists in Europe over last 10 years and you won’t be far off. Thats the reality of what we are facing.

    Quite, it’s relatively insignificant compared to a state of total war…

  31. UN estimates 220,000 killed in Syria between 15 March 2011 and 15 January 2015, the equivalent of 156 killed per day.

    I can’t think why Syrians might want to emigrate.

  32. NielsR,

    There are ideas that are just plain wrong, socks with sandals being an obvious one. Islam was the invention of Mohammed as a means of controlling his followers. Mohammed was an evil shit so it is not surprising that the cult he invented is equally evil. There is conclusive evidence for this throughout the Islamic world which is exclusively, to a greater or lesser degree, full of oppressive, despotic regimes where basic human rights are denied.

    The Age of Enlightenment and Islam are incompatible, we need to decide which one we want to end up with.

  33. “the Islamic world which is exclusively, to a greater or lesser degree, full of oppressive, despotic regimes where basic human rights are denied.”

    No, not exclusively. Not even approaching close to exclusively. So, if Evil is the yardstick for the sort of.measures we seem to be proposing, we had better start tooling up for our assault on the entire world.

  34. I see that Brazil is planning to relax gun ownership and possession laws to let ordinary people try to protect themselves against serious criminality problems.

    I doubt very much that the UK or France are clever enough to see the parallels.

  35. See the post Charlie Hebdo BBC poll in which tens of thousands of British muslims said that they supported those attacks and would not inform the authorities if they knew of similar attacks here.

    If you mean the ComRes poll for the BBC, 1000 Muslims were interviewed, 94% agreed with the statement “If someone I knew from the Muslim community was planning an act of violence I would report them to the police”, 5% disagreed.

  36. Ironman,

    Name one Islamic state that is not despotic.

    Western states should be protecting their citizens, which means getting rid of the evil of Islam. They’d be doing Muslim citizens a great service by rescuing them from this pernicious cult.

  37. @john square

    ‘Agitating’ is difficult, as always. Free speech is hardly a settled issue. Someone advocating specific acts of violence needs to be leant on, possibly prosecuted. Beyond that, I’m not convinced the state has the tools to apply sufficiently nuanced pressure. Probably the main reason I would prefer to stomp harder on acts, and try to keep the state out of thoughts. I do think that deliberately protecting violent nutters should be prosecuted.

    I think our society can only survive by persuading the vast majority of it’s population that it’s run on the better principles, and that there’s no profit in violent revolution. Mass internment doesn’t sound like a principle I’d like to try to defend, really.

    It’s far from foolproof. History is littered with cultures choking to death on one bad idea or another. It’ll take a massive amount of work, from pretty much everyone. But in my opinion any other path is destroying the village in order to save it.

  38. @DocBud

    “There are ideas that are just plain wrong” – yes, but the problem is that not a single person on this planet has ever thought that *their* idea is one of the ‘just plain wrong’ ones. Or that it might be practically indistinguishable from the ‘just plain wrong’ ones espoused by the nutter down the street.

    And in any case Islam like any other religion is an aggregation of ideas, with the overt nature of the religion changing as different ideas within the while gain prominence.

    “The Age of Enlightenment and Islam are incompatible, we need to decide which one we want to end up with.”
    I’d agree with this. But do you think locking up anyone that quite likes some n% of the ideas making up Islam is the best defense the Age of Enlightenment can come up with?

  39. Dongguan John,

    Never been to Malaysia, spent a lot of time working in Indonesia. Relatively speaking, it’s not bad in relative terms, but I’d never ask the wife to live there.

  40. NielsR,

    Islam is not a religion, it is a cult no less pernicious than those of David Koresh or Jim Jones. Just as the world is a better place for the elimination of the latter, the world would be all the better if Islam did not exist. I’m always happy to debate the nature and origins of Islam but the response is always that I’m an Islamaphobic bigot because believing that the whole foundation of Islam is a fabrication by the utter bastard Mohammed is not a legitimate world view. By contrast, believing that Islam is a religion of peace despite all evidence to the contrary is the only view expected of right thinking people.

  41. “What’s alarming about the Paris events is that friends or relatives of the gun-men didn’t out them while they were preparing the attacks.”

    The family are probably still in Syria with no idea that they were involved, and no functional authorities to tell even if they did.

    Which doesn’t mean they would have ratted given the opportunity.

  42. @DocBud

    The whole ‘Religion of Peace’ thing just desperately slapping a label on something to make it true. I’ve got no time for that either.

    Vice versa, Islam is as much a fabrication as Christianity and all the other bullshit. Christianity has just had some of the more absolutist edges knocked off by being tossed around the Enlightenment for centuries.

    What makes Islam particularly cult-like?

  43. @NeilsR

    “I think our society can only survive by persuading the vast majority of it’s population that it’s run on the better principles, and that there’s no profit in violent revolution.”
    Very sensible, and certain to convince those of a reasonable rational mindset. It’s the ones that won’t be convinced that worry me. And I think those are the problem. Seriously, I knew people who were all in favour of the armed struggle for Irish freedom, and who would have taken up arms were they in Belfast. However, when in England, they didn’t. Not because they were hypocrites, but because they viewed that struggle as limited by the geographic limits of Eire. I don’t see that with ISIS.

    “Mass internment doesn’t sound like a principle I’d like to try to defend, really.” Me either. I’d prefer a flattening of ISIS in situ, and vigorous pursuit of the flagwavers over here. And if the less extreme Muslims find that discriminatory, or giving the impression of Islamophobia, that’s a shame, but perhaps necessary to drive out the nutters from their own communities. Which is perhaps (again) a shame that they need to do that, but whilst people are dying, a few bruised egos aren’t the worst of our problems.

    (Your post was superb, btw)

  44. @john square

    kind of you to say, but it’s all rather hand-wavy hopey-changey stuff. It would require the man in the street to distinguish between the moderate muslims who might be so insular he has never gotten to know them, and the jihadi who has just bombed the cafe his wife was sitting in.
    It would require politicians able to take measured, principled action to contain ISIS, fighting to support clear goals to avoid being painted as indiscriminately bombing brown people purely to protect their oil interests.
    It would require the press to put away their lazy stereotypes and ill-informed commentary. Or rather, for the media-consuming public to show a clear preference for them to do do so.

    It’s hard to be optimistic when we’re facing a threat like this at a time when we’ve become masters of the trivial distraction and the diy echo chamber.

  45. “But do you think locking up anyone that quite likes some n% of the ideas making up Islam is the best defense the Age of Enlightenment can come up with?”

    What did we do when we were fighting Nazism? Did we say in 1939 ‘You know what Fritz, despite you only having arrived here from Germany 2 years ago, and despite you displaying a remarkable penchant for goose stepping around the town square dressed in SS uniform, we’re not going to intern you for the duration of the war, because of the Age of Enlightenment. Just be a good boy and don’t go around radioing the whereabouts of our aircraft factories to Uncle Adolf either’?

  46. “tell us what steps you would now take regarding those undoubted law-abiding muslims.”

    No access to the UK for those not already here. Choice of internment camp in the Falkland Islands or deportation to an Islamic country of their choice plus a cash sum for those already here.

    Islam has a fair percentage of nutters that want to kill lots of people and destroy civilisation, especially Western Christian and Jewish civilisation. Everywhere Islam is, these people are present too. And Islam is uniquely weak in its ability to resist their influence compared to other religions, because the founder of Islam was just this kind of nutter himself. Therefore it doesn’t make any sense to allow Islam to be here and we should take steps to make sure it isn’t.

    If we think we can prevent calamity by allowing continued Islamic immigration while intercepting more emails, spying on more people, and developing a more totalitarian and all-encompassing state then we are wrong. All that will happen is that we will be obliterated by demographics until one day we are a minority in our own ex country. The beefed up security apparatus will be very useful to our new rulers I am sure. It is simply a numbers game and we are losing it right now in Europe. No western government policy addresses this.

  47. NielsR,

    We know exactly how and why Islam was created. It was dreamed up by a murdering, robbing warlord as a means to control his followers. The significant difference between Mohammad’s cult and those of David Koresh and Jim Jones was timing. In the 7th century, Islam was able to take hold and spread through violent conquest (Europe should celebrate Charles Martel Day to give thanks that we did not become Islamic in the 8th century). If Mohammad lived today and tried to invent his cult, rational people would see his cult exactly for the utter bollocks that it is.

  48. So Much For Subtlety

    Dongguan John – “Indonesia and Malaysia are probably the best examples to offer… Which isn’t saying much.”

    Malaysia recently said it would remove the Emergency Laws that enable the government to jail without trial and so on. Then they thought about it and changed their minds. Those laws are still in place.

    Countries with large numbers of Muslim torture. We have decided to be the former so we will inevitably become the latter too.

  49. And Malaysia is probably the closest example to a ‘decent’ Muslim country. The only reason it’s done relatively well is because the Malays make up only about 3/5ths. The ethnic Chinese create all the wealth while the Malays do their best to prevent them.

  50. @UKL “If you mean the ComRes poll for the BBC, 1000 Muslims were interviewed, 94% agreed with the statement “If someone I knew from the Muslim community was planning an act of violence I would report them to the police”, 5% disagreed.”

    Yep, that’s precisely the one. Now, unless you disagree with the methodology and have issues with COMRES and the BBC, and are against extrapolation, can you tell me what five per cent of the U.K. Muslim population is? Because I said tens of thousands and I assume you are disputing that?

    @Ironman

    “Well I certainly have no such magic antenna. But given that nobody else on this blog has either, perhaps you could tell us what steps you would now take regarding those undoubted law-abiding muslims.”

    None. They’re law abiding, you tool.

    The issue is what we allow those who hate us to do and how we deal with it.

  51. What did we do when we were fighting Nazism? Did we say in 1939 ‘You know what Fritz, despite you only having arrived here from Germany 2 years ago, and despite you displaying a remarkable penchant for goose stepping around the town square dressed in SS uniform, we’re not going to intern you for the duration of the war, because of the Age of Enlightenment. Just be a good boy and don’t go around radioing the whereabouts of our aircraft factories to Uncle Adolf either’?

    1. We aren’t in something approaching a state of total war; as Jim capably pointed out, fewer people have died in attacks across Europe in the past ten years than in one night’s bombing of Coventry in the Second World War. We are simply not engaged in a war against an entity capable of subjugating or destroying dear old Blighty. And to suggest otherwise is to help the terrorists.

    2. If we were engaged in a state of total war, I for one would support the internment of several hundred individuals if they were investigated and thought to be high-risk, I would support keeping an eye on many others, and I would support letting many more go free, just like wot happened at the beginning of the Second World War. They didn’t intern every foreigner.

    (then over the next couple of years -ish we got more frightened and interned more people, including Jewish refugees – because they were counted as Germans and Austrians – before releasing many in ’41 and deporting others. But we didn’t intern them all, forever, despite the huge threat to the country from Germany.)

    3. We have had internment more recently, and I’m not talking about in Ireland. When Blair, Blunkett et al said the UK was in a state of “public emergency threatening the life of the nation”. And more sober heads suggested that was hyperbolic; while not denying the seriousness of bombs on the Underground, it wasn’t quite the same as German armour sitting on the other side of the Channel and German planes flying through British skies, and we ought to think about where we were going with it.

  52. Interested,

    @UKL “If you mean the ComRes poll for the BBC, 1000 Muslims were interviewed, 94% agreed with the statement “If someone I knew from the Muslim community was planning an act of violence I would report them to the police”, 5% disagreed.”

    Yep, that’s precisely the one. Now, unless you disagree with the methodology and have issues with COMRES and the BBC, and are against extrapolation, can you tell me what five per cent of the U.K. Muslim population is? Because I said tens of thousands and I assume you are disputing that?

    I primarily reacted to your use of absolute numbers instead of proportions; my point was that the vast majority of respondents said they would inform the authorities, just for a little balance to the atmosphere here.

    My secondary, pedantic point was that it is wrong of you to claim “tens of thousands of British muslims said that they supported those attacks and would not inform the authorities if they knew of similar attacks here”, because “tens of thouands” didn’t “say” what you claimed. And that is why I implicitly questioned whether we were talking about the same poll – there may well be be a poll that you are aware of that I am not aware of. It’s nice to be aware that we’re discussing the same thing instead of arguing about different things.

    Had you said something like, “5% of respondents disagreed with the statement, ‘if someone I knew from the Muslim community was planning an act of violence I would report them to the police”‘ it’s unlikely I would have piped up about it (although I would have quietly wondered what the rate is among the rest of the population).

    Also, iirc the margin of error on a sample size of 1000 people is ±3%.

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