Milos Zeman is not the brightest President in the Presidium

Czech president Milos Zeman, known for his fiery anti-migrant rhetoric, claimed on Sunday it was “practically impossible” to integrate the Muslim community into European society.

“The experience of western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible,” Zeman said in a televised interview.

“Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne,” he added, referring to the mass New Year’s Eve assaults on women in Germany and elsewhere.

It is, of course, entirely possible to integrate Muslims into western European countries and cultures.

The important bit being to attempt to integrate, not to attempt to have a multicultural series of ghettoes.

That is, our gaff, our rules, and sure, you can believe in any flavour of the sky fairy you like. But it really is our gaff and our rules.

126 thoughts on “Milos Zeman is not the brightest President in the Presidium”

  1. “The important bit being to attempt to integrate, not to attempt to have a multicultural series of ghettoes.”
    If you mean integrate as not have any Islamic inspired violence no country has achieved it yet. It might be possible as might be faster than light travel!

  2. The problem is, they can only integrate by becoming less muslim, that is, culturally Western. If they don’t, then like Orthodox Jews, they remain ghettoised by choice. Because of the requirement for cultural practises which create cultural separation; which is the precise reason that those practices exist in the first place. The OT and Quran are basically lists of “how to distinguish yourselves from everybody else”.

    And I don’t see at all why we have any responsibility to accept people who don’t want to be like us, then have to find some way to make them more like us. There are lots of Islamic countries in the world that they can live in. Let them do so.

  3. It is, of course, entirely possible to integrate Muslims into western European countries and cultures

    Possible but not practical. What are we gonna do? Force them to spread out, rather than live in ethnic ghettoes? Ban foreign TV and force them to watch Emmerdale? Make them marry ginger girls?

    Multiculturalism has obviously failed, but integration has failed too – the French have been stubbornly trying for decades, and don’t have any happier an experience with Islam than we do.

    So what do we want? A liberal democracy, or Islam? Can’t have both.

    Time to cut our losses.

  4. I’m not known as an optimist, but it seems to me that we may look back at 2015 as the year that Neo-Progressivism started crumbling.

  5. They can integrate; they just choose not to. To be fair, Brits in Spain or France often don’t make much effort to integrate either. Between the internet and cheap flights, it has never been easier to stay in touch with one’s native culture.

    There’s a fine article in The American Conservative that has been doing the rounds this week. It’s rather long (though well worth the read), but here’s one relevant quote:

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/unmaking-england/

    The result, as Trevor Phillips asserted in a speech focusing on Pakistani and Bangladeshi neighborhoods, is that “Residentially, some districts are on their way to becoming fully fledged ghettos—black holes into which no-one goes without fear and trepidation, and from which no-one ever escapes undamaged.” Two-thirds of British Muslims only mix socially with other Muslims; that portion is undoubtedly higher among Pakistanis and Bangladeshis specifically. Reinforcing this parallel life is the common practice of returning “home” for a few months every two or three years and an immersion in foreign electronic media. Integration into a wider national life is further hindered—and the retention of a deeply foreign culture is further encouraged—by the fact that most Pakistani marriages, even if one spouse is born in Britain, essentially produce first-generation-immigrant children: the one study that measured this phenomenon, conducted in the north England city of Bradford, found that 85 percent of third- and fourth-generation British Pakistani babies had a parent who was born in Pakistan. (Incidentally, that study also found that 63 percent of Pakistani mothers in Bradford had married their cousins, and 37 percent had married first cousins.)

  6. “To be fair, Brits in Spain or France often don’t make much effort to integrate either.”

    But Brits in Spain aren’t actively hostile to Spanish culture, they don’t want to impose their religion on Spain, and they don’t go around blowing the locals up for not believing in the right God.

    “They can integrate; they just choose not to.”

    Correct.

  7. Early immigrants to this country did come here and integrate, but then the grags crawled out of their caves and noticed with horror their fellow countrymen chosing to go to the west and be westerners and slipping out of their grasp, so they had to follow them and ensure they were whipped into line.

    And, yes, it has been one particular culture. Hugenauts came here, integrated, their community leaders came here, integrated. Jews came here, integrated, their community leaders came here and integrated. West Indians, Africans, Chinese. In the early days Muslims came here and integrated, but then the grags followed them, determined to pull them back into their caves, and bringing the caves with them in their minds.

    I don’t know when it changed. It wasn’t there in the 1950s. It was there in the 2000s.

  8. To say they “can” integrate and then they “choose not to” misses the point. The only “can” issue is whether somebody “chooses” to or not. It’s not like there’s some kind of physical incompatibility. It’s all about choosing not to.

    The issue with Jews is more complex, since they tend to consist of two communities, one integrated (though retaining an ethnic identity above nationality) while the other does not integrate at all, and live in separated communities under local rules, marrying endogamously and behaving much the same as Islamic communities, other than the terrorism.

  9. I suspect early Muslim immigrants were trying to get away from the nutters, then we went and encouraged the nutters to come as well. Those poor bastards had a few years of freedom and now keeping their heads down in case someone decides they are apostate.

  10. jgh,

    > “I don’t know when it changed.”

    The article I linked to explains it:

    Over those nearly thousand years, the country took in two sizable influxes [Huguenots and Jews], each spread over a lengthy period of time and each, even given England’s far smaller population during those times, on an incomparably tinier scale than the post-1997 immigration wave.

  11. while the other does not integrate at all, and live in separated communities under local rules, marrying endogamously and behaving much the same as Islamic communities, other than the terrorism.

    And the sex crimes.

    I could also add Brits in Spain etc. Are retirees.

    No mass, organised NYE gropings by white-haired old gents with zimmer frames.

  12. I was talking to a friend at the weekend who is training as a midwife at a london hospital. She said there are lots of muslim girls in her class. And they refuse to roll up their sleeves and stuff because it would be immodest even if hygiene requires it. They think she is oppressed because she doesn’t have to wear a head covering. They are being allowed to do what they want as they are insistent. They will not bend.

  13. The result, as Trevor Phillips asserted in a speech focusing on Pakistani and Bangladeshi neighborhoods…

    Ah yes, Trevor Phillips…the chap who headed the body that made sure any attempts to discuss the problems he now talks about were shut down with howls of “racism”. What made him change his mind? His daughter brought a white guy home, or what?

  14. other than the terrorism.

    And that’s really the difference, isn’t it? Nobody cares that the Amish are Amish. But they would if the Amish started mowing down theatre-goers with AK 47s.

  15. I suspect early Muslim immigrants were trying to get away from the nutters

    Ah, the Myth of the Moderate Muslim, again. Sure, there are a few Muslims who are secularists or atheists; but the percentage must be tiny. Apart from those few, all muslims – however amiable they may appear – hold at least some views that are unacceptable to majority opinion in the West. Their doctrine of Taqiya enables them to lie about this in the interests of furthering Islam. Friendly Mohammed around the corner will metamorphose into someone altogether less friendly when he sees an opportunity to impose sharia on decadent westerners.

  16. Those poor bastards had a few years of freedom and now keeping their heads down in case someone decides they are apostate.

    I’m sure that’s the case. I’ve linked to it enough times now so I’ll not do it again, but I wrote on my blog a while back that the moderate Muslims can’t be expected to poke their heads above the parapet and condemn the crazies when our lovely western leaders pander to the crazies’ demands. I bet there are moderate Muslims all over Europe who are absolutely horrified at the nutcases the likes of Merkel has just invited in en masse: after all, the first to be targeted are the moderates and “heretics”.

    Which reminds me of when I worked in Kuwait. Apparently the average Kuwaiti never bothered too much about observing Ramadan, seeing it as a personal thing: if you want to fast, or not, up to you. Then the Kuwaiti Oil Company brought a load of Pakistanis over who started stomping about demanding everyone observe Ramadan, and the restrictions came in along with compulsory observation.

  17. “But Brits in Spain aren’t actively hostile to Spanish culture”

    Yes they are. That’s where a healthy proportion of criminals go to hide. Yay white, british criminals are better than the muslamics with their rayguns!!!1

  18. It is, of course, entirely possible to integrate Muslims into western European countries and cultures.

    No, Tim, because Islam is not just a religion but also a theocratic political ideology. Islam does not allow for a secular space in society: worshipping Allah is not a private matter, and the very existence of the infidel is an insult to Islam. Which is why President Zeman is right!

  19. Yes they are. That’s where a healthy proportion of criminals go to hide.

    Is that Frankie Goes to Hollywood I see topping the charts, or did the 1980s end already?

    The EU and extradition laws put an end to all that: they’re all in Thailand now.

  20. “Arnald

    “But Brits in Spain aren’t actively hostile to Spanish culture”

    Yes they are. That’s where a healthy proportion of criminals go to hide.”

    Oh dear.

    Criminals flocked to Spain after the lapse of the extradition treaty between the UK and Spain in 1978. Spain rapidly got a ‘Costa del Crime’ reputation. However a new treaty was signed in 1985 and northern Cyprus became the favoured place for UK criminals to flee. Even that’s changed of late.

    Anyone keeping half an eye on world affairs would have known that. Mind you, I’m not surprised you’re 20+ years out of date having read some of your other views.

    Do try and keep up.

  21. Just because a “healthy proportion of British criminals” went to Spain (assuming that’s true) doesn’t mean that the criminals are a “healthy proportion” of the Brits in Spain. There are hundreds of thousands of Brits living in Spain. Only a tiny percentage of those will be criminals.

    And no-one here is saying that British criminals in Spain, or Thailand, or wherever, are a good thing for the local culture (outside of whatever ill-begotten money they bring in). Although generally they lie low. They don’t go around preaching revolution to the youth.

    Anyone would think you’re a troll or something.

  22. They’re still in Spain

    Dirty English.

    Hmmm:

    Fatah Benlaredj, 38, originally from Algeria, rape of a seven-year-old girl in May 2007

    Mohammed Jahangir Alam, 32, originally from Bangladesh, but has lived in Bradford and Cheltenham, for rape and sexual assault. He was convicted in March 2010 and sentenced to 14 years in his absence

  23. “other than the terrorism.”
    “And that’s really the difference, isn’t it? Nobody cares that the Amish are Amish. But they would if the Amish started mowing down theatre-goers with AK 47s.”

    No, that’s not the only difference. It isn’t just about terrorism. It’s also about the long-run takeover of the West through demographics.

  24. Well, if chip shops and pubs are British Culture…

    Tel

    “They don’t go around preaching revolution to the youth.”

    No, they fuck the youth.

  25. Yes, yes TN. I’m not condoning anything, I’m highlighting that that the export of vileness is not solely the preserve of Islam.

    I know everyone likes to forget these things.

    I still maintain that with 1.6bn adherents, if they really wanted to ‘take over Western civilisation and turn England into a mosque’, they could have done it any time in the last few hundred years.

    And to hell with global trade.

  26. No, that’s not the only difference. It isn’t just about terrorism. It’s also about the long-run takeover of the West through demographics

    True, although this is only likely to happen in pockets in the foreseeable future: Britain won’t become Muslim for a loooooong time, but we might end up with Muslim enclaves run along Muslim lines which are not consistent with the rest of the country. Which, to be fair, is pretty much how the Mormon areas in the US are.

  27. Actually ‘being a British criminal hiding in Spain’ and ‘being actively hostile to Spanish culture’ are not one and the same thing. If anything I suspect they used to keep pretty quiet. The last thing you want when you are enjoying the rewards of a good few bank robberies is the local plod investigating you. Particularly the local plod who is only a few years removed from a fascist dictatorship.

    I really don’t think Ronnie Knight was out there with a placard demanding all those who insult West Ham United be beheaded, and demanding the local schools all serve pie and mash.

  28. Yes, it’s a numbers thing as well as violence, which is another reason why most people aren’t bothered about orthodox Jews in Britain or Amish in America – there simply aren’t enough of them.

  29. “It is, of course, entirely possible to integrate Muslims into western European countries and cultures.”

    I’m with Tim Newman. This statement is wrong, it is not possible, unless said Muslims become non-Muslims, which by and large they do not.

  30. Jim said:
    “I really don’t think Ronnie Knight was out there with a placard demanding all those who insult West Ham United be beheaded, and demanding the local schools all serve pie and mash.”

    Brilliant, thank you.

  31. Tel

    “It’s also about the long-run takeover of the West through demographics.”

    You really believe there’s an organised plot to take over Europe ‘through demographics’?

    Are they deliberately forcing down European birth rates, using their muslamic ray-guns?

    Are they stealing all the white babies under their burkhas and indoctrinating them to like bright coloured fabrics and turmeric?

  32. Is there a country with a well-integrated Muslim minority that’s not inclined towards terrorism?

    If you don’t count the headcases in Chechnya and Dagestan, the Tatars, Ingush, and other Muslim minorities in Russia don’t seem to cause much trouble. You could also point to Kazakhs and Kyrgyz as examples of Muslims who don’t go in for terrorism. But the ex-Soviet Muslims are a bit wishy-washy as far as Islam goes, at least for now. This is probably because the Soviets didn’t pander to them.

    To be fair, there are loads of Muslims in Thailand too and it’s only the separatists in the south on the border with Malaysia who cause any trouble. My stomping ground of Phuket has a big Muslim population, who bother nobody.

  33. “I still maintain that with 1.6bn adherents, if they really wanted to ‘take over Western civilisation and turn England into a mosque’, they could have done it any time in the last few hundred years.”

    That would be the last two hundred years where the West had the most advanced weapons on the planet (and still do), and the Muslims had swords and camels I suppose? The two hundred years that saw the British Empire expand to cover whatever large % of the globe it covered, only to be eclipsed by an American empire with even greater military might and reach?

  34. @Arnald
    “I still maintain that with 1.6bn adherents, if they really wanted to ‘take over Western civilisation and turn England into a mosque’, they could have done it any time in the last few hundred years.”

    No. Because the British Empire had taken over large chunks of the world in the last few hundred years and the Brits were busy slaughtering Muslims in various parts of the world – Omdurman, Sepoy rebellion, etc. An ahistorical position.

  35. What about the Jewish legal system operating without English Law. Are they “coming over here undermining our way of life and our Christian traditions”?

  36. In general the Americans have a decently integrated Muslim population with a few exceptions. I’m of the view that the islamist terrorism thing is just another flavour of the month – like left wing terrorism in the 60s and 70s and the Anarchists before the Great War. Unhappy people finding a cause.

  37. What about the Jewish legal system operating without English Law. Are they “coming over here undermining our way of life and our Christian traditions”?

    This has been covered on here before, multiple times: nobody cares if private disputes are settled using a Jewish legal system, or a Sharia system, or any other means of arbitration, provided both parties agree to it.

  38. ken/Jim

    I can’t see any reason for deep seated resentment amongst the factions that are a bit fighty, can you?

    You know, exporting murder but as long it’s in brown countries.

  39. @Arnald

    On rabbinical law.

    In England, we can accept these things thanks to freedom of contract. Which should be true also of Sharia. Although I am leaning towards the view that it (Sharia) should not hold for family law matters and that we should see it as not a contractual issue.

  40. The terrorism is entirely secondary to the demographics. I don’t want to live under peaceful Islam either. This is about maintaining our native culture and people, but the years of racism rhetoric makes people too scared to say so.

    Please feel free to denounce me for racism. I really don’t give a tinker’s cuss.

  41. There’s little point talking about Islam as a religion. It’s a religion, plus a culture, plus a legal code, plus ……

    And they ain’t gonna bend.

  42. @Ken maybe you’re right (though I think not), but even if you are this is qualitatively and quantitively different.

    Sure, there are some bad Christians and hindus and atheists and what not, and we’ve always had terrorism. But Islamism is a different league.

    In the last few months we’ve had fourteen people shot dead in Cali, cartoonists, drinkers and pop concert-goers killed in Paris, people murdered on a beaches and museums and public places in Tunisia and Egypt and Turkey, a couple of hundred holidaymakers killed on a Russian jet, roughly a stabbing a week somewhere in Israel, hotel assaults in Africa and Asia, and numerous random multiple car-bombings and other murders across in the ‘muslim world’ which have collectively killed hundreds and probably thousands, and a hell of a lot of police time and money spent chasing these guys here, there and everywhere.

    If you think this is just going to fade away then while I hope you’re right I think you’re probably wrong. I’d be interested in the evidence for your theory?

    @Arnald – I enjoy watching you squirm as, for reasons known only yo yourself (it surely can’t be your ‘mates’), you defend adherents of an insane ideology that at its best is merely the 1300-year-old imaginings of a weirdo who for some reason didn’t like bacon, or razors (for shaving, anyway), and at its worst is behind 95% of the terrorism that the world has seen in recent years. That’s real dead people, real raped women, real terror you are helping (in your tiny way) to enable. I only hope you get to experience the joy of all this at close quarters and I actually think you will. The reason there’s been no Islamic conquest of the west is because we’re better at fighting than they are. But as the tech equals up and the demographics shift, and with the help of the fifth columnists and the traitorous fellow travellers such as yourself and Ironcock, I suspect that will change.

  43. Ian B

    No, I won’t say you are racist. I think the people of a country should be allowed to control their borders and decide who to admit. From a political science viewpoint there is a value to a coherent community/society.

    From a pure economic viewpoint I think that migrants who make it to these shores have shown determination and ability (and would thus admit them), but I understand that they would represent both a source of negative competition to the locals (especially the low skilled) and a net drain on community resources. All this without considering the possibility that they undermine the domestic political settlement.

  44. @Ken – speak to some muslim British women and ask if they’re happy with their treatment at the hands of the sharia ‘courts’.

    (Good fucking luck with that one.)

  45. @ken

    ‘No, I won’t say you are racist. I think the people of a country should be allowed to control their borders and decide who to admit. From a political science viewpoint there is a value to a coherent community/society. ‘

    I doubt he’d care if you did.

    Islam is not a race but a set of barking mad ideas followed by people of all races.

  46. We don’t want or need (any more) muslim immigration. It is not just terrorism, it’s not just demographics, it is also cultural change. And the cultural change that the presence of Islam brings can be insidious and gradual…halal meat in our food chain, erection of mega-mosques, the call to prayer, women with covered faces, refusal to meet hygiene/identity/security requirements when they conflict with Islamic dress, calls for national examinations to be moved when Ramadan falls at the same time, sexual abuse as in Rotherham and elsewhere, a tendency for the media to ‘self-censor’ when Islam is in the news…and so on and on.

  47. Dearieme-

    To be fair, all the Abrahamics work that way, and religions in general to various extents. They’re a social structure. Hence, we talk about Britain being “a Christian country”.

    To be obvious about it, this is very clearly true of Judaism, from a read of the Old Testament. Judaism is the religion, the culture, the legal code, the people…

    Islam and Judaism are, internally, very very similar. Christianity is more different because of the influence of Europeans. After all, Mohammed started his career attempting to be the next (and last) Jewish prophet, before turning on the Jews when they rejected his claim. Then, like the Jesus followers, he said, “lo, we turn to the Gentiles” and made his new cult non-ethnic rather than ethnocentric. But other than that, they are very similar.

  48. Take it easy on Arnald folks–his hatred of white people is likely keeping him up all night. For a man with a “delicate” balance to his mind that is dangerous. Anti-psychotics can only do so much.

    Que “my membership of Stormfront AND the KKK and the usual Ad Hominems ” that pass for argument across the stinking sands of Gurn-Sea.

  49. @Interested, of course some Muslim women are happy as second class citizens. (People are mad). And I did say that family law should perhaps be excluded from the freedom to contract.

  50. @Arnald
    “January 18, 2016 at 2:05 pm

    “But Brits in Spain aren’t actively hostile to Spanish culture”

    Yes they are. That’s where a healthy proportion of criminals go to hide. Yay white, british criminals are better than the muslamics with their rayguns!!!1

    I don’t think you can blame the UK for that. It is because Spain in the past took a lax attitude to British criminals
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/14/mark-lilley-costa-del-crime
    Amazingly criminals still think of Spain as a safe place 30 years after it changed.

  51. Most muslim women seem to be thoroughly happy being Muslim. The idea that they’re all only doing it because their men force them to, or something like that, is a result of Western bafflement at something we can’t really comprehend, because it is so alien.

  52. @AndrewC
    ““Arnald

    “But Brits in Spain aren’t actively hostile to Spanish culture”

    Yes they are. That’s where a healthy proportion of criminals go to hide.”

    Oh dear.

    Criminals flocked to Spain after the lapse of the extradition treaty between the UK and Spain in 1978. Spain rapidly got a ‘Costa del Crime’ reputation. However a new treaty was signed in 1985 and northern Cyprus became the favoured place for UK criminals to flee. Even that’s changed of late.

    Anyone keeping half an eye on world affairs would have known that. Mind you, I’m not surprised you’re 20+ years out of date having read some of your other views.

    Do try and keep up.

    Well said.

  53. Ian B

    Yes, and as with females from a traveller background there is a case for demanding that they undergo extensive education and rights training to undermine the patriarchal societies they come from as being unBritish or perhaps unModern. At the moment, we are treating their “culture” with kid gloves while extending all the other rights and priviledges of western society. I tend to the view that this basic contradiction is undesirable.

  54. IanB

    all the Abrahamics work that way, and religions in general to various extents. They’re a social structure. Hence, we talk about Britain being “a Christian country”.

    To be obvious about it, this is very clearly true of Judaism, from a read of the Old Testament. Judaism is the religion, the culture, the legal code, the people…

    Islam is unique among the Abrahamic religions in being a comprehensive theocratic political ideology. Most Jews and nearly all Christians recognise a secular religion-free space in their societies, while Islam does not. Yes, all religions involve a culture, a legal code, religious practice, etc; but only Islam is an ideology as well.

    Islam and Judaism are, internally, very very similar

    Perhaps; but they are also very, very different. Jews worship a personal/immanent deity; muslims worship an impersonal/transcendent deity. Judaism (like Christianity) has had a ‘reformation’; Islam has not. Islam is a theocratic political ideology; Judaism is not. Judaism is not a missionary religion; Islam seeks converts – by violence and conquest, if possible.

  55. Channel 4–a state owned tv channel– says there is nothing to worry about. On a chart that goes to 2030.

    30 years from now is 2046 by my count. 50 years is 2066. 265000 non-EU migrants arrived in the year to March 2014. If you believe the British state. Which I suggest you don’t. There is no count of how many of the additional 300,000 “EU” migrants are RoP. No credible count of illegals arriving either. It is not unreasonable to say 300,000 followers of the Prophet arrive each year. X30 Years=9 million/x50 Years=15 million. With the right to bring in their family members and no guarantee that they will move to two kids instead of three or more. They won’t if we are paying the bills.Plus 300,000 mostly native Brits migrate each year. And once enough voting bloc power is gained the borders will be opened as they see fit.

    Steve Moxon on illegals already here:

    ” The government estimate of a mere 600,000 illegals (which anyway doesn’t include dependants and non-workers, which would boost it to a million; and it;s now a decade out of date) is based on an invalid international comparison. All Professor Salt – for it was he, under Tony Blair – did to arrive at this estimate was to look at how the total number of legals compares with that of illegals in various other countries, and this, averaged out to a standard ratio was then used to multiply the UK total of legals to come up with a guess at the total of illegals.
    Of course, this is bogus, because the UK has a unique constellation of ‘pull’ factors for immigration – the international second language as our native tongue; a US-style open labour market yet EU-style welfare benefits; an enclave for every migrant group in the world to join; and the world’s most useless, nigh-on non-existent immigration system, where not only is it a piece of piss to get in, but there is no effort to chuck you out – or even to find you, and once here there is no effective ‘internal gateway’ to stop you getting benefits, an NI number, NHS treatment, etc. Anyone can simply overstay – even if it turns out you’ve got a serious criminal record. We are STILL waiting for the Gnome Orifice to set up a system where they even bother to count people in and out; let alone to take and to check their details. [Just WTF is the problem?!] So a more realistic estimate of the total number of illegals is more like TWO OR THREE MILLION.
    So much for debate and honesty about immigration. It still does not exist in any serious way here in Britain.
    The government-media-education uber-class continues to be hell-bent on perpetrating their utter hatred of all of the rest of us– ‘identity politics’ and ‘PC’, ”

    Arnald’s estimates are as useless as Arnald.

  56. The Jewish deity is no more personal than the Islamic one, in the Orthodox form. Both are rulebook religions, in which the definition of goodness is obeying the rules from a sacred text- dietary laws, clothing laws, social laws etc. Both follow the Semitic standards of endogamous tribal relationships and closeting of women. Both have no space for a “secular” part of society; everything is governed by the religious structure. Both feature lay priesthoods and textual legalism by Rabbis/Imams. Both are harshly suppressive of visual imagery, heavily ritualised, and profoundly puritanical. And so on.

    Christianity had an enormous external, European, “pagan” influence. When the Protestants showed up, they denounced Catholicism as pagan mysticism, and were correct. It’s that influence that made Christianity rather different to the Middle Eastern source, threw out most of the rulebook, had official priests (apostolic succession), “principles” rather than the rulebook and midrash, lots of imagery, a disguised pantheism (saints of X, Y and Z), lots of magic, and so on. Most importantly, only Christianity acknowledged a separate Church and State.

    Judaism’s “reformation” was simply the adoption of European attitudes to various degrees, due to the Jews mostly living in Christendom. In its basic form, Judaism looks much more like Islam than Christianity.

  57. Which by the way brings me back to my old argument that the Christian Protestant Reformation was basically an outbreak of fundamentalists trying to be more Jewish- hence no separation of Church and State, lay priesthood, iconoclasm, hyper-puritan social values, some of them even wanted to shift the Sabbath to Saturday…

  58. Interest

    I can’t be squirming when I’m very comfortable with my point of view, clearly supported by statistics.

    Ecks. Learn to fucking read. Or get someone to read it aloud for you. You are wrong.

  59. IanB

    The Yahweh is much more personal than Allah: Yahweh speaks directly to some of his people, while Allah does not speak directly even to Mohammed but uses the Angel Jibril.

    There is a much larger secular space in Israel than in any Muslim country.

    And, however you regard it, the jewish ‘reformation’ has occurred.

    We are not talking about “basic” judaism or islam (though there are significant differences even in the basics – see above) but how these faiths behave in the world today.

  60. Which by the way brings me back to my old argument that the Christian Protestant Reformation was basically an outbreak of fundamentalists trying to be more Jewish- hence no separation of Church and State, lay priesthood, iconoclasm, hyper-puritan social values, some of them even wanted to shift the Sabbath to Saturday…

    What did the world — never mind, scholars of Reformation — do before you arrived with your ‘theories’?

  61. I’ll go one further.

    Arnald lies in bed in utter anticipation for the day when his side wins and he can line the likes of us against a wall.

    Arnald is a typical leftist lickspittle – confident that he’s doing good – whilst dreaming of butchering his way through the evil enemy. If ever given the chance he’ll enthusiastically add to the 200 Million bodycount of Socialism in the 20th Century.

  62. Theo-

    I see the point on “personal”, but it’s not the same as the Christian’s personal relationship with God. Yahweh chooses a few prophets to give orders to the people and kings (etc) of Israel, but there is no personal relationship as characterised in Christianity.

    Modern Israel is no guide, since it is modelled on European cultural standards to a large degree, which the Jews learned in Europe.

    Pre-“reformation” Judaism is an extant and very much alive form, which is gaining ground compared to “Modernised” Jews, not least due to birth rates. I believe it’s the case that hassidim now outnumber modernised Jews in New York for instane. The memorah lit every year at the White House at Hannukah is for instance sponsored by Chabad Lubavitch, which is as Old Testament as can be. (Many members even believe their last rebbe was the Messiah).

    Talking of Hannukah, when Europeans are celebrating Yule, a pagan festival with Christian gloss over it, which brings light to the bleak midwinter, Jews are celebrating Hannukah, which celebrates the success of a bloody pogrom against “modernised” Hellenistic Jews by the Maccabees, and in which you see the template for jihad.

  63. What did the world — never mind, scholars of Reformation — do before you arrived with your ‘theories’?

    Stumbled around in the darkness of ignorance. I am like a bright glowy thing in the stygian abyss. Kind of thing.

  64. By the way does anyone think Ironman might just be a pen name for Frances Coppola.

    I noticed he didn’t invade the weekend rant post with his / her normal frothing bile…

  65. Arnald: “Ecks. Learn to fucking read. Or get someone to read it aloud for you. You are wrong.”

    No–You are wrong. Or more to the point –a conman and liar with stats.

    Of course your bullshit mates at the state-owned broadcaster Channel 4 are going to peddle “nothing-to-worry-about” stats. Like you they are peddling a false and deceitful line.

    JohnnydubB: “Arnald is a typical leftist lickspittle – confident that he’s doing good – whilst dreaming of butchering his way through the evil enemy”

    Arnald is a snide little informer. He’d rat you out so someone else could shoot you in the back of the head. But he wouldn’t have the balls to pull the trigger on a cap pistol.

    Far from dispensing death –if he and his leftist pals succeed in facilitating the triumph of islam over here–he and those leftist buddies will be leading the line to the block/the crane/the big wall knockdown or the “high-diving-without-a-pool” championships. It is a shame they can’t put him through all of them.

    The brutal butchery of the left will be about the only thing left to enjoy if it does happen tho’.

  66. The West is stuck on stupid. Muslims are taught to hate us, to deceive us, and to kill us.

    ‘But it really is our gaff and our rules.’

    While they wait for the caliphate.

  67. @Arnald – You wouldn’t know an unvarnished fact if it made you bend over and fucked you on a Friday. You’ll still be bleating on about Islamophobia as they start sawing at your neck, you loon.

    @Ken – I take your point, but I doubt that it’s possible to dictate in the medium to long term which bits of life sharia can touch. That is, I don’t think your suggestion of excluding family law works.

    And yes, fine, some women like it: what about those who don’t? Arnald would see them condemned to lives of servitude by himself condemning as ‘racist’ or ‘bigoted’ anyone who questions it, and pointing that white men are nasty sometimes, too. But then he’s a follower and a true believer in socialism, the most evil ideology ever to stalk the earth. What’s your excuse?!

    Also, yes, I’m well aware of the actions of the various historical nutjobs – I said I was.

    On that, a few points:

    1. The total death toll from those ten incidents seems (rough count) to be about that on 7/7. Less than half the number who died in Paris on one night in December. Fewer than Mumbai. Fewer than the recent Russian airliner bomb. Fewer than Nairobi. An order of magnitude lower than 9/11. I can go on, if you like, but we’ll be here all night. Take out a couple of them and it’s less than Charlie Hebdo.

    2. I don’t live in 1894. Thus I am not terribly concerned with the actions of Parisian anarchists of that vintage, other than as an historical artefact.

    3. Unless I misunderstand you, you mentioned the technology the nutters of yesteryear had as though that was a positive? A better thing to consider is the technology that the nutcases of the very near future might have. It’s now in the public domain that they have converted A2A missiles to SAM capability. Not to forget that they have much simpler ways of bringing down aircraft, too. Most airports in Europe are on flat land, with housing within a couple of km. Guess the effective range of a GPMG? Plot up on a flat roof outside Lyon airport, not caring whether you live or die (so happy to expose your position), and it would be an absolute piece of piss to shoot down a big, slow moving aircraft on final approach, especially if you’ve spent the last couple of years in Syria getting familiar with the weapon.

    Luckily, we’re not letting into the EU anyone with close quarter battle experience and plenty of range time on heavy machine guns. Ah…

    But luckily, they haven’t got the weapons. Ah…

    Well, at least it’s impossible to get those kinds of weapons into Europe. Ah…

    4. Most (again, skim reading) of those people had a cause which could eventually be met in some way, or which had not much popular support. We can never live as free people under Islam, and there are tens of thousands of British muslims who support not only the supremacy of that ‘religion’ but the murderous means currently being employed to bring it about.

    Depending on your age, brave men standing between you and these fuckers may give you the chance to slip off this mortal coil without seeing it happen. Your kids? less likely. Your grandkids? No chance, unless we wise up. Seriously, horrible as it sounds, it is going to come down to the age old question of kill or be killed, on an industrial scale. I sincerely hope that decent muslims don’t get caught up in it, but I think they are likely to have to start behaving a lot more like Christians do in Saudi along the way.

  68. @ Arnald

    ‘I still maintain that with 1.6bn adherents, if they really wanted to ‘take over Western civilisation and turn England into a mosque’, they could have done it any time in the last few hundred years.’

    You maintain this because you’re a fucking idiot, with no knowledge of history, and no understanding of human nature (hence your political beliefs I suppose).

    The reason they didn’t try this before is because we had superior weaponry, and if they tried it they were going to get royally fucked. You can’t take on HMS Hood, or a Type 42 destroyer with a dhow, or even a hundred dhows. We still have that advantage, just. We are losing in the manpower stakes, though.

    I would not be remotely surprised to see raiding parties on the beaches of southern Europe this summer, or one summer soon. Who’s going to stop them? The Spanish coast guard? The Portuguese navy? Er…

  69. The link to the C4/factcheck posted above is intresting because of what it leaves out.
    There is a big demographic bulge of baby boomers currently swelling the ranks of the locals.
    By 2050 the vast majority of these will be dead so the non-indigenes will form a larger proportion of the population.

  70. @Ian B

    ‘Most muslim women seem to be thoroughly happy being Muslim. The idea that they’re all only doing it because their men force them to, or something like that, is a result of Western bafflement at something we can’t really comprehend, because it is so alien.’

    How many of the ones who aren’t do you know, and get to talk to? Or even see?

    @ Ken

    ‘Yes, and as with females from a traveller background there is a case for demanding that they undergo extensive education and rights training to undermine the patriarchal societies they come from as being unBritish or perhaps unModern. At the moment, we are treating their “culture” with kid gloves while extending all the other rights and priviledges of western society. I tend to the view that this basic contradiction is undesirable.’

    Hmmm, yes, except that no-one ‘demands’ anything much of travellers, beyond some press release and a government report. The police can scarcely get on to their sites – it used to be because they were scared of being beaten up, but now it’s because they’re scared of being beaten up and then accused of ‘racism’. (Tyson Fury – his career is now over because of his remarks about gays, isn’t it? Except, oops, no apparently it’s not. Hierarchy matters, you see. The poofs just take it up the arse – they’re not ‘Irish’.)

    *Privileges*

  71. How many of the ones who aren’t do you know, and get to talk to? Or even see?

    I’m just going on the general impression from the various sources we all have, which do not seem to present any evidence that Islamic women are any less enthusiastic about their culture than Islamic men.

    As to “education”, I doubt it will have much effect. Human beings are primarily motivated socially by the desire to be a good person. “Goodness” being whatever your community considers to be good. Trying to teach somebody not to be good is useless, you may as well sit Ironman in classroom and tell him to approve of kiddie pr0n. It just is not going to have an effect.

    This is why the only means of breaking people in this way is to expose them to your community and its definitions of goodness on a constant, everyday basis, while isolating them psychologically and in terms of peer group from their own. Which multiculturalism actively works against.

  72. For those keeping count of the RoP, here’s the last 30 day’s tally.

    A quick precis:

    During this time period, there were 159 Islamic attacks in 27 countries, in which 1700 people were killed and 1731 injured.

    This was 2015’s tally:

    During this time period, there were 2853 Islamic attacks in 53 countries, in which 27578 people were killed and 26133 injured.

  73. ” Which, to be fair, is pretty much how the Mormon areas in the US are.”
    Maybe in the 19th century. Now, ‘Mormon areas’ have the same laws as the surrounding territory. Mormons may express their preferences (such as no alcohol) by democratic means such as voting, but now there are just a few isolated rural communities run by fringe nutters that attempt to impose their version of Mormonism on all residents.

  74. So “all the Abrahamics work that way” except the Christians. And though Islam has much in common with antique Judaism, Jews don’t propose to murder apostates, do they?

    Your argument is weak.

  75. Hate laws were imposed to ensure that the whites did not , ould not, prevail.
    In due course the land will be populated with tax paying foreigners and you all will be a memory.
    Your government doesn’t like you.

  76. Dearieme-

    Both Jews and Christians have murdered apostates in the past. You could get burned at the steak just for disagreeing about the Trinity. Judaism invented killing for God. As with the Maccabees I mentioned above.

  77. @interested. The technology point is simply that it is easier to kill many more people with today’s tech than it was over a century ago – so numbers are difficult – note how much more vulnerable bigwigs were back then. My point about the anarchists is simply they represented the idiot thesis of the day, much like Islamic dickheadiness today. I tend to see it at that level rather than a clash of civilizations. A century ago Islam was in retreat as it was replaced by the flavour of the month. It is primitive and crap.

  78. “Well, if chip shops and pubs are British Culture…

    Seriously? Chip shops and pubs? Is that the best you can do?

    “You really believe there’s an organised plot to take over Europe ‘through demographics’?
    Are they deliberately forcing down European birth rates, using their muslamic ray-guns?
    Are they stealing all the white babies under their burkhas and indoctrinating them to like bright coloured fabrics and turmeric?”

    Again, is this serious? Or are you just a moron? It doesn’t have to be a deliberate takeover. But that is what will eventually happen given the way birthrates are going, and the aggressive attitude of so many Muslims.

    (Theo said: “It is not just terrorism, it’s not just demographics, it is also cultural change.” Cultural change was part of what I was referring when I talked about demographics. Three Muslims demanding something won’t get far. Three million demanding it are a lot more powerful. And 13 million…).

  79. “our gaff”? And where do you live Tim? Of course you will not tell us. It’s my ” gaff” but not yours.

  80. You can require muslims to obey the law, but you can’t really integrate them. They ghettoize themselves, and they maintain their muslim identity over a european one. A few years ago the chief law officer of one of the northern european countries, I can’t recall which one, said that once his country becomes majority Muslim a few years down the line, the country will just have to live under sharia. Because they’re a democracy, you see, and the majority makes the rules, and decides what rights citizens have. So the muslims will be the ones saying “Our gaff, our rules”. I don’t think the native europeans are going to like it.

  81. It’s such a big one, ain’t it, becoming like ‘us’. When we don’t really know what we are. You’ve got little Britainers who want to string up all brown people, you’ve got Guardianistas who want to hug everyone (apart from Tories) – you’ve got rebellious Scots, who want to fuck off and create some Socialist Utopia, you’ve got Northern Irish Unionists who are just about as religiously fundamentalist as any Islamist you will import, and of course the Sinn Feiners who have pretty much fuck all in common with the jihadis, but who would engage in an ‘enemy of my enemy is my friend’ bum chumming session anyway.

    But sure, come over here, and make sure you ‘integrate’ with at least one of these groups, and you’ll be just fucking fine.

  82. They seem to have managed it alright in Singapore. As I understand it after the race riots in the 60s (??) LKY decided that all social housing had to have ethnic demographics that reflected the country, to force people to live with one another and not in their own communities shut off from the rest. If say a Malay wants to move to a new social housing (HDB) home they have to swap with another Malay family. That’s how I had it explained to me there anyway.

    Singapore is a little city state mind so maybe it’s not doable in a proper country.

  83. ‘You can require muslims to obey the law, but you can’t really integrate them.’

    Zactly.

    Muslims will always be carrying a book that says to kill everyone else. The West has no paradigm for it, so fails to comprehend it, and the obvious implication. They will kill you. The ONLY question is, “When?”

    It’s all laid out for all to see, yet they don’t see.

  84. There’s around 40,000 Muslims in New Zealand, or about 1% of the population. I’m not aware of any Islamic violence there.

  85. “There’s around 40,000 Muslims in New Zealand, or about 1% of the population. I’m not aware of any Islamic violence there.”

    There’s not enough of them yet. Wait until there’s more of them. Then the mild (non-Maori) Kiwis will be an easy takeover.

  86. @ Matthew L

    There is a growing phenomenon of Maori joining up, but this probably reinforces Ken’s point (with which I don’t entirely disagree – I just don’t think it’s enough) that there is some level of lost dickeads looking for something to latch onto.

    (We ought to examine why they don’t latch onto mainstream NZ culture, and the answer there is probably part grievance – they believe they’ve been fucked over by the white man, mostly because the white man keeps apologising for it – part boredom and lack of stuff to do, and part dickeadishness).

    But at one per cent, in a country which is less tolerant of bullshit (albeit still too tolerant) than we are, and where many of the people still believe in NZ, as an idea and a country, is not enough for any bold action, and the radical internationalist nutters have bigger fish to fry.

    Finally, the bulk of their Muslim population is from the less extreme, less terrorist end of things.

  87. IanB

    Both Jews and Christians have murdered apostates in the past. You could get burned at the steak* just for disagreeing about the Trinity. Judaism invented killing for God. As with the Maccabees I mentioned above.

    Yes; but what the religions teach today is what is relevant to the modern world. Jews and Christians no longer kill apostates. Moreover, killing apostates was entirely contrary to the teachings of Christianity’s founder, whereas it remains an integral part of Islam and was taught by Mohammed.

    * well done rather than rare, I assume!

  88. “Finally, the bulk of their Muslim population is from the less extreme, less terrorist end of things.”

    And so it is for nearly all of the rest of the Muslim population, anywhere.

  89. @Bloke in Malta

    The prize cock Ironman has long accused people on here, myself included, of ‘racism’ because we don’t like Islam in its extreme forms.

    No amount of explaining to him that there are black, white, yellow and brown Muslims helps him to understand the idiocy of this.

    I think he probably thinks that all Muslims are from Pakistan, or that this ‘Islamophobia’ is actually just a cipher for a hatred of brown people.

    Again, no amount of explaining that there is no racial difference between Pakistani Muslims and Indian Hindus or Sikhs, with whom no-one has much of a problem (outside your actual racists) helps him either.

    So I have just resorted to mocking him for his stupidity, because it’s fun.

    I think, with your “Little Britain” remark you may be cut from the same cloth.

    However, to give you the benefit of the doubt, what we don’t like about the more aggressive end of Islam is that it is *uniquely* populated by people who want to kill us or make us submit to them.

    If I wanted to submit to Islam I would become Muslim, and I might even move to one of the many Muslim countries around the world, where I could practise my bizarre belief that ‘God’ wants me to refrain from eating sausages, dress my wife in a sack and grow a beard but not a moustache in peace.

    But I don’t want those things – I like sausages, looking at women and being clean shaven or a bit stubbly on lazy days if the mood takes me, rather than trying to remember what an invisible figure told a man in a far off land 1300 years ago he would like me to do with my whiskers.

    Of course I have differences with the Welsh, and Scousers, but the day they demand I eat nothing but leeks and have sex with sheep/grow a curly perm and go on the rob AND blow me up for deciding not to is the day I start viewing them differently than with a mere raised eyebrow.

    BTW, Malta is a bit close to Africa and the various hotbeds for you to be this complacent, IMO.

  90. the bulk of their Muslim population is from the less extreme, less terrorist end of things.

    ‘Extreme’ is a relative term. All observant muslims are extreme by contrast with western norms.

  91. [QUOTE]It is, of course, entirely possible to integrate Muslims into western European countries and cultures.

    The important bit being to attempt to integrate, not to attempt to have a multicultural series of ghettoes.

    That is, our gaff, our rules, and sure, you can believe in any flavour of the sky fairy you like. But it really is our gaff and our rules[/QUOTE]

    He doesn’t sound so stupid Tim.

    It is our gaff and rules until they outnumber us, and then it is their gaff and their rules.

  92. Maybe in the 19th century. Now, ‘Mormon areas’ have the same laws as the surrounding territory. Mormons may express their preferences (such as no alcohol) by democratic means such as voting, but now there are just a few isolated rural communities run by fringe nutters that attempt to impose their version of Mormonism on all residents.

    Yes, for the large part. But you still find in some towns/districts that the LDS owns all the major businesses and the mayor, police chief, and judge all occupy senior positions in the local church. If there is some sort of dispute, it gets solved according to the church’s wishes, which is not necessarily the same as what would occur outside.

  93. Tyson Fury – his career is now over because of his remarks about gays, isn’t it? Except, oops, no apparently it’s not.

    This is probably because boxing is international, an individual sport, and major sponsors don’t try to present a link between a champion thug and soft, cuddly values. If Tyson Fury was a footballer and everything else remained the same, he’d be in trouble. But being a boxer, he’ll still get to punch large Ukranians in the face regardless of his views.

  94. Finally, the bulk of their Muslim population is from the less extreme, less terrorist end of things.

    Indeed, I can’t see Sonny Bill destroying much other than defences.

  95. Beards aren’t compulsory, tends only to be those that visit mosques, which, like ‘Christians, most don’t with any strict adherence.

    As the New Testament says, women should cover their heads,

    The order is: God the Father, God the Son, the man or husband, and the woman or wife. The veil or covering on the head of a believing Corinthian wife showed that she was under the authority of her husband, and therefore under submission to God.

    They have to in Sark, when attending their version of parliament. That and feudalism.

  96. Arnald’s stock in trade consists in seizing on any tiny lacuna in any argument and ignoring the large man with the machete, AK and suicide belt in the other corner.

    Again, it’s not the peaceful non murderous, semi secular muslims we (or I) am, concerned with.

    Women have been murdered for being improperly dressed in the muslim world; you will rarely see anyone even tut in any church at a woman going in without wearing a hat, but if you do please let me know and I will certainly condemn that, too.

  97. Interested

    I’m using the argument that because one interpretation of one holy book and scripture states that during war, war crimes are permitted then all that worship within that religion will adhere to that.

    Just like women not wearing hats or blokes with their beards.

    The argument on this blog is that Islam is evil. It isn’t, it’s wankers who want to find any excuse to subjugate others, regardless of race or religion.

    As ken has stated elsewhere, it’s the current magnet for nutters and criminals. The rest of the scaremongering about invading hordes is abject paranoia.

  98. “The argument on this blog is that Islam is evil. It isn’t, it’s wankers who want to find any excuse to subjugate others, regardless of race or religion.”

    Well there certainly appears to be a lot of those attached to it then isn’t there?

    Look this ‘Well its not REAL Islam, which is cuddly and friendly’ argument just doesn’t fly. It doesn’t matter what you call the beliefs of all the ‘Islamic’ nutters around the world, you can call it ‘Lancashire Hotpot’ if you like, what matters is what they believe and what they want to do. And they want submitted to them, or dead, simple as that.

    And if the ‘Cuddly Islam’ people (if such exists) want to no longer be associated with the nutters then they have to chuck the nutters out. But they don’t, either because they secretly rather agree with them, or because they’re afraid of them.

    Where is the schism in Islam between the nutters and the ‘moderates’? There isn’t one, because the ‘moderates’ actually agree with the nutters aims, just are a bit squeamish about the methods. Thats all. They all want a world caliphate, its just Abdul in the corner shop doesn’t want to cut anyone’s head off to get it. But he’s not prepared to shop Aziz down the mosque who is getting a bit shouty about Jews and Jihad and talking about going to Syria. That would mean sticking his head above the parapet, and potentially getting it chopped off. So he says nothing, its easier.

    Look, I know this is how it works. A good friend of mine (white) is quite tight with the Muslim guys at his local curry house. He does work for them, spends time with them, gets to hear what going on. One of the guys is getting radicalised. He’s gone from being a normal guy to the beardy jihad warrior type, spouting off in the mosque about all manner of stuff. Have they done anything about it? No. Have they confronted him and told him thats not acceptable Islamic behaviour, and if he continues he must leave the mosque? No. He’s on his little path of radicalisation and they’re not going to stop him. And this is a sleepy little town in the back end of nowhere. What it would be like in a place like Luton or Leicester would be 100 times worse. More people encouraging the radicals, even less prepared to say anything against them.

  99. “because the ‘moderates’ actually agree with the nutters aims”

    Toss, where’s you evidence? If it’s that poll that gets quoted (from the Sun!) – then this.

  100. @Arnald

    ‘The argument on this blog is that Islam is evil. It isn’t, it’s wankers who want to find any excuse to subjugate others, regardless of race or religion.’

    No, I think the argument on this blog is that Islam is insane, and anyone who takes it seriously is a bit potty. But beyond that, that it’s the only current major ideology which is likely to blow us up or shoot us down for not subscribing to it. Though give your side enough time…

  101. The bastard who made up Islam, who pretended some god was giving him divine revelation in order to control his followers, was evil so why wouldn’t the cult he founded be evil? Many Muslims are prepared to compromise their religion in order to live a quiet life, but they won’t condemn or take action against those who live out the full Islamic life as exemplified by Mohammed, i.e. murdering, thieving, enslaving, raping and kiddie fiddling.

  102. Arnald: “The argument on this blog is that Islam is evil. It isn’t, it’s wankers who want to find any excuse to subjugate others, regardless of race or religion.”

    The creed you support has murdered 150 million and you are still on here peddling it.

    And in any case –as has been explained to your blank-wall fuckwittedness countless times –when push comes to shove “ordinary” muslims will do what their leaders tell ’em to. The same as “ordinary” anything. Countless times ordinary people didn’t want any trouble–but trouble is what they got–cos it is the psychopathic cunts at the top who call the shots not the little people.

  103. “where’s you evidence?”

    Actions dear boy actions. Or rather lack of actions. If ‘Moderate’ Muslims were opposed (really opposed, as in ‘We find this abhorrent, its making a travesty of our peaceful religion, and we must do something’ opposed) then they would have done something by now.

    Point to me to one group of Muslims who have broken away from a radical mosque and set up their own and denounced the old one. One group who have managed to take back a radicalised mosque and thrown out the radicals as ‘Not real Muslims’. Where are the excommunications? The fatwas denouncing the radicals (by name) as not Islamic? Where is the schism in Islam between the peaceful adherents and the radicals? There isn’t one.

    Actions speak louder than words, or responses to opinion polls. And with their actions so called moderate Muslims are telling us what they think of the radicals. They may dislike them for making their lives tougher, and be a bit squeamish about the methods, but deep down they don’t dislike or disagree with them enough to excise them from their ‘Peaceful’ religion.

    Revealed preferences beat stated views every day.

  104. Jim

    You’re talking tosh.

    Just google it. It’s all over everywhere.

    Look, here’s a fatwa

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/indian-imams-issue-joint-fatwa-against-is-call-it-un-islamic/story-GcujukruNuIcPFz19vcp5K.html

    And here’s 34 Muslim nations against Daesh

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/34-muslim-nations-finally-get-together-set-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-1533357

    Demonstrations are happening.

    Muslim leaders proclaiming against Daesh.

    http://www.khaleejtimes.com/region/saudi-arabia/rise-against-daesh-muslims-told

    Polls (they mean something when it’s as stark as this)

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

    Tell you what though, Jim, just stay stewing in your closed mind.

  105. So islamists are asked if they support outright murders and loonies and they say no. Or more accurately ONE particular bunch of loonies–ISIS–who has enemies within the ranks of violent RoP loonies in general. The polls don’t say how many are against violence altogether–just how many don’t like ISIS.

    Such a comfort.

    Had 100% of human beings been polled in Sept 1939–“Do you support WW2 and is it a good idea?” WTF do you think the vast majority would have replied. Yet WW2 was not cancelled. Because even if these surveys are accurate it is of little importance what “ordinary” people think. They will do–push to shove–what their fucking leaders tell them to.

    And of course here are a few more polls for you to chew on:

    ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

    NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
    http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

    Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
    http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

    People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
    http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

    YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
    http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
    62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
    A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
    (Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
    About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

    Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
    30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
    45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
    43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
    http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

    Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
    49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
    49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
    39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
    http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

    Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
    34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
    http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

    16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is “acceptable”.
    http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml

    Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
    28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
    http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

    ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
    27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html

    Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

    ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

    Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
    37% believe Jews in Britain are a “legitimate target”.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

    Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).
    http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

    Pew Research (2013): 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh).
    http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

    PCPO (2014): 89% of Palestinians support Hamas and other terrorists firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/poll-89-of-palestinians-support-jihad-terror-attacks-on-israely

    Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
    http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/

    BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent “mainstream Islam”.
    http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

    Palestinian Center for Political Research (2015): 74% of Palestinians support Hamas terror attacks.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/support-for-hamas-skyrockets-following-war-poll-shows/

    Pew Research (2014): 47% of Bangladeshi Muslims says suicide bombings and violence are justified to “defend Islam”. 1 in 4 believed the same in Tanzania and Egypt. 1 in 5 Muslims in the ‘moderate’ countries of Turkey and Malaysia.
    http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

    The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 19% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified in order to make Sharia the law in the United States (66% disagree).
    http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf

    The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the “global Jihad (64% disagree).
    http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf

    The Sun (2015: Following Nov. 2015 attacks in Paris, 1 in 4 young Muslims in Britain (and 1 in 5 overall) said they sympathize with those who fight for ISIS.
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6758207/1-in-5-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-for-jihadis-in-poll.html

    See also: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Terrorism) for further statistics on Islamic terror.

    al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and Islamic State (ISIS)

    Pew Research (2007): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (27% can’t make up their minds). Only 58% reject al-Qaeda outright.

  106. So islamists are asked if they support outright murders and loonies and they say no. Or more accurately ONE particular bunch of loonies–ISIS–who has enemies within the ranks of violent RoP loonies in general. The polls don’t say how many are against violence altogether–just how many don’t like ISIS.

    Such a comfort.

    Had 100% of human beings been polled in Sept 1939–“Do you support WW2 and is it a good idea?” WTF do you think the vast majority would have replied. Yet WW2 was not cancelled. Because even if these surveys are accurate it is of little importance what “ordinary” people think. They will do–push to shove–what their fucking leaders tell them to.

    This comment will appear again with an absolute shitload of links to other polls that not so sanguine.

    I can’t wait all day for Tim to moderate them so is the comment first without the links.

  107. Where are the excommunications? The fatwas denouncing the radicals (by name) as not Islamic?

    Excommunication as such is a Christian, mainly Catholic concept: for theological reasons the pope never excommunicated IRA terrorists. I suppose the Ulama apply similar criteria to takfir.

    Fatwas there are. Here down (scroll down) is British one against IS.

  108. One group who have managed to take back a radicalised mosque and thrown out the radicals as ‘Not real Muslims’.

    There’s more than one example of radicals being ejected from mosques. Notorious ejectees include Abdullah el-Faisal and Zacarias Moussaoui.

  109. ‘The argument on this blog is that Islam is evil. It isn’t, it’s wankers who want to find any excuse to subjugate others, regardless of race or religion.’

    Islam teaching people to kill those who are not like them is NOT evil? Considering it evil is an excuse to subjugate? What a strange non sequitur.

  110. Whether Muslims support violence or not (or whether they say they do to a pollster) is irrelevant. The issue is, who will they vote for in 50 years time, when their numbers are much bigger? As an earlier commentator said, once they have a majority, it’s their gaff and their rules.

    I don’t want my grandkids to have to live in a Muslim country. Perhaps that will never happen, but frankly it’s not worth the risk.

  111. Even before they’re a majority things will be getting bad. It’s getting worse and worse for Jews in Europe. I wouldn’t want to be gay in 2050.

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